I was just watching a raw foods demo of making rejuvelac from 2009 and some of the comments claim that the Hippocrates Institute no longer recommends its usage due to some unfriendly bacteria produced. But that flies in the face of Ann Wigmore's experiences, doesn't it? I mean why is it suddenly not good and yet back when she was alive they said it turned her hair black again, etc.?

It was not good back then, she just did not know it. It was a scientific study by Brian Clement that showed her that it is was not good enough. 60 percent of the batches were bad.
She did well not because of rejuvelac but in spite of it. She had sprouts and wheatgrass and stopped eating cooked fried food, the national killer.

"Rejuvelac. We used to call it rejuve-rot. It is not a Hippocrates invention, it is a traditional drink from the Baltic countries. We used it in the past because we thought it had lacto-bacteria. We paid for a study on rejuvelac; we naively thought the fermentation would always be good bacteria. The study found that this was not the case; 40% of the batches tested were good, 60% were bad. Also, you cannot tell by the smell if the bacteria are good or bad. Instead, you can use acidophilus supplements, and they can be taken as implants also." [www.living-foods.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2013 04:22PM by RawPracticalist.

Hmmm. I just saw a tutorial on making it and they said not to drink what you've made until you have tasted it before and know how it's supposed to taste! I think I have a very developed palate and would know if it was bad. 60% isn't good odds though, LOL. I am planning to go to this raw cafe in the near future and I will buy some there and speak to the owner about it. I have never tasted it before, have you?

[en.wikipedia.org]

More people are getting into fermentation, you may want to try that, you get the rejuvelac and you also get the food.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
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> She did well not because of rejuvelac but in spite
> of it. She had sprouts and wheatgrass and stopped
> eating cooked fried food, the national killer.
>

Can't agree with that at all. That was the true key of her diet and one of the major contributors of her success imo. She fermented the beans (soy) and seeds (sunflower and sesame). Good bacteria, vitamin K2 and all the rest of the nutrients she got from fermenting and the diet in general.

l think Sproutman still uses rejuvalic, and Kulvinskas certainly ferments regularly. These people know the benefits despite the possibility of some bad bacteria.

HHI stopped using rejuvalic in about 1980.

I think Dr Ann would have done much better if she had more sleep. She burned the candle at both ends for decades.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2013 09:30PM by The Sproutarian Man.

Nothing touches rejuvalic, it's the key to success on the raw diet. Fermentation has an excellent reputation around the world for very good reason. It's not perfect, but it works miracles!!!

Anti nutrients and runaway sugars v's some bad bacteria. The first can bring the most diligent raw fooder crashing down, but the second can be managed by healthy people who can stay for for years if they are careful to eat well like Dr Ann.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2013 09:41PM by The Sproutarian Man.

With the continued hybridisation of the food supply, fermentation is highly recommended for raw food plant eaters if one is not at death's door.

Isn't that one Japanese dish natto fermented soybeans? They say it smells nasty but tastes great...

banana who Wrote:
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> Isn't that one Japanese dish natto fermented
> soybeans? They say it smells nasty but tastes
> great...

Yes.

If someone wants to make a good batch of rejuvelac, perhaps try putting some probiotic in the water to insure the good bacteria dominate.

Beer makers have known for 1000s of years that one must first sprout the grain to produce the sugars that fermentation requires. The putrid disasters that live food people produced involved drowning the unsprouted seeds for days. These dead, drowned seeds had no sugar to drive the fermentation and rotted instead. It's beyond me why people dedicated to sprouting would make such a terrible mistake with rejuvelac.

Here's a post I made some time back:

Hippocrates wasn't sprouting the wheat, and it ended up rotten.

The following is the best way to make rejuvelac from grain imho:

For 1000's of years people have been making fermented drinks from grains. Most often leading to beer. But after 1 or 2 days of fermentation the weak beer is rejuvelac, rich in enzymes, nutrients, and beneficial microflora. Many of the traditional beer making principles when applied to make rejuvelac give a very superior product: Soak grain for 12 hrs, drain, water plants with soak water, sprout until grass shoot is the length of the grain (about 4 days)(grain should be sweet to the taste)(don't rinse after the initial soak), take a few tbs of sprouts and blend with quart of water, let ferment a couple of days, (it should be bubbling vigorously and have a pleasant tart taste), drink, refill with water, ferment, drink, a few times till it is spent, keep the sprouted grain in the refrigerator and repeat. I like to use rye.
The Indians of the Amazon rainforest make a fermented drink as the above recipe but instead of blending the grain they chew it (the saliva aids in releasing more sugars) and then add it to the brew.

