[www.thewoodstockfruitfestival.com]

l suppose they want to give a pure raw vegan message to people. F.L and `the rider' no longer fit into that category. No big deal.

Well, I do think it's a slightly big deal when I look at the board of governor list and Kristina AND Dr. Graham are on it!

LOL--drama in the raw food community--who knew?

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> LOL--drama in the raw food community--who knew?

You could make an excellent cult movie about the raw food community. All the drama and funny characters would make a great movie. The raw food community is hilarious.

They're vampires and screwballs, the lot of 'em. Yeah, where's the friendship. It's all based on what you eat. How lame.

Oh and who is "Ann?" Don't know any raw Anns and can't find any mention of an Ann in regards to this issue.

I went to 30bananasaday.com and someone started a thread on this issue but so far I have not heard either DR or Freelea give a statement on it. I am also a bit surprised because Freelea is very regular during the week with videos and she didn't upload on today! The plot thickens...

Ann is referring to Anne Osborne, a fruitarian who is a pioneer at the woodstock fruit festival.

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ann is referring to Anne Osborne, a fruitarian who
> is a pioneer at the woodstock fruit festival.


Thanks, Prana! That name sounds familiar but I am not sure if I have ever seen her before. It's funny all these raw cliques that have formed.

Here is the founder of the woodstock fruit festival's personal opinion on the changes in the dietary recommendations made by Harley and Freelee: A Personal Post Re: Harley and Freelee / Pioneers

here is anne on the vegan truth.. [www.youtube.com]
if your not on facebook you don't see freelee and durianriders comments

i am in communication with nearly all parties

life vs lifelessness

I think it's good that Freelee and Harley are doing something else, if what they were doing before wasn't working for them.

Has anyone ever been so hungry that they would eat straight sugar like Harley did? I remember being that hungry many years ago, when I had no money, no food stamps, nothing. I was staying at someone else's house, and I was so hungry, I ate straight sugar because it was the only thing to eat.

Of course, I could be wrong, but I see it like this: Harley was out on his bike. If he's not getting enough sustainable energy source from fats in his diet, and if he passionately believes carbs are his only choice - no matter where they come from - and if he feels like he has to eat, then yes, he could pour straight sugar into his water and drink it, and he did. He could eat white flour, and he did.

Has anyone noticed that Freelee has lost weight recently? She's becoming really thin. Maybe she needs to eat something more than what she's been eating. My own preference would be to have more variety on the raw food diet and not be so hung up some macronutrient ratio. But that's me.

Anyway, I think this is all a good thing. I don't believe being all raw equates to all sweetness and light as it's often portrayed. We shouldn't pretend it's easy; because often, it's not. And we shouldn't pretend we know what we're doing, because often, we don't.

Hopefully Freelee and Harley will come out of this with a better direction and not just go right back to where they were before. I think the lesson for everyone is that we're all really experimenting. There are no real leaders.

Michael Arnstein is the founder of the Woodstock Fruit Festival. In December 2012, he said on his website that within the past 5 years, he has eaten fish, clams, oysters, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, coca cola, Ramen noodle soup, and marshmallows. [thefruitarian.com]

I can see why it's no longer appropriate for H and F to be considered leaders ("pioneers" ) of a raw food movement, when they're now promoting something else. But really, the whole thing is so weird because someone came up with the idea of calling a few selected people "pioneers" in the first place. I don't think that was a good idea. For now though, it might be helpful for the "pioneers" to saw we're all in new territory, we're all experimenting, and hopefully we're all still learning as we go.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2013 07:50AM by suncloud.

Suncloud, unless Harley is suffering from premature Alzheimers or a bad case of amnesia, how can you even attempt to justify his putting half a dispenser of sugar in water? He's done the run many times before so he knows what's involved. What about his boasting about dates, bananas and water in the past - surely he could have brought some along - and in the past mocking and denigrating everyone else who wasn't having raw drinks, and how well he was doing.

