are bad for you???

I thought crout was GREAT for the colon?!!

I am making it right now because of all the good things I heard, now in my Miso thread someone says fermented food is bad????

[www.rawfoodexplained.com]

rawrnr

If you look, you can probably find something bad said about every single food out there. NHers specialize in that dept. I you follow all of thier limitations you will become imaciated. NHers have that reputation too.

I make a kraut maker and it's one of the best selllers on my site.

Kraut is a favourite food of mine especially made with red cabbage. Great for digestion and probiotics. All who make it love it.

elnatural

Fermented food is not required to be healthy. The truth is the truth.
Wild animals living on growing greens and fruits are very healthy, they do not need fermented food.

Cultured and fermented foods are some of the best foods available to us. Check out the book "Wild Fermentation". I eat cultured foods every day. I make cheese out of nuts and seeds, kim chi and sauerkraut with vegetables and herbs, kombucha tea, real pickles, miso, kefir out of nut milk, and more.

Mike



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2006 09:30AM by Mike.

Quoted from 'Wild Fermentation' by Sandor Katz:

The process of fermenting foods—to preserve them and to make them more digestible and more nutritious—is as old as humanity. From the Tropics—where cassava is thrown into a hole in the ground to allow it to soften and sweeten—to the Arctic—where fish are customarily eaten “rotten” to the consistency of ice cream—fermented foods are valued for their health-giving properties and for their complex tastes.

Unfortunately, fermented foods have largely disappeared from the Western diet, much to the detriment of our health and economy. Fermented foods are a powerful aid to digestion and a protection against disease. And because fermentation is, by nature, an artisanal process, the disappearance of fermented foods has hastened the centralization and industrialization of our food supply, to the detriment of small farms and local economies.

The taste for fermented foods is usually an acquired taste. To those who have grown up with fermented foods, they offer the most sublime of eating experiences—and there are many that will appeal to Western tastes even without a long period of accustomization.

In the spirit of the great reformers and artists, Sandor Katz has labored mightily to deliver this magnum opus to a population hungry for a reconnection to real food and to the process of life itself. For fermented foods are not only satisfying to eat, they are also immensely satisfying to prepare.

From the first successful batch of kombucha to that thrilling taste of homemade sauerkraut, the practice of fermentation is one of partnership with microscopic life. This partnership leads to a reverence for all the processes that contribute to the wellbeing of the human race, from the production of enzymes by invisible bacteria to the gift of milk and meat from the sacred cow.

The science and art of fermentation is, in fact, the basis of human culture: without culturing, there is no culture. Nations that still consume cultured foods, such as France with its wine and cheese, and Japan with its pickles and miso, are recognized as nations that have culture.

Culture begins at the farm, not in the opera house, and binds a people to a land and its artisans. Many commentators have observed that America is a nation lacking culture—how can we be cultured when we eat only food that has been canned, pasteurized, and embalmed? How ironic that the road to culture in our germophobic technological society requires, first and foremost, that we enter into an alchemical relationship with bacteria and fungi, and that we bring to our tables foods and beverages prepared by the magicians, not machines.

Wild Fermentation represents not only an effort to bring back from oblivion these treasured processes but also a road map to a better world, a world of healthy people and equitable economies, a world that especially values those iconoclastic, free-thinking individuals—so often labeled misfits—uniquely qualified to perform the alchemy of fermented foods.

- Quoted from the introduction to the best selling book "Wild Fermentation"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2006 09:29AM by Mike.

Mike your article is correct, it is comparing fermented food to cooked food and in that sense it is a good step, there are some good bacterias one get from fermented foods.

But one living and growing food such as sprouts and greens we do not need fermented food because the food is its raw state has PLENTY of living and beneficial bacterias.

For years the hyprocrate institute of Ann Wigmore was promoting the use of rejuvelac a fermented drink make from wheat. But when a scientic study when done on rejuvelac it is was discovered that more than half of the batches were contaminated with bad bacterias so all of these years at the institute people were reporting good health not because of the rejuvelac but in spite of it.
Here is the quote from tom billings:

Quote

Rejuvelac. We used to call it rejuve-rot. It is not a Hippocrates invention, it is a traditional drink from the Baltic countries. We used it in the past because we thought it had lacto-bacteria. We paid for a study on rejuvelac; we naively thought the fermentation would always be good bacteria. The study found that this was not the case; 40% of the batches tested were good, 60% were bad. Also, you cannot tell by the smell if the bacteria are good or bad. Instead, you can use acidophilus supplements, and they can be taken as implants also.

