powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are no animals in nature who are strict
> vegans/plant eaters and theres a reason for that.
>
>
> Many of these animals, even reptiles such as
> snakes are carnivores, they require animals in
> there diet in order to survive. They can't go to
> the supplement store for b12 supplements, taurine
> and whatever else. They eat what there
> biologically and naturally designed to eat.
>
> Can many animals adapt like dogs sure, there is
> evidence that dogs can adapt to high starch based
> diets but not strict vegan diets. They still
> require animal foods in order to be healthy.
> Adaptation isn't always a good thing either,
> humans have poorly adapted to higher than
> acceptable intakes of sugar and excessive fat
> intake. Even protein can be too high in the
> standard diet.
>


Umm...... yes there are, they are called herbivores. And the biggest land animals on the planet strictly eat plants. Gorillas, hippos, elephants, rhinos, giraffes, gaurs, buffalos, etc. Gorillas eat some insects but that's about it.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 12:07AM by Prana.

Even herbivores eat insects and loads of other bugs so they can't be considered strict vegan either, although they are at least biologically designed to eat a plant based diet.

Here's one of my favorite vegans. Meet Bagheera Kipling..

[www.youtube.com]

[en.wikipedia.org]

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even herbivores eat insects and loads of other
> bugs so they can't be considered strict vegan
> either, although they are at least biologically
> designed to eat a plant based diet.


Humans are 100% physiologically herbivorous. And of the animals I listed, other than gorillas, which one's eat insects? The only thing I've read is that giraffe's will eat insects but only if they are crawling on their face, so they use their giant tongues real quick to solve that lol. And that's most likely due to annoyance, it's not like they seek out insects.

Every leafy veggies these animals eat in the wild has bugs, insects on them. Even the cows in your backward feed on grass with plenty of insects, lady bugs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2014 09:13PM by RawPracticalist.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every leafy veggies these animals eat in the wild
> has bugs, insects on them. Even the cows in your
> backward feed on grass with plenty of insects,
> lady bugs.


That's just pushing it... that's like me calling a vegan actually not a vegan because there are microorganisms on his berries that he cant see when he eats them.

My friend that is the true, that is why these cows do not need b12 injection, they are not vegans. You can hardly find any real vegan in the wild.
We humans wash our greens, our veggies so there is no trace of bugs in the diet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2014 09:23PM by RawPracticalist.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My friend that is the true, that is why these cows
> do not need b12 injection, they are not vegans.
> You can hardly find any real vegan in the wild.
> We humans wash our greens, our veggies so there is
> no trace of bugs in the diet.


They get B12 from the soil not from bugs.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RawPracticalist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > My friend that is the true, that is why these
> cows
> > do not need b12 injection, they are not vegans.
> > You can hardly find any real vegan in the wild.
> > We humans wash our greens, our veggies so there
> is
> > no trace of bugs in the diet.
>
>
> They get B12 from the soil not from bugs.

Actually the majority of vitamin B12 content found in various bugs has been shown to be produced from the intestinal bacteria.

[www.sciencedirect.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2014 09:38PM by powerlifter.

Last summer I bought wild raspberries and I enjoyed eating them until I saw there were ones with small white berry worms. Then I suddenly lost my appetite and I immediately thought I was no longer a vegan. But it wasn't like I intentionally ate the worms (in case I actually ate any before I realized it). Still, I haven't bought wild raspberries anymore. I could say they were not vegan but they were raw...