He wasn't doing a cross country run, the Hawaii Ironman or an ultra-marathon, just a half hour run. He's not that poor or destitute so let's not make excuses.He needs to do a mea culpa and then explain why he has started on the 30 slices of pizza a day and the sugar and water. Let him say if the raw diet didn't work for him, or exactly why he is doing what he is doing rather than obfuscating and saying he is getting his carbs from a different source. Is he just doing a short term experiment, or if the raw diet is not working for him any more then let him come out and say so? Why all the bulls..t. Let's hear the truth from him.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> There are no real leaders.

l can see what you are saying, but there probably are a few folks who have been 100% raw for over three decades who have done raw successfully and could be classified as real leaders. l would have definitely included Ann Wigmore as a true raw leader, she introduced an amazing system of eating that does seem to work well and keep people on the program if they are prepared to do the hard work growing the food. She changed many lives for the better. Other leaders would be people who have been working in the industry for decades and have developed great knowledge via extensive science journal study and clinical research experience such as Drs Clement and Coisens. But true, there aren't many raw food leaders, most people are raw food enthusiasts who haven't been 100% raw longer than 30 years so they are not really in a position to be called experts at an all raw diet.

>
> Michael Arnstein is the founder of the Woodstock
> Fruit Festival. In December 2012, he said on his
> website that within the past 5 years, he has eaten
> fish, clams, oysters, peanut butter and jelly
> sandwiches, coca cola, Ramen noodle soup, and
> marshmallows.
> [thefruitarian.com]

Wow, l am really surprised to read that. l wonder how his body handles those types of food and drinks. l thought he was one of the few who was faithful to the fruitarian diet over these few years, but it would be an awefully tough diet to stick to. He started off his diet by eating supermarket fruit lol. Definitely an interesting fellow, and bravo for being upfront about it.

Fred Bisci looks great. Could call him a raw food leader because he has stuck with it for 55 years and been 100% for a decent part of that time and high raw the rest. It shows! He is definitely doing something right.

[www.google.com.au]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2013 09:21AM by The Sproutarian Man.

she was off on some ideas wheat grass is protopasmic toxin

life vs lifelessness

Tarah weighs in: [www.youtube.com]

So she's not going to the Woodstock Fest anymore. I suspect that this decision will reverberate and bite them in the butt. I dislike even the idea of a "Board of Governors." Surely frugivores can avoid reptilian tendencies of having to create unnecessary structures, can't they?

There not raw foodists anymore, there just the same as every other cooked food eater out there, so why should they be held to a higher standard than they treated others ? They obviously want to keep the festival raw orientated.

The 30BAd crew demanded that the raw brahs be removed from the festival when they changed diet, you reap what you sow. You create this elitest dogma and division, then you have to live by it constantly im afraid or lie.

Who wants to listen to talks from cooked food eaters pretending to be raw foodists. It takes the fake magic away when you know for sure that there all lying to some degree about what they really eat.

These people seem to think that they are larger than there own rules.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2013 06:15PM by powerlifter.

PL, I think what Tarah was saying is that the ones left are still not 100% raw but are allowed to stay. I think that's what I heard her say. I mean, Tarah is 100% raw. And she makes a good point that being transparent is a GOOD thing! Pretending you're raw so you can look perfect is worse than telling people that you eat cooked carbs.

Who cares? It was probably just an excuse to get rid of them and their vibe. Mike Arnstein pays the bills. He's going to do what he wants to do. I suspect that he's a pretty smart businessman who can see that the duo from down under make more enemies than they do friends. This is a behavioral issue that goes well beyond pizza and pasta. These people see themselves as part of a movement and probably want that movement defined by kinder and more consistent/stable personalities. I don't think that they'll regret this move at all. In the long term it will result in gains.


banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PL, I think what Tarah was saying is that the ones
> left are still not 100% raw but are allowed to
> stay. I think that's what I heard her say. I mean,
> Tarah is 100% raw. And she makes a good point that
> being transparent is a GOOD thing! Pretending
> you're raw so you can look perfect is worse than
> telling people that you eat cooked carbs.

I love how transparancy is so great all of a sudden since DR and Freelea now embrace it lol.

Where was that level of compassion and transparancy from the 30 BAD crew to others for the past 3 years, these same people bullied anyone that got in there path for failing there elitest diet, talking about the problems with 80/10/10 or eating cooked foods. Even the mention of cooked vegetables was an instant ban from 30 BAD forum.

Anyway there diet changes aside, the whole thing is more about Mike Arnstein and Doug Graham installing some damage limitation from all the public negativity, immaturity and circus drama created by the 30 BAD crew.

They were still invited to the festival just not to give talks on raw food or receive sponsorship money.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2013 07:41PM by powerlifter.

