There are lot of good points being made, but there are two I disagree with. The first I disagree with is - citing the odd successful person here or there, such as Brian Clements being a successful raw vegan ( if in fact he really is. Does he take supplements? they are cooked? Has anyone followed him 24 hours a day?).

Some people have such fantastic genetics that they will succeed on any diet, but unless the diet works on 99% of the group trying it out, it is not the reality of the situation.

We should be offering new people coming to this board in search of information the facts, and the real truth. Why not tell them both sides of the story - that for a small minority it works, but for the majority the success rate is very low? Why offer them something that there is a good chance they can't achieve.

The second one being:

As for the big luscious fruit theory, can we expand on this and look at the reality of the situation again. This is a statement that is often made, but can we look at the logic and reality of it.

In the past there were no planted orchards with manicured lawns and the grass was not mowed regularly. The only place humans would have lived on a 100% fruit diet would have been in the tropics, and there all the trees are extremely high. As humans aren't really tree climbers the only bit of fruit they might have gotten was a bit of the low lying fruit, or what fell to the ground - all probably half eaten by the birds, the worms, and the bugs and other insects. We would have had to compete with the all the monkeys, baboons and other apes, as well as the birds and the insects for this fruit.

The above is the reality of rainforests and jungles. You can't transplant current planted orchards and fruit plantations into fantasy worlds of the past - since there weren't any if we were living as the apes, and with them.

And if we really were living there, the other apes used to eat lizards, bugs and insects as well as the occasional road kill from time to time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2013 10:21PM by BJ.

powerlifter Wrote:
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> However the vegan diet wasn't adequate for health
> for many reasons.
FOR YOU MAYBE BUT YOU SHOULDN'T IMPOSE THIS UPON EVERYONE!


There is no
> campaign
CLEARLY THERE IS A CAMPAIGN!
>
> I will critique any philisophy that doesn't hold
> up to commense sense and scientific scrutiny. i will
> continue to critique and critically think about
> these from a non bias perspective.
COMMON SENSE AND SCIENTIFIC SCRUTINY, NON-BIAS? COME ON, YOUR WHOLE SPEW IS BIASED, AND AT TIMES NONSENSICAL! STUDIES ARE WORTHLESS UNLESS YOU USE YOUR COMMON SENSE TO WEED OUT THE BAD STUFF. LET ME ASK YOU WHAT STUDIES HAVE YOU DONE YOURSELF? BECAUSE HAVE SEEN BLOOD WORK DONE BY MANY PEOPLE AT HHI AND IT CHANGES REMARKABLY WHILE ON RAW FOOD DIET. LIVE BLOOD CELL ANALYSIS SHOWS MORE HEALTHY BLOOD CELLS STRONGER IMMUNE SYSTEM ETC. I'M SURE YOU COME BACK WITH SOME OF YOUR FACT CHECKING STUDIES AND WONT TAKE IN CONSIDERATION THAT NOT EVERYONE IS THE SAME AS YOU. YOU CLEARLY ONLY BELIEVE IN WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO YOU AND HAVE NOT TAKEN AN UNBIASED LOOK AT WHAT HAS BEEN DONE AT THE HHI INSTITUTE. THEY CHANGE DIET THEN DO BLOOD WORK. CHANGE SUPLIMENTS THEN DO BLOOD WORK. THEY ARE CONSTANTLY EVOLVING WHAT IS BEING DONE WITH SCIENCE, NON BIAS SCIENCE. YOU THINK YOU ARE GETTING NON BIAS SCIENCE OFF THE INTERNET? YOU KNOW WHAT BRIAN FOUND OUT WHEN TESTING THE POPULAR IMMUNOGLOBULIN G FROM GOATS MILK AS BEING THIS INCREDIBLE IMMUNE SYSTEM ENHANCER? NOTHING THAT'S WHAT. THERE WAS NO IMMUNE ENHANCING PROPERTIES TO IT AT ALL. I DON'T KNOW MANY HEALTHY VEGANS BUT I DO KNOW A FEW AND THEY ARE FINE IN ALL ASPECTS.

je je PL. You are again on your autopilot mode.

here are some quotes from wikipedia

[en.wikipedia.org]