I'm thinking an even better way may be to ferment fresh grapes for a few days, just enough to get a vigorous population of the beneficial micro-organisms. Using unwashed grapes would give you the full spectrum of friendly organisms on the grape skin (as long as the air isn't too polluted in the vineyard area.)

Making additional rinses after the initial soak with promote mold and rot. The seed has all the water it needs for several days of sprouting without any additional water from rinses. Absolutely do not rinse after the first soak.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2013 06:34PM by brome.

Brome, I have rye I could use! Actually, your method of sprouting the grain beforehand is what I have for instructions. I think it's an overblown concern regarding the spoilage ratio.

Prana, that is an interesting idea. I am surprised no one mentions it...I wonder if it will change the microorganisms as well as the taste?

Soaking foods in rejuvalic can also decrease galactooligosaccharides and cyanogenic glycosides, AND it will also decrease concentrated fat levels BUT increase fatty acid levels. WOW. So yes, soaking fermented chia is going to increase the omega 3 fatty acid content, and Dr Clement says that sprouting chia increases the availability of the omega 3 fatty acids 36 times over the original seed (l am asking various associates of his if they can send me the proof along with many other things...people need to see proof of this).

l'll get into more detail and provide science links to prove this (fatty acid increases along with reducing ranaway sugars etc) in the fermentation thread and also talk about the miracle of sprouting. Sprouting does increase fatty acids and increase bioavailability of minerals due to enzymatic activity which breaks down proteins and causes chelation.

I can't even begin to tell you how good rejuvalic and sprouting is, but l will tell the story one of these days on my site when l can compile all the information and make it a user friendly read. It will blow minds sky high.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2013 12:53AM by The Sproutarian Man.

Many fermented foods are loaded with salt, which is definitely not healthy, at least for me, they don't feel good. I make unsalted fermented foods by kick starting them with probiotics to insure the bad bacteria don't dominate.

which probiotic starters to use?

RawPracticalist Wrote:
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> which probiotic starters to use?


I'll leave it to Prana but I imagine it would be bifidus?

I make rejuvelac by soaking grains overnight then fermenting the soak water - from Brome's post above it sounds like this is not the way to do it? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere to do it like that. I also add another type of ferment like water kefir to it, like Prana said, to increase the odds in the good guys' favour I also love to add seeds like flax and chia to my Kombucha 2nd ferment, (I strain them out before drinking) adds a nice texture, and lots more nutrients I'm sure

The soak water the next day is not good and should not be used for fermenting. It contains dirt from the grains. You let the grain sprouts for 2 to 3 days and then ferment the sprouting grains.
1. soak grains for 8 hours or more
2. discard the water
3. keep grain sprout fro 2 to 3 days.
4. ferment grains

Strange, in Kulvinskas' manual one of the methods he recommends uses the first soak water (after washing the grains first, obviously), he doesn't mention that it's necessary to discard the 1st soak water. I'll try your method though Common Sense Raw, thanks.

lisa m Wrote:
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> Strange, in Kulvinskas' manual one of the methods
> he recommends uses the first soak water (after
> washing the grains first, obviously), he doesn't
> mention that it's necessary to discard the 1st
> soak water. I'll try your method though Common
> Sense Raw, thanks.


Watch this demo, Lisa. It seems to gibe with the advice on here today.

The soak water contains all the dormancy chemicals and waste that the now vigorously awakened seed has shed into the water. Do not consume lest you go dormant yourself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2013 06:39PM by brome.

LOL. Sorry, Lisa...I paused [www.youtube.com]

Nice demo video except I would use a jar with tighter lid for fermenting the wheat berries.
[www.culturesforhealth.com]

[www.cookinggodsway.com]

lisa m Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Strange, in Kulvinskas' manual one of the methods
> he recommends uses the first soak water (after
> washing the grains first, obviously), he doesn't
> mention that it's necessary to discard the 1st
> soak water. I'll try your method though Common
> Sense Raw, thanks.

