I bought raw/hulless oat groats, and I may get around to fully sprouting them (soaked some and I think they fermented) but I also added some unsoaked/unsprouted to my cashew milk. A lot of the info I can find is either on raw-fooders using regular oats or full on sprouting oat groats. Is it OK to NOT sprout the raw ones? Anyone try it both ways and feel a big difference? I may eventually get to where I am sprouting everything but I'm just not there yet. Thanks in advance.

YES! I'll hopefully go into why another day when l have more time.

Best to sprout oats. But the crazy thing with sprouting oat groats is that they ferment easily because the hulls have been removed, so sprout them with care and attention and wash regularly. Growing oat groat grass is a tricky job.

Oats are full of indigestable proteins and probably lots of other anti-nutrients. Sprouting will lower some levels of anti-nutrients and concentrated nutrients, so best to do that. Soaking isn't as efficent. You wouldn't want to be having soaked grains as part of a long term diet, l recall reading about cultures that did this and paid the price in poor health.

Why not ferment the oat groat sprouts in water and drink the liquid when having a smoothie or something. Helps the digestion due to the good bacteria. But be careful not to contaminate the rejuvalic drink.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
You wouldn't want to be
> having soaked grains as part of a long term diet,
> l recall reading about cultures that did this and
> paid the price in poor health.

curious about this statement can you expand on this

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

What about sunflower greens? I am considering starting to grow sunflower greens. And lentil sprouts and fenugreek. I am especially interested in fenugreek for the smell it imparts to the body. Some say it makes people smell like maple syrup.

Jgunn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> You wouldn't want to be
> > having soaked grains as part of a long term
> diet,
> > l recall reading about cultures that did this
> and
> > paid the price in poor health.
>
> curious about this statement can you expand on
> this

l would like to get back to this hopefully another day. There are lots of interesting things that can be said on anti-nutrients and insolable and soluable fibers and bioavailability of nutrients. I'm also looking into the effects of various fiber on stomach and intestinal linings. It's a really big subject and very interesting.

I am starting to come to some really startling conclusions about the raw food diet and nutrition. It's looking more and more like fermented sprouted nuts and seeds and sea vegatables are the core foods to rely on for nutrition (concentrated available bio-nutrition with lower fiber levels - a key point). With other foods like veggies, fruits, legumes and grains it increasingly is looking like you are getting high fiber levels and low bio-nutrients. The more l study this the more l know that my intuition is right.

I want to talk more on this another day to make sure my opinion is reasonably sound.

Eventhough l say thse things above, there are a whole lot more factors l can bring into it to make a strong statement that fruits, veggies, grains and legumes are to be used sparingly. It's fascinating to study this stuff, and l do try to be balanced and fair in what l say. Some of conclusions l have come to have gone against my loves (sprouted legumes and algaes and too much green juice), but l have to accept that l haven't been doing everything perfect and changes need to be made to my diet. It's important to be un-bias when studying this stuff and lay it all out on the table. It's been hard coming to some realisations.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2013 12:10AM by The Sproutarian Man.

Ideally it is increasingly looking like that an optimal diet is something like this:

* decent amounts of distilled water to detox stored inorganic minerals and build ups of material from antinutrients
* someRIPE FRESH fruits
* 5 tablespoons of sprouted/fermented seeds for a main meal of the day mixed with fermented grain sprout water
* some carefully selected sea vegetables mixed with fermented grain sprout water
* some blue green and green algaes
* some sprouted and fermented legume sprouts mixed with fermented grain sprout water (the distilled water will hopefully overcome the problems with these foods)
* sprouted green juices mainly from sprouted seeds, but limited grass/pea shoot/legume sprout juices
* some occasional sprouted/fermented nuts soaked for a week and then put in fermnted grain sprout water for a day before eating.

No vegetables
No sprouted grains unless grown into grass juice ir used as a fermented grain sprout water.

This type of eating seems ideal. Eating highly nutritious fresh foods high in electrical frequency and lactic/citric acid while keeping fiber to the lower side of medium levels while reducing anti-nutrients. Eating one main meal per day seems the key tied in with weight resistance exercise to keep weight stable, and keeping calories low while improving intestinal bacteria to high levels and keeping detoxed.

