I have been transitioning to raw since July 2014. I was a vegetarian for 15 years before that, so it wasn't as big of a shock to the system. However, after going raw, I've found I have really been craving fatty foods like nuts, seeds and avocados despite eating a whole lot of greens and fruit. I've actually gained about 10 pounds since going raw. Guessing that has to do with all the fatty foods. Wondering what is an acceptable amount of fattier foods to eat? A handful a day? 2? Eat as much as I want? lol. I have been eating 3 or 4 handfuls of nuts/seeds a day or 2 avocados and a handful of nuts. I'm a 26 y/o woman, 5'6 and right now I'm about 130lbs. I was about 115-120 for years and years before that. I'm guessing thats a bit too much fat and kind of concerned about gaining weight. I've never been this high of a weight before. Any insight? Thanks!

2 avocados a day or 2 handfuls of nuts doesn't seem too excessive to me. Do you exercise?

I've been watching Dr. Greger's videos and at this point I am convinced that low fat is better than moderate fat and that moderate is better than high. Dr. Rick Dina is also very good explaining fats. Greger is from the perspective of a whole-foods plant-based diet (vegan is usually implied, raw and cooked) and Dina is a raw vegan.

Dr. Dina
[www.youtube.com]

Just because they are raw does not mean they will not clog your arteries.

Monounsaturated (like avocado, olive) is not as atherogenic as saturated (coconut, animal products).

For polyunsaturated you need to keep the balance of omega6mega3 at 1:1 to 4:1 ideally.

So that basically means: lots of greens, lots of fruit, maybe a handful of walnuts and maybe a tbsp of ground flax or chia. The pickings are very slim.

But now and then you can do a bit of sesame, a bit of hazelnut, a bit of sunflower. Just not all that often. It messes up the balance.

This is ideally, IMHO.

Lowfat is very difficult for me. In practice I put a tsp of EVOO on my salads and add 2-3 walnuts.

Any other overt fats are just occasional treats. Maybe now and then I will have some other type of nut/seed in my fruit salad or an avocado.

Do what you can live with in the long term. But I think less is more!

"I've been watching Dr. Greger's videos and at this point I am convinced that low fat is better than moderate fat and that moderate is better than high."

There is zero scientific evidence that suggests that raw, plant-based fats are unhealthy. For all the studies Dr. Greger digs through and analyzes, he's still completely oblivious to the fact that cooked animal fats causing harmful effects has absolutely no relevance to raw, plant-based fats. There is no "one fits all" approach when it comes to fat intake.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2015 03:02AM by jtprindl.

I have to disagree. I will state my case but not press the issue.

Saturated fats are atherogenic whether cooked or raw. I agree the raw ones are not as bad as cooked but they can still clog.

Excess monounsaturated fat is also atherogenic, but not as atherogenic as saturated fats. Monkeys get clogged arteries on olive oil. We do, too, but not as soon as they do, and not as soon as with saturated fats.

Excess polyunsaturated fats are bad if you mess up your omega6mega3 ratio. Excess monounsaturated fats also contain omega6 and will mess up your ratio.

All of the studies that have shown improved blood flow through arteries and unblocking (not just improvements in lipids but more actual blood flow) have been not only low fat but also very low fat.

Just because it's raw it is not exempt. The keys here are the lengths of the carbon chains and the number of double bonds and these are present raw or cooked. Sure you will get even more messed up if they are cooked because they might get twisted and go trans which is the worst of all. But they do not need to be cooked to clog you up.

Dr. Dina has detailed videos in addition to the one that I posted. I hope you will have a look. Dr. Greger also has nice videos.

I don't even do low fat myself. I did it for 3 months straight in 1990 and by the end of my experiment I was ready to eat an entire package of Klondike bars in 2 seconds (which I did, well, it was more like 20 minutes). I felt too deprived.

I do moderate (20-25% kcals), this is where I can stay and live. But I believe that low (10% or lower as long as EFA needs are met) is the best if one can handle it.

