Since I’ve seen some discussions lately on Food Combining, here are some older Posts by Jeff Novick, Art Baker, a Debate between Jeff & Art, Dr. Ron & Dr. Flora. The only Food Combining Rule I follow and preach is to put all of the Rabbits in before the Turtles and don’t put Turtles in before the Rabbits. In other words, “Eat the most watery food first, the next less watery food second, etc., and end with the least watery and most concentrated food last and NEVER reverse this order of eating.”

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
Food Combining According to Jeffrey S. Novick...
John Rose (---.59.51.208.Dial1.Houston1.Level3.net)
Date: 11-17-02 08:11

From: "Jeffrey S. Novick"
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 02:24:47 -0500
Subject: Is Food Combining Justified?

THE CHEMISTRY AND PHYSILOGY OF DIGESTION:
Is Food Combining Justified?

> >The basic principles of physiology and biochemistry of digestion that
> >Shelton (and others) based their "rules" of food combining on, were
> >based on an incorrect and limited understanding of human physiology
> >and biochemistry.
>
> is certainly a large claim. Perhaps you have generalized upon
> the quotes you made of Mr. Shelton in an earlier note.

As I mentioned earlier, it may be us who are confused. We may be the ones with the proverbial "cart before the horse".

First the simple solution:
The manifest world is supposed to be a reflection of our inner being. Not the opposite. So if we are having difficulties in the manifest world, where should we go for the solution? Inner or outer? So, the food we are eating or are attracted to, or are manifesting around us is also just a reflection of our inner state. So if we want to change this manifestation, where should we go and what should we work on? Not what’s on the plate, as it’s only the reflection. Change what is in our heart and mind and then what’s on the plate will follow along, simply and naturally without any force or struggle. We can’t change what’s on the plate and expect the inner to follow. It will only create a struggle which many of us have some real good first hand experience with! And that is why we struggle so much with the changes. We try to force them and not let them flow from within in their natural way and time. So relaxation and mediation is more important than dietary "rules".

The more complicated answer:
Without going into all the details and specifics of the exact biochemistry and physiology of digestion at this late hour, I will just give a general overview of why that may be so. (And I assure you that every one of my statements is scientifically accurate and valid and can be backed up by research studies. I have spent the last 10 years or so trying to validate (or invalidate) this.

In the mouth besides the mechanical breakdown from chewing, the only real biochemical digestion is from salivary amylase. This works *just* to break down some larger starch molecules into smaller ones. It is a precusor or preperatory step for the real starch digestion that happens later. And it works best in a alkaline environment. It is not where much starch digestion really happens. And a little mechanical digestion through the teeth, tongue and chewing. Additionally, there is some lingual lipase that is released, mostly in infants (due to the high fat content of breast milk), but it does little to digest the fats we may eat.

The stomach is set up mainly to *begin* protein digestion by breaking the larger proteins into smaller ones and it does so in an acidic environment, though nowhere near as acidic as a carnivores. There is no other chemical breakdown that is either designed to happen or supposed to happen. Not for fats or for starches. The system is designed to hold them both in "limbo" while they get churned up and await their real digestion. And if we are eating normally and rationally, this will happen pretty quickly without this fermentation that is supposed to be so rampant but no one seems to be able to document. This is NOT the major site of protein digestion. The stomach however, is made up of a very strong musculature and also changes the mass of food that we swallowed from a "bolus" of food into something called chyme through powerful churning and contractions and mixture with fluids.

This chyme is then released (~ 5 ml at a time= 1 tsp) into the first part of the small intestine where the acid is immediately neutralized and changed to a slightly alkaline environment again. Additionally, bile is released to act as a emulsifier for the fat molecules. This is also where the chemicals and enzymes for the MAJOR digestion of fats, starches AND proteins happens. All together. It’s truly an amazing event. Many specific types of enzymes are released that act on specific substances and it all happens together in this alkaline environment.

This is where the real complexity and "wizardery" of the process really happens. The other areas where just *preperatory* stages for this part. This is where most of the digestion of the components really happens. And it all happens together. Fat, protein and starch. All in the same environment, and its slightly alkaline. Even for the protein!

Now, there are a few things that can really mess up or negatively influence this system that we know about for sure. One is large amounts of fats. It will slow the whole thing down because the digestion of fat is very difficult, complicated and takes a long time. So there are actual chemicals released (CCK) that signal the system to slow itself down so it can have the time to work on the fat. It can take up to 6 hours or more.

Drinking with meals can also interfere somewhat depending on the fluid and its temperature, osmolarity, etc.,.

Stress and anxiety can and will shut the whole thing down. And cause a decrease of the secretions and blood flow that is necessary. (see how powerful our minds are!) And we are back to the simple solution!

And another one and maybe THE big one......, you guessed it,
****overeating*****!! Messes up everything. Timing, chemicals,
coordination, etc., etc., Causes distension and problems in the whole
process especially in the stomach (where we notice most of the problems anyway). And most people overeat due to stress, and boredom, and depression, and lonliness and etc, etc, and now we are right back to the simple solution again!

So why does food combining seem to work so well for you or me. (and now comes a lot my theory, which is not proven or documented)

Probably because when practicing food combining we also usually stop overeating (relatively speaking), cut down on the fats, stop drinking with meals, and eat simpler meals all of which have been shown to be helpful (or are actually the opposite of those things that have a known negative impact).

It’s easier to overeat on cooked, processed, refined, foods that on whole natural raw foods.

So, a lot of what Shelton (and others) said may be accurate in theory, but it may not actually hold water for the reasons he gave. Starch and protein were never meant to be digested together in the stomach and the system is set up to take care of that as there are some natural foods that do contain both and sometimes in significant concentrated amounts. Or were they a flaw in nature? Now, most don’t and thank god, because it’s just easier and simpler that way and we aren’t really set up to eat to many concentrated foods at all. And what about beans? Sprouted or not? Abandon the beans! There are other factors in them (that have been discussed on the lists recently) that mess with digestion. There are parts of them that we cannot digest and though sprouting may reduce their presence, it doesn’t eliminate them.