I think this type of lifestyle is very powerful and seems to work well and the best l have tried. Eat to 80% full is very important also, and so is a steady mix of sprouted chia sprouts most days.

Sorry to get off topic, but this is important stuff to mention.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2013 12:49AM by The Sproutarian Man.

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder why you still include legume in the
> 'optimal' diet... since legumes do have
> indigestible proteins.

refining the diet is a process that takes time. Idealy one would avoid legumes and have a main meal of fermented sprouted seeds/nuts and some ripe fruit and sea veggies before taking things even further to possibly a skint fruitarian diet, but l strongly feel one's enlightenment and spiritual connection GREATLY plays an important role in this process. I am not all the way yet so l do feel l need a top up of legume sprouts in the evening (a light dinner). It's all a process of development of the mind, spirit and body. When our mind and spirit becomes more developed the powers in the cosmos will change our body (our suit) to take on more advanced functions so we can live on less food and begin producing more nutrients as hormones imo. It takes time and development to get there. You can't think about these things, it is more about connected guidance, but some education does help.


>
> Is it the high amount of fat? Do fats really harm?
First of all/...eating a small meal once a day of good fats aren't so bad, and when we ferment and sprout the high fats seeds/nuts the concentrated fats are converted to fatty acids. I think a high fatty acid diet is the key, and there are good info which points to this. There are things l have also come across which indicate that fats aren't as bad as we think they are, but we still want to keep concentrated fats levels under control and consume good amounts of fatty acids. .



>
> How sustainable is the higher fat diet? I guess
> we'd have to also look into that.
Not sure on a high concentrated fat diet, but a high fatty acid diet is great.


>
> Also in general, Im not sure a sproutarian diet is
> all that sustainable in the long run.
It takes time to make it sustainable and do well on it. Many internal changes need to happen in the body and with the mind and spirit.



It seems
> that it works now simply because we have sources
> to get a lot of seeds, but in an ideal society
> would all that much seeds be available all year
> round or would it be better to grow fruit?

It would probably be better to eat ripe fruit, but most wouldn't have the spiritual development, mind developement and body development to make that happen. The sproutarian diet is a process on the way to getting to that point. We can't force it because it is a process. When the cosmos leads us we will know when we are ready. When your body is able to handle the changes the cosmos powers speak to you and guide you to the changes. It's not up to you to force the changes in your diet, the cosmos tells you when your suit has been upgraded. My suit hasn't been upgraded where l can ditch those legumes yet, but when `they' tell me, l will know l will be able to do it.

I never try to improve my diet, l let it happen naturally. When they send me the signal to make the changes, l do. l am convinced that a spiritual connection is the key to success. It's paramount to get that spiritual enlightenment through associating with a high level spiritual master or through detox via distilled water so you see the `light' and receive guidance. l was lucky in that l had a high level spiritual master give me back some of my original powers and l now see the light 24/7 and hear the sound, but most have to do it via detox and meditation. Unfortunately most folks don't have any power, that's why they only see darkness when they go to sleep at night...they are spiritually sick and left alone to rot in darkness and no-one is there for them because they have severed their connection. Their future is bleak unless they clean the lineal gland and start to see that `light' again.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2013 03:10AM by The Sproutarian Man.

Beware...soaking oat groats is a BAD idea!!!

It has been hard finding studies on raw soaked grains without the husk, so it has been hard to conlude too much about them. But here is some bad news on soaked hulled grains like the common wheat/barley/oats and rye.

I strongly feel this is just the tip of the iceberg with hulled grains.

Lectins - beware

Here are a series of articles and research documents which discuss the problems of lectins. And yes, dehulling grains doesn't reduce lectin content.

Lectins
Their Damaging Role in Intestinal Health, Rheumatoid Arthritis and Weight Loss

By Carolyn Pierini, CLS (ASCP), CNC
[www.vrp.com]

Antinutritional properties of plant lectins
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Lectin-Based Food Poisoning: A New Mechanism of Protein Toxicity
[www.plosone.org]

Proof that dehusking (oat groats) doesn't remove lectins
[www.google.com.au]


The thing to remember is...don't eat raw soaked grains. The lectins are just one problem, it is actually far far worse than that, but more on that another day....i'll talk about proteins and sugars and a host of other nasties.

The only way to consume grains is to sprout and ferment them. THIS is king and scientifically sound...nothing is better than this.