"Saturated fats are atherogenic whether cooked or raw. I agree the raw ones are not as bad as cooked but they can still clog."

That's a myth and outdated information, saturated fats, especially raw (such as coconut) are not atherogenic and do not promote heart disease. Inflammation causes heart disease; cooked animal fats are highly inflammatory. By no means do I believe you can eat an unlimited amount of fat, but for healthy individuals it's nothing to be meticulous about, especially on a raw food diet rich in phytochemicals.


Meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies evaluating the association of saturated fat with cardiovascular disease - "During 5–23 y of follow-up of 347,747 subjects, 11,006 developed CHD or stroke. Intake of saturated fat was not associated with an increased risk of CHD, stroke, or CVD. The pooled relative risk estimates that compared extreme quantiles of saturated fat intake were 1.07 (95% CI: 0.96, 1.19; P = 0.22) for CHD, 0.81 (95% CI: 0.62, 1.05; P = 0.11) for stroke, and 1.00 (95% CI: 0.89, 1.11; P = 0.95) for CVD. Consideration of age, sex, and study quality did not change the results... A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD. More data are needed to elucidate whether CVD risks are likely to be influenced by the specific nutrients used to replace saturated fat". - [ajcn.nutrition.org]

Association of Dietary, Circulating, and Supplement Fatty Acids With Coronary Risk: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis - "There were 32 observational studies (512 420 participants) of fatty acids from dietary intake; 17 observational studies (25 721 participants) of fatty acid biomarkers; and 27 randomized, controlled trials (105 085 participants) of fatty acid supplementation. In observational studies, relative risks for coronary disease were 1.03 (95% CI, 0.98 to 1.07) for saturated, 1.00 (CI, 0.91 to 1.10) for monounsaturated, 0.87 (CI, 0.78 to 0.97) for long-chain ?-3 polyunsaturated, 0.98 (CI, 0.90 to 1.06) for ?-6 polyunsaturated, and 1.16 (CI, 1.06 to 1.27) for trans fatty acids when the top and bottom thirds of baseline dietary fatty acid intake were compared. Corresponding estimates for circulating fatty acids were 1.06 (CI, 0.86 to 1.30), 1.06 (CI, 0.97 to 1.17), 0.84 (CI, 0.63 to 1.11), 0.94 (CI, 0.84 to 1.06), and 1.05 (CI, 0.76 to 1.44), respectively. There was heterogeneity of the associations among individual circulating fatty acids and coronary disease. In randomized, controlled trials, relative risks for coronary disease were 0.97 (CI, 0.69 to 1.36) for a-linolenic, 0.94 (CI, 0.86 to 1.03)for long-chain ?-3 polyunsaturated, and 0.86 (CI, 0.69 to 1.07) for ?-6 polyunsaturated fatty acid supplementations... Current evidence does not clearly support cardiovascular guidelines that encourage high consumption of polyunsaturated fatty acids and low consumption of total saturated fats". - [annals.org]

Dietary intake of saturated fat by food source and incident cardiovascular disease: the Multi-Ethnic Study of Atherosclerosis - "Although dietary recommendations have focused on restricting saturated fat (SF) consumption to reduce cardiovascular disease (CVD) risk, evidence from prospective studies has not supported a strong link between total SF intake and CVD events... A higher intake of dairy SF was associated with LOWER CVD risk. In contrast, a higher intake of meat SF was associated with GREATER CVD risk. The substitution of 2% of energy from meat SF with energy from dairy SF was associated with a 25% lower CVD risk. No associations were observed plant or butter SF and CVD risk". - [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

"Excess polyunsaturated fats are bad if you mess up your omega6yawning smileymega3 ratio. Excess monounsaturated fats also contain omega6 and will mess up your ratio."

Yes, it's important to keep your omega fatty acids balanced, but that's a completely separate issue. You can have a well-balanced ratio if you stick to high omega-3 nuts and seeds (walnuts, chia, flax, hemp).