Yes, but now he specifically mentions to avoid doing this because it was making people very sick. And it's true, that soak water is full of anti-nutrients.

l've been having a good talk about fermentation with Viktoras of late, and he is bringing other people into the communication for their perspectives on the subject. He has put his opinion about 100% fermentation, i've given my opinion and science of it, and others will put their ideas forward shortly.

Viktoras says my idea is radical and he is forwarding my ideas onto various folks for their opinions. l'll report back in the fermentation thread what we talked about soon. It will be very interesting to see what people have to say, especially since l put very good reasons why we should be doing such high fermented diets. Have l taken it too far, or am l right on the money? It will be good to see what people with good industry experience have to say about it.

www.thesproutarian.com

Thanks for the info guys, quite a revelation! Everyday's a schoolday huh?

Banana who, great vid thanks! I do have a soft spot for the Monarchs, and I love that catchy little tune!

So, if I were to do the rejuvelac the way Angela demonstrates, when would be the best time to add another ferment like water kefir? I'm guessing at the end of the process, just add the water kefir and wait another day maybe?

Common sense raw, so are you saying that it's best to ferment rejuvelac anaerobically?

The problem with rejuvelac is that most batches are contaminated with bad bacteria, you want to reduce that chance. If you leave it open there is so much dirt in the air that could get into the solution. 60 percent of the batches are bad according to a study.
You do not need to add another ferment, sprouted seeds are powerful enough to make a good rejuvelac.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2013 03:48PM by CommonSenseRaw.

CommonSenseRaw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The problem with rejuvelac is that most batches
> are contaminated with bad bacteria,

l don't think it's accurate to make that assumption because it greatly simplifies issues. Yes, that study done years ago did show 60% of batches were bad, but that was one study.

The important things we weren't given information on is:

* how were these batches prepared, were they covered, were they prepared by various people, were they left in a public place, were they left by open windows etc. All these things are important factors that can influenece the outcome.

Fermentations have a good health history with cultures, so we can't so easily discount these foods as mainly bad because one study said so. It's important to look at things in a balanced context.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2013 09:42PM by The Sproutarian Man.

re the antinutrients - is it the same case with chia and flax? Cos I regularly add these to my kombucha (which I strain before drinking), and I don't soak them first. In fact most rawbies I know add chia straight into smoothies and puddings etc. Might this be a problem?

lisa m Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> re the antinutrients - is it the same case with
> chia and flax? Cos I regularly add these to my
> kombucha (which I strain before drinking), and I
> don't soak them first. In fact most rawbies I
> know add chia straight into smoothies and puddings
> etc. Might this be a problem?

Yes, it is a problem. Not a good idea at all. Those foods are full of anti nutrients and we must be sure they sprout to make sure they aren't irradiated. Also: raw chia isn't as digestable as so many people report, in fact the raw digestability of protein is only 24%:

PROTEIN DIGESTIBILITY OF CHIA SEED

Rebeca Monroy-Torres, Maria Lourdes Mancilla-Escobar, Juan Carlos Gallaga-Solórzano*, Sergio Medina-Godoy**, Enrique Javier Santiago-García
[www.respyn.uanl.mx]

And we also have the problem of the IP5 - 6 phytic acids not being broken down, the various polyphenols greatly hindering iron, zinc, carb, fatty acid and protien aborption, and the potential for high oxalic acid levels. This means that many of health giving factors are not going to be available in great amounts.

There is probably a good reason why the Aztecs toasted the chia and got great health benefits, they might have known by experience that the raw chia didn't provide such health benefit because many of the nutrients would have been locked. However a major problem with cooking it is the protein disorganisation that occurs which renders much of the protein unabsorbable, and we can clearly see this in the above link. From my experience it is easier to build muscle on raw protein than it ever was on cooked protein.

I would definitely be sprouting the flax and chia from 2 - 3 days. No doubt about it. The sprouting will break much of the fat levels down into fatty acids, it will break the protein down into ready usable amino acids, it will break down starches into simplier carbohydrates and it will chelate minerals (enhance mineral absorption) and greatly reduce anti-nutrients. Dr Brian Clement has gone as far to claim that sprouted chia makes the omega 3's 36 times more available over the original seed when sprouted.

I will be having sprouted chia for lunch today.

www.thesproutarian.com