This happened to me with the cherries too (though not wild ones): I washed and put them in a transparent box in the fridge for the next day and when I took the box to eat, I saw lots of white cherry worms on the bottom of the box. I instantly lost my appetite, but I still ate the cherries by opening each one and removing any worm. Still, that was like yuck. And I was also like....oh no I ate meat...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Raw vegan for life. Vegan for the animals. Raw for my health.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2014 09:48PM by Ela2013.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jtprindl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > RawPracticalist Wrote:> vegans.
> > > You can hardly find any real vegan in the
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > My friend that is the true, that is why these
> > cows
> > > do not need b12 injection, they are not

> wild.
> > > We humans wash our greens, our veggies so
> there
> > is
> > > no trace of bugs in the diet.
> >
> >
> > They get B12 from the soil not from bugs.
>
> Actually the majority of vitamin B12 content found
> in various bugs has been shown to be produced from
> the intestinal bacteria.
>
> [www.sciencedirect.com]
> 020179084900271


I was referring to cows in that post but anyways what how does that article relate in regards to the herbivores I mentioned?

ela 2013


. <<I instantly lost my appetite, but I still ate the cherries by opening each one and removing any worm. Still, that was like yuck. And I was also like....oh no I ate meat...>>


eww

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [www.youtube.com]
>
> I just started watching this and when I got to the
> 14 minute mark, he started to show a 5 minute clip
> of what goes on in slaughter houses and I've seen
> enough of these to NEVER want to see another and I
> don't need to see another, although, if you
> consume Animal Products, it's a MUST SEE.
>
> Anyway, it's time for a break so I can walk my
> dog, but I'm looking forward to coming back to
> watch the rest of this minus those 5 minutes.
>
> Peace and Love..........John
If one can be vegan that is great but in reality it is an impossible dream for the majority of people. What should be encouraged is organic farming and free range animal raising. Free range chicken eggs and goat milk can be usable for those you do not want to be vegan and they do not hurt the environment and the animals.
We can continue to entertain an impossible dream or deal with reality.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2014 06:27PM by RawPracticalist.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John Rose Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > [www.youtube.com]
> >
> > I just started watching this and when I got to
> the
> > 14 minute mark, he started to show a 5 minute
> clip
> > of what goes on in slaughter houses and I've
> seen
> > enough of these to NEVER want to see another and
> I
> > don't need to see another, although, if you
> > consume Animal Products, it's a MUST SEE.
> >
> > Anyway, it's time for a break so I can walk my
> > dog, but I'm looking forward to coming back to
> > watch the rest of this minus those 5 minutes.
> >
> > Peace and Love..........John
> If we can be vegan that is great but in reality it
> is an impossible dream for the majority of people.
> What should be encouraged is organic farming and
> free range animal raising. Free range chicken eggs
> and goat milk can be usable for those you do not
> want to be vegan and they do not hurt the
> environment and the animals


How is it impossible? "Free-range" and "humane" are just terms to make people feel better about themselves but they don't actually mean anything. They're still enslaved and taken advantage of. Humans are also the only species on the planet to drink another species' milk... disgusting and ridiculous.

[www.peacefulprairie.org]

We can hardly find any successful vegan even in this small forum community.
How would you be able to get 7 billions of the planet inhabitants to become vegan?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2014 06:54PM by RawPracticalist.

The cruel truth is that we can't. And we should not even try to. All we need to do is be a positive example ourselves and show the others how great and healthy and colorful it is to be a raw vegan.

Personally I stopped trying to convince anyone, as I saw it just doesn't work. The tradition of unhealthy eating is just too powerful to be changed at this point. I tried it with my family, with their friends, with my husband, but the inevitable reaction was like..."yeah, ok, that looks great...but you need meat, you need milk, you need the real food"...or "are you saying that you are not hungry eating like this?"...
When I told them about animal cruelty and such, they were like..."yeah but the animals are being killed anyway, I didn't kill them"...

So I just focus on my raw vegan path, I try to improve my lifestyle and just to set an example. Whoever has eyes to see and ears to hear will eventually embrace at least a little bit of what being a raw vegan trully means.

I guess it's just like a personal inner calling...everyone will end up looking closely into raw veganism, at their own pace, when the time comes.

It all comes down to a personal choice and when someone is really ready to move on to being a raw vegan, I think that he/she will most likely do so.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Raw vegan for life. Vegan for the animals. Raw for my health.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We can hardly find any successful vegan even in
> this small forum community.
> How would you be able to get 7 billions of the
> planet inhabitants to become vegan?