"The American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada said in 2003 that properly planned vegan diets were nutritionally adequate for all stages of life, including pregnancy and lactation. People avoiding meat are reported to have lower body mass index; from this follows lower death rates from ischemic heart disease, lower blood cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and fewer incidences of type 2 diabetes, prostate and colon cancers. The Australian National Health and Medical Research Council also recognizes a well-planned vegan diet as a viable option for people of any age; they recommend that vegans eat B12-fortified foods or take supplements.[7] The Swiss Federal Nutrition Commission and the German Society for Nutrition do not recommend a vegan diet, and caution against it for children, the pregnant and the elderly.[121]"

Yes aslong as you take supplements or fortified foods then you can make a vegan diet nutritionally complete LOL.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - this was the full paper by the way.

Fortified foods and supplements should not be substitute for a healthy, balanced and complete diet. They are not real food either. They say a vegetarian diet can meet all the nutrients i.e Vitamin D, Omega-3's, Vitamin B12 etc then they apply that to a vegan diet, its ludicrous, where do you get the likes of Vitamin B12 and D on a vegan diet without supplementation or fortifed foods ? You don't thats the answer, again theres a massive difference between vegetarian diets and strict vegan.

All the benefits they describe can be attained from consuming a high plant based diet.

Here is the 2009 updated version which gives an explanation of each nutrient - [www.vrg.org]



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2013 11:57AM by powerlifter.

surely, the benefits gained with a vegan diet do not compare with the argument of taking a couple supplements. Millions of people on your perfect diet (animals products) fill up the waiting room of hospitals. Yet you look away. Why don't you save them with your theories?

there have been many vetegarian cultures like hinduism

[hinduism.about.com]

your lucky you have someone cutting the throats for you, otherwise this wouldn't be possible for you to follow.

Nutritionally complete? you think in terms of all or nothing, black or white. According to you, vegan people who do not take b12 supps are lying or should die eraly. Yet, in real life, they may surpass your life years. Eating animals have lots of bad effects.

powerlifter Wrote:
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> Yes nutritionally complete as in the diet provides
> all basic essential nutrients for health, unlike a
> vegan diet which has so many pitfalls its
> unbelievable.

As I said, animal products have scientifically documented bad health effects. That's why hospitals are so busy with animal eaters. Look it that way. Isn't dying a pitfall to you? wouldn't you just take a supp (b12) and forget about the throat-cut rottening carcass?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2013 01:06PM by Panchito.

oh I see. now you add justifications as to why your black-white statements contradict reality (hospitals are chock full of early dying non vegan people). This now gets into the territory of dumping blocks of text to justify personal ideological diet choices. What is more real, the huge number of non vegan people dying or the tiny amount of damage to your theories caused by adding a freaking supplement (b12)?

your argument: they are not healthy because they don't do what I do. If they do what I do they would be healthy. only if they do and hand pick.

I give you again the same link as before

[en.wikipedia.org]

"There is growing scientific consensus that a plant-based diet reduces the risk of a number of degenerative diseases, including coronary artery disease, diabetes, cancer, osteoporosis, kidney disease and dementia.[6]"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2013 01:36PM by Panchito.

what? you don't like what wikipedia says about veganism? it is clearly writen. it saves human lives as well as animal lives. yeah. that is very small when compared to your giagantic concept of "nutritionally complete"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2013 01:45PM by Panchito.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rzman10001 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> I DON'T KNOW MANY HEALTHY VEGANS BUT I
> > DO KNOW A FEW AND THEY ARE FINE IN ALL ASPECTS.
>
> If you don't know many healthy vegans then why are
> you constantly recommending this diet to people
> ?.
>
> Until you can convince me that the vegan diet is
> healthy for more than just a FEW select chosen
> people and that it is a nutritionally complete
> diet and SAFE to follow for the majority of
> individuals, then otherwise theres no hope for an
> honest discussion on nutrition with some of you
> guys, which is a shame really.
>
> Again, argue the points here.
>

I don't know many true vegans because I don't try whatsoever to hang out with just vegans! The only ones I can truly speak of are the ones that I know are eating a good diet AND have exceptional blood work. Brian Clement is like 70yrs. old and is highly functional at this point.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 12:19AM by Prana.

powerlifter Wrote:
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The liver can hold stores of vitamin B12 for years, so as always
> deficiencies take time to develop.


