Michele,

I would say review the Goldhamer articles I cited above, the Klaper DVD, and most importantly the Fuhrman book for insight into what fasting can do and cannot do and make up your own mind. I obviously disagree with Chris's conclusions. Fasting produces benefits for high blood pressure far above that which is obtained by weight loss alone. It's been documented to lower toxic levels of waste material (both endogenous and exogenous) in people. And I've seen first hand the benefits it can provide.

There are risks that have to be managed. And I agree if you go back to the same behavior that caused the problem it will come back. Best of luck in your endeavors.

Paul

You could probably remove 10 times the amount of toxins in one far infrared sauna session with half the risk. Far infrared sauna comes with its risks also though, many cannot tolerate the increase in body temperature or are already low in electrolytes etc.

We have to remember most of the beneficial aspects of fasting found in studies such as lowered risk of heart disease were from very very short duration fasts i.e 24 hours or simply the absence of skipping one or two meals a month. Theres a mile of difference between short duration fasting and 10-30 day fasts on nothing but water or even worse dry fasting which is often recommended as the ultimate in fasting, which is consuming no water at all. What that's supposed to achieve other than trying to kill you i don't know.

Ive never seen any studies to suggest fasting for 7+ days to be healthy, beneficial or even safe. Like ill say again there are safer and healthier ways to most of these goals. That is great that your blood pressure lowered from fasting Paul, personally id be more interested in why the fast lowered it, i.e is it food allergen caused or something in the diet which is raising the blood pressure such as a excess calcium intake. We shouldn't need to fast to keep our blood pressure at healthy levels is what im trying to say, its an extreme largely unproven method that often produces temporary or no beneficial results in my opinion.

Just my 2 cents, i didn't have good results from fasting. One day i might try intermittent fasting which is a structured fasting method but even that doesn't greatly appeal because i can maintain my weight and health easily now with diet and exercise.

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2012 02:05PM by powerlifer.

Nobody is suggesting dry fasting. Most of the therapeutic fasting is water only as a juice fast isn't a real fast. I'm sorry you had a negative experience with fasting, Chris. Most of the therapeutic benefit from fasting begins on Day 8 or there abouts. Fuhrman has fasted many patients and says the therapeutic benefit usually begins in the second week and may need to go as long as 21 days. You may need medical supervision or consultation for this. True North provides this. [www.healthpromoting.com]

I know in my own case, my high blood pressure abated on Day 11 which is consistent with Goldhamer's results. Your statement that most of the benefits of therapeutic fasting occur in the first 24 hours are not consistent with my experience or the Goldhamer studies or Fuhrman's assessment at least as far as treating medical conditions. 24 hours will do little or nothing as the body is still living off of its stored glycogen and food previously eaten.

Therapeutic fasting for blood pressure has produced results that far exceed other treatment methods. [www.scribd.com] Fuhrman has used this to successfully treat autoimmune conditions as well. [www.nutritionalresearch.org] Most of the benefit for these autoimmune patients was achieved over a two to three week period.

I think we can agree to disagree on this Chris as we see a very different picture regarding water only therapeutic fasting.

Paul

Dry fasting was worth mentioning because it has been recommended numerous times on this forum, i wasn't replying directly to your post Paul other than at the bottom, i was speaking generally in that dry fasting is an even more extreme type of fasting.

Im not saying many of these benefits don't occur, autoimmune issues for example are heavily linked to leaky gut, so stopping the constant auto-immune response many get from consuming dietary allergens such as gluten will help reverse the condition. But this is temporary, if you don't heal the leaky gut then start consuming these foods once you break your fast, the symptoms often come straight back.

My main point was that there are often safer and more proven methods. But its an interesting discussion none the less and i wasn't disagreeing with you, just that there are like i say often safer routes to go and ones that are proven helpful.

I still stand by my point also that you cannot cleanse or "detox" your way out of conditions such as adrenal insufficiency. The toxin theory of all/most disease is an extremely out dated natural hygiene concept. These raw gurus clearly have no understanding of the metabolic and physiological changes that occur in conditions such as adrenal insufficiency, yet they recommend to often water fast.

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2012 02:44PM by powerlifer.

Chris,

I agree with you about not detoxing out of adrenal insufficiency. Also agree that the behavior which started a condition has to be eliminated after the fast or any treatment for that matter. You cannot detox something that is deficient. Only remove an excess.

The appropriateness of a water fast depends on what you are trying to do. And I agree it is always good to look at options. For those considering a water fast, I think there are good resources on this thread to help someone considering it. I hadn't considered the Shelton Book that Prana mentioned. But I may want to add that to my collection.

Paul

PL, Do you not believe in Detoxification then?

WorkoutMan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PL, Do you not believe in Detoxification then?