Actually, check out this big daddy study on grains. And yes, not all protein is in the husk (only about a quarter), so this study is very relevant to your situation.
[www.bioline.org.br]

We'll go much further into this another day. These links (especially the last two) are very very important. This conversation is just at the very beginning...hasn't even scratched the scratch yet.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2013 12:18AM by The Sproutarian Man.

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> would it be better to make rejuvelac with unhulled
> grain?
Yes!

They probably would sprout faster and
> better that's for sure.
Yes, and avoid negative unstable bacteria.

That last study produced may not seem directly relevant regarding protein digestability, but it is very relevant. There are a whole host of anti nutritional factors which come into it which makes sprouting (unhulled grains) and fermenting much better as a remover of anti nutrients as a whole. Now...sure hulling has advantages over the husk grains when soaked for some nutrients in isolated cases, but not overall when the entire picture is taken into account. We need to go for the kill, not a half kill. + we can go for the kill for the entire diet...a half kill won't solve many of the diet problems as a whole.

This is highly exciting stuff to talk about, and the grains aren't the Mr Nasties of the diet like many think they are provided they are processed properly. The real nasties are the modern day non gluten grains such as Quinoa and Millet because they have limited use when sprouted and fermented (unlike wheat, barley and rye). The major health institutes like to promote non gluten grains, but that is a big mistake if one includes regular grain in his diet because the high tannin content of those cereals inhibit phytase action which inhibit bioavailablity of very very important minerals. All the best sprouting books and websites overplay the role of sprouting and ignore the real science of true food preparation, but it's about time the truth came out and we got serious about proper food preparation techniques. And yes, gluten grains can be treated effectively so celiac patients don't suffer the intolerances like reported.

Check out this!

Highly Efficient Gluten Degradation by Lactobacilli and Fungal Proteases during Food Processing: New Perspectives for Celiac Disease (a complex study)
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Sourdough Bread Made from Wheat and Nontoxic Flours and Started with Selected Lactobacilli Is Tolerated in Celiac Sprue Patients
[aem.asm.org]

Some easier reading below:
Sourdough Bread for Gluten Intolerance?
[www.localharvest.org]

Fermented Wheat Protein and Gluten Intolerance
[gluten.lovetoknow.com]


No-one talks about this exciting stuff in the raw food world, but that is going to change. We need to bring back the old methods of fermenting and sprouting...THIS IS THE KEY!!! Get the big nasty foods high in anti-nutrients, tame the savage beast and get all the goodies it has to offer.

Forget eating loads of fruit with all the disaccharide and polysaccharide sugars and wearing down your enzyme supply (my opinion). Ferment all the high carb/starch foods so those disaccharide and polysaccharide sugars are broken down by external sources to save deleting your enzyme supply (my opinion). Eat high enzyme foods via sprouting and fermenting and reap all the high nutrients that go with it, and minimise fruit consumption. PERFECT!!!

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2013 01:09AM by The Sproutarian Man.

This diet l talk about greatly refines Dr Jubb's and Dr Clement's diet ideas. As far as l can see this diet is as good as it gets for an average person. This is high level eating that far surpasses anything else out there.

I can see big weaknesses in every single diet, but l reckon this one l talk about has hit the nail right on the head, and l can feel the results. I am stunned and staggered about how good it really is, and the science seems to be backing up everything l say too.

WE can even get vitamin K2 from this diet of which l speak. Anything the pro meat/dairy eaters say vegans can't get, i've been able to find a solution so far. Ann Wigmore was the closest to get to the truth of any raw vegan diet guru so far, but this idea is taking it to another level. I am trying to find weaknesses in this diet l have developed, but l can't find any so far. No diet is perfect, but this seems to be the best way of eating any average person can do in the modern age.

I have combined ideas of the long lived people (fermentation), food science processing techniques, Ann Wigmore, Dr Brian Clement, Dr Jubb and my ideas and it seems like a real breakthrough for the raw food vegan world. Another important thing is that we don't need to eat much.

l am the most excited l have ever been. I know l have stumbled onto something amazing - i've been guided to this. l have so much to write for my website...i'm going to break this apart....got hundreds of pages of research to refine down, and got thousands of pages yet to go.

