(I am not saying there is not merit in Graham's work in the least. I simply find a few things a bit vague or even not true)

1) Salt is bad, always. He mentions how people cannot stand swallowing sea water but says nothing about animals using salt licks or how our bodies seem to crave salt sometimes. And what about using mined salts instead?

2) He speaks of grains being acidic but neglects to acknowledge that millet is one alkaline grain. Same with nuts--what about almonds? He lumps tubers like white and sweet potatoes in with grains and say they are low in nutrients but as we know, sweet potatoes are abundant in vitamin A and white ones have vitamin c, iron, etc.

3) He says grains are low in vitamins but as my partner noted, what about B vitamins? I know that they are water-soluable and likely destroyed by heat, but he is even against sprouting grains.

All in all, he makes an intriguing case for looking at fat (especially when doing raw vegan) but may be taking it to the extreme, IMO.

I do a similar diet than 801010 but I do a lill more fat and take supplements. I think everybody finds faults in what they think is not their way. But I think that is normal.

Salt can be controversial and people take sides. Animals came from the sea. Blood, tears, body fluids, etc. have many elements originally derived from the sea. I agree that if you are used to eat salt and some new diet says that it is bad, then it irks. Many animals don't ever eat salt. It is something used as a condiment to convert untasty cooked food tasty. For some people the value of food is in its taste. If you appreciate food for its taste then adding salt is important. But sodium is also found on many vegetables. The question is if we need salt or if it is just a gravitational meteorite from past SAD cultures.

Many people agree on grains being bad. They come from grass. Bread is a heavily processed grass product. It had its place in history and agriculture and many cultures thrive on them. It is not really natural but smells great. Sweet potatoes are bombs of oxalates (kidney stones). Better are red potatoes (though with higher glycemic index).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2012 07:07PM by Panchito.

Did you read the part where Graham wrote that man isn't a natural drinker of water? That man can get all his water needs from raw foods? Or something of the sort. I don't have the book anymore because I threw it in the garbage.

Graham had Prana and others many years ago declaring that they were extremely wary of any food that made them thirsty. Hee hee hee!

Graham is basing 80/10/10 on his own body and the fact he is athletic and has good digestion, assimilation, etc., ...and it works for him and a small number of other people. That's great for them, but you need to find what works for you. If you have a slow metabolism, weak genes,a sedentary job and can't eat 20 bananas and 2 heads celery in one sitting strict 8/1/1 is of no use to you.

Everyone more or less agrees on eating as much raw clean food as possible for a healthy diet, but you need to take into account you're own situation.

NGU, I think he was referring to the standard advice to drink 8 glasses of water a day. I always found that to be suspect. First of all, what if I don't want to drink it? I find that there are times when my body demands water and nothing else will do. This is usually during the hottest days of summer. Graham notes that there is so much organic water in a raw vegan diet that it makes actually having to drink glasses of water not as important. I will have to go back and see if he specifically ridicules the idea of drinking any water at all. I do know that he is down on dehydrated foods. I think he has a point in terms of removing water only to drink it anyway!

BJ, thank you for that. I agree that it's an individual thing. I get a little flustered with these very dogmatic books where they decree things as black and white, you know? I immediately get my guard up!

The points above are fairly neutral, however 3 of the poorest pieces of information to come from Doug Graham are his recommendation with water fasting for individuals with adrenal insufficiency which could and likely would have the potential for death. Most with adrenal insufficiency have hypoglycemia and blood sugar regulation problems so any fasting would likely be very problematic. Not only that but adrenal insufficiency substantially decreases the bodies ability to tolerate any stress, fasting is very stressful to the body especially in those with blood sugar issues.

The other is this quote which i find outstanding - Doug Graham: B12 is everywhere. It's in the air. It's in the mucus membranes of your nose. Every time you inhale, you're breathing in B12, every time you swallow your own saliva, you're swallowing B12.

He seems to be basing this purely on that the air contains bacteria so it must also produce vitamin B12. Except that the reactions between bacteria which produce these microbes in the gut doesn't happen in the air. No air sample has ever detected Vitamin B12.

The third is a video i watched where Doug suggests alcoholics should simply cold turkey and water fast to get over there addictions. He uses the analogy of being addicted to junk food as being the same as a serious alcoholic or drug addict. This is simply someone who has no understanding of how potentially serious cold turkeying drugs which work on GABA receptors such as alcohol and benzodiazepines really is. Abruptly stopping alcohol in those with long term addiction can cause seizures and death. Not to mention how malnourished most alcoholics are with low B vitamins and minerals such as magnesium, to suggest fasting is ridiculous in that stage of recovery and could have the potential to induce cardiac arrest.

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2012 02:57PM by powerlifer.

it would have been interesting if the topic was reversed to positive findings instead of negative ones. Bad things are like a magnet. If find your self attracted to find faults, it may be because of whats inside

just a thought

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> it would have been interesting if the topic was
> reversed to positive findings instead of negative
> ones. Bad things are like a magnet. If find your
> self attracted to find faults, it may be because
> of whats inside
>
> just a thought


Yes. JUST one thought in a continuous stream of them...Sorry, but discernment is part of life. I am trying to decide whether or not to do something and whether to believe something.

Your post would have been interesting if you had reversed it to find the positive things in my OP. If you find yourself attracted to find faults, it may be because of what's inside.