"Just because it's raw it is not exempt."

I always hear low-fat promoters state this as if it is fact yet there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim. In fact, there's evidence to the contrary (see below).


Cholesterol, coconuts, and diet on Polynesian atolls: a natural experiment: the Pukapuka and Tokelau island studies - "Two populations of Polynesians living on atolls near the equator provide an opportunity to investigate the relative effects of saturated fat and dietary cholesterol in determining serum cholesterol levels. The habitual diets of the toll dwellers from both Pukapuka and Tokelau are high in saturated fat but low in dietary cholesterol and sucrose. Coconut is the chief source of energy for both groups. Tokelauans obtain a much higher percentage of energy from coconut than the Pukapukans, 63% compared with 34%, so their intake of saturated fat is higher. The serum cholesterol levels are 35 to 40 mg higher in Tokelauans than in Pukapukans. These major differences in serum cholesterol levels are considered to be due to the higher saturated fat intake of the Tokelauans. Analysis of a variety of food samples, and human fat biopsies show a high lauric (12:0) and myristic (14:0) content. Vascular disease is uncommon in both populations and there is no evidence of the high saturated fat intake having a harmful effect in these populations". - [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Coconut fats - "Coconut fats account for 80% of the fat intake among Sri Lankans. Around 92% of these fats are saturated fats. This has lead to the belief that coconut fats are 'bad for health', particularly in relation to ischaemic heart disease. Yet most of the saturated fats in coconut are medium chain fatty acids whose properties and metabolism are different to those of animal origin. Medium chain fatty acids do not undergo degradation and re-esterification processes and are directly used in the body to produce energy. They are not as 'bad for health' as saturated fats. There is the need to clarify issues relating to intake of coconut fats and health, more particularly for populations that still depend on coconut fats for much of their fat intake. This paper describes the metabolism of coconut fats and its potential benefits, and attempts to highlight its benefits to remove certain misconceptions regarding its use". - [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Dietary intake and the risk of coronary heart disease among the coconut-consuming Minangkabau in West Sumatra, Indonesia - "Similar intakes of saturated and unsaturated fatty acids between the cases and controls indicated that the consumption of total fat or saturated fat, including that from coconut, was not a predictor for CHD in this food culture. However, the intakes of animal foods, total protein, dietary cholesterol and less plant derived carbohydrates were predictors of CHD". - [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - ""RESULTS: VCO obtained by wet process has a beneficial effect in lowering lipid components compared to CO. It reduced total cholesterol, triglycerides, phospholipids, LDL, and VLDL cholesterol levels and increased HDL cholesterol in serum and tissues. The PF of virgin coconut oil was also found to be capable of preventing in vitro LDL oxidation with reduced carbonyl formation."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "This study showed that VCO supplementation is capable of preventing elevation in blood pressure and also decreasing deactivation of nitric oxide in male rats fed with repeatedly heated palm oil. In addition, VCO does not influence relaxation but DECREASES vasoconstriction of the endothelium".



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2015 05:08AM by jtprindl.

Cowbird this is CoconutCream.

We only eat what our grand supreme leader, says we can. How many avocados a day is up to him. He is our raw grand food guru, he tells us to eat, and in what amounts and at what time of day. I suggest you ask him in the comments section of the youtube and he shall respond with the right answer!





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2015 05:06AM by coconutcream.

[nutritionfacts.org]
[nutritionfacts.org]
[nutritionfacts.org]

Use the meat now and then as a treat, fresh from the coconut. The oil is not a health food. It's just not as bad as butter.

"Use the meat now and then as a treat, fresh from the coconut. The oil is not a health food. It's just not as bad as butter."

Raw, extra-virgin coconut oil is a health food and has many benefits. Greger posting a video on processed, refined (and maybe cooked) coconut oil doesn't support his opinion. Did you not read any of the studies I posted?