Ann Wigmore was really the star of the show. l owe her a lot. All l am doing is refining her ideas.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2013 01:36AM by The Sproutarian Man.

Quote

WE can even get vitamin K2 from this diet of which l speak.

Can you send me those studies? This has been the only real weakness I've found on the vegan diet. My intuition strongly tells me that it can be gotten through eating fermented foods but I have yet to see any research supporting that* (been too busy researching other things to focus on it).

*With the exception of miso (fermented soybeans).

I am STRONGLY in support of fermenting sprouted foods to bring the diet up to the highest levels possible, and I do think this is the missing link. Funnily enough I had these very same ideas (returning rejuvelac to the diet, fermenting sprouted foods in rejuvelac for a couple of days, etc) months ago but didn't pay too much attention. I thought it was just me thinking of these things by myself, but now I suspect otherwise (had I known the true origin of the ideas I wouldn't have been so hesitant). It's a shame I didn't follow through with it but I'm glad you did.

At the same time I thought of a way to overcome much of the damage of blending through fermentation by making fermented sprout milk. You blend the sprouts with rejuvelac and let sit for 16-24 hours at the same temperature used for rejuvelac, at which point it should have become quite sour (a sure sign it's teeming with lactic-acid producing bacteria). You can ferment it for less time if you preferment the grains (soak in rejuvelac for a day or two), which should be even more powerful but I haven't experimented with it yet. I feel that this method (especially if you preferment the grains) should remove virtually 100% of the anti-nutrient nasties and end up being FAR more nutritious then ordinary sprout milk, even more nutritious then sprout milk made with fermented grains. You hardly need to do any digesting at all.

Living Food Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WE can even get vitamin K2 from this diet of which
> l speak.
>
> Can you send me those studies? This has been the
> only real weakness I've found on the vegan diet.
> My intuition strongly tells me that it can be
> gotten through eating fermented foods but I have
> yet to see any research supporting that* (been too
> busy researching other things to focus on it).
>
> *With the exception of miso (fermented soybeans).

l will send the info to you, but there is not much to go on. It looks like Corn (Polenta) and rice (Tempeh) and Semolina (wheat) can produce the Bacillus subtilis bacteria needed for some vitamin K2.
[www.conference.net.au]

But ole Dr.Hiroyuki Sumi (known as Dr Natto) comes up something exciting and new in this great little link (easy to read) by saying we can use adzuki beans, black beans, kidney beans and even.....*drum roll*.... fermented sunflower seeds for efficient production of K2 [as l pull a rabbit out of my hat].
[www.jafra.gr.jp]

Only certain plants have the Bacillus subtilis needed via fermentation to make it.
s like humans can make K2 themselves if they eat a clean diet and keep bacteria levels good in the intestine by eating fermented raw foods.

Living Food Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am STRONGLY in support of fermenting sprouted
> foods to bring the diet up to the highest levels
> possible, and I do think this is the missing link.
> Funnily enough I had these very same ideas
> (returning rejuvelac to the diet, fermenting
> sprouted foods in rejuvelac for a couple of days,
> etc) months ago but didn't pay too much attention.

Wow, that is very intesting. That's how things are supposed to work in the universe - multiple people come up with the same idea all at once, and that's what has happened. See, it's not us coming up with the information, it is the information being sent to us.

The higher powers have directed me to everything like they did with Kulvinskas and Wigmore. This has nothing to do with me, l am just following orders and spreading the message. They told me almost 20 years ago that they wanted me to do major things in raw food nutrition and diet and l said `no, l am too young and too dumb to take on a big job' and l turned my back on it (no internet back then to help either and Kulvinskas seemed to know far too much in those days and l felt wayyy out of my depth. I did lots of sprouting and fermenting back then , but not to the level of recently.

> I thought it was just me thinking of these things
> by myself, but now I suspect otherwise (had I
> known the true origin of the ideas I wouldn't have
> been so hesitant). It's a shame I didn't follow
> through with it but I'm glad you did.
It was all meant to happen and come out in the open. It's a done deal now.


>
> At the same time I thought of a way to overcome
> much of the damage of blending through
> fermentation by making fermented sprout milk. You
> blend the sprouts with rejuvelac and let sit for
> 16-24 hours at the same temperature used for
> rejuvelac,

Yes yes yes. That can work! There are science studies which show that fermenting preserves the nutrient losses. So people can even cut up garden picked vegetables and ferment them and eat them a week later with no nutritional loss. Wow!