[www.living-foods.com]

[listserv.icors.org]


I live on sprouts, indoor greens and grasses and these foods have plenty of friendly bacterias that make the use of the questionable fermented food unnecessary.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2006 11:21AM by djatchi.

Hi djatchi,

If cultured foods are questionable, then why are they used daily at all the living foods retreats such as Hippocrates, Tree of Life, Optimum Health, Creative Health, Hallelujah Acres, Living Foods Institute, etc...? I trust that these living food centers know what they are doing. They would not feed questionable foods to people.

Hi Mike

You'd think that people who are against coultured foods must believe there are no bacteria whatsover in our intestenes, that nothing ferments there, and everything comes out looking exaclty like how it went in. They must believe it is neccessary to drink strong antibacterial solutions to kill all bacteria inside of us.

elnatural

Mike
The good thing about diet and live food is that we are experimenting not on something outside of us but on oursevles, we can tell the next day if the move works or not. I do not need the Gabriel Cousens, the david wolfe and the health center to tell me what works. Simple common sense and the need to get closer to nature.
Cultured food may be good but its quality is questionable because there is no clear way to tell if a batch has good bacteria or bad bacteria. I would not put such a questionable drink in my body when I have plenty of greens, growing sprouts, fruits full of living enzymes. Effort should be made to have a working digestive system but putting fermented food in it is not the best approach.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2006 02:26AM by djatchi.

I agree with djatchi that fermented foods are not required for good health.

Fermented foods are foods that have been subjected to a controlled decomposition or rotting process. Are you naturally drawn to rotten foods? When I have a head of lettuce in my fridge starting to turn brown, black, and green with mold, I do not think to eat this dead rotting food. In that dead rotting lettuce are the same toxic byproducts found in fermented foods - acetic acid and alcohol.

If one is not drawn to rotten food, why would one be drawn to a food that has been subjected to a controlled rot? Here are the reasons (though I personally don't eat this stuff)

1. The rotting process softens up tough foods. Foods that are hard to digest in their raw state, or are tough, say like cabbage or broccoli, get softened by the rotting process. As these foods rot, and the cellulose walls start to break down, they come easier to chew and are more pleasant to chew than the tough raw product.

2. The food tastes better because of the added salt. Salt is used to control the growth of bacteria during the rotting process, and simply placing the kraut into the fridge completely stops the process. While raw cabbage and broccoli may not taste that interesting in its whole raw fresh state, with the addition of salt it becomes quite tasty.

3. Because the food is stored either canned or refrigerated in a salt water solution, it can be stored indefinitely (though the life force of the food still erodes over time).

Whether or not to eat ferments is sort of like asking oneself whether or not one should cook their foods. It provides many of the advantages of cooking: food can be preserved indefinitely, the food is softened to a softness comparable to ripe fruit or soft tender greens, and the foods has its flavor enhanced by the salt.

But is does have some disadvantages also. Salt is addictive, and eating fermented foods propagates that addiction. The byproducts of fermentation, the acetic acid and alcohol are toxic to the body, and require the body to do some extra work to clean up the toxins. For many people exposed to these toxins, there may be a pleasant stimulating feeling, a feeling of energy as the body removes these toxins out of the body. However, while the stimulation may feel good, this is energy that could have gone into healing or other activities.

This is an interesting topic. Fermentation does increase the vitamin content of foods. B12 Vitamin can only be made by bacteria. Other plant foods that contain B12 absorb it from the bacteria that make it. Also I think that natural fermentation increases vitamin C in foods.

This is an interesting topic to me, too.

I've been non-raw for a while and just recently got back on. I have previously done the raw diet a number of different ways, originally very strictly with no salt or condiments, no packaged foods at all, no dehydrated foods, and little fat (no oils). Then, I ate a mono fruit diet during the day and a large raw vegetable salad at night, seasoned with a little lemon juice and mashed avocado. I'd have 1/2 avocado per day, and that was all my fat intake. No nuts as i wanted to lose weight.