The problem with many health minded individuals today is that many of them are uneducated and ignorant about health & nutrition and simply follow one or more people they view as "experts" and just regurgitate everything they say as if it's absolute truth without questioning or doing any research for themselves. This is a big reason why dogma exists (e.g. 'oils are bad' and 'you must be low-fat').



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2015 05:35AM by jtprindl.

Did you read them yourself? If so, since I don't have access to the full papers at the moment, please send them to me if you have them. If all you have is abstracts, that does not provide a good case.

Further research means reading the actual papers. See what they actually did, what they compared their substance to, who funded the studies.

It's not dogma or mindless parroting. There is an honest concern here.

But if all you have is abstracts, that is indeed a pretty mindless thing to provide.

In general it's a good idea to be skeptical about papers on specific processed foods. Even specific whole foods. Who funded the study? If it was the walnut board I am less convinced. PS I do eat walnuts.

"If all you have is abstracts, that does not provide a good case."

When results are repeated over and over again, and especially when the studies include large amounts of people, yes, they do provide a good case. If you don't think so, that's fine, I'm not going to try and change your mind.


"But if all you have is abstracts, that is indeed a pretty mindless thing to provide."

No, mindless would be regurgitating information you heard from someone you view as an expert and completely ignoring all evidence to the contrary. Secondly, the videos you just posted trying to make a point were videos of Dr. Greger reading abstracts. Confirmation bias and double-standards in one thread.

"In general it's a good idea to be skeptical about papers on specific processed foods."

Right, like on Greger's videos regarding highly processed coconut oil instead of raw, extra-virgin coconut oil.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2015 06:05AM by jtprindl.

There are many things one can do to offer great protection against high fat diets, but the low fat promotors never acknowledge these studies. Antioxidants/phytochemicals are our friend when it comes to fats, they offer great protection, especially something like broccoli or radish sprouts, very anti-atherogenic.

Good posts jtprindl.

www.thesproutarian.com

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've been watching Dr. Greger's videos and at this
> point I am convinced that low fat is better than
> moderate fat and that moderate is better than
> high. Dr. Rick Dina is also very good explaining
> fats. Greger is from the perspective of a
> whole-foods plant-based diet (vegan is usually
> implied, raw and cooked) and Dina is a raw vegan.
>
> Dr. Dina
> [www.youtube.com]
>
> Just because they are raw does not mean they will
> not clog your arteries.
>
> Monounsaturated (like avocado, olive) is not as
> atherogenic as saturated (coconut, animal
> products).
>
> For polyunsaturated you need to keep the balance
> of omega6mega3 at 1:1 to 4:1 ideally.
>
> So that basically means: lots of greens, lots of
> fruit, maybe a handful of walnuts and maybe a tbsp
> of ground flax or chia. The pickings are very
> slim.
>
> But now and then you can do a bit of sesame, a bit
> of hazelnut, a bit of sunflower. Just not all that
> often. It messes up the balance.
>
> This is ideally, IMHO.
>
> Lowfat is very difficult for me. In practice I put
> a tsp of EVOO on my salads and add 2-3 walnuts.
>
> Any other overt fats are just occasional treats.
> Maybe now and then I will have some other type of
> nut/seed in my fruit salad or an avocado.
>
> Do what you can live with in the long term. But I
> think less is more!



You might want to check out what board certified cardiologist Dr Stephen Sinatra has to say about fats and cholesterol. Here is a 4 minute video to get you started. It is an eye opener.

Dr. Sinatra Exposes the Great Cholesterol Myth
[www.youtube.com]

www.thesproutarian.com

Wow! This thread took off over night! I guess I will have to really do some research into the different kinds of fats, because it looks a lot more complicated than I initially thought. Also looks like it's a fairly 'debatable' subject too, and not as cut and dry as I thought it would be. Though, one food I cannot eat is coconuts. I am allergic to them and have been my whole life. The nuts I have been eating would be almonds, cashews, pecans and pistachios because I am not allergic to any of those. I am not allergic to walnuts either, I just do not frequently buy them. I eat 4 avocados a week, so I don't eat them daily (they come in a bag of 4 at the store).