I do something different. l might soak lentil sprouts for 1.5 days and sunflower for 2 days in barley/wheat or rye rejuvalic and then blend. But...the thing is...blending time is much much shorter because the fiber is partially broken down by fermentation, + science talks about this too. There is some very intesting stuff l have found on fiber and my initial intuition is getting shown to be right the longer l research into the subject of fiber. Fiber is a mind blowing subject and l know that we aren't meant to be eating fiber from most vegetables or mature plants, and l am slowly gathering information so l can finally make a good argument about it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2013 05:37AM by The Sproutarian Man.

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well.. having fermented whole sprouted sesame
> seeds in rejuvelac for about a day, and eating it
> whole, really cut my digesting time for about 3
> hrs? Or it may have just caused me to void but...
> still. 3 hrs if true compared to the 8 or so hrs
> it used to take me is great.

l would love to see how you go with fermented mung bean sprouts soaked in wheat or rye sprout rejuvalic for 1.5 - 2 days after 5 days of sprouting. It would be interesting to see how you go with it.

Quote

With the exception of miso (fermented soybeans)

Oops, I meant natto *sheepish grin*

Quote

l will send the info to you, but there is not much to go on. It looks like Corn (Polenta) and rice (Tempeh) and Semolina (wheat) can produce the Bacillus subtilis bacteria needed for some vitamin K2.
[www.conference.net.au]


Only certain plants have the Bacillus subtilis needed via fermentation to make it

The study you mentioned brings up a couple of points that I think are important. The first is that it doesn't look like rejuvelac would provide K2 because the bacillus subtilis bacteria need to be grown using solid state fermentation, not liquid state fermentation. The other question is whether these foods (corn, semolina, etc) are able to produce the bacillus subtilis bacteria naturally, because in the study they were inoculated with the bacteria. If you just leave them to ferment without inoculation by the baccilus subtilis organism, would they still cultivate it or not? The study doesn't say. From that study it seems more to me that the important thing isn't the food itself, but rather the particle size, moisture content, and nutrient availability. Probably a very wide array of foods could culture bacillus subtilis if they were inoculated with it, but what we want to know is which ones do it naturally. Although if necessary you could get the bacteria commercially (or by making natto), use it to inoculate your first batch, and then use that batch and subsequent batches as your new starter.

When making natto the soybeans are cooked, frequently for a long period of time. This is probably becasue the cooking process makes the nutrients more available and the starch much easier for the bacteria to digest. We know that sprouting does much the same thing, but bacteria still seem to thrive on cooked food more then raw sprouted food, likely because of the changes in the type of starch. How will the production of K2 in foods be effected by using raw foods instead of cooked? Lots of question and not many answers.

Quote

But ole Dr.Hiroyuki Sumi (known as Dr Natto) comes up something exciting and new in this great little link (easy to read) by saying we can use adzuki beans, black beans, kidney beans and even.....*drum roll*.... fermented sunflower seeds for efficient production of K2 [as l pull a rabbit out of my hat].
[www.jafra.gr.jp]

That's GREAT news!!! Black beans and kidney beans really shouldn't be eaten raw, although maybe fermentation would remove the natural toxins and make them safe. But the adzuki beans and sunflower seeds show great promise.

Quote

like humans can make K2 themselves if they eat a clean diet and keep bacteria levels good in the intestine by eating fermented raw foods.

I agree, and I think this is probably the easiest way considering all of the questions raised above. But for beginners to the diet it may be a good idea to try culturing bacillus subtilis using a process similar to natto production with adzuki beans or sunflower seeds, but I do think it is important to use an inoculant to guarantee that the K2 will be present.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2013 03:50PM by Living Food.

There's even a study saying that certain varieties of LABs (lactic acid producing bacteria) can produce menaquinones (different varieties of K2), but unfortunately I can only access the abstract. [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Different menaquinones seem to have different effects and absorption rates in the human body, though, with Mk-7 being the most predominant in human blood and bone.

I can tell that I'll need to do a lot of research on this topic.