Food combining, (from my understanding of it, and my conversations with many of the NH pro's who have come before us) was originally designed and set up NOT for the true practicing NHer (who wouldn’t really need it anymore due to the simplicity of their diet), but for the person in transition who was still eating all the "other" stuff, to help ease and simplify their dietary practices and meals. To reduce their dietary atrocities. That’s why except for his little book on it, which if you check out the recipes, aren’t very hygienic to begin with, he never really promoted it. It’s everyone else who has. What role does food combining really play when we are eating mostly mono fruit or food meals anyway! or at least I hope we are.

The info someone also just posted about achloridosis in humans has been coming to light more and more lately. Especially in the elderly though many middle age adults are also showing it. Seems we have stomachs that aren't doing what they are supposed to be doing in the area of digestion. My guess (and this is a guess) is because of the years and years of overstressing the system with highly concentrated proteins which overworks and overstresses the acid mechanisms and components. Overuse becomes wear and tear that leads to breakdown and deficiency.

Also remember, (still my theory here) , another problem is that we go from a conventional diet to a raw food diet and we haven’t give our system a chance to adjust. It takes a while for certain enzymes to build up their levels (if they still can) to the change. You are talking going from about 11 grams of fiber a day to about 40-60!! Holy Gas and cramping, Batman!!

So, want to really improve your digestion without worrying about food combining (separating)? Try this experiment. Eat whatever you want in whatever combination but do the following,......

... make sure it is whole, natural and unprocessed and no more than 2 or at most 3 different things at a time, and chew your food really well, enjoy our food, and most of all RELAX, RELAX, RELAX!! Much simpler this way!

Someone keeps bringing up the gorillas and chimps and all, well, how many of them do you see violate those rules? Or eat multiple processed foods at a meal.

To me it seems like most of us just use food combining to complicate our lives and to see how far we can go and with what we can get away with in the area of dietary entertainment and complexity.

So, keep it simple, relax, enjoy your food, watch your breath.

Jeff

P.S. I would be glad to add the details in on any of the above if anyone wants them and I would also gladly welcome any documentation that either further supports what I say or challenges it. Please do so. My mind is always open. But now its time to shut my eyes.

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[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
Food Combining According to Art Baker...
John Rose (---.59.51.208.Dial1.Houston1.Level3.net)
Date: 11-17-02 08:11

Date: 04-26-01 08:45 Art Baker

Hi Eugene,

Food combining is important when eating cooked food. The book FIT FOR LIFE by Harvey and Marilyn Diamond describes food combining for cooked food eaters in a manner that has resulted in millions of copies being sold, and healthy weight loss taking place.

For raw fooders, and during a 100% raw meal, food combining is much less important. It all comes down to enzymes. Enzymes in raw food are viable. In cooked food, they are not. With cooked food, digestion relies primarily on the body's digestive enzymes, which are limited. This is why the typical cooked food eater suffers from indigestion at nearly each meal.

With raw food, digestion relies primarily on the enzymes within the food. If the raw food is ripe and fresh, then nature pre-digests it for us. If we eat relaxed, unstressed, unhurried, then the meal has a good chance of being digested without a problem so long as no previous digestive issues are unresolved within the physiology.

If healing of the digestive tract of a former cooked food eater is still occurring, then digestion and absorption of raw food meals may not be maximally up to speed until self-healing has been completed, which of course, takes place either at a quick rate on a fast, or a slower rate on as much fresh produce and raw food that you can consume over an extended period of time.

Since I have been a 100% raw fooder, I mix all sorts of raw food without a problem at just about any meal. It took my system years to clean out however, to get to this point, since I chose not to go on an extended fast, but rather go the slower route as mentioned above. I still usually eat fruit first, before the portion of my meal that includes veggie or nut recipes, but not always. I never have a problem either way. I also eat fruit afterwards without a problem when desired.

I hope this helped.

ART BAKER MA, NHE

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[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
Food Combining Debate Between Art Baker & Jeff Novick (Posting As Nobody & Nobody Special)...
John Rose (---.59.51.208.Dial1.Houston1.Level3.net)
Date: 11-17-02 08:12

Date: 04-29-01 20:28 nobody [Jeff N.]

Hi Art- thanks for your answers!

I too read your article on food combining- it was very good! But it sounds like you are saying something completely different here from your article!

I've heard a lot of other raw fooders say that food combining was invented for cooked foodists.

I understand the enzymes helping digest more efficiently but I don't see how eating the same food raw would make food combining laws obsolete?

Don't nuts still take 3-4X as long to digest then fruit? Raw or not? I though food combining was about not eating long digestion time foods with short ones. Like fruit and nuts etc. Because the short time foods will only digest as fast as the longest ones you ate and ferment inside?

I have had the worst digestion problem once on a big raw meal I made- all 100% raw. I mixed everything and was way too full- ate too much but the amount I ate was very little. The combination and amount of fat caused problems. Was so bloated for days.

Sometimes combining fruit with other things has caused headaches etc or stomach aches.

If once I'm clean I don't have to worry about that anymore then fantastic! But it all sounds too good to be true!

If it is true then why do long term raw foodists like Dave Klein and Douglas Graham still advocate food combining even on the raw diet?

What scientifically would make it so different raw or cooked?

Thanks!
[www.living-foods.com]
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Date: 05-01-01 15:20 Art Baker
RE: raw food and food combining (to "nobody"

Nobody, you wrote the other day (and I just saw it) the below most excellent (dude) post:

Author: nobody (---.we.mediaone.net)
Date: 04-29-01 20:28

Hi Art- thanks for your answers!

