powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Millions of natural wildlife and small animals are
> killed for commercial agriculture.
>
> [abcnews.go.com]


....

1.) No animals are being intentionally killed (and enslaved, tortured in the mean time) for human consumption.

2.) Nowhere near the amount of animals are killed when compared to factory farms and "humane" farms.

3.) These types of foods are also grown to feed animals who will ultimately be slaughtered, so it's not all 'vegetarian' food.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They are intentionally being killed, so commercial
> farms can be created. So really what this comes
> down is that its not ok to kill some animals for
> food but its ok to kill others.
>
> Agreed on point 3 and factory farming is terrible
> and shouldn't be supported, but it doesn't account
> for all farming.
>
> Veganism is not as ethical a diet as its often
> promoted to be, especially when you factor in the
> enviromental issues. Some of the fad vegan diets
> rely heavily on imported exotic fruits and
> plantfoods as there staple foods. Are these people
> eating much if any food which is grown locally and
> seasonally ?
>


You seem to be getting the definition of "intentionally" wrong. These farmers are not going out into fields and searching for wildlife to kill, or capturing them and bringing them back to consume, they are simply creating an area where they can grow food to feed/support themselves and unfortunately animals are killed because of the process. Animal farms intentionally enslave, exploit, and slaughter animals so they can eat and/or sell animal products. Pretty big difference.

The number of animals that lose their lives because of this is still petty compared to animal farms. Factory farms make up the majority of farms and there is no such thing as "humane slaughter" or "free range", they're just useless labels to make people feel better about themselves when it comes to eating or slaughtering animals. You cant say you care about animals and then chop them up and eat them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 12:07AM by Prana.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They are intentionally being killed, so commercial
> farms can be created. So really what this comes
> down is that its not ok to kill some animals for
> food but its ok to kill others.

True. We don't have good answers for these horrors yet but when we do they will be vegan, IMO. The so called "invasive weeds", tree forests, sprouting, and sustainably harvested seaweed will play a big role.


> Veganism is not as ethical a diet as its often
> promoted to be, especially when you factor in the
> enviromental issues. Some of the fad vegan diets
> rely heavily on imported exotic fruits and
> plantfoods as there staple foods. Are these people
> eating much if any food which is grown locally and
> seasonally ?


I disagree with you that buying local is necessarily better than buying food that has to be transported. I am not a numbers cruncher but I have read convincing articles by them on how the call to locovorism is misinformed and that it is neither cheaper nor more efficient in the long run. On top of that the farmers markets in my area offer nothing of value. I refuse to support them as long as I can get high quality food elsewhere. Especially when it costs less.

Is veganism ethical? I'm certainly not patting myself on the back. I'm just trying to get healthier and prefer to rationalize that the money I spend on food is money I would otherwise have to spend on meds and hospitalizations. However, my mind isn't so compartmentalized to not realize that vegans such as me and fullyrawchristina, could probably save several families a week from starving to death with the money spent to just feed ourselves.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> powerlifter Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > They are intentionally being killed, so
> commercial
> > farms can be created. So really what this comes
> > down is that its not ok to kill some animals
> for
> > food but its ok to kill others.
>
> True. We don't have good answers for these
> horrors yet but when we do they will be vegan,
> IMO. The so called "invasive weeds", tree forests,
> sprouting, and sustainably harvested seaweed will
> play a big role.
>
>
> > Veganism is not as ethical a diet as its often
> > promoted to be, especially when you factor in
> the
> > enviromental issues. Some of the fad vegan
> diets
> > rely heavily on imported exotic fruits and
> > plantfoods as there staple foods. Are these
> people
> > eating much if any food which is grown locally
> and
> > seasonally ?
>
>
> I disagree with you that buying local is
> necessarily better than buying food that has to be
> transported. I am not a numbers cruncher but I
> have read convincing articles by them on how the
> call to locovorism is misinformed and that it is
> neither cheaper nor more efficient in the long
> run. On top of that the farmers markets in my area
> offer nothing of value. I refuse to support them
> as long as I can get high quality food elsewhere.
> Especially when it costs less.
>
> Is veganism ethical? I'm certainly not patting
> myself on the back. I'm just trying to get
> healthier and prefer to rationalize that the money
> I spend on food is money I would otherwise have to
> spend on meds and hospitalizations. However, my
> mind isn't so compartmentalized to not realize
> that vegans such as me and fullyrawchristina,
> could probably save several families a week from
> starving to death with the money spent to just
> feed ourselves.