If you were going to try and get vitamin K2 by fermentation, I think sunflower seeds would be much better then adzuki beans because K2 is a fat-soluble nutrient. It does make a lot of sense, but maybe the bacteria grows much better on starchy foods for some reason so more research needs to be done.

But if it does grow fine on fatty foods, I think the ultimate way might be to do the fermentation with sesame seeds, because of the synergy between vitamin K2 and calcium absorption. A food very high in both has MAJOR potential!!!!

Quote

I do something different. l might soak lentil sprouts for 1.5 days and sunflower for 2 days in barley/wheat or rye rejuvalic and then blend. But...the thing is...blending time is much much shorter because the fiber is partially broken down by fermentation, + science talks about this too. There is some very intesting stuff l have found on fiber and my initial intuition is getting shown to be right the longer l research into the subject of fiber. Fiber is a mind blowing subject and l know that we aren't meant to be eating fiber from most vegetables or mature plants, and l am slowly gathering information so l can finally make a good argument about it.

I do believe that fermenting after blending is much more powerful because of the vast different in surface area available to the bacteria (fermentation will proceed MANY times as rapidly after blending), so fermenting for 16-24 hours after blending gives you the same benefit as fermenting for many days before blending, and it fixes the problem of nutritional losses from blending. But I am intrigued by how blending time is greatly lessened if you ferment the food beforehand, and I think the best thing is to combine the two techniques. I truly believe this could be exponentially more powerful even then just fermenting before blending. Give it a try.

Even fermenting for 16-24 hours may be unnecessary if you're using already fermented sprouts, maybe 12 hours would be enough. Whip up a batch the night before, cover it, and try it the next day.


-----------
I'm not sure of the effects of doing this with seeds...the fatty acids would be subject to oxidation, but I think that would be overpowered by the benefits provided from the fermentation (like it is with starchy foods). But I know it will be extremely beneficial for grains and legumes.

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> How about making rejuvelac out of sprouted
> soybeans and just drinking that

l think that shows lots of promise. Sprout the soy beans (l find it very hard to sprout them because they are very tender and rot easily) and soak it in grain rejuvalic for a couple of days and drink it. l wouldn't make soy cheese because the high protein/high alkaline/high hybridised content makes them hard to digest.

So yes, soy bean/wheat rejuvalic once or twice a week perhaps??

You can only get reliable amounts of vitamin D from the sun or supplementing. But if you rely on the sun the angle of the sun needs to be higher than 40 degrees in the sky and you can't shower every day (takes 48 hours for the body to absorb the oils to make D3). Vitamin D is one of the toughest nutrients to get.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2013 10:05PM by The Sproutarian Man.

Living Food Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There's even a study saying that certain varieties
> of LABs (lactic acid producing bacteria) can
> produce menaquinones (different varieties of K2),
> but unfortunately I can only access the abstract.
> [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
>
> Different menaquinones seem to have different
> effects and absorption rates in the human body,
> though, with Mk-7 being the most predominant in
> human blood and bone.
>
> I can tell that I'll need to do a lot of research
> on this topic.

Yes, l will look up that study one day in a university library. There is a bunch of studies l want to look up.

The science is very limited on the subject of K2 in plants and l feel sure there are probably many foods that can produce K2 by fermentation.



Living Food Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> But if it does grow fine on fatty foods, I think
> the ultimate way might be to do the fermentation
> with sesame seeds, because of the synergy between
> vitamin K2 and calcium absorption. A food very
> high in both has MAJOR potential!!!!

Something tells me that fermented sesame seeds could have K2 also. l will do a search on this one day, but l don't expect to find much because the science is very basic. Everything is about natto, pthhh.

It's interesting how Ann Wigmore survived well as a raw vegan and how she included certain things in her diet like:

* fermented soy beans (not so much this food later on in life)
* fermented sunflower and sesame
* rejuvalic
* purslane weeds (had lots of those)
* sea weeds

See, she had the K2, the EPA fatty acids and all that great bacteria. She also had an abundance of living foods high in everything. Not many of the raw fooders are getting those things. She was a true legend and her intuition was spot on. She used to meditate while she worked. Her story was incredible.

Living Food Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> At the same time I thought of a way to overcome
> much of the damage of blending through
> fermentation by making fermented sprout milk. You
> blend the sprouts with rejuvelac and let sit for
> 16-24 hours at the same temperature used for
> rejuvelac,

that would be especially good for legumes which have the phytic acid all throughout the seed. Still, l am not so keen on doing it that way (not sure why).