I suppose, for my own knowledge and benefit, it would probably be good to research each individual type of nut I eat/can eat and the type of fats it contains then? A

Quote
Antioxidants/phytochemicals are our friend when it comes to fats, they offer great protection, especially something like broccoli or radish sprouts, very anti-atherogenic.

I am interested in sprouting, though I have not started yet. This has been a huge dietary change for me, so it's been taking me a while to start some of these things. So you are saying sprouts would in some way "counteract" bad fats that have been consumed or that they reduce your cravings for fats?

Humans must be different because in nature fat is not an issue, it is built in the food animal eat.
The cow get all of that from the grass

a recent new post by Dr Greger offers insights as to the strategy used by the fat promoters to cause confusion as method of defense.

[nutritionfacts.org]

It is a follow up to this other one:

[nutritionfacts.org]

In the comments of this last link, you can see how promoters of high fat (lot of fat is good and won't hurt you) usually relly on superficial quick interpretations but cannot respond adequately or present evidence other than personal emotional responses caused by the shock that their diets are being attacked. A similar scenario happened with paleo gurus that eventually looked lifeless even thougth they had "strong" science to back them up.

Just plug your food into fitday and try to get 15-20% calories from fat

Dr. Greger will make up anything to justify his long-standing beliefs regarding saturated fats because he's been promoting low-fat for so long that admitting that it's not nearly as damaging now would damage his reputation and he would lose many followers. He has a low-fat agenda and preaches to a low-fat crowd. There are more studies proving the same results other than the one's he mentioned, including one's done on populations who eat tons of coconut and have no heart disease. This whole "every study that disagrees with my beliefs is fixed and every study that agrees with my beliefs is legitimate" mentality needs to stop. Fats in general do not promote heart disease, cooked fats (particularly animal fats) and excessive amounts of omega-6's promote heart disease because they are both highly inflammatory, and inflammation is what causes heart disease.

Kiwibird Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The
> nuts I have been eating would be almonds, cashews,
> pecans and pistachios because I am not allergic to
> any of those. I am not allergic to walnuts either,


At the moment you would be consuming a very poor fat ratio because your infammatory omega 6's are far too high, so it is absolutely essential to rebalance that ratio and get much more omega 3 ALA into the diet if you wish to do this successfully long term. I can't stress this enough, because the studies showing the effects of too many omege 6's and too little omega 3's are devastating. I could post study after study but it would take all day, however l will post one major study in a moment on how we can use antioxidants as a major protector against high fat diets. It is not a death senstience like Esselstyn, Campbell, Gregor and others say it is.



> I am interested in sprouting, though I have not
> started yet. This has been a huge dietary change
> for me, so it's been taking me a while to start
> some of these things. So you are saying sprouts
> would in some way "counteract" bad fats that have
> been consumed or that they reduce your cravings
> for fats?


I am saying that sprouts is without doubt the finest way to help counteract the problem that higher fat diet pose. How do l know? Well, through reading hundreds of studies, this was the first study which gave clues to the world that we can stop the damaging effects of fat via oxidative stress which decreases flow mediated dilitation and activates factors 7(a) and 7(c). Ironically, it is the science of Vogel that Esselstyn uses to support his low fat arguments, yet Vogel was one of the first to show that this low fat thinking may not be a closed case like we all thought.


Please read this from "Current studies" and "related studies"

The postprandial effect of components of the mediterranean diet on endothelial function

Robert A Vogel, Mary C Corretti, MD et al
[content.onlinejacc.org]



The change in FMD correlated with the change serum in triglycerides, so the effect probably results from triglyceride-containing lipoproteins. The mechanism appears to be oxidative stress because the decrease in FMD was reduced (71%) by the concomitant administration of vitamins C and E. Balsamic vinegar (red wine product) and salad reduced the postprandial impairment in endothelial function to a similar extent (65%)