It wasn't just cooked foods that would get people shunned. It was (probably still is) anything supplemental or in the micro-nutrient realm. Not even herbs were allowed. Things like adaptogenic herbs are considered hocus-pocus/devilry while never allowing for any discussion on their potential merits. It's all very weird.

Anyone remember when DR ran riot over this forum? That was a barrel of laughs, wasn't it? (sarcasm)


powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I love how transparancy is so great all of a
> sudden since DR and Freelea now embrace it lol.
>
> Where was that level of compassion and
> transparancy from the 30 BAD crew to others for
> the past 3 years, these same people bullied anyone
> that got in there path for failing there elitest
> diet, talking about the problems with 80/10/10 or
> eating cooked foods. Even the mention of cooked
> vegetables was an instant ban from 30 BAD forum.
>
> Anyway there diet changes aside, the whole thing
> is more about Mike Arnstein and Doug Graham
> installing some damage limitation from all the
> public negativity, immaturity and circus drama
> created by the 30 BAD crew.
>
> They were still invited to the festival just not
> to give talks on raw food or receive sponsorship
> money.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From what ive heard and read Ann Wigmore agreed in
> her later days that raw food alone wasn't enough.

Interesting. Are you able to find that link?

>
>
> As much as im grateful for Ann Wigmores teachings,
> much of these teaching systems are now very
> out-dated, we are living in a completely different
> time, dominated by 20 times the enviromental
> toxins that there were back then, poor diets, poor
> soil conditions which makes getting certain
> minerals even more difficult. People are more
> copper toxic and zinc deficient than ever before,
> this could be because of the trend towards
> vegetarian and vegan diets however.
>
> Even Gersons juicing therapy etc, we aren't seeing
> the same results now that he was having back in
> his day with carrot juicing. Possibly the carrots
> are less nutrient dense than they once were,
> higher sugar etc. Who knows, either way alot of
> these peoples teachings are outdated in my opinion
> and not relavant to current times.


Very interesting opinion there Powerlifter, and l appreciate it. Good point on the zinc and copper. And yes, to me, all the stops need to be pulled out these days with a raw diet and take it even further than Ann Wigmore did. Imo, you need to be doing it all and leave no stone unturned, but maybe that still isn't enough and in years to come l will fail too like many others. So be it.

There is an Australian who had been living on weeds for years. When people ask him if he is vegan he says `l am today, but who knows what is going to happen tomorrow, l may be forced to eat bugs'.

Great discussion from everyone here. The elitism from raw foodists just show the diet isn't really working imo. Tying up ego with food is just rediculous. So much ego around and it's really sad to see.

On Alissa Cohen's old forum people weren't allowed to talk about cooked food either. It was a very restrictive forum.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The bit about Ann Wigmore was on Dr Wilsons site
> about cancer/wheatgrass. Ill have a look later if
> you can't find and are still interested. Dr Wilson
> is a nutritional balancing expert who learned from
> Dr Paul Eck. These guys have healed thousands of
> people with nutritional balancing science and have
> lots of great lifestyle tips for improved health.

Excellent. l will check it out.


>

> Its more of a lifestyle, there are lots of factors
> which might sound abit crazy like retaining your
> sexual fluid especially if your a male, but you
> lose alot of zinc, forms of selenium that are hard
> to replace and other trace minerals from sexual
> fluid loss. Its known in traditional chinese
> medicine as retaining "jing", which is basically
> ones adrenal/lifeforce energy.

Yes! Not crazy at all. It is the great killer and downfall for man. As one of the great sages once said "some men choose to make families, other men choose to make philosophies". Meditation is the key to controlling urges. Sexual fluid loss is so destructive in many ways for vegans and vegetarians (especially if they are raw) - important nutrient losses occur (like you said) that are hard to make up for given the low zinc absorption and synergy in many raw diets. The other major problem is that it can take one's true purpose of being away from the real game...to develop the spirit/soul by engaging too much into the physical. The physical temptations are a test because it can draw one away from their true selves (beings of light) and lead one into living far too much into the illusion of the physical world.

The physical is good (it's a learning experience to help the start spiritual development), but there comes a time in one's evolution where one learns to keep the physical well in it's rightful place and move onto far greater things. The cosmic experiences far outweight anything this physical world has to offer. Samadhi will always trump sexual pleasure. Enlightenment changes everything because you begin to understand who you really are and why the world is like it is. Love the dark forces, for they are part of the `so called' God and exist to develop us. The dark forces aren't bad, they are soul developers. That's why you love all unconditionally.