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Like I've mentioned before... probably a more
> 'natural' way of grinding foods would be better.
> Like perhaps a manaul food grinder or mill which
> may or may not resemble mortar and pestle.

Yes. l used to do that alot. l need to get back to that. It's perfect!!!

I've thought about it too. I do think it's better then blending, but doesn't the food have to be dry to go through a mill? You'd have to wait until the sprouts dried off before grinding them.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Forget eating loads of fruit with all the
> disaccharide and polysaccharide sugars and wearing
> down your enzyme supply (my opinion). Ferment all
> the high carb/starch foods so those disaccharide
> and polysaccharide sugars are broken down by
> external sources to save deleting your enzyme
> supply (my opinion). Eat high enzyme foods via
> sprouting and fermenting and reap all the high
> nutrients that go with it, and minimise fruit
> consumption. PERFECT!!!

My intuition about avoiding large amounts of bought fruit might not be so crazy afterall. Here is some science suggesting that not only do high tannins reduce iron absorption, but it actually might inhibit growth of friendly bacteria in the intestines.

Mechanism of inhibition of tannic acid and related compounds on the growth of intestinal bacteria
[www.sciencedirect.com]

And given many are eating unripe fruits high in disaccharide
and polysaccharide sugars along with high tannin levels, l can see how this can be a long term disaster because it can possibly drain the bodies ability to produce enzymes and good bacteria. And apart from that, fresh fruit is not being eaten.

It sounds much better to reduce tannins, have fresh food and to get good bacteria via fermenting and to reduce most anti nutrients and break down those complex sugars. See...no diets are really doing this effectively, and even the fruit diet looks very risky because no fruit is eaten as it should be (fresh). People have failed hideously on high fruit diets, and imo it could be because of some of these important factors l mention. But there are many other factors which could explain why natural hygene diets are failing also.

The raw vegan diets out there are disasters waiting to happen unless many very important issues are addressed. But no one ever talks about these things in the raw food world, but l am going to make sure people start thinking about these things so diets can be done better for those who want to do a raw vegan diet.

Pity l can't delete the above post because it is not as clear cut as l said above.

Growth-inhibitory effects of Galla Rhois-derived tannins on intestinal bacteria
[onlinelibrary.wiley.com]

or

[onlinelibrary.wiley.com]

Too hard to conclude what l did in the post above. Sorry about that. But still, they can inhibit digestive enzymes, so best to have them in only moderate amounts. Tannins aren't bad, but too much of them is not good.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2013 11:32PM by The Sproutarian Man.

Barley, sorghum, rye and oat proteins have lower digestibilities (77-88%) than those of rice, maize and wheat (95-100%). The biological value and net protein utilization of cereal proteins is relatively low due to deficiencies in essential amino acids and low protein availability (Chaven and Kadam 1989). Methods that can be employed to improve the nutritive value of cereals include traditional genetic selection, genetic engineering, amino acid and other nutrient fortification, complementaion with other proteins (notably legumes), milling, heating, germination and fermentation.


[www.fao.org]

Also make sure to read about anti-nutrients at the bottom of the link.

Nutritional improvement of cereals by sprouting
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Science stating that fermentation and sprouting is best for grains
[www.pjbs.org]

This is just some stuff, there is lots more stuff to show without a shadow of a doubt that fermentation and sprouting will tame the savage beast within the foods.

www.thesproutarian.com

ANTINUTRIENTS AND TOXIC COMPONENTS IN CEREALS

Cereals and other plant foods may contain significant amounts of toxic or antinutritional substances. In this regard, legumes are a particularly rich source of natural toxicants including protease inhibitors, amylase inhibitors, metal chelates, flatus factors, hemagglutinins, saponins, cyanogens, lathyrogens, tannins, allergens, acetylenic furan and isoflavonoid phytoalexins (Pariza 1996). Most cereals contain appreciable amounts of phytates, enzyme inhibitors, and some cereals like sorghum and millet contain large amounts of polyphenols and tannins (Salunkhe et al. 1990). Some of these substances reduce the nutritional value of foods by interfering with mineral bioavailability, and digestibility of proteins and carbohydrates. Since legumes are often consumed together with cereals, proper processing of cereal-legume mixtures should eliminate these antinutrients before consumption (Chaven and Kadam 1989; Reddy and Pierson 1994).