As you can imagine, I was hungry all the time. But I had good results in a number of areas. Up til that time in my life, I had what was termed 'growing pains' - aching arms and legs. Within 6 weeks on that diet, all those pains were gone. Intuitively I felt that was due to cutting out salt. (By the way, those pains never returned, even though I later added salt and other nasty stuff to my diet. I've always been vegetarian however, even before I went raw for the first time.)

More recently a few years ago I did the raw diet that most of the people on this board seem to use: if it's raw it's ok. I'd season things with himalayan salt or Nama Shoyu, ate nuts, dried fruits, the seed pates, etc. I did that for a couple of years, and during that time I occasionally cut out salt for a couple of weeks at a time. Whenever I did, I noticed my appetite would go way down, and I'd feel better.

So I agree with Bryan about the salt, for sure.

I'm not so sure about the sauerkraut. I intend to test that for myself once I've been raw again for a few months, see how it feels with it and without it.

But anyhow, I wanted to share my experience with salt.

Here's an interesting paper about the consumption of fermented fruits by our early human and primate ancestors:

You can read the full text here:
[icb.oxfordjournals.org]

And here's some snippets:

>>>
Ethanol is a naturally occurring substance resulting from the fermentation by yeast of fruit sugars. The association between yeasts and angiosperms dates to the Cretaceous, and dietary exposure of diverse frugivorous taxa to ethanol is similarly ancient. Ethanol plumes can potentially be used to localize ripe fruit, and consumption of low-concentration ethanol within fruit may act as a feeding stimulant. Ripe and over-ripe fruits of the Neotropical palm Astrocaryum standleyanum contained ethanol within the pulp at concentrations averaging 0.9% and 4.5%, respectively. Fruit ripening was associated with significant changes in color, puncture resistance, sugar, and ethanol content. Natural consumption rates of ethanol via frugivory and associated blood levels are not known for any animal taxon. However, behavioral responses to ethanol may have been the target of natural selection for all frugivorous species, including many primates and the hominoid lineages ancestral to modern humans. Pre-existing sensory biases associating this ancient psychoactive compound with nutritional reward might accordingly underlie contemporary patterns of alcohol consumption and abuse.
<<<

>>>
An evolutionary perspective on alcohol consumption and abuse
The presence of ethanol within ripe fruit suggests low-level but chronic dietary exposure to this molecule for all fruit-eating taxa. Volatilized alcohols from fruit potentially serve in olfactory localization of transient nutritional resources, whereas ethanol consumed during the course of frugivory may act as an appetitive stimulant (Dudley, 2000Go, 2002Go). As a consequence, natural selection may have acted on all frugivorous taxa, including human ancestors, to associate ethanol consumption with nutritional reward. Vertebrate frugivores in the wild would accordingly be predicted to selectively consume those fruits containing ethanol. Preference for and excessive consumption of alcohol by modern humans might then derive from pre-existing sensory biases associating ethanol with ancestral dietary strategies.

Frugivory characterizes many primate taxa, including most taxa ancestral to modern humans (Fig. 3). Basal primates were likely nocturnal and consumed both insects and fruits (Ravosa and Savakova, 2004Go; see also Bloch and Boyer, 2002Go; Ni et al., 2004Go). Fruit-eating also characterized a number of now extinct hominoid lineages (e.g., Afropithecinae, Dryopithecinae, Kenyapithecinae; see Teaford and Walker, 1984Go; Pickford, 1985Go; Teaford, 1988Go; Andrews and Martin, 1991Go; Andrews, 1992Go, 1996Go; Kay et al., 1997Go). All extant hominoids with the exception of highland gorillas are strongly frugivorous. Our nearest living relatives, the chimpanzees, are characterized by a diet consisting primarily of ripe fruit (McGrew et al., 1988Go; Wrangham et al., 1991Go; Malenky and Wrangham, 1994Go). Humans diverged from chimpanzees about 5 Ma (mega-annum), but up until 2 Ma probably had a similar diet (Gaulin and Konner, 1977Go; Grine and Kay, 1988Go). Dietary diversification has characterized human evolution in the last two million years (Eaton et al., 1997Go; Milton, 1999Go; Sponheimer and Lee-Thorp, 1999Go), but fruit consumption likely remained an important feature of the human diet until the Neolithic advent of agriculture. Consumption of low-concentration ethanol in the course of frugivory was thus characteristic of most hominoid taxa, including precursors to modern humans, over millions of years of evolution.
<<<

----------------------------

well, actually the whole article is fascinating so here's the link again:
[icb.oxfordjournals.org]

what about the hype on the benefits of apple cisar vinegar? AKA braggs?
That is fermented!

what about the hype on the benefits of apple cider vinegar? AKA braggs?
That is fermented!

rawrnr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what about the hype on the benefits of apple cider
> vinegar? AKA braggs?
> That is fermented!
It is just hype. [www.findarticles.com]

I make a delicious salad dressing with Braggs apple cider vinegar. I like it.