How is eating locally not more efficient? You're supporting your community instead of big chain companies, the food travel is way less, and the produce is usually much cheaper for the consumer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2014 06:45PM by jtprindl.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SueZ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > powerlifter Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > They are intentionally being killed, so
> > commercial
> > > farms can be created. So really what this
> comes
> > > down is that its not ok to kill some animals
> > for
> > > food but its ok to kill others.
> >
> > True. We don't have good answers for these
> > horrors yet but when we do they will be vegan,
> > IMO. The so called "invasive weeds", tree
> forests,
> > sprouting, and sustainably harvested seaweed
> will
> > play a big role.
> >
> >
> > > Veganism is not as ethical a diet as its
> often
> > > promoted to be, especially when you factor in
> > the
> > > enviromental issues. Some of the fad vegan
> > diets
> > > rely heavily on imported exotic fruits and
> > > plantfoods as there staple foods. Are these
> > people
> > > eating much if any food which is grown
> locally
> > and
> > > seasonally ?
> >
> >
> > I disagree with you that buying local is
> > necessarily better than buying food that has to
> be
> > transported. I am not a numbers cruncher but I
> > have read convincing articles by them on how
> the
> > call to locovorism is misinformed and that it
> is
> > neither cheaper nor more efficient in the long
> > run. On top of that the farmers markets in my
> area
> > offer nothing of value. I refuse to support
> them
> > as long as I can get high quality food
> elsewhere.
> > Especially when it costs less.
> >
> > Is veganism ethical? I'm certainly not
> patting
> > myself on the back. I'm just trying to get
> > healthier and prefer to rationalize that the
> money
> > I spend on food is money I would otherwise have
> to
> > spend on meds and hospitalizations. However, my
> > mind isn't so compartmentalized to not realize
> > that vegans such as me and fullyrawchristina,
> > could probably save several families a week
> from
> > starving to death with the money spent to just
> > feed ourselves.
>
>
> How is eating locally not more efficient? You're
> supporting your community instead of big chain
> companies, the food travel is way less, and the
> produce is usually much cheaper for the consumer.

It might be more efficient for certain individuals. The number crunchers' articles I've read say it's personal efficiency does not scale up.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not to mention it is usually fresher because its
> not been flown half way across the world.
>

Sure it is in places like Venice Beach, CA. I can buy more mineral dense food that's been shipped from Peru, the Philippines, and Mexico, which also shows more care in the growing,than anything at my local farmer's markets. I am proudly not a Locovore for that reason.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 12:07AM by Prana.

I couldn't eat locally even if I tried/wanted, because here during winter we only have local sweet fruits such as apples/pears, which is not enough variety for me. We never grow here bananas/oranges/clementines and other exotic fruits, so eating locally for me would mean eating a very poor variety of sweet fruits.

The same happens with the non-sweet fruits and veggies, only imported ones during winter. We do have lettuce, spinach, parsley, dill and other herbs, some roots, obviously potatoes, etc. which are grown in the glass houses.

During warmer months we have plenty variety of local fruits: watermelons, honey melons, cherries, sour cherries, apricots, peaches, nectarines, plums, grapes, wild berries, so I only buy bananas which are imported.

Also during warmer months we have plenty of veggies and greens and non-sweet fruits, so I again eat locally.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Raw vegan for life. Vegan for the animals. Raw for my health.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> powerlifter Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Not to mention it is usually fresher because
> its
> > not been flown half way across the world.
> >
>
> Sure it is in places like Venice Beach, CA. I
> can buy more mineral dense food that's been
> shipped from Peru, the Philippines, and Mexico,
> which also shows more care in the growing,than
> anything at my local farmer's markets. I am
> proudly not a Locovore for that reason.


How would you know if it's more mineral dense? Buying produce that was grown in a different country is buying produce that's severely deplete in nutrients. If you're talking about dried fruit, that's different, but fresh fruit shipped from out of the country is not only picked unripe but isn't even comparable to fresh, local produce in regards to nutrition.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 12:07AM by Prana.

> How would you know if it's more mineral dense?

There are no fruits available in my locality at farmer's markets. I'm talking about vegetables.

It's very easy to tell the difference between vegetables which have been grown in mineral rich soil from the rest when you've been vegetarian for a long time.

> Buying produce that was grown in a different
> country is buying produce that's severely deplete
> in nutrients.

That sounds pretty silly. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean. Can you say it in a different way?

If you're talking about dried fruit,
> that's different, but fresh fruit shipped from out
> of the country is not only picked unripe but isn't
> even comparable to fresh, local produce in regards
> to nutrition.