>

>
> I appreciate you opinions/posts on diet also TSM,
> your a welcome addition to the forum.
l feel the same about you. You are the voice of common sense and certainly make me take the copper - zinc ratio and heavy metal toxicity more seriously.

>I think if
> anyone has the chance to make a raw diet work then
> it will be someone like yourself who is utilizing
> many different methods to enhance nutrient
> absorption and lower anti-nutrients, fermented
> foods, eating nutrient dense sprouts, seaweeds
> etc.
I have compiled a diet l think is the best to possibly do. I've really tried to cover everything according to the knowledge we have available and leave no stone unturned.


>Although from my own experience i still don't
> feel its enough unfortunately in the long term.

This is what Viktoras Kulvinskas told me:

"Presently living in Costa Rica and we have access to sprouting chick pea, mung, lentil, wheat and sunflower. It is more than enough !!
The rest is well covered with the organic greens and local fruit".

l wrote back and told him my diet, so it will be interesting to see what he says about everything being fermented. As you say, we've got to bring up the zinc levels much much more, and the fermentations and U.T will do this. Saving the sexual fluid saves 1/10th of the daily zinc need, U.T can almost get another 1/10th (that's 15 -20% of zinc needs saved so far), and fermenting can increase zinc over copper by 600% or more.I believe it can be done.

Personally l feel the sea weeds, green juices and sprouted seeds are the key foods.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2013 11:21PM by The Sproutarian Man.

Dr. Wilson's page on sex: [www.drlwilson.com] This is interesting to me because it's typically men who are most implored to hang on to their "sexual fluids." Wilson gives particular attention to women in this area. I fully agree with this message for both sexes. The nutritional perspective is something that I've never been exposed to. Thanks.

Hi BJ,

Sorry if my post wasn't clear. I'm not making excuses. I'm just saying that people are all human, and if we're not getting enough of everything we need from our diets, we're going to get hungry. No one is immune from that.

If I remember correctly, Harley brought an entire pound of dried bananas with him. It wasn't enough, and I believe - though I could be wrong - that 80-10-10 is not sustainable long term, at least not on raw. Cooked 80-10-10 provides minerals (from starches) that raw 80-10-10 lacks. I believe that's why raw-until-4 works for lots of people, especially if the diet is all low fat.

I'm not advocating starches in the diet. I don't eat cooked food myself. I can't eat starches at all, because they make me feel awful. But for me, I choose not to follow 80-10-10, because I can't stay raw on it. It makes me too hungry. My raw vegan diet includes more fats than that (from whole food plant sources). I don't crave starches, and I believe it's because I'm already getting enough minerals from healthy raw sources.

When you add up the minerals normally available on 80-10-10, it's very short.

Does anyone think our early ancestors - who got a ton of exercise just looking for food everyday - would turn down a whole avocado or coconut if they were hungry?

I also eat lots of fruits. I grow bananas at home, and I think restrictions on raw carbs are just as big a mistake. For example, our red blood cells access energy only from carbs.

Sometimes I think people in our society are so fat- and disease-paranoid that we throw out the baby with the bathwater by severely restricting highly nutritious plant foods containing plant oils OR plant sugars. That approach is simply not evidence-based.

Hey, if Harley and Freelee were hurting themselves on their diet, it's good they're not on it anymore.

As for whether Harley needs to do a "mea culpa", I don't know if he and Freelee have figured out yet where they're really going with this. Well heck, they're both very young. They're experimenting. I'm 63 and I'm still experimenting. But I stay raw because it's what I prefer.

It's not a contest though, and whatever anyone else is doing is fine with me. Just please don't kill yourself trying to attain some totally unproven goal, just because someone you admire promotes it.

Freelee and Harley are vegan now not raw and the festival wants people who promote raw and live mostly raw.
Harley telling people white sugar is ok and totally healthy and the same as juicing is so unhealthy.

The meat brahs were kicked out because they were not vegan or even vegetarian and promoted animal slaughter.

