From how you seem to view or class this ripple effect, it would classify a situation where some factor(s) went onto having an outward rippling effect as a result to why you have many of thoughts you do about diet at the moment, which you seem to use as justification of not including a dietary source of B12.

Well you do and you don't, you recommend eggs and supplements which would suggest that there is nothing wrong with our condition if we are able to absorb them from foods and synthetic lab made supplements. There is nothing natural about relying synthetic supplements for vital essential nutrients which can be easily obtained from dietary sources. If you have an absorption condition that warrants supplements and injections sure, but if its just because you choose not to consume foods with B12 then its nothing to do with conditions or rippling effects once again.

If you don't want to obtain B12 from dietary sources for ethical reasons, health reasons etc, then i can more than understand that, i do myself from supplement. But i don't try to make out a raw diet is the natural way we have lived in the past because there is not one part of the population who has followed these relatively new types of strict raw vegan diets. Heavily vegetarian parts of the world such as India have always included small amounts of animal foods to maintain B12.

Im not even arguing for animal foods here as i supplement myself, but you cannot claim raw or a vegan diet is a naturally nutritionally complete diet when it isn't. Now we can make as many excuses for the reason why that is, but it doesn't change the fact any.

Anyway, we are just repeating now. Ill finish with what ive said above and leave it to an each to our own John. As always ive enjoyed the convo.



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2012 06:07PM by powerlifer.

OK, now I understand why you don’t get it and I have a very simple explanation that should make it clear to you, but it’s the weekend and I might not get back to you until Monday. In the meantime, you might find it an interesting exercise to see if you can figure it out before Monday. All you have to do is a little research on the Ripple Effect. Here’s a hint - it has to do with what’s called the Causal Loop where Effects become Causes. If you can’t figure it out by Monday, don’t be discouraged as this takes more thought than most people are Willing to put forth. However, I know you have in you to figure this out provided you’re Willing to put for the effort.

Peace and Love..........John

Decent information on Vitamin B12 for vegans from The Vegan Society.

[www.vegansociety.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2012 09:48AM by powerlifer.

From the article..

In choosing to use fortified foods or B12 supplements, vegans are taking their B12 from the same source as every other animal on the planet -micro-organisms -without causing suffering to any sentient being or causing environmental damage. Vegans using adequate amounts of fortified foods or B12 supplements are much less likely to suffer from B12 deficiency than the typical meat eater.

Regardless of the skewed vegan perspective when it comes to the reasoning once again, the vegan society comes to the conclusion that a dietary source is necessary i.e supplementation or fortified foods if you are vegan, which is all i was saying all along.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2012 12:03PM by powerlifer.

yeah, but you say "if you are vegan" as if it's a special circumstance for vegans, when EVERYONE is supplemented who eats food from the market.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> yeah, but you say "if you are vegan" as if it's a
> special circumstance for vegans, when EVERYONE is
> supplemented who eats food from the market.

But there are B12 sources including ethically obtained ones such as John pointed out. So it is a special circumstance when following a diet void of an essential nutrient you have to either supplement or consume fortified foods.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2012 02:16PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Utopian Life Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > yeah, but you say "if you are vegan" as if it's
> a
> > special circumstance for vegans, when EVERYONE
> is
> > supplemented who eats food from the market.
>
> But there are B12 sources including ethically
> obtained ones such as John pointed out. So it is a
> special circumstance when following a diet void of
> an essential nutrient you have to either
> supplement or consume fortified foods.

--------------
We already pointed out that the animals who are being used to provide these foods are fed a supplemented diet, so those products are, in essence, fortified with B12 or "supplemented," if you ask me.

Thats not true that all animals are fed fortified foods, plenty are grown on their respective natural diets. The B12 content of animal foods also doesn't come from supplemented diet.

Were treading into a zone here that's against forum policy though so ill finish that all my point was that vegans need to supplement B12 from some source whether supplements or fortified foods it has to come from somewhere.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2012 02:38PM by powerlifer.

Yeah, and my point was that omnivores need to do the same, or else somehow ensure that the unsupplemented animals that they're taking secretions from contain B12.

All animal foods contain some B12 through bacterial synthesis. Although a good diet can increase the B12 content further.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2012 03:26PM by powerlifer.

Powerlifer-->Considering the amount of time i have been putting into contributing to this forum(pretty much everyday) for NOTHING over the years, the effort i have put into trying to help others again saddens me.


Power, that's not technically correct. You advertise your website for free in nearly every post you make . Except in this thread where you conveniently left it out to make the above point.

NGU Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Powerlifer-->Considering the amount of time i have
> been putting into contributing to this
> forum(pretty much everyday) for NOTHING over the
> years, the effort i have put into trying to help
> others again saddens me.
>
>
> Power, that's not technically correct. You
> advertise your website for free in nearly every
> post you make . Except in this thread where you
> conveniently left it out to make the above point.

What my vegan blog that i link in my posts ? Which i have made no PROFIT what so ever from in the time ive had it, only a loss. A site that gets about 300 hits a month. The google ads on it didn't even cover the domain reg for 2 years lol. But my blog was my creative outlet for a while.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2012 08:23PM by powerlifer.