Almost all fruit these days is picked unripe. The US is not an exception to this.
Most local soils in the breadbasket states have been ruined. I support intelligently run farms where the soils have been built up and the produce passes my taste test. Thank heavens the wheel and refrigerated transport have been invented so I don't have to buy the limp low mineral veggies at the local farmer's markets.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2014 09:00PM by SueZ.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > How would you know if it's more mineral dense?
>
> There are no fruits available in my locality at
> farmer's markets. I'm talking about vegetables.
>
> It's very easy to tell the difference between
> vegetables which have been grown in mineral rich
> soil from the rest when you've been vegetarian for
> a long time.
>
> > Buying produce that was grown in a different
> > country is buying produce that's severely
> deplete
> > in nutrients.
>
> That sounds pretty silly. Maybe I'm
> misunderstanding what you mean. Can you say it in
> a different way?
>
> If you're talking about dried fruit,
> > that's different, but fresh fruit shipped from
> out
> > of the country is not only picked unripe but
> isn't
> > even comparable to fresh, local produce in
> regards
> > to nutrition.
>
> Almost all fruit these days is picked unripe.
> The US is not an exception to this.
> Most local soils in the breadbasket states
> have been ruined. I support intelligently run
> farms where the soils have been built up and the
> produce passes my taste test. Thank heavens the
> wheel and refrigerated transport have been
> invented so I don't have to buy the limp low
> mineral veggies at the local farmer's markets.


Most, if not all store-bought produce isn't fresh and yes I include food grown in America. It's picked unripe and weeks old, making it deficient in nutrition. Also, refrigerating fruit has been shown to decrease antioxidant content by 80% and destroys more nutrition than freezing does.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2014 09:07PM by jtprindl.

> Most, if not all store-bought produce isn't fresh
> and yes I include food grown in America. It's
> picked unripe and weeks old, making it deficient
> in nutrition. Also, refrigerating fruit has been
> shown to decrease antioxidant content by 80% and
> destroys more nutrition than freezing does.

It's even worse than that. I read some where that produce sitting in grocery stores lose even more nutrition just by being exposed to light 24/7 instead of the natural day/night lighting.

You wouldn't believe how much better and sweeter carrots tasted even back in the 80's. The soil and water are ruined and they plant them all jammed right next to each other now.

I grow stuff myself and dehydrate which helps a lot. But still there is nothing like seaweeds for boosting daily nutrient density, IMO. I eat lots of the most nutrient dense cruciferous veggies, too. I'm very hardcore about pounding in the nutrition dense greens. No iceberg lettuce for me, lol.

One solution: Indoor sprouting

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Most, if not all store-bought produce isn't
> fresh
> > and yes I include food grown in America. It's
> > picked unripe and weeks old, making it
> deficient
> > in nutrition. Also, refrigerating fruit has
> been
> > shown to decrease antioxidant content by 80%
> and
> > destroys more nutrition than freezing does.
>
> It's even worse than that. I read some where
> that produce sitting in grocery stores lose even
> more nutrition just by being exposed to light 24/7
> instead of the natural day/night lighting.
>
> You wouldn't believe how much better and
> sweeter carrots tasted even back in the 80's. The
> soil and water are ruined and they plant them all
> jammed right next to each other now.
>
> I grow stuff myself and dehydrate which helps
> a lot. But still there is nothing like seaweeds
> for boosting daily nutrient density, IMO. I eat
> lots of the most nutrient dense cruciferous
> veggies, too. I'm very hardcore about pounding in
> the nutrition dense greens. No iceberg lettuce for
> me, lol.

iceberg lettuce is very rich in nutrients.
And you can grow it indoor.

Omnivorous cat food has taurine added. lol

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SueZ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Most, if not all store-bought produce isn't
> > fresh
> > > and yes I include food grown in America. It's
> > > picked unripe and weeks old, making it
> > deficient
> > > in nutrition. Also, refrigerating fruit has
> > been
> > > shown to decrease antioxidant content by 80%
> > and
> > > destroys more nutrition than freezing does.
> >
> > It's even worse than that. I read some
> where
> > that produce sitting in grocery stores lose
> even
> > more nutrition just by being exposed to light
> 24/7
> > instead of the natural day/night lighting.
> >
> > You wouldn't believe how much better and
> > sweeter carrots tasted even back in the 80's.
> The
> > soil and water are ruined and they plant them
> all
> > jammed right next to each other now.
> >
> > I grow stuff myself and dehydrate which
> helps
> > a lot. But still there is nothing like seaweeds
> > for boosting daily nutrient density, IMO. I eat
> > lots of the most nutrient dense cruciferous
> > veggies, too. I'm very hardcore about pounding
> in
> > the nutrition dense greens. No iceberg lettuce
> for
> > me, lol.
>
> iceberg lettuce is very rich in nutrients.
> And you can grow it indoor.

I haven't had a good head of nutrient dense iceberg lettuce in decades. And I've bought a lot of so-called organic iceberg lettuce in my time. Hydroponically grown lettuce is also tasteless, and most likely nutritionally worthless, too.

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