Quote:
"The use of Bragg Organic Apple Cider Vinegar is a wonderful health aid, and the #1 food I recommend in helping to maintain the body's vital acid-alkine balance. Everyone should read the Bragg Apple Cider Vinegar book."
- Dr. Gabriel Cousens, M.D.

Mike Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I make a delicious salad dressing with Braggs
> apple cider vinegar. I like it.
>
> Quote:
> "The use of Bragg Organic Apple Cider Vinegar is a
> wonderful health aid, and the #1 food I recommend
> in helping to maintain the body's vital
> acid-alkine balance. Everyone should read the
> Bragg Apple Cider Vinegar book."
> - Dr. Gabriel Cousens, M.D.
It is pretty well known that Dr. Gabriel Cousens recommends a lot of supplements, he is running a business.
Now Apple Cider Vinegar is one of them.
I prefer to achive the acid-alkline balance thru the raw fruits and greens that I eat.

Mike Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I make a delicious salad dressing with Braggs
> apple cider vinegar. I like it.
>
> Quote:
> "The use of Bragg Organic Apple Cider Vinegar is a
> wonderful health aid, and the #1 food I recommend
> in helping to maintain the body's vital
> acid-alkine balance. Everyone should read the
> Bragg Apple Cider Vinegar book."
> - Dr. Gabriel Cousens, M.D.

It is pretty well known that Dr. Gabriel Cousens recommends a lot of supplements.
Now Apple Cider Vinegar is one of them.

I prefer to achive the acid-alkline balance thru the raw fruits and greens I eat.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2006 08:31AM by djatchi.

OK, I read this the other day and none of it made sense, I reread it today and I think I know what isn't making sense.

Bryan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fermented foods are foods that have been subjected
> to a controlled decomposition or rotting process.
> Are you naturally drawn to rotten foods? When I
> have a head of lettuce in my fridge starting to
> turn brown, black, and green with mold, I do not
> think to eat this dead rotting food. In that dead
> rotting lettuce are the same toxic byproducts
> found in fermented foods - acetic acid and
> alcohol.

Rotting food can include fermentation, but fermentation does NOT include rotting. This is the key thing that wasn't making sense to me (hence the rest didn't make sense).

> If one is not drawn to rotten food, why would one
> be drawn to a food that has been subjected to a
> controlled rot? Here are the reasons (though I
> personally don't eat this stuff)

Since fermentation doesn't not include rotting, it's not such a great comparision. However, I do (and maybe even you!) like some foods to have started their decomposition cylce. Bananas for example, I can't stand them until they are atleast spotty. Apples taste a lot better after a frost which kicks off their decomposition cycle (a trick from the cider makers!). Also, there are fruits that are not edible until after they have started to decompose (again, normally trigger by a frost) - unfortunately I can't remember the name of the of one I wanted to use as an example (smallish fruit, has been growing wild in England for 100s of years, anybody?).

> 1. The rotting process softens up tough foods.
> Foods that are hard to digest in their raw state,
> or are tough, say like cabbage or broccoli, get
> softened by the rotting process. As these foods
> rot, and the cellulose walls start to break down,
> they come easier to chew and are more pleasant to
> chew than the tough raw product.

OK, more information that makes me think you are mistaken in your interputation of fermentation and rotting being the same thing. My fermented foods are crunchy. Long after the veggies would have wilted, long after any of the veggies would have decomposed to goo, my fermented veggies are 99% as crunchy as they where fresh. This a major appeal to me. If I want soft veggies, I put them in dehydrator for a couple of hours.

> 2. The food tastes better because of the added
> salt. Salt is used to control the growth of
> bacteria during the rotting process, and simply
> placing the kraut into the fridge completely stops
> the process. While raw cabbage and broccoli may
> not taste that interesting in its whole raw fresh
> state, with the addition of salt it becomes quite
> tasty.