I too read your article on food combining- it was very good! But it sounds like you are saying something completely different here from your article!

I've heard a lot of other raw fooders say that food combining was invented for cooked foodists.

I understand the enzymes helping digest more efficiently but I don't see how eating the same food raw would make food combining laws obsolete?

Don't nuts still take 3-4X as long to digest then fruit? Raw or not? I though food combining was about not eating long digestion time foods with short ones. Like fruit and nuts etc. Because the short time foods will only digest as fast as the longest ones you ate and ferment inside?

I have had the worst digestion problem once on a big raw meal I made- all 100% raw. I mixed everything and was way too full- ate too much but the amount I ate was very little. The combination and amount of fat caused problems. Was so bloated for days.

Sometimes combining fruit with other things has caused headaches etc or stomach aches.

If once I'm clean I don't have to worry about that anymore then fantastic! But it all sounds too good to be true!

If it is true then why do long term raw foodists like Dave Klien and Douglas Graham still advocate food combining even on the raw diet?

What scientifically would make it so different raw or cooked?


Thanks!

MY RESPONSE:

Correct me if I am wrong from my previous posts, but I never meant to say (if I did) that food combining ONLY applies to cooked foods, BUT RATHER that food combining definately is less significant with raw food. For instance, I agree with Dave Klein and Doug Graham, and personally the fruit meals I eat are usually mono-meals.

The difference is now that I am 100% raw however, is that I have no problems whatsoever with meals like banana ice cream with raw nuts or raw coconut mixed in, and no problems with dozens of dips, sauces and dressings I'll eat made of a mixture of avocado with blended fruit or freshly extracted fruit juices as well as a single type of nut that has been pulzerized in a coffee grinder, all mixed together and eaten as a dressing or dip with fruit chucks and veggie slices, including starchy root veggies.

It isn't that food combining principles become obsolete with raw food. The chemistry still applies. The difference is that digestion becomes normalized, healed, and more efficient, and stressed much less on raw foods versus cooked meals. Because of this, digestion is easier on a raw food diet. It does depend on the individual however. It makes sense to me why Dave Klein is more strict, since his health challenge has been Crohn's. Personally, I have an iron gut, and never had many symptoms while being raised on meat and potatoes for the first 20 years of my life, except for the standard smell stools and gas which is pathogenic in itself. So you need to look at the individual as well.

As far as your question about nuts, when I grind them up, I digest them much more easily. When I eat nuts whole, I need to be really careful to chew, chew, chew before swallowing, which is a conscious thing for me since with all the years of cooked food, just gulping food down without swallowing much was such a habit, which is the norm in our quick paced society.

Of course, this pre-grinding s impossible to do with cooked meats, which therefore take 3 to 4 hours to digest, not to mention the hardship the digestive apparatus has still to contend with from the heated protein crosslinkages, and the meat not being food that we are designed for in the 1st place.

The comment you made about the raw meal high in fat makes sense too. Fat is difficult to digest. Go easy on fats until your digestion is up to speed. You'll find that as time goes by, you'll be able to digest these easier, but do not expect it overnight. It all depends on your age, how long your digestion may have been abused on a SAD diet, and prior digestive problems.

Hang in there and Go nuts!

AB
[www.living-foods.com]
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Date: 05-01-01 15:46 Nobody Special [Jeff N.]
RE: raw food and food combining

Food combining was based on a very limited science and understanding of how the digestive system works. Today we know much more and now know that while food combining may work for some people, it works for different reason then first assumed, and is not as essential as once thought.

Sheltons writing were written for people following the tradional diet and his food combining rules were basically to prevent them from overeating "unhealthy" food and overeating period. Check his books out and the menus and you will see what i mean. They were not written for the raw fooder. Also, he admitted in several of the rules that he "knows no physiological reason" supporting his ideas. In other word, there was no science behind them,.

Some of the problems with the basic concepts.

1) food combining is based on the concept that most of the digestion takes place in the stomach and different foods need different "ph's" to digest properly. this is incorrect. First, only about 1-10% of digestion takes place in the stomach. 90-99% of all digestion takes place in the small intestine and it all takes place in an akaline environment. All digestive enzymes in the small intestine work in a alkaline medium. Second, the stomach is always acidic (and not akaline when we eat a starch meal) and can break down both protein and carbs and thier is no "conflicting" phs.

2) the enzymes that are in food are in food for the benefit of the food and not us. When they hit the stomach, these enzymes (which are small protein molecules) are broken down into their amino acid components and do not act as enzymes. We secrete our own enzymes. Also, by the time they hit the Small intestine, where most digestion takes place, they have been completely inactivated.

3) many foods in nature have compostitions of fat, carb and protein that would in and of themselves violate food combingin rules, yet we digest them just fine. For instance, dark green leafies are about 20-30% protein (high protein food) and also about 60-70 carbohydrate (high carb food). Food combining says you can digest high carb foods with high protein foods. Yet we digest green leafies just fine.

So, why does food combining "appear" to work for some many people? Well for most, they are already eating a very poor, highly mixed, high fat diet and most people overeat. So when they start following food combining, they have made a vast improvement in their dietary compostion, less variety, and less fat and less tenedency to overeat. Many people get well on healthy diets that dont teach food combining.

What are the main causes of poor digestion?
1) Overeating
2) High Fat foods (we dont digest fat very well)
3) too much Variety of foods at one meal
4) Stress

So, see why food combinging "appeared" to work. By the following the rules, you eliminated at least 3 of the above 4 major reasons of digestive problems.

You can do you own experiment. Try mixing some meals, violate food combining rules but dont over eat, over do the fat, or over do the variety at any one time and you will be fine. and do NOT overeat.

Many long term advocates of food combining have long abandoned their strict adherence to it as they have also learned that it is not as important for the reasons once believed. Even Harvey Diamond did at the last ANHS conference he spoke out, when he downplayed the importance of food combining saying that when he was younger in his zealousness he may have overemphasized some things that are not as important as he once thought they were.