I don't have an answer for that, but I know it's possible. However, greed, ego, and temptation will take control of many individuals and they wouldn't choose to participate. It would cause less cruelty and disease, less environmental damage, and cost less (meat is way more expensive than plant-based foods).

Hippocrates (460-370 BC) – The soul is the same in all living creatures, although the body of each is different.

Leonardo Da Vinci (1452-1519) – Truly man is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds theirs. We live by the death of others: we are burial places! I have from an early age abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when men such as I will look on the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men.

George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950) - Animals are my friends and I don’t eat my friends.

Albert Einstein (1879-1955) – It is my view that the vegetarian manner of living, by its purely physical effect on the human temperament, would most beneficially influence the lot of mankind.

Paul McCartney (1942-present) – If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian.

The Dalai Lama (1935-present) - I do not see any reason why animals should be slaughtered to serve as human diet when there are so many substitutes. After all, man can live without meat. It is only some carnivorous animals that have to subsist on flesh. Killing animals for sport, for pleasure, for adventures, and for hides and furs is a phenomenon which is at once disgusting and distressing. There is no justification in indulging in such acts of brutality . . . Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to a man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not to die, so do other creatures

I agree that animals are our friends and we should not eat them. But the biggest problem the world has is not that we eat meat, it is that the meat we eat is loaded with chemicals and hormones. Our grand parents ate free range grass fed meat.

The animals are raised under tremendous stress, to get fat as fast as possible.

This is a more urgent problem to solve than getting people to become vegan.
People are sick and dying not because they eat meat but because the meat is not clean.

Veganism is a higher goal and those who can achieve it should be respected but for the most the urgent issue is not that.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2014 09:57PM by RawPracticalist.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree that animals are our friends and we should
> not eat them. But the biggest problem the world
> has is not that we eat meat, it is that the meat
> we eat is loaded with chemicals and hormones. Our
> grand parents ate free range grass fed meat.

not so. australia eats only grassfed beef and they have the same problems as the US. eating meat bring lots of problems such as cardio vascular disease (#1 death cause), cancer (#2), and many more.

There are a few more problems with "grass fed" "beef".

1. Radioactive fallout bio-accumulates and biomagnifies up the food chain. Fukushima is not going away. Fallout falls out in rain on grass.


2. Guess where almost all "beef", including most grass fed, goes once "it's" sold before slaughter? Feed lots - where they are stuffed like geese who's livers are doomed to be pate until the've gained enough weight. Remember they are sold by the pound.

So if grass feed beef is bad what is the solution for the 7 billion earth inhabitants who do not want to be vegan. It cannot be b12 injection, very impractical

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So if grass feed beef is bad what is the solution
> for the 7 billion earth inhabitants who do not
> want to be vegan. It cannot be b12 injection, very
> impractical


How about weeds and seaweeds? I went vegetarian when I was 13 and have never had a low B12 test. Maybe it's because I use a weedeater to pull out dandelions. Then I throw them in the juicer dirt and all. All I do for prep is shake the loose dirt off first.

I love the ag/chem industry designated "invasive weeds" they are the best food ever. And check out the this great thread on what to do...

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2014 04:14PM by SueZ.

I think that we should use the fact that the meat they eat is bad to support the raw vegan lifestyle, together with the fact that meat is not good for them in the first place.

It's like someone is taking anti-smoking pills while he/she is massively smoking. And then being worried that the pills have side effects.

Worrying that the meat they eat is bad is not important since eating meat is not a good choice whatsoever. I think that the concept of eating healthy happy cows and pigs and chicken is a shame and also a cruelty. It is also fake overall, and it is about fake love for those animals.

I saw a documentary on a tv channel about someone living an eco life and growing his own fruits and veggies and raising his own animals. He even gave them human names. Then, when the pigs were fat enough, he sent them to be slaughtered for his Christmas feast. Afterwards he was like..."I can't believe now I'm eating a steak made from my pig Dora". That is just ridiculous...