I think this is true, but I also think that standard fermentation recipes use way too much salt, a little is all you need, and the less salt, the quicker your fermentation. My last batch (a big hit at thanks giving), I used more salt than I like, normally I can't taste the salt in my fermented veggies.

> 3. Because the food is stored either canned or
> refrigerated in a salt water solution, it can be
> stored indefinitely (though the life force of the
> food still erodes over time).

YAY! I can eat raw veggies all winter. I think fermenting to preserve food is execellent from a raw food point of view. I try to keep fermented foods on hand as part of my "emergency" (as in no food avaliable because an earth quake) food supply. I don't disagree that the food "erodes" it's nutritional value of time, but it seems to happen very very slowly for properly fermented foods.

> Whether or not to eat ferments is sort of like
> asking oneself whether or not one should cook
> their foods. It provides many of the advantages of
> cooking: food can be preserved indefinitely, the
> food is softened to a softness comparable to ripe
> fruit or soft tender greens, and the foods has its
> flavor enhanced by the salt.

I think comparing fermented foods to freezing or dehydrating is more appropriate. Comparing them to cooked foods? Sorry I don't get that point.

> But is does have some disadvantages also. Salt is
> addictive, and eating fermented foods propagates
> that addiction. The byproducts of fermentation,
> the acetic acid and alcohol are toxic to the body,
> and require the body to do some extra work to
> clean up the toxins. For many people exposed to
> these toxins, there may be a pleasant stimulating
> feeling, a feeling of energy as the body removes
> these toxins out of the body. However, while the
> stimulation may feel good, this is energy that
> could have gone into healing or other activities.

So, your saying that when you detox after eating fermented foods you get a pleasant stimulating feeling? Are you sure that it's not the pro-biotic goodness and electrolites that are giving you the pleasant feeling?

I find some of what you say to match up with the material I've found on fermented food, but the rest should be taken with, er, a pinch of salt (heheh).

How long have you/where you eating fermented foods and how where you fermenting you foods?

I've only being fermented veggies for maybe a year, most of my info has come from a friends who worked at fermented whole foods place, the internet/google.com and 'Wild Fermentation' by Sandor Katz (oh that book rocks) given to me as gift when I was a fermentation skeptic.

Cheers,
Ian.

Ian,

I've eaten fermented foods all my life, whether it was ketchup as a child (which contains vinegar) to beer as a child to krauts/kimchee/picked veggies as an adult.

In addition, I've experienced fermentation in my digestive system all my pre-raw life (and some during raw, though way way less). Where do you thing gas (flatuence) comes from?

Why is it hard to accept that fermentation is part of the rotting process?

Ian

Great reply at debunking a very negetive, twisted, deceptive post. I had all of the same thoughts and more but just prayed that no one would be tricked by all of the wrong info. May all of you out there have the eyes of Ian.

thanks!

elnatural

mmmmm I LOVE sauerkraut

I don't know if it is necessary for health, but I think it is extremely valuable to get the body back into balance

I dunno... I just like it

hey question- I just got a WONDERFUL kraut making jar... how do you guys who make it do it? I've read of a few different methods: 1) With salt 2) No salt, but you blend cabbage & water to make brine 3) Either 1 or 2 and with a probiotic 4) miso is the probiotic

any suggestions?

Bryan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've eaten fermented foods all my life, whether it
> was ketchup as a child (which contains vinegar) to
> beer as a child to krauts/kimchee/picked veggies
> as an adult.

Hehe, "beer as child", I like it, I've often wonder if we stop being children when we stop drinking beer.

I was thinking more of raw fermented foods, like the krauts/kimchee/picked veggies you meantion. I'd never through of ketchup as a fermented food, but yes one ingredient has been fermented!

> In addition, I've experienced fermentation in my
> digestive system all my pre-raw life (and some
> during raw, though way way less). Where do you
> thing gas (flatuence) comes from?

Yes, fermentation can happen in animal digestive systems give the right conditions , and I agree it will cause flatuence.

> Why is it hard to accept that fermentation is part
> of the rotting process?

I have no problem accepting that "fermentation is part of the rotting process", but because of the lack of putrefying micro-organisms in a controlled (and many uncontrolled) fermentation environment, I cannot accept that fermentation is rotting.