Relax, eat simple, and enjoy your food.
[www.living-foods.com]
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Date: 05-01-01 16:07 Art Baker
RE: raw food and food combining (to

When in doubt about conflicting information, do an experiment and decide for yourself. Drop food combining for awhile (at least a month) and see how you feel, and then make a choice based on direct experience.
[www.living-foods.com]
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Date: 05-01-01 17:04 Nobody Special Jeff N.
RE: raw food and food combining

how-ever, (and which my point is) comparing the standard american diet to a strict hygienic raw food combined diet, and then saying the difference is due to the food combining is not fair.

I recommend your suggestion however, Lets compare a fairly strict hygienic raw properly combined diet with a fairly strict hygienic raw diet that is not combined by the "rules" but follows the suggestions i made. then we will have a fair comparison.
[www.living-foods.com]
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Date: 05-01-01 21:10 Lysander
RE: raw food and food combining

I used to observe combining-rules quite strictly, and have since dropped them progressively. After a while you get to read your body like a book, and you can predict exactly what you can digest comfortably and what you cannot. Still, I prefer not to combine a fruit with any other type of fruit or any other type of food.

The hygienic doctor John Fielder expressed it well:
Food combining is a very contentious issue amongst Hygienists, and a very interesting one at that. I believe there is some truth in the traditional way as expounded by Shelton, as well as that by Bass. I don't feel they are wholly right, nor wholly wrong.

I believe we must all find out what is right in these principles for ourselves. My good friend Dr. Goldberg I think would refer to it as our "Biochemical Individuality".

My experience has been that what my body tells me to combine today, it will reject tomorrow as totally inappropriate. It is a moment by moment, day by day, ever changing vista, according to the biochemical needs of our own individual, unique organism.

[www.iig.com.au]
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Date: 05-03-01 16:03 Art Baker

Green vegetables are considered neutral in digestive character when considering food combining, since cellulose is indigestible but acts as roughage to keep the digestive canal well toned. Bacteria in the gut help break it down thereby triggering peristalsis (the muscle involuntary contractions that allow for bowel movement).

Food combining rules are relative to acid and alkaline digestive enzyme secretions, and since neither of these occur with green vegetables, they are neutral. High-water content green vegetables (celery, lettuces) combine well with everything including fruit, protein and starch foods.

AB
[www.living-foods.com]
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Date: 05-04-01 18:14 Art Baker

Great questions, nobody.

Cooked food is immediate food more for bacteria, than for humans. Even low cooking temperatures so destroy the nutrients (as well as the enzymes), that bacteria that are ubitquitous (everywhere in the air and in the body) thrive on the decomposing just heated rotting organic matter.

For example, visualize cooked apples side-by-side with raw apples on a kitchen counter: the raw ones stay fresh for weeks, the cooked ones rot virtually overnight. The same type of bacterial action occurs in the body depending on whether the meal is cooked or not, which is why feces smell so bad in cooked food eaters.

On the other hand, when its enzymes are viable as the food is consumed in a raw state, they are provided by nature in abundance, and they aid digestion at large of the entire meal especially when the meal is all raw. This may explain in part why leucocytosis (proliferation of white blood cells) does occur with cooked foods, but not with either raw foods, nor with properly combined easy to digest, simple cooked vegan meals that also have an abundance of fresh high water content foods included (usually salad type veggies or non-sweet veggie fruits like tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, etc).

This is why food combining is so important with cooked foods, yet is more lax with raw foods. It is the enzyme component in the high water content fresh produce, which is partly responsible for eventually breaking down the food even when its NOT eaten (like in the apple example above, the raw apples do not stay fresh forever), that also aids in digestion of the overall meal (the nuts in your example).

As far as your specific questions regarding potential problems with food combining, it depends on the person. For example, if they were a long time 100% raw fooder whose system is cleaned out, without any history of digestive problems, the fruit and nut combo would probably be easier to handle versus someone with the opposite history. Also, high water content vegetables are usually easier to digest with nuts than fruit, but it all depends on the individuals digestive constitution, since all body's have their strengths and weaknesses.

The guiding principle with food combining is: make it as easy as possible on the body. Over time as the system regains vitality and strength as it self-heals due to higher quality raw materials being ingested with the simultaneous avoidance of previously ingested junk, then more complex raw food combinations often do not pose the same challenges that they once may have.

ART BAKER, MA, NHE
www.HealthCreation.net
[www.living-foods.com]
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Date: 05-04-01 18:21 nobody

Thanks Art!

Does that mean that when you dehydrated food (at 110) it also destroys the nutrients and enzymes making it dead? As well as oxidizing it?

What about all those "experts" that claim the enzymes get destroyed in the stomach long before the food gets the the small intestine to "digest"- so the body makes it's own enzymes?

Thanks again!!!
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Date: 05-04-01 18:29 Art Baker

As long as the dehydrator is below about 107, you are fine. Its better to play it safe, and dehydrate lower than that. I keep mine set at 105. It is also interesting to point out that desert plants have biological adaptations that enable their enzymes to survive at desert temperatures in the 110's and above.

Dave Klein posted a message the other day showing that on raw food, digestive secretions are not nearly as acidic if at all (like they are with cooked foods), and therefore the food enzymes survive the trip.

And yes, the body does make its own enzymes but at great energy expenditure, which is another reason to eat raw, since physical healing is all about energy conservation, energy re-distribution and body detoxification (which itself is energy expensive).

ART
[www.living-foods.com]
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Date: 05-04-01 19:01 Nobody Special [Jeff N.]

Not to be arrogant, but Dave Kleins post did not in anyway refute this info. He said that Victor K has refuted it and Howell also, but Victor K and Howell have both been known for thier "Pseudo" sciecne as much as their science.