Phytates

Phytic acid is the 1,2,3,4,5,6-hexaphosphate of myoinositol that occurs in discrete regions of cereal grains and accounts for as much as 85% of the total phosphorous content of these grains. Phytate reduces the bioavailability of minerals, and the solubility, functionality and digestibility of proteins and carbohydrates (Reddy et al. 1989). Fermentation of cereals reduces phytate content via the action of phytases that catalyze conversion of phytate to inorganic orthophosphate and a series of myoinositols, lower phosphoric esters of phytate. A 3-phytase appears to be characteristic of microorganisms, while a 6-phytase is found in cereal grains and other plant seeds (Reddy and Pierson 1994).

Tannins

Oligomers of flavan-3-ols and flavan-3,4-diols, called condensed tannins, occur widely in cereals and legumes (Haard and Chism 1996). These compounds are concentrated in the bran fraction of cereals (Salunkhe et al. 1990). Tannin-protein complexes can cause inactivation of digestive enzymes and reduce protein digestibility by interaction of protein substrate with ionizable iron (Salunkhe et al. 1990). The presence of tannins in food can therefore lower feed efficiency, depress growth, decrease iron absorption, damage the mucosal lining of the gastrointestinal tract, alter excretion of cations, and increase excretion of proteins and essential amino acids (Reddy and Pierson 1994). Dehulling, cooking and fermentation reduce the tannin content of cereals and other foods
.
Saponins

These sterol or triterpene glycosides occur widely in cereals and legumes (Shiraiwa et al. 1991). Saponins are detected by their hemolytic activity and surface active properties. Although the notion that they are detrimental to human health has been questioned (Reddy and Pierson 1994), they have been reported to cause growth inhibition (Cheeke 1976).

Enzyme Inhibitors

Protease and amylase inhibitors are widely occurent in seed tissues including cereal grains. Trypsin-, chymotrypsin-, subtilisin-inhibitor, and cysteine-protease inhibitors are present in all major rice cultivars grown in California, although the individual inhibitor amounts are quite varaiable and are concentrated in the bran fraction (Izquerdo-Pulido et al. 1994). They are believed to cause growth inhibition by interfering with digestion, causing pancreatic hypertrophy and metabolic disturbance of sulfur amino acid utilization (Reddy and Pierson 1994). Although these inhibitors tend to be heat stable, there are numerous reports that trypsin inhibitor, chymotrypsin inhibitor, and amylase inhibitor levels are reduced during fermentation (Chaven and Kadam 1989; Reddy and Pierson 1994).


Importance and Benefits of Fermented Cereals

The benefits of fermentation may include improvement in palatability and acceptability by developing improved flavours and textures; preservation through formation of acidulants, and antibacterial compounds; enrichment of nutritive content by microbial synthesis of essential nutrients and improving digestibility of protein and carbohydrates; removal of antinutrients, natural toxicants and mycotoxins.

The content and quality of cereal proteins may be improved by fermentation (Wang and Fields 1978; Cahvan et al. 1988). Natural fermentation of cereals increases their relative nutritive value and available lysine (Hamad and Fields 1979) (Fig. 4). Bacterial fermentations involving proteolytic activity are expected to increase the biological availability of essential amino acids more so than yeast fermentations which mainly degrade carbohydrates (Chaven and Kadam 1989). Starch and fiber tend to decrease during fermentation of cereals (El-Tinay et al. 1979). Although it would not be expected that fermentation would alter the mineral content of the product, the hydrolysis of chelating agents such as phytic acid during fermentation, improves the bioavailability of minerals. Changes in the vitamin content of cereals with fermentation vary according to the fermentation process, and the raw material used in the fermentation. B group vitamins generally show an increase on fermentation (Chavan et al. 1989) (Fig. 5). During the fermentation of maize or kaffircorn in the preparation of kaffir beer, thiamine levels are virtually unchanged, but riboflavin and niacin contents almost double (Steinkraus 1994).

Note: Grains are low in Lysine, but fermenting increases it’s availability and Net Protein Utilisation. Imo it is best not to combine too many foods togeather.