Fermentation gone wrong will result in rotting. The salt added to saurkraut will prevent the putrefying micro-organisms taking a hold. In some fermentations it's an acidic Ph level - but, the Ph level goes back to normal during the process, so you've got to catch it before any putrefying micro-organisms take a hold, which isn't hard give the welth of fermentation information avaliable. In some fermentation (such as beer and wine) the key is to keep the fermentation environment very clean and normally sealed with an airlock to prevent putrefying micro-organism from being present.

I do respect your belief that fermented foods do not contribute to your health and support you in your choice. I find fermented foods useful in maintaining levels of health and happyness that I had no idea were possible.

Btw, I like your smiling picture, makes all you write come across as written in the kindess and most gental manner, which I'm sure it always is.

Cheers,
Ian.

Hey elnatural, you are welcome!

I'm eating sauerkraut just now, I've mixed in some avocado, very yummy.

Hey MissSunshine, here is my favourite sauerkraut recipe.

You need:
1 small/medium head of green cabbage
2 medium/large heads of red/purple gabbage
a few carrots
1 large onion
1 small/medium head of garlic
some salt

Shred (slice it up with a sharp knife) the gabbages, but save some large outer leaves for the top.

Shred some carrots, slice some thin, slice some thin long ways, make fancy shapes if you like!

Slice up the onion.

Small cloves of garlic can go in hold, meduim sided and large cloves should be chopped into smaller but reconizable chunks.

Mix up the ingredients (you can also just sprinking them on in different layers). Put a layer of veggies in the bottom of your pot and press down on them, sprinkle a small amount of salt, then put down another layer in (an 1" or 2 of veggies pre-layer, press down on that layer as hard as you can (without hurting yourself or breaking the pot), put a little salt down, more veggies, press, salt, veggies, press, salt veggies, press, keep repeating until your pot is two thirds full or you run out of veggies. Now, press down hard, I use my fists for pressing down and almost lift myself up pressing down so hard. Place the large whole leaves you saved earlier on top, this stops bits of shredded veggies from floating up passed the side of your weight. Next put the weight on the top, I have small pots that fit almost perfectly in my big pots (my 1mm clearance on the side), i fill these with water and fit them in to keep press on the veggies, I'll give it a press down once in a while to help get the juices out of the cabbage. Use a rubber band to secure a cloth over the top to prevent beasties for entering.

After 24 hours, check on the level of juice (or brine), with any luck the juice has covered the veggies. If it hasn't covered the veggies, then you might need to add some more brine, just mix some salt and water and add a it until the cabbage is covered.

After a few days, give it a taste. Becareful, if there is crude on the surface of the the brine you don't want to get it on the veggies. Since there is such a small gap between my pot on the weight, I don't get much crude. I just mix up some water and salt, add a little until the pot over flows and crude floats off. I've heard that mold on the surface is normal, but I've only seen bubbles from the fermentation process in mine.

Taste it again after another couple of days (or every day if you like), once it stops tasting better each time and just tastes great, then store it in the fridge to stop the process going any farther. I transfer mine to jars so my pots of free for new batches, but you've still got to make sure the brine covers the veggies. The top leaves can some times taste bitter, I don't normally keep them (although I eat some of the last batch).

I might have missed something, but I'm pretty that should be enough info to do it. If I remember I'll take pictures next time (one of pots in glass and you can see it progress).

Cheers,
Ian.

sodoffsocks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, there are fruits
> that are not edible until after they have started
> to decompose (again, normally trigger by a frost)
> - unfortunately I can't remember the name of the
> of one I wanted to use as an example (smallish
> fruit, has been growing wild in England for 100s
> of years, anybody?).

Medlar. Although when grown in the medeteranian, it ripens properly and doesn't need 'bletting'.

Rob

--
Rob Hull - Funky Raw
My blog: [www.rawrob.com]

Animals in the wild do sometimes eat fermented foods, animals like crows and elephants have been seen to knock fruits and berries off trees and let them ferment for a while before eating them, effectively making them tipsy.

I am sure that as with everything you should eat them in moderation.

Thank you Ian! I think i'll make some today...