We have also reported that the impairment in endothelial function following a high–saturated-fat meal is reduced by the concomitant administration of vitamins C and E, suggesting an oxidative stress mechanism (15). Purple grape juice, rich in polyphenol antioxidants, has been shown to improve FMD in one of two reported studies (37-38)


Now, you may say that it is not proven to be oxidative stress factor, but l could post dozens of studies released since then to show that it is. But even in that study above we can see oxidative stress being greatly reduced by supplementing vitamins C and E, and do you think food high in vitamin A, C, and E and all it's phytochemicals would be better?...you bet your sweet boots it is. I am only introducing the basic idea that high antioxidant diets offer great protection, and the highest source IS sprouts, especially those powerful goitrogens in broccoli and radish sprouts.

Now, you may say where is all the proof of this, but l say, wait until l write my book because posting all the evidence here would take about 200 studies and about 20,000 words at least.

Broccoli sprouts is also a highly potent protector against AGE's which is oxidative stress and inflammatory based too.

All l am doing here is dropping basic clues.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2015 08:54PM by The Sproutarian Man.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dr. Greger will make up anything to justify his
> long-standing beliefs regarding saturated fats
> because he's been promoting low-fat for so long
> that admitting that it's not nearly as damaging
> now would damage his reputation and he would lose
> many followers. He has a low-fat agenda and
> preaches to a low-fat crowd. There are more
> studies proving the same results other than the
> one's he mentioned,


Yes, l pay Dr Gregor little attention as l do most of the raw promotors because they really have gone off on a tangent into lala land. Dr Gregor had a debate with the clever Chris Masterjohn on diet and the young Chris completely crushed him and called him out for not being able to read all the studies he was quoting correctly. Dr Gregor had no-where to go because Chris kept on pointing out all the flaws in his quoted research because Dr Gregor wasn't able to put thing properly in context. Dr Gregor's ideas on sprouts are highly unbalanced too.

Dr Gregor has great basic information, but there are a lot of things he is not aware of, so his ideas are very partial at best. Even his excellent video about a 40 year old vegan having a heart attack has many cringeworthy moments.


Btw, high long chain omega 3's also combat insulin resistance caused from saturated fat. Wow.

Fats are a very complex subject, and it takes a long time to understand the subject because so much reading must be done. To get an understanding you must read countless studies for and against high fat and low fat, and you try and see who funds the studies and the way they were set out. It is a tough subject, but one of my favourite subjects. If you read studies for 3 - 4 hours a day for about 7 - 8 months you will start to get up to speed with the subject, but most of the raw food leaders don't appear to have read much of anything regarding this subject because it shows.

And THEN there is the subject of the highly flawed low fat arguments and the strong suspicion mentioned in medical journals that much of their nonsense was highly influeneced by lobbying in food industries selling low fat foods and the drug companies selling fat/cholesterol lowing medication to nations of people on high fat/cholesterol diets....a money spinner!!!...and it sucked people in and it worked!!!

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2015 09:12PM by The Sproutarian Man.

Quote
Now, you may say where is all the proof of this, but l say, wait until l write my book because posting all the evidence here would take about 200 studies and about 20,000 words at least.

So until you write you book, are there any books you recommend to read for someone new to this and very, very confused by all the technical information? Especially a suggestion to start reading studies. I have no medical or chemistry background, much of the information in scientific studies would be so far beyond me I'm not sure I could ever catch up.

Quote
At the moment you would be consuming a very poor fat ratio because your infammatory omega 6's are far too high, so it is absolutely essential to rebalance that ratio and get much more omega 3 ALA into the diet if you wish to do this successfully long term. I can't stress this enough, because the studies showing the effects of too many omege 6's and too little omega 3's are devastating.