I am in agreement with much of what John Rose wrote about in the thread, about there being the science of raw foods and the art of using it to heal yourself. Also the ripple effect is a nice way to talk about the adaptations a body makes while eating a SAD diet, and those effects need to be healed and undone once a healthful lifestyle is engaged.

What is true about eat an all raw diet is that the diet is challenging, because there is little social support, there is the healing that has to take place to undo all the adaptations to the SAD diet, and things don't go the way we would like them to. What is required is a lot of patience, listening to what the body is saying, paying attention to what your body's response is to the foods you are eating, and going at a pace that makes sense for your body. Many people can convert to 100% raw overnight, but often those people can't stick to the diet because they are ignoring what their body's are saying, plus they really haven't done the emotional/spiritual work necessary to live in a less dense body.

Many people have not been able to stay raw on the raw diet, and I don't doubt that they gave it a good try. Its not that they didn't do it the "right" way, or that these people are weak, but their expectations of the healing process was not based on any real experience, but often just projections of how long it should take to adapt and be raw. Its takes quite a bit of dedication to remain on the raw path while making the raw foods diet work for you. Getting raw foods to work takes being in touch with the inner guide or the inner guru, and getting internal guidance for getting through the various difficulties. Getting support from other's can also be helpful. One of the things that has always helped me it to seek out people who are thriving on the raw diet, and see what they are doing that I am not doing, to see if these things can make a difference.

I have now been 100% raw for nearly 11 years, and I am still loving it.

Good post prana

Its been said u dont do 811 anymore
And also u take some elive sup

Can u briefly talk about that ?

I haven't been doing 811 for a year and a half. I am eating more fat than before, and more of the store bought prepared raw foods, and I am taking some supplements - effective microorganisms, drinking spring water that has been charged with subtle energies. I am still eating a lot of fruits and salads, but also including more seeds and avocados.

Prana im curious how you charge your spring water with energy if you could explain. I put glass bottles out in the sun (when we have sun here lol) before i bring them in thats about it

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

I use a MEOW kettle. You can make your own kettle, there is even a YouTube on how to make one, plus magnetite sand can often be found at beaches and creeks.

cool this is a vid i found .. is this something along the lines of what you use>? can i use my glass bottles in it instead of plastic .. as i collect an store my water in glass ? id rather not use plastic if i can help it

[www.youtube.com]

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

A glass water container would work fine. Check this page for some pictures/ideas of how to make a simple meow kettle: MEOW Kettle.

You can also charge other beverages in this device, assuming the beverage won't go bad in the time it takes to get a full charge.

thank you Prana I will read up on this more tonight I like DIY lol

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Chris,

Thanks for getting me to tweak this part of my presentation as I am constantly reminded that what appears to be very simple to me might be very complicated to many. Interestingly, I have illustrated the Ripple Effect using 10 of the 208 Pieces that I have identified in my special Teaching Tool and the mistake you’re making is you’re using 1 Piece from 1 Puzzle to discount 1 Piece from another Puzzle.

As I mentioned to you in my last post, I have a very simple explanation that should make all of this clear to you, but after I reviewed all of my posts on this subject, I realized that I have already done this provided one knows what the Ripple Effect is all about.

So let me add one more set of descriptive words to describe the Science and Art of Healing where we use the Law of Cause & Effect and the Ripple Effect, respectively, and those descriptive words would be “2 Groups of Needs” based on the Law of Cause & Effect and the Ripple Effect, respectively.

So we have the Science of Healing based on the Law of Cause & Effect and 12 Essential Needs and we have the Art of Healing based on the Ripple Effect and 2 Additional Temporary Needs and the mistake you have made Chris is to confuse 1 of our 2 Additional Temporary Needs based on Conditions that have changed with 1 of our 12 Essential Needs.

As I have mentioned over and over to you, you cannot use the Art to discount the Science or you cannot use 1 of our 2 Additional Temporary Needs to discount 1 of our 12 Essential Needs and the mistake you’re making, once again, is you’re using 1 Piece from 1 Puzzle to discount 1 Piece from another Puzzle..

You have also mentioned that you would prefer to use Animal Products, which goes against our Need for Natural Food that we are Biologically Adapted to Eat, to Satisfy 1 of our 2 Additional Temporary Needs instead of using Supplements on the grounds that it would be MORE Natural when in fact, we are NOT Biologically Adapted to Eat Animal Products, so using Animal Products is in Violation of 1 of our 12 Essential Needs and our Essential Needs are based on our Anatomy and NO ONE can DENY that our Species Specific Diet is a Plant Based Diet.

In summary, when we look at our Ideal Diet, we have to look at our Species Specific Diet based on the Law of Cause & Effect and our Anatomy and we also have to look at any Damage that we’ve done to our Bodies and our Environment based on the Ripple Effect and the 2 Additional Temporary Needs that were created by NOT Satisfying any 1 of our 12 Essential Needs. The Key here is if we had NEVER made any Mistakes and Satisfied all of our Essential Needs, we would never have these 2 Additional Temporary Needs based on the Ripple Effect.

Peace and Love..........John