I do believe in detoxification and as someone who has had heavy metal poisoning i know very well what toxic levels of various elements can do to health.

Saying that in general, detoxification is extremely over-rated and doesn't even apply to most health conditions. The example i used with adrenal insufficiency was a good one, because like i say adrenal fatigue is not a condition that we can "detox" or water fast ourselves out from.

The body is in a constant state of detoxification, breaking down and eliminating harmful wastes and toxins.

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2012 03:47PM by powerlifer.

Yes, I've water and juice fasted a lot. It gave me a temporary high that was followed by serious, long-term digestive issues. I believe in working the digestive system, not slowing it to a crawl. Like I said in a previous post, fasting can work for the unhealthy. IMO, it's irresponsible to encourage the healthy to fast. I do however believe in the power of the mind to heal and that if one truly believes that something will fix their issue, it will. This tells me that from the mental standpoint there's a less painful path to take than fasting. There are people who are curing cancer by simply dropping their slave jobs and following their dreams. Neurosis, depression...these and many other mental conditions are every bit as capable of bringing on disease as external factors such as diet. I never intended to make a direct correlation to blood-letting other than to say that I believe that both blood-letting and fasting are out-dated health approaches that come with many signs, such as fainting, that they're more trouble than they're worth. IMO, our systems are built to be used and to be run on quality fuel. Shutting them down for days on end like they're engines that need to rest lest they get overheated is not logical. I would recommend that no healthy person fast more than the normal daily fast that occurs during sleep and between meals. I actually tend to fast for around 14-16 hours every day. I eat my last meal around 6pm and then don't eat again until 9-10 am or later.

Regarding long-term fasting and weight loss. I don't believe that the results are sustainable for most. Most will inevitably binge to compensate for the extreme deprivation of the fast. This is one point where I definitely agree with folks like Durianrider.

On detoxification, a healthy body is well equipped to detoxify on a regular basis. Be patient and slowly bring yourself to health and everything will be fine. The surest way to detox is to eliminate processed foods and things like trans fats from the diet. By doing this we do not create the detox process but instead help it along. Forcing detox with the chronic use of things like diuretics (dandelion) can also have negative consequences, i.e. you'll probably end up flushing vital nutrients out of your system along with all the alleged toxic material.

The spiritual gains that come from fasting are nothing but woo-woo used by blender salesmen. Feeling dizzy does not = spiritual enlightenment. If that's the type of spiritual gain you want, you might as well go do some bongs and then jump on a merry-go-round. The other side does not need for you to go hungry or hang on a cross in order to commune with other dimensions.

I'm glad that fasting helped you. It honestly brought a smile to my face to know that you have helped yourself in profound ways.

Someone seemed to imply that because I'm not a big proponent of fasting that I am a supporter of things like cheotherapy. Not true at all. If I had cancer, I would not do chemo. I would simply see it as my system's alarm system going off and make some adjustments to my lifestyle. If I ended up dying, so be it. I'm at peace with death as much as I can be.

Another form of fasting that I would recommend for men is not ejaculating. Many health gains can be found there and you can still eat food and provide your bod with those vital nutrients.

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HH Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Looking forward to the day when people view
> > fasting with as much faith as they do
> > bloodletting, both of which cause one to feel
> > faint. Oxygen deprivation, blood loss,
> > dehydration, etc. these are all things that
> cause
> > one to faint or to feel faint. Not one of them
> is
> > considered healthy, yet feeling faint from
> > sustained nutrient deprivation is supposed to
> open
> > the pathways to optimal health? Lowering the
> > metabolism to a crawl will bring you in touch
> with
> > your spirtuality? Is anything which brings a
> > person to the point of fainting "healthy?"
> Very,
> > very questionable health advice in this thread.
> > IMO, the belief that we must suffer to heal is
> an
> > unfortunate product of Judeo-Christian
> > brainwashing that is deeply ingrained in many
> > people.
> >
> > If someone living in the modern world wants to
> > fast, I would suggest fasting from the
> internet,
> > tv, driving, or many other modern things that
> are
> > passed off as conveniences but which actually
> > enslave us. Absolutely nothing cleanses the
> soul
> > like a nice, sustained fast where you
> completely
> > avoid tv and the internet. The only thing
> that's
> > positive about nutrient fasts is that those of
> us
> > who have done it will at least be somewhat
> > psychologically prepared if and when food
> > shortages occur.
>
> Have you ever fasted? Read Fuhrman's book? I
> cured my high blood pressure with it. It has
> nothing whatsoever to do with leeches or blood
> letting. Any treatment has risks and frankly for
> my hypertension, fasting was natural, more
> effective, and was less risky and less expensive.
> It's been used successfully to detoxify patients
> in Japan exposed to PCBs. And though there is no
> profit in it, it's a time venerated and very
> healthy treatment. Don't knock it until you have
> tried it.
> [www.vegsource.com]
> [www.vegsource.com]
> 2.pdf I think the only questionable advice in
> this thread is coming from people who have appear
> to have never tried fasting, don't understand its
> therapeutic power or both.
>
> Paul

I dry fast after 3-4pm daily. I also dry fast from noon to noon weekly. I'm not hungry or thirsty. It's helped me detox even faster than raw foods. I always look my best the day after. Great skin and eyes.