This is another study that you have read that is not scientifically backed. I know for a fact that the liver does not store up B-12 for use by the body! It is only made up of B12. There is no evidence that says the body uses b-12 from the liver when it needs it. This is just mainstream science that people believe without question.

Powerlifter, I think you should take a good look at yourself to try and understand why it is that you have to make everyone believe in your idea's on a site that is not inline with them? This should be your biggest revelation. I have spoken with you about things that I know complete and utter facts and you discount them as you are the almighty? When you are not sure about something you should be able to recognize this or you won't do as much good as you think you are.

Powerlifter is making many very good real world points in this thread, but l also like what Razman has to say because of my fondness for the highly nutritious HHI diet.

I beleive most can make the raw vegan diet work if they supplement and do a refined HHI form of diet, but it takes much effort to make it happen. Eg, growing most of your own food, getting the omega 3's in good balance so we can make EPA/DHA, taking a B12 supplement, getting out in the sun and showering every second day (or taking vitamin D because at high latitudes sun exposure is not guaranteed to help a body make D3), having ferments so the body's K2 production doesn't decline sharply in later years and to increase zinc and iron absorption and to reduce anti-nutrients, fasting to clean out the negative effects of anti nutrients etc etc. But who knows....maybe l could be wrong. Who knows who is doing the HHI diet truthfully and succeeding long term after 30 years.

I think if you do a natural hygiene form of diet your odds are going to go wayyy down with being successful in the long term. BUT...that doesn't mean to say it is impossible. I believe some people can get their body and spiritual level to such an extend where they can start manufacturing various protein and nutrients themselves as hormones...not many can, but it is possible for the minority [l think] (never say never). But this is not something you would want to gamble on imo, and if you are trying the natural hygiene diet you are taking a HUGE risk and likely to fail imo (not 100% likely to fail, but you are really pushing it). If you do the HHI style diet you have a fighting chance if you know what you are doing imo.

Viktoras Kulvinskas reported he once couldn't manufacture B12. Then he did enemas and wheatgrass implants and was eventually able to manufacture B12 himself.

Well said Sproutarian Man! There are many successful raw vegans I just don't know a lot of them, I do know of them and I know that B.C. is clearly the best example. I met many people at HHI that said they were long term vegans and doing well. And yes the raw vegan diet(and lets make this clear, raw vegan means about 75% raw)is very difficult for most! that is for sure. Especially the sick, which sucks. I see healthier people adopt to this diet much better than the sick. If, a person is going to adopt this diet they should be advised imo and B.C. says, they will have to utilize wheatgrass juice, chlorella, a good probiotic and perhaps other suppliments until the body becomes stronger. The only Real science that I can believe is the stuff done at HHI because I know B.C. personally and have listened to him lecture for countless hours and asked all kinds of questions for the past 11yrs. They also take studies "in question" and re-study them to see if there were any old world thinking that is just not up to date.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2013 11:28PM by rzman10001.

I know of one successsful raw vegan who is 55, yet he looks only 25. So what does he eat? 4 almonds a day. He doesn't go out telling people this to make him a hero, l just asked him one day quietly what he ate because he looked so young and vibrant. I wouldn't believe most people, but l believe this fellow because he is in a league of his own - he is a very high level spiritual person, no ego and meditates 12 or more hours a day and is just different from anyone you know. He is one of these Q.Y messengers, and l KNOW for a fact that these are high level people because they can read ones mind, see into people's meditations and tell you exactly what you have done in your current and previous lives. These are really high level people, and this fellow is one of them. He hasn't slept in over 12 years and people can confirm this because he doesn't have a bed...he meditates in the back of a hall each night with people around to testify it. He is one of the very few...he would be like these yogi's you hear about living in the mountains who are almost breatharian. That's one of the reasons why l believe in breatharianism...l see people defying science.

Even the co-owner of my site didn't sleep for months and eats so little that it defies belief. I know this because he stayed with me and never used his bed in two weeks. It's not about ego with this fellow either. These people are very different to your average raw vegans.

sproutman

what is a "Q.Y." messenger?

just wondering...

Quan Yin messenger.

They give people instant enlightenment by passing an electrical charge onto the person that re-activates the pineal gland, and yes, l can testify to this as a fact. There are many other things to it, but the messenger passes on the vibrational charge.