The reality is that the our stomachs produce HCl that is acidic. A powerful acid. There are not "varying" degrees of how acidic HCl is. To say this is to completely misunderstand chemistry. It is true that someone eating a animal based diet, may need to secret more HCl for a longer period (as this food is harder to break down), but it is not "more" acidic.

Enzymes are small protein molecules that undergo digestion in the Stomach. Most all the digestion that takes place in the stomach is protein digestion.

If you do some reseacrh into the area of cystic fibrosis, you will find out how true this is. People with CS do not secrete pancreatic enzymes, so they must be supplied from the outside. One of the major problems in this area in helping these people is how to create enzyme pills that survive the stomach and make it into the small intestine where they are needed. They try their darndest with all kinds of coatings and most all the enxymes, despite their best efforts ARE destroyed/inactivated in the stomach. So, if you know something these chemists/scientists don't, you might want to give them a call, and stop much of the suffering these CS kids have.

Using our enzymes is not ennervating. It is the way the body is designed to operate. To say that it is, would be like saying walking is enervating (which in some ways it is), and we should all use moving sidewalks. We were meant to expend energy in certain areas and the production and secretion of our enzymes is not what is causing most health problems today.

The enzymes that are in plants are for the plants and are used by the plants in their growth and life.

Now, is it possible, that we digest and break down these plant enzymes into their amino acids, and then these amino acids go into our amino acid pool and then POSSIBLE these amino acids be used in the creation of our own enzymes? yes, but they can also be used in the creation of any other protein molecule we need, (ie Insulin)

As i discussed earlier in my post on food combining, food combining worked but not for the reasons (the rules) that people orignally thought it did. And it is not as important as most people think. The same holds true here. Eating a predominately raw food plant based diet has incredible health benefits, but it is not because of the enzymes.
[www.living-foods.com]
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Date: 05-04-01 19:09 Art Baker

Nobody, you said in your last post that:

"Using our enzymes is not ennervating. It is the way the body is designed to operate. To say that it is, would be like saying walking is enervating (which in some ways it is), and we should all use moving sidewalks. We were meant to expend energy in certain areas and the production and secretion of our enzymes is not what is causing most health problems today."

Does this mean to you that humans were designed to eat cooked foods (but no other species in the history of earth is)?

I disagree with your point here. Cooked food DOES tax digestion, our digestive secretions, the pancreas, and the other organs that generate them moreso than raw food especially since each snack that cooked fooders eat, each meal, day in and day out, week after week for months, years, decades and an entire lifetime each and every day, their digestive secretions are called on far more than a raw fooder who food combines properly. And this IS enervating to digestion.

8<
AB
[www.living-foods.com]
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Date: 05-04-01 19:27 Nobody Special [Jeff N.]

The typical diet of a typcial american (or anywhere that we have our western diet now) is definetly a problem. But not so much that it is cooked or these so called enzymes are destroyed, but because of all the processing, refining, industrialization, and additives, chemicals, fats, etc that are in it. In the light of the amount of fat, saturated fat, hydrogenated fat, trans fat, sugar, salt, additives, alcohol, preservatives etc that are in the "Western Diet" and the effect all of this is having on people, to then say that the real problem is the cooking the food and the destruction of the enzymes, i beleive ( and have the hard facts and science to back it) that this is turning a blind eye to the realityof the situation. Cooked fat is defineitely a problem, no doubt. As is some other food that it is highly cooked, but it is not cause of the enzyme destruction. And, to compare this standart western diet, to a very healthy mostly and mostly or all plant based diet that includes some conservatively cooked food and make the same statements is ridiculous. Granted, there are benefits to raw foods and a raw food diet, but lets maintain a healthy perspective.
[www.living-foods.com]
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Date: 05-04-01 19:41

I agree with what you said, and do not see any differences in our perspectives. If you have read my previous posts about how I teach seminars to standard cooked fooders in emphasizing fresh produce, you'd see we share the same point.

I'm not sure what you meant by your comment:
"to compare this standart western diet, to a very healthy mostly and mostly or all plant based diet that includes some conservatively cooked food and make the same statements is ridiculous. Granted, there are benefits to raw foods and a raw food diet, but lets maintain a healthy perspective".

All the processed foods ARE super heated. It is not JUST the enzymes that is the problem, I totally agree.

If you're interested, read my long detailed, well researched document called RAW vs. COOKED FOODS on my website www.HealthCreation.net.

AB

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[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
Food Combining According to Dr. Ron...
John Rose (---.59.51.208.Dial1.Houston1.Level3.net)
Date: 11-17-02 08:13

Re: New rules
Better rules for you!!! dr. ron (---.asm.bellsouth.net)
Date: 09-27-01 21:30

Other long term raw fooders disagree!!!

FOOD COMBINING
......
Any quick digesting foods must wait till the slowest digesting foods leave the stomach before they can leave - a process which can take up to 6 or 8 hours. While waiting, the fruit, cooked and raw vegetables, and some of the starches undergo some decomposition and fermentation, producing gas, acid and even alcohol along with indigestion. .....


FOODS WITH SAME DIGESTIVE TIME
There are food groups which may be combined at the same course during a meal. These are foods which have the same approximate digestive time. .....


A RADICAL NEW CONCEPT OF DIGESTION
..... If there are 5 different types of food in the stomach at one meal, each eaten separately and in sequence, there will be 5 different kinds of digestion going on at the same time, each layer having different enzymes digesting each food, according to the needs of the food contained in that layer.

But when say 5 different foods are eaten at a meal, where each mouthful or bite is taken of a different food, then the entire stomach is filled with the same mixture. .....


ADVANTAGES OF REARRANGING THE SEQUENCE
One of my patients in my early days of practice absolutely refused to give up any of his accustomed, conventional, low-quality foods. In this case, feeling my hands completely tied, in desperation, I gave him all that he desired. The only change I made was to rearrange the sequence of his foods. Amazingly, all of his digestive problems vanished in just 3 days.