Just a thought...

Without curious streams of thought, we'd just accept what we're told, no questions. Disagreement or not on this thread, I think we can agree that we don't want that!

[fresherthanlife.com]

OK. If you want a life of athletic performance and to feel great, you may want to review the attitude. Stop complaining and do something. I foolowed a very similar diet than 801010, and I am in excellent shape (swimming great, run fast, toned, etc). Ok maybe this will not last forever but so far so good. I would say to look at the results and try not to make fantasies based on theories, thoughts, and selected pieces of biased science. Those theories and thoughts are probably based on a comfort seat that you don't want to leave.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2012 10:12AM by Panchito.

Panchito, you may be 100% right. However, I am the sort of person who doesn't like preachy, all-or-nothing books. If you notice in my OP, I am very positive about Graham's book. I wasn't looking for something to pick at. I just read those points and they went against what I feel is true. I am not pretending to know everything but a few things didn't resonate. That shouldn't make his whole book worthless, however.

Used to be a Graham basher. I didn't like him but to be perfectly honest hadn't read him. Lot of eye opening stuff in 80-10-10. Are there comparative risks of choosing a fruit based raw vegan diet over either a fat based one or a starch based one? Maybe? But nothing hard that I've seen. Some studies on dental carries or protein deficiency if you don't have sufficient calories. But presumably if you increase your leafy greens and nuts/seeds a little bit, that's taken care of.

What I liked about 80-10-10 was the simplicity whether monomeals or plain english. I want to experiment a little bit and see what my body tells me. I'll be the first to admit I was too critical in the beginning. Until I've been there, I'm reserving judgment. It's remarkable to me how many of my friends here have thrived on a fruit based raw diet... Tamara, Prana, Gosia, Utopian, others. I guess I will just have to see for myself!

Paul

Dr.Gosia developed B12 deficiency due to the fruit diet and has wrote about her experiences.

There is a thread at the bottom of the forum with her article if interested.

Chris,

I've searched on "Raw Gosia", just "Gosia" and "b-12" and cannot find it. I'm not doubting you. But at this time, 2:28 pm EST I don't see the post you are discussing. Certainly there are B-12 risks but we know what they are. Even Harley and Freelea took B-12 supplementation. What is Grahams's position on this?

Paul

Here is the thread, just food for thought.

Really well written article i thought, even if i disagree with some of it.

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2012 07:35PM by powerlifer.

Chris,

Thanks. Is Graham against all supplementation? I will check for myself tonight. If so, I agree that's a dealbreaker.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2012 07:36PM by pborst.

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chris,
>
> Thanks. Is Graham against all supplementation? I
> will check for myself tonight. If so, I agree
> that's a dealbreaker.
>
> Paul

I have no idea Paul i haven't read 80/10/10 and still intend to one day. I can only go on the article i pulled the quote from in my original response above. Where the interviewer asks Doug where he would get B12 from if not through diet. To which the answer was:

Doug Graham: B12 is everywhere. It's in the air. It's in the mucus membranes of your nose. Every time you inhale, you're breathing in B12, every time you swallow your own saliva, you're swallowing B12.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2012 07:42PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dr.Gosia developed B12 deficiency due to the fruit
> diet and has wrote about her experiences.
>
> There is a thread at the bottom of the forum with
> her article if interested.


That's an interesting way to word it, but I'm not surprised based on the reaction you want and the opinions you hold. People don't develop B12 deficiency due to a fruit diet. They develop B12 deficiency based on lack of intake and/or lack of intrinsic factor. Let's be accurate with our words.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's an interesting way to word it, but I'm not
> surprised based on the reaction you want and the
> opinions you hold. People don't develop B12
> deficiency due to a fruit diet. They develop B12
> deficiency based on lack of intake and/or lack of
> intrinsic factor. Let's be accurate with our
> words.

Yes and the lack of intake was likely caused by her fruit based diet which didn't contain a dietary B12 source. It isn't nutritional rocket science.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2012 08:03PM by powerlifer.

I strive for optimal B-12 intake through redantant mechanisms... I take nutritional yeast, My vega supplement. but I still want to be vegan in the morning.

B-12 is a much discussed subject. In candor, Chris knowingly or otherwise has tapped a prior Graham critical thread I wrote and have to stand by... much of what I learned and liked about Doug has to stand..... at the same time ..Joel Fuhrman didn't like it very much.


Bottom line, as a healthy vegan you have to get b-12... and explore chlorella it looks promising.. Paul

As much as im a fan of Chlorella, i still wouldn't like to rely on it as a B12 source until we know more in regards to its B12 content. From what ive read the B12 that Chlorella and other algaes contain are analogs and without other nutrients don't positively contribute to B12 intake.

I use vega and nutritional yeast myself also in addition to diet.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2012 08:25PM by powerlifer.

One shouldn't rely on any single b-12 source but incorporate several. That said, analogues appear to be in spirulina and not in chlorella [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] That said, it looks to me like I may take a break from all algae... chlorella and sprirulina until I can get this German study figured out. [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]. There are certainly other more reliable vegan sources of b-12 available without the toxins.

Paul

b12 skin patches are great. They simulate taking smelly mud baths (lots of bacteria there). They also release b12 slowly. Thats what you want otherwise you piss it out ;(