My video to keep me inspired on my health quest: [www.youtube.com]

Especially if you've never fasted before or are in any way unsure, a juice/smoothie fast might be a better first choice: [fresherthanlife.com]

when you say dry fast from 3 or 4, you dont eat or drink anything? Sorry, I am confused.

I do one day a week of no food for 24 hours, but I drink water.


Do you workout during your fasts?

michelemm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Do you workout during your fasts?

no fasts should be done with as little energy expentidure as possible .. read up on fasting

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Michele,

Dry fasting means no food or liquid, hence dry. It's not sustainable for more than very short periods. Tonya Zavosta has been a big proponent of dry fasting. I don't see the point though. Most of the benefits from therapeutic fasting are from water-only fasting rather either juice fasting or dry fasting. Juice fasting really isn't a fast since you continue to consume calories, more like a low calorie liquid diet. Dry fasting is fasting but isn't safe or sustainable for very long (more than 1 or 2 days). Unlike either juice fasting or dry fasting, water only fasting can be done safely for longer periods with good therapeutic results. I have documented the research on these for high blood pressure and autoimmune disease above earlier in the thread. Do read Fuhrman and Klapper though if you decide to proceed. There are risks in water-only fasting as with anything. Good luck.

Paul

HH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, I've water and juice fasted a lot

How long for water in days? How many times? Same for juice?
How did you prepare for it? Did you read Fuhrman's book before hand? Did you monitor electrolytes? Speficially potassium?
.
> Like I said in a previous post, fasting can work
> for the unhealthy. IMO, it's irresponsible to
> encourage the healthy to fast.

Based on what?


I do however
> believe in the power of the mind to heal and that
> if one truly believes that something will fix
> their issue, it will. This tells me that from the
> mental standpoint there's a less painful path to
> take than fasting. There are people who are curing
> cancer by simply dropping their slave jobs and
> following their dreams. Neurosis,
> depression...these and many other mental
> conditions are every bit as capable of bringing on
> disease as external factors such as diet.

Nobody is suggesting water fasting for cancer. Doesn't appear in the literature.

I never
> intended to make a direct correlation to
> blood-letting other than to say that I believe
> that both blood-letting and fasting are out-dated
> health approaches that come with many signs, such
> as fainting, that they're more trouble than
> they're worth. IMO, our systems are built to be
> used and to be run on quality fuel. Shutting them
> down for days on end like they're engines that
> need to rest lest they get overheated is not
> logical. I would recommend that no healthy person
> fast more than the normal daily fast that occurs
> during sleep and between meals. I actually tend to
> fast for around 14-16 hours every day. I eat my
> last meal around 6pm and then don't eat again
> until 9-10 am or later.

To be honest, unless you have water fasted many days and prepared for it, you haven't experienced it or researched it and so shouldn't be making recommendations about it.
>
> Regarding long-term fasting and weight loss. I
> don't believe that the results are sustainable for
> most. Most will inevitably binge to compensate for
> the extreme deprivation of the fast. This is one
> point where I definitely agree with folks like
> Durianrider.

Based on what? DR is a water faster? News to me. I don't think anyone is suggesting fasting for weight loss, though it does produce much and one can keep it off with the right diet afterward. That said, water-fasting, therapeutic fasting is a useful tool for addressing specific health conditions such as high blood pressure and auto immune disease (authority has been provided earlier)

> On detoxification, a healthy body is well equipped
> to detoxify on a regular basis. Be patient and
> slowly bring yourself to health and everything
> will be fine. The surest way to detox is to
> eliminate processed foods and things like trans
> fats from the diet. By doing this we do not create
> the detox process but instead help it along.
> Forcing detox with the chronic use of things like
> diuretics (dandelion) can also have negative
> consequences, i.e. you'll probably end up flushing
> vital nutrients out of your system along with all
> the alleged toxic material.

The body has some capacity for detox while eating. But not if the input is more toxic food. That said, while eating healthy food allows some detoxification, relieving the body of the burden of digestion can accelerate the detoxification process. With no food coming in, existing tissues are used cleaning out junk that wouldn't be touched while more junk or even healthy food was being used for fuel.