..... Another advantage of eating one food at a time is that the person's sense of taste is satisfied with much less - but when each mouthful consists of a different alternating variety, the appetite is constantly stimulated leading to the consumption of a far greater quantity of food eaten in each meal - far more than needed to meet bodily requirements.
.....

SEQUENTIAL EATING REFERENCES
......Here in simple language is an explanation of P. 993 (Howell's Textbook of Physiology):
Grutzner fed rats morsels of food of 3 different colors. First the black, then the white second, and third the red color. Shortly after, the animals were sacrificed, the stomach frozen and then cut in sections. The different colored food was found to be in layers.
Here we have definite laboratory proof that food digests in a layered or strata formation - contrary to the common conception that all food eaten mixes in the stomach. .....

There was a famous case, written about by Beaumont, during the American Civil War, where a soldier received a gunshot wound which caused a large visible opening to appear in his stomach. His digestion was studied for a period of time by several doctors present, and they observed that his food digested in different layers.


SIMPLE TEST FOR ANYONE
One simple test that I used on myself was to eat different foods, one variety at a time, in sequence [all at one meal], for several different meals. Then when nature called, I examined the feces and was able to see different colors in the same feces. Watermelon which was reddish in color, was first, then tossed salad which was very dark brown was next, and cheese was very light tan was last. All were joined together, exiting the body in the same order as they were eaten.
Anyone can try this test, but to be accurate, the different foods must be eaten one at a time, and follow each other in sequence.


STRATA DIGESTION - A FORGOTTEN CONCEPT
..... What amazes me is that, even though, Henry Sherman believed in the strata formation of food in digestion, and Howell's Physiology book was published in 1941, to this day , almost every writer on nutrition as well as almost all doctors believe that everything you eat in a meal mixes together. How such an important concept as the strata digestion of food was bypassed and almost completely unnoticed for over 50 years since Howell's book was published, is a great mystery to me. .....


STOMACH - ILLUSTRATION
For purposes of illustration, I am presenting a diagram of the stomach and how 6 different foods eaten in sequence at one meal would form 6 different layers, during the time spent in the stomach.

In this diagram of the stomach, in layer 1, the bottom and first layer is where the first food eaten goes (the papaya). Layer 2 is where the 2nd food eaten goes (the tossed salad). Layer 3 is where the corn on the cob goes, etc. In this meal we are using 6 different foods, giving us 6 layers. ......

With this meal, after 30 min. the papaya will leave the stomach, and layer 2 - the tossed salad, will move down to layer one's place.
Layer 2 will shortly thereafter leave the stomach too. Then the corn in layer 3 moves down and 15 min. later, it will leave the stomach
This is followed by the steamed vegetables almost immediately after.
Then, a baked potato (without butter - 60 min.) will stay 15 min more in the stomach and then leave.
Lastly, the rice + 1 tbs. lentils (layer 6) remains in the stomach for an additional 30 min. Leaving the stomach emptied.
Within close to 2 hours (counting chewing time), the entire meal has digested perfectly. Each food relished to the maximum with no discomfort or sluggishness afterward.

..... As each layer leaves, the stomach size gets smaller and feels more comfortable. Each layer digests separately, without mixing and without disturbing its adjacent layers.


BASIC RULE - WATERY FOODS FIRST
To simplify this concept of sequential or layered eating, the basic rule or principle can be stated as follows:
- Eat the most watery food first, the next less watery food second, etc., and end with the least watery and most concentrated food last and NEVER reverse this order of eating.
.....


BAD COMBINATIONS TO AVOID
The following represents some examples of bad combinations to avoid

Mixing dried sweet fruit, honey, maple syrup or bananas with nuts or seeds, in the same dish, course or mouthful.

Mixing starch foods with fresh or acid foods or fruits, (as "fruit, lemons or vinegar with grains, bread, etc.)

Mixing dried sweet fruits with acid fruits.

Never eat dried sweet fruits with or after concentrated proteins (beans, fish, chicken, meat, etc.)

Eating raw, fresh or dried fruits after any cooked food (such as vegetables, starches or proteins) They can be eaten before, but never after cooked food.

Avoid drinking beverages or even water during or after meals. This dilutes the enzymes which digest the food.


CHEW ALL FOOD CLOSE TO LIQUID
For best digestion - chew all food close to a liquid before swallowing.

Also in the 14th edition of Howell's Textbook of Physiology on p.777 is some very interesting research:
Abbe Spallanzani (1729 - 1799), one of the older observers on gastric digestion, found that cherries and grapes, when swallowed whole, even if entirely ripe, were usually passed unbroken in the stools. "As proof that the triturating power (ability to reduce to a powder by rubbing or friction) of the stomach is not very great, he swallowed some wooden tubes made very thin, so that the slightest pressure would crush them, and they were voided uninjured."
This indicates the tremendous importance of thorough mastication of all food. We can assimilate only those foods which are most liquified. .....


EAT WITH ATTENTION
An excellent practice is to eat with 100% attention on the taste of the food. See Self-mastery through Attentive Eating .....


DIGESTION TIME OF VARIOUS FOODS
(approx. time spent in stomach before emptying). ........
Water
when stomach is empty, leaves immediately and goes into intestines,

Juices
Fruit vegetables, vegetable broth - 15 to 20 minutes.

Semi-liquid
(blended salad, vegetables or fruits) - 20 to 30 min.
Fruits

Watermelon - 20 min.digestion time.
Other melons - Canteloupe, Cranshaw, Honeydew etc. - 30 min.
Oranges, grapefruit, grapes - 30 min.
Apples, pears, peaches, cherries etc. - digest in 40 min.