I do not want to damage my health more than I have already, which is why I'm seeking some guidelines of what to eat. For about the first 8 or so years I was a vegetarian, I ate a very poor diet and it caught up to me in the form of crohns disease. I improved my diet and the crowns went into remission, but after another 7 or so years, I developed a dairy allergy and felt run down all the time (which I can only guess was my diet catching up to me again). I know I could be eating healthier and thus is why I am trying to transition to raw veganism. It is really very confusing though. From what I am gathering on the subject of fats in my diet specifically I should be:

1. Research omega 3 and omega 6 fatty acid ratios
2. Research which foods I am consuming that contain these fats
3. Try to balance it to a healthy ratio
4. Research sprouting

Am I on the right track here? And thank you very much @sproutatarian man for the help and information thus far. I am not trying to be a pain, I am just trying to learn what is proving to be an extremely complex subject

Kiwibird Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Am I on the right track here? And thank you very
> much @sproutatarian man for the help and
> information thus far.


There are no really good books on fats that l know of that covers things in the way that is needed, that is why l am writing one. Writing a book is a pain in the neck, but the information needs to be put out there because there is much that never gets said on the diet world and the solutions to making high fat safe.


I would strongly suggest you read this thread on sprouting. It is a good warm up to what l will be writing on sprouts, and it will make you apreciate somewhat how powerful sprouts are, and it will leave you with little doubt that sprouting is the finest food. This is just intro stuff...various books will need to be written to cover the subject completely.
[www.thesproutarian.com]


Also read this thread on the fat/cholesterol controversy. This thread still needs lots of work and editing, but it basically covers important info. I also need to edit it to make it sound more vegan friendly.
[www.thesproutarian.com]


You might also want to read this crucial thread on omega 3:
[www.thesproutarian.com]


You may also want to read this thread:
[www.thesproutarian.com]


Being a perfectionist, none of these threads are to the level l need them to be at, but they provide an excellent insight you will not see online or in books. The perspectives in these threads are very unique and very VERY powerful.

When l write the books they will be landmark books. I am not writing a book for the heck of it, l am writing them to change the world, because these powerful ideas are not being talked about to the level they should be. I need to be able to explain the big picture and put all the pieces of the puzzle togeather on paper, but there are so many factors that it is a tough job to do because l don't do a good job at explaining things like they need to be. The work l do to promote sprouting and diet is NEVER to my satisfaction, so l need a really good editor to put the big wide picture to the public. The big picture is absolutely mind blowing, but trying to communicate the big picture is so difficult. Most stuff is still in my head...l have only stratched the surface....sooo frustrating.

Even when talking about antioxidants in the sproutarian diet, l haven't even touched on how important they really are. A big book could be written just on that subject alone. The power of anti oxidants blows my mind sky high, and sprouts are the highest source. Even more mind blowing is combining a high antioxidant program with anti inflammatory diet that far surpasses the usual raw vegan anti inflammatory diet...WOW, that is so exciting it keeps me awake at night. How do l get the info out of my head and on paper, it is so hard.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2015 10:51PM by The Sproutarian Man.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The postprandial effect of components of the
> mediterranean diet on endothelial function
>
> Robert A Vogel, Mary C Corretti, MD et al
> [content.onlinejacc.org]
> id=1126754
>



And here lies the big problem on the arguments against on high fat diets, it is all based on assumptions. See, the problem is that we see people on high fat diets getting heart attacks, and we see people on low fat diets becoming heart attack proof, so we assume that fat is the boogy man, but it is not as simple as people think...we make conclusions that 1 + 1 = 2, but in the case of fat it can't be stated so simply. Lots of things can be said to support what l say, but l will just quote something from the Vogel study above:


Although considerable data support an atherogenic role for endothelial dysfunction, the assumption that endothelial function predicts progression of atherosclerosis and/or cardiovascular event risk is supported only by preliminary data


Since then scientists have found that this preliminary data is not as conclusive as we used to think. And now a bunch of doctors have thrown the old outdated 80's science of low fat out the door, but people like Mc Dougal and Esselstyn still hold onto the old school thinking without looking at the broad picture.