>
> I'm glad that fasting helped you. It honestly
> brought a smile to my face to know that you have
> helped yourself in profound ways.

thanks My position is that therapeutic fasting a is a valuable tool to improve conditions that might otherwise require drugs such as high blood pressure and autoimmune disease. And I have provided authority for my statements. I've described my personal experience and provided tools for others on the board in specifics to pursue if they wish understanding that there are risks involved as with anything. Drugs being the alternative for most of these conditions, I think fasting is a bargain, provided it is done right. If it is done wrong, that's no reason to damn the tool. Just use the tool appropriately.

I've fasted for 12 days without food drinking only water having read Fuhrman and on later fasts Klaper. It's cured my high blood pressure. I'm a sworn fasting fan. No getting away from it. Juice fasting and dry fasting are interesting but completely different and without the benefits of water fasting. Juice fasting isn't fasting but rather low calorie eating liquids. Dry fasting isn't sustainable beyond a short period, nothing like water fasting.

My recommendations are look at the literature for Goldhamer, McDougall. Read Fuhrman. Watch Klaper. Proceed slowly using the directlabs.com site when you decide to go beyond 5 days. Good luck and God's speed.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2013 07:29PM by pborst.

powerlifter wrote:

Quote

I still stand by my point also that you cannot cleanse or "detox" your way out of conditions such as adrenal insufficiency. The toxin theory of all/most disease is an extremely out dated natural hygiene concept. These raw gurus clearly have no understanding of the metabolic and physiological changes that occur in conditions such as adrenal insufficiency, yet they recommend to often water fast.

Actually, it is not toxins that are the cause of disease according to natural hygiene, but enervation. Here is a quote by Kevin Hinton, a Nature Cure practitioner and educator, about enervation and the resulting toxins or toxemia that arises from this condition, which is the basis of most chronic disease:

Quote

The Mother of ALL disease
ENERVATION
The fundamental question in the field of human health must surely be:
• "What is the cause of my ill health?"
Using up nerve force in excess of what the body can generate each day must lead to a depletion of this vital energy upon which the body depends for its existence.
This excessive expenditure of nerve force is called ENERVATION.
• How is enervation brought about?
The first and commonest cause is wrong food.
Many of the commodities now being consumed can only be described as Non foods.
Some of the causes of ENERVATION
• Eating too much good food can cause enervation.
• Over stimulation such as is caused by alcohol, tea, coffee, cocoa and tobacco can cause enervation.
• Overwork, worry, fear and excessive sexual activity all enervate the organism.
When enervation occurs (whatever the cause) - elimination of the normal body wastes is slowed down and body wastes which would normally be excreted through the skin, the lungs and the kidneys will be retained.
When this material is retained it impairs the composition of the tissues.
This is called Toxaemia.
It is the mother of every disease.

Fasting is very veneficial all round, but if not done properly can be problimatic. Whatever your reason, begin slowly with a two day fast that won't be harmful and will bring out any problem issues that you might have, in my opinion anyway.

Take care, jalan

jalan! How are you? Hope you are totally healed up and doing good things

Michele,

I'll be curious to hear what you decide to do or...not do.

I will respectfully disagree with your take. You said,

"Truthfully, I think the idea of eating is overrated and social events are completely surrounded by eating and food."

I think that gathering around food can potentially be a beautiful thing. It is the BAD food that MOST people surround themselves with that, to me, is the disheartening part. If it was all great food, why not celebrate it together?

Prana, you said, "It is important however to have permanent hygienic lifestyle changes in place after the fast or symptoms will return."
I am wondering if you can explain just a little bit what hygenic lifestyle is or at least a few elements of it? A question that I have for me is...Would it even be worth fasting when still on prescription meds?

Can't remember who made the comment, but thought it a good reminder.
"You cannot detox something that is deficient. Only remove an excess."

I am reminded of how much I have yet to learn about a truly healthy lifestyle.

If I can come up with the $$ to do so, I have considered looking into doing a 30-day juice feast. I would love it if my dh and I could do it together, however, it would cost far more than we can afford. Really can't even afford for even just one of us to do this currently. It is quite pricey if using all organic.

Michele, when did you start your raw journey? Are you on any prescrips?

Blessings,

Mindy

Hi Michele,

Here are a few Salad Dressing Recipes that I found and thought I'd share with you:

Dressing:

1/4 cup water
1 lemon, juice of
1 avocado
1 rib of celery
1/2 tsp. sea salt

Avocado Dressing:

8 Tbs. water
1 lemon, juice of
1 tomato
1 avocado
pinch of sea salt (optional)

Tahini sauce:

8 Tbs. water
1 tomato
1 lemon, juice of
6 Tbs. tahini
pinch of sea salt (optional)

Dressing:

4 Tbs. water
2 Tbs. tahini
3 Tbs. lemon juice
1 tsp. minced ginger
For this recipe, prepare the dressing separately in a bowl.
You simply mix everything by hand with a spoon, and add
the dressing to the salad.
Filling Stuff

Mindy