Vegetables

Raw tossed salad vegetables - tomato, lettuces, cucumber, celery, red or green pepper, other succulent vegetables - 30 to 40 min. digestion. -

Steamed or cooked vegetables

Leafy vegetables - escarole, spinach, kale, collards etc. - 40 min. - Zucchini, broccoli, cauliflower, string beans, yellow squash, corn on cob - all 45 min. digestion time
Root vegetables - carrots, beets, parsnips, turnips etc. - 50 min.

Semi-Concentrated Carbohydrates - Starches

Jerusalem artichokes & leafy, acorn & butternut squashes, corn, potatoes, sweet potatoes, yam, chestnuts - all 60 min. digestion.

Concentrated Carbohydrates - Grains

Brown rice, millet, buckwheat, cornmeal, oats (first 3 vegetables best) - 90 min.

Legumes & Beans - (Concentrated Carbohydrate & Protein)

Lentils, limas, chick peas, peas, pigeon peas, kidney beans, etc. - 90 min. digestion time soy beans -120 min. digestion time

Seeds & Nuts

Seeds - Sunflower, pumpkin, pepita, sesame - Digestive time approx. 2 hours.
Nuts - Almonds, filberts, peanuts (raw), cashews, brazil, walnuts, pecans etc. - 2 1/2 to 3 hours to digest.

Dairy

Skim milk, cottage or low fat pot cheese or ricotta - approx. 90 min. digestion time whole milk cottage cheese - 120 min. digestion whole milk hard cheese - 4 to 5 hours digestion time

Animal proteins

Egg yolk - 30 min. digestion time
Whole egg - 45 min.
Fish - cod, scrod, flounder, sole seafood - 30 min. digestion time
Fish - salmon, salmon trout, herring, (more fatty fish) - 45 min. to 60 digestion time
Chicken - 1½ to 2 hours digestion time (without skin)
Turkey - 2 to 2 ¼ hours digestion time (without skin)
Beef, lamb - 3 to 4 hours digestion time
Pork - 4½ to 5 hours digestion time

EAT SMALLER AMOUNT - FEWER VARIETIES
The smaller the amount of a particular food eaten, the less is the digestive time for that food. The greater the amount of a food eaten, the more is the digestive time prolonged.

..... Remember the less you mix and the fewer the varieties you use, the easier it is to digest and the less you will be tempted to overeat. The greater the variety, the greater the tendency to overeat.
In experiments with dogs, - 1 variety was given, the dog ate and was satisfied. Another variety was given and he ate that too. Then another and he ate more. This continued till he was so loaded with food he could hardly move. Each new variety restimulated the appetite over and over again. .....


THE IMPORTANCE OF BLENDED SALADS
Due to the liquification of vegetables by blending:
1 - Absorption and assimilation of its vitamins, minerals proteins etc. is increased to approximately 5 times as compare to eating and chewing the salad.
2 - A blended salad will digest and leave the stomach in 15 to 20 min. compared to 30 to 60 minutes for a tossed salad eaten whole.
3 - To avoid oxidation during the blending, when the whirl-pool begins to form, stop the blender, pour it in a dish and begin to eat it. The oxidation is no more than when the salad is thoroughly masticated before swallowing.
4 - For people who have difficulty with handling of roughage (as in ulcers, colitis etc.), or digestion of raw food, blending it usually solves the problem.
5 - Since digestion and assimilation of vegetables becomes greatly simplified when blended, the energy saved on digestion can make the difference between lingering illness and rapid recovery in serious cases.

Conservation at energy in the digestive process is the key to all healing. (Success in healing is measured in terms of energy available. This was known by the early masters of Natural Hygiene) .....


BASIC PURPOSE IS SAVING ENERGY
..... Energy is the most important factor needed for recovery of health and it must be conserved at all costs and not wasted in unnecessary digestion. Sequential eating will maximize the conservation of energy without fail.

Try it - feel the difference - and you'll never go back to your old ways - I promise you that!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
Food Combining According to Dr. Flora...
John Rose (---.59.51.208.Dial1.Houston1.Level3.net)
Date: 11-17-02 08:13

Re: Anne Wigmore and food combining
drflora3rd (---.mia.bellsouth.net)
Date: 02-08-02 01:13

She felt that as long as watermelon, papaya or apples were juiced or blended, there was no problem in combining them with greens and other things. Her only "no no" was no almond cream, pine nut or seed cheese, etc. with avocado. I've been doing it for 32 years now with no problems and no deficiency or bloating or energy loss.

And, she was a stickler for ensalavating wheatgrass for a full two minutes before swallowing, chewing vigorously all the while! Every chew provided digestive juices to get it into the bloodstream as quickly as possible. She didn't want anyone to dilute it with anything or mix it with anything and not to use it and eat within an hour. In Boston, I remember a weakened man who had cancer and was being called by his doctor who frantically requested a blood transfusion. We thanked him and kept on giving him wheatgrass juice. Second day call. Third day call, and by then his veins and arteries were showing good color, he had strength and was on the mend. The doctor stopped calling when his patient reported the incredible turnaround. Amazing, what! But, then I don't try to combine the first three with grains (since I don't use them) or root vegetables (since I don't use them). If I did, I'd have problems. What she taught me, works for me. Try it and let me know if it works for you too. Remember, what we were doing initially was for so-called terminally ill people. It worked for them, and it works for me and I'm healthy. I'm also just plain selfish with my body; I have so much to do, I don't want to lose energy or lose time by having to sleep too much after eating unblended food. By the way, thanks for your patience with me until we got through with the grant proposal. I was unable to answer all of your questions except in shifts!
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

Peace and Love..........John

This just clarifies my beliefs even further: 1- I ate 3 small salads today but felt bloated.. did not slow down and chew properly.

2- I need to learn how to stop eating out of boredom or stress.

3- I need a flippin blender for heavens sake or a chopper.