Funny enough, the pro low fat paper above contradicts the ideas that high fat is definitely a death sentense, and it undoes much of what Dr Esselstyn says despite the fact that the doc always quotes Vogel to support his ideas, yet the doc cherry picks data and never mentions the most important parts of the study because it undoes his ideas.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2015 11:46PM by The Sproutarian Man.

Kiwibird wrote:
I've actually gained about 10 pounds since going raw. Guessing that has to do with all the fatty foods. Wondering what is an acceptable amount of fattier foods to eat? A handful a day? 2? Eat as much as I want? lol. I have been eating 3 or 4 handfuls of nuts/seeds a day or 2 avocados and a handful of nuts. I'm a 26 y/o woman, 5'6 and right now I'm about 130lbs. I was about 115-120 for years and years before that. I'm guessing thats a bit too much fat and kind of concerned about gaining weight. I've never been this high of a weight before. Any insight?


Kiwibird,

I am a woman, and I have gained weight in the past eating high fat, including those nuts you mentioned, plus a lot of avocados.

In my own mind, if I was craving nuts, seeds and avocados, as you say you are, I would wonder if I am not just craving protein and trying to access it from those foods, because the result is that you are gaining weight and you don't need that excess weight, right?

So I personally would try raw vegan protein powder. To be honest, I don't like the taste of any of it, but around my period, I force myself to make hemp protein (nutiva brand 15g) smoothies for the iron and extra protein. When I make protein smoothies, whether hemp protein or brazil nut protein, and the other gamut, I feel full and have zero cravings. THe problem with me feeling full is that I usually have a lot of produce that I have around and it would go to waste, if I wasn't hungry and wouldn't eat it. So that is why I don't use protein powder daily. See how much nuts you crave after taking in some protein powder. Just my tip.

I don't take a stand on a high or low fat diet, because everyone is unique. BUT, when you are trying to lose weight, I think it's much easier to avoid excess fat to lose weight the fastest. I lost weight quickly by avoiding all nuts and oil, even one tablespoon of olive oil (over a few week period). I came to that conclusion because I noticed I lost weight slower when I included fat in my diet, even if I didn't exceed my calorie needs. But I am not making a blanket statement for everyone. You just have to test it out yourself

Once you have reached your ideal weight, you could use more fat, as long as you don't exceed your calorie needs, otherwise, you would gain weight, right? Some people on this forum eat 60% fat, from what I read, and it seems like they don't gain weight, as long as they don't overeat.

My last tip is to look into eating more seeds (like sprouted sesame) than nuts. THey give you more nutrition with less calories than nuts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2015 01:41AM by Tai.

Tai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> In my own mind, if I was craving nuts, seeds and
> avocados, as you say you are, I would wonder if I
> am not just craving protein and trying to access
> it from those foods, because the result is that
> you are gaining weight and you don't need that
> excess weight, right?

I agree with Tai's concern. One food group often missing from a raw vegan diet is legumes (as in beans, peas, lentils, tofu, etc.). In a cooked vegan diet, legumes are plentiful and supply an ample quantity of protein without adding more fat than you need.

Raw vegans are able to consume sprouted legumes. My personal favorite is the "French green lentils" from the bin at my local health food store. I love them added to salads or nori rolls (with lots of greens, lemon juice, some avocado, etc.) or sometimes just with chopped celery, minced garlic, lemon juice, and some hempseed. As I recall though, I don't think I liked them at first. Now when I'm hungry, I crave them!

Legumes are a good source of lysine, an essential amino acid often lacking in many nuts and seeds.

However, nuts and seeds are also important protein sources. For example, chia and hemp are complete proteins, and chia has the added benefit of being an excellent source of omega-3. In addition, nuts, seeds, and avocado help to supply many other essential nutrients as well (for example: zinc, iron, magnesium, and vitamin E).

In my experience, raw vegan whole food fats are beneficial. However, a person (me) can sometimes have too much. Including a variety of sprouts - especially legumes - can be helpful.

Tai also wrote:

> > My last tip is to look into eating more seeds
> (like sprouted sesame) than nuts. THey give