It is a laugh to call any of those people gurus. They all come off as experts and know it alls.
The drama will die down and another one will come along.
Dan mcdoanald needs to stop acting like he is vegan and some enlighten being.

rawveggiemom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> It is a laugh to call any of those people gurus.

l was under the impression that Fred P was a guru though. He said the only way to succeed on a raw diet is to eat lots of fruit and that 80-10-10 is the best diet of all. And Fred should know because he said he is very well researched and knows lots of things about the raw food diet. He did much of his learning from other failed raw food vegan gurus and even read some science.

Fred also says to only eat sprouts occasionally because they are not very nutritious, and he even provided one study to prove it, so he must know what he is talking about, right?

The funny thing is,

* he neglected to mention about how the abundant enzymes in sprouts hook up with amino acids and cause increased chelation in the sprouts making the minerals much more bioavailable.

* he also neglected to mention the abundant phytonutrients in sprouts which play a key nutritional role.

* he also neglected to mention the freshness of sprouts compared to the foods he buys from shops and the problems of lowered oxygen levels, vitamin levels, enzymes levels etc.

* he also neglected to mention some studies suggesting the high fiber in vegetable foods as having a possible anti nutritional role with mineral absorption compared with the compact sprout meals.

* he also neglected to mention the post harvesting factors on vegetables compared with sprouts.

* he also neglected to mention the many studies that show dehydrated analysis of sprouts being superior nutrition compared to vegetables.

* he also neglected to mention the role of increased anti-nutrients in some of the mature vegetables compared to sprouts.

Hmmm....maybe you are right...maybe these book writers aren't gurus afterall. Maybe some of these gurus would be better finding other jobs that they are better suited at. l couldn't imagine studying for years and years and still being bad at your job. Surely people can find something they are good at, we all have our talents somewhere.

Actually, there are many other things l could have brought up like Dr Hunt's apparent research into bioenergy fields in sprouts, and Dr Clement's and other scientists research into hormones in sprouts, but best not to go there because l haven't beemn able to access proper published evidence to suggest this.

l like Fred's books because they always make me smile. Fred reminds me of a cartoon character...he would make a good comedian me thinks.


(some slight snark was added for this post. No-one talks down the sprouts without some comeback lol. All in good fun).

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2013 12:07AM by The Sproutarian Man.

Thank you. He also forgot to mention how potent wheatgrass was.
this is what he wrote

Quote


Why would you want to drink such a nasty beverage?

Let’s look at the claims made by wheatgrass proponents one by one.

1-Chlorophyll

One of the big claims made about wheatgrass juice is that because it’s rich in chlorophyll, and that chlorophyll is similar to hemoglobin in structure, that somehow it helps “build your blood”, because hemoglobin is an important component of blood. Some authors have even claimed that the “only” difference between hemoglobin and chlorophyll is the center element, which is iron for hemoglobin and magnesium for chlorophyll.

What is chlorophyll? It’s of course the substance that converts sun energy into chemical energy through the process known as photosynthesis. Without this process, human life would not be possible! Only plants can make carbohydrates from carbon dioxide and water.

Hemoglobin is a protein that transports oxygen into the red blood cells. It makes up about 35% of the blood. Without hemoglobin, human life would also not be possible. It transports oxygen from the lungs to every cell of the body that needs it.

So what’s the link between the two? They are certainly similar in structure, but with very important difference. The main difference is that hemoglobin is built around iron, while chlorophyll is built around magnesium. But to claim that the two molecules are easily interchangeable is really oversimplying things

We know that if you need iron, you cannot just take magnesium and expect your body to convert it like an alchemist would convert lead into gold.

Certain elements that help build the blood (such as iron, calcium, vitamin C, folic acid, etc.) are found abundantly in chlorophyll-containing foods such as green vegetables, so it’s easy to understand that these foods can have some benefits. But the claim that chlorophyll can be converted into hemoglobin is simply not supported by science.

Chrolophyll is not a necessary nutrient in human nutrition. Many populations throughout history have gone for years, or even decades on restricted diets of various foods that do not contain any chlorophyll (such as fruits, root vegetables, grains, etc.), with no apparent difficiency.

But the big misunderstanding about grass as part of the human diet is that we’re simply not grass-eating creatures. All of the various vitamins and minerals that are found in wheatgrass can be found in much more succulent and easily digestible fruits and v

[www.fredericpatenaude.com]

He is not 100% raw any more and eats cooked food. At least now he is willing to debunk some of the 100% raw propaganda that we are fed. When was that quote about wheatgrass? Maybe he has changed his tune now.