4- I need to accept myself as I am and stop comparing to others.

Thanks for the beautiful reminder

Peace

I pay attention to food combining because food digests much easier for me when they are properly combined. However, with cooked foods and using spices and condiments (say like salt & pepper, or garlic), food combining is less important.

Here is an opposing postion to food combining by a Nature Cure author who says food combining is a fallacy.

==========================
THE FALLACY OF THE FOOD COMBINATION THEORY
by
Ken Jaffrey

The theory of food combination that is embraced by some natural food enthusiasts is invalid. I believe that the idea that these food combinations are harmful cannot be supported either in theory or practice.

It is claimed that acid foods and starchy foods should not be eaten at the same meal and that protein foods and starchy foods should not be eaten at the same meal. There are about twenty or more other combinations that are said to be incompatible or harmful.

The fallacy of these claims is clearly dealt with by Prof. Edmond Szekely on Pages 170 to 176 of his book MEDICIME TOMORROW. The reader is urged to consult this book before reading any further.

It is said in justification of the food combination theory that we should not eat acid foods such as citrus fruits or proteins such as eggs, cheese or nuts at the same meal as carbohydrates (starches) such as bread, potato or rice.

It is claimed that carbohydrates are digested to a certain extent by the ptyalin in the saliva and that they digest best in an alkaline medium.

It is claimed that when we eat acid foods this causes the saliva to become acid and thus interferes with the action of the ptyalin on the carbohydrates. This theory looks most attractive on the surface but a little research will prove otherwise.

In order to understand what goes on in the digestive system, including the mouth, stomach and duodenum, it is necessary to understand a little elementary physiology.

First of all, what is saliva and what does it do?

Saliva is a mixture of several liquids secreted by the parotid glands, submaxillary glands and sub-lingual glands in the mouth.

Saliva contains water, mucin, ptyalin (amylase) which converts starch to maltose, an erepsin which is an enzyme that converts polypeptides into amino acids.

The enzyme, catalase converts hydrogen peroxide into water.

Oxidase, another enzyme has many diverse actions to perform.

The final component in this complicated mixture of enzymes is tributryinase that converts fats into butyric acid.

The saliva varies from slightly alkaline to slightly acid.

The digestive action of ptyalin on starch occurs best in a slightly acid medium at a pH of 6.5.

These are all hard physiological facts.

Incidentally, starch cannot be digested unless the cellulose envelope surrounding the starch has been burst either by chewing or cooking.

In most books devoted to food combination theory it is assumed that saliva is simply water, mucin and ptyalin. The other enzymes are never mentioned. Saliva is NOT simply water, mucin and ptyalin.

There are in fact five other very important enzymes, namely erepsin, maltose, catalase, oxidase and tributryinase as well.

I have listed above some of the functions which they perform and they are all equally as important as that carried out by the ptyalin in the partial digestion of starches.

When we eat food it is reduced to an emulsion by the action of chewing and mixing with the saliva.

During the brief period in the mouth, various compounds in the food such as starch, proteins and fats are partially digested or broken down slightly by the combined action of the six enzymes in the saliva.

The mixture (partially digested) is now passed into the stomach where starch digestion still proceeds but at a diminished rate.

In the stomach we have hydrochloric acid, pepsin, ereptic protease, rennin and lipase.

The digestive processes in the stomach are very complicated and deal mainly with the emulsification of fats and the breakdown of protein and mineral matter.

From the stomach the mixture now passes to the duodenum where the stomach acid is neutralized and the fats, proteins and starches proceed to full digestion with the addition of the pancreatic juices and bile.

We can see that the digestion of food is not a simple chemical action.

It is a combination of more than twenty-four separate chemical processes. These are further complicated by many interactions.

To say that saliva is alkaline in reaction and that starch digestion is its only function is not correct.

The saliva varies from mildly alkaline to mildly acid.

To assume that only an alkaline condition of the saliva will favour starch digestion is wrong.

To assume that only one kind of digestion goes on in the mouth is also wrong.

If the saliva were wholly alkaline then the other five enzymes (which carry on their functions in an acid medium) would not be able to function.

The fallacy of food combinations is evident by the fact that it is not possible to get any food that is solely an acid.

A protein regarded as an acid food, contains starches and proteins as well as acids.

Wheat, which is usually and rightly regarded as a starchy food contains also acids and proteins.

Nuts, which are usually regarded as Proteins, contain large amounts of starch and fats.

It would be almost impossible to get foods that did not combine acids, starches, proteins and fat.

Nature has already mixed them all together in nearly ALL foods eaten by man.

Much confusion arises in the food combination theory because students have disregarded the irrefutable facts of human physiology.

If human saliva WAS a simple mixture of water, mucin and ptyalin - and IF starch digestion took place ONLY in an alkaline medium, then there could be some justification for the theory.

Since nature has inextricably mixed acids, starches, proteins and fats in most of our foods, and since starches DO digest in a slightly acid medium, and since the food is held in the mouth for such a short time, it becomes clear that the food combination theory lacks any real scientific basis.

Another bonus for the food conscious person is the fact that no harmful results occur when such mixtures as proteins and starches or acids and starches are eaten.

If the dire consequences that are predicted did follow, then the people who consumed the allegedly incompatible mixtures would not recover from serious disease as dramatically as they now do.

It must be admitted, an incompatibility MAY exist when foods such as milk, cream, cheese, butter and eggs are indiscriminately mixed at one meal, but this occurs for a different reason altogether.

It can be stated that all foods of the vegetable kingdom, if eaten raw, be eaten at the same meal without causing incompatibility.

I hope that my readers will study closely the arguments put forth by Prof. Szekely and that the conclusion will be reached that the food combination theory unnecessarily complicates what should be a simple process, the eating of natural food.

Interesting points and counterpoints, John and Prana; things to keep in mind and which further punctuate the idea that one must listen to one's own body!