I would not like to be raised in the best conditions and then to be slaughtered.

We must put ourselves in the animals "shoes" so to speak. No matter if they lived a happy life or have been raised in inhumane conditions, they will still feel fear of death before being slaughtered.

People think that if they stuff their animals with huge quantities of their favorite food, animals will be grateful for being slaughtered in such a "noble" manner.

Then they give us these replies: "you vegans are no better than us because you kill your plants in order to eat them" and "plants have feelings too".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Raw vegan for life. Vegan for the animals. Raw for my health.

the big Q is who has read among here "The China Study"?

[www.amazon.com]


there are people who have heard of it but never read it. If you are into food, nutrition, etc., yopu would have missed the biggest thing ever.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the big Q is who has read among here "The China
> Study"?
>
> [www.amazon.com]
> e-Implications/dp/1932100660
>
>
> there are people who have heard of it but never
> read it. If you are into food, nutrition, etc.,
> yopu would have missed the biggest thing ever.


I've read into it but I also heard it's kind of flawed.

<<<the big Q is who has read among here "The China Study"?>>>

Yes, I've read it cover to cover and it has some major FLAWS. I've also done Seminars and Workshops with Campbell and he's very reluctant to acknowledge that his research has any FLAWS whatsoever. Of course, the obvious FLAW is that he does NOT take RAW FOOD into consideration because there is a HUGE difference between Pasteurized Milk and Raw Milk. He doesn't even think there's a difference between Grass Fed and Grain Feed Beef. And then, when he started to eat Fruit at the end of his meal and I pointed out how we should eat Fruit on an empty stomach, he scoffed at me as if he actually thinks he knows more about Nutrition, especially about the Elimination Cycle, than I do. I was also going to coach him on a Juice Fast since he had experience with Water Fasting and he knew he had to get rid of the Dioxins that almost killed him, but he bailed on me. And then, when he started to talk about Viruses Causing Cancer during his talk, I knew this guy was clueless and all I could do is shake my head. It's a shame he can't admit the FLAWS in his Study and somehow correct them, but the way it stands now, the only thing he PROVED is that COOKED ANIMAL PRODUCTS are BAD!!!

Peace and Love..........John





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2014 11:11PM by John Rose.

oh!

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe there is some research to suggest that
> more animals and natural inhabitants die as a
> result of agriculture, farms for mass commercial
> production of grains and other plantfoods.
> Something like 100 mice per hectare die for grain
> farms.
>
> Something to think about, aswell as anyone who
> imports lots of exotic foods whether vegan or not
> vegan, theres a reason why eating seasonally and
> local is recommended to lower enviromental
> issues.
>


I agree grains production and consumption is a big problem.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 12:07AM by Prana.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe there is some research to suggest that
> more animals and natural inhabitants die as a
> result of agriculture, farms for mass commercial
> production of grains and other plantfoods.
> Something like 100 mice per hectare die for grain
> farms.
>
> Something to think about, aswell as anyone who
> imports lots of exotic foods whether vegan or not
> vegan, theres a reason why eating seasonally and
> local is recommended to lower enviromental
> issues.
>


Really? Wayyyyyyyyy more animals die as a result of getting slaughtered in factory farms (or "humane" farms) than what you're suggesting happens as a result of growing plants. Billions every year. Not to mention it costs way more to produce food for animals that will eventually get slaughtered than it would if you used that food to feed other humans, and many of the places you're referring to are likely food grown to feed animals which will be killed in the near future so humans can consume them.

Stop filtering your nutrients through someone else lol, all of the nutrition you get from meat is from animals who eat plants. You're also consuming their negative energy and stress/fear hormones that run through their bodies as a result of being enslaved, tortured, and slaughtered.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 12:07AM by Prana.

Millions of natural wildlife and small animals are killed for commercial agriculture.

[abcnews.go.com]