Fermented foods are foods that have been subjected to a controlled decomposition or rotting process. Are you naturally drawn to rotten foods? When I have a head of lettuce in my fridge starting to turn brown, black, and green with mold, I do not think to eat this dead rotting food. In that dead rotting lettuce are the same toxic byproducts found in fermented foods - acetic acid and alcohol.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No! there is no connection between fermentation and rotting! You’re going out of your way on a very twisted path to make rotting and fermentation the exact same thing to discredit fermentation. Rotting is all kinds of bacteria acting on any living thing to turn it into soil again. Rotting includes all harmful bacteria that do produce bad smells and waste products. For you to equate rotting and fermentation is like to say your dead cabbage is no different than fine wines. If rotting is the same as fermentation then why do wineries go to the trouble of letting wines age for years in complicated processes? Why not just crush the grapes leave them outside and let them rot. So you saying that wine is a dead rotten stinking substance. If wine is so dead and stinking rotten why the effort to make it , why the high sales, why the high prices. Soy sauce and miso are other long aged or fermented foods. Fermentation does not result in bad waste products. Fermentation does not reduce foods back to soil. For you to say bacteria acting on food is bad, you have to believe that there are no bacteria inside of us. If you do believe bacteria are inside of us and only good ones why can’t that process be duplicated outside of the body. Whatever your many laws of limitation say they must apply in every case. You can’t selectively make them apply just where you want something to appear to bad and deadly. In many countries of the world, fermented products have been staples for generations. Look at Korea and Japan. Their health is far superior than to those on sad in the usa. Now let’s take inventory of very common fermented foods on the market today.
Yogurt
Wines
Pickles
Miso
Soy Sauce
Cheese
Suarkraut
Kim Chee.
Beer
Kefir
Kombuchi

Are you calling all of the above dead stinking rotten horrible worthless products like your cabbage?

Now to fermentation. Fermentation uses bacteria but only the good ones of your choice to control the outcome. Fermented products stop fermenting at some point and do not return back to soil as in rotting. When I make red cabbage kraut it comes out a brilliant red color more so that the original cabbage. The food is more digestable saving the digestive system much energy. Digestion takes lots of energy. It also puts good bacteria in us for proper digestion. Many people have and do survive long snowy winters on fermented foods made in the fall. Also people used it for crossing oceans in earlier time.

Your homework assignment, answer these questions:

Are there any bacteria in the human intestines, what kind are they, what do they have to do with digestion, and what are their byproducts if any related to digestion.
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If one is not drawn to rotten food, why would one be drawn to a food that has been subjected to a controlled rot? Here are the reasons (though I personally don't eat this stuff)

1. The rotting process softens up tough foods. The rotting process softens foods that are hard to digest in their raw state, or are tough, say like cabbage or broccoli. As these foods rot, and the cellulose walls start to break down, they come easier to chew and are more pleasant to chew than the tough raw product.
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You now continue the twisted behavior by interchanging rotting and fermenting. I just showed above how they are not the same thing at all. But you keep trying to make them appear to be the same thing. I don’t ferment foods to soften them, I do it to make them more digestible and to culture probiotics. One small measure of probiotics powder becomes a whole jar of it. A huge money savings. Cabbage and broccoli are not hard to digest or hard to chew in the natural state, I use them both that way all of the time. You keep making things up.
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2. The food tastes better because of the added salt. Salt is used to control the growth of bacteria during the rotting process, and simply placing the kraut into the fridge completely stops the process. While raw cabbage and broccoli may not taste that interesting in its whole raw fresh state, with the addition of salt it becomes quite tasty. One of your laws of limitation says all foods taste good in the natural state so don't use any spices or herbs to try to change them. Here you say cabbage and broccoli don't taste good in the natural state. You violate your own law to try to create another law of limitation.
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You continue with the twisted behavior of equating rotting and fermenting.
When I make kruat and add the salt it is too salty to eat. But after fermentation there is no salt flavor at all. I don’t like salty foods and wouldn’t be able to eat if it was. Now you are trying to tell people what they should consider good and bad tasting. I eat both cabbage and broccoli raw all the time and it tastes very good. I ferment foods to make them more digestible and culture probiotics. No salt is needed to ferment. You need to quit saying salt is the only way to ferment. Nut and seed cheeses never any salt. Yogurt no salt, Wine no salt, kefir no salt, kombuchi no salt, Fermentation stops then you refrigerate, not the other way around.
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3. Because the food is stored either canned or refrigerated in a salt water solution, it can be stored indefinitely (though the life force of the food still erodes over time).
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Now you say that fermentation should not be used because the life force goes away. Then you must also believe that refrigeration of foods shouldn’t be used either because even that reduces life forces. You must only believe in pick and eat and no storage of any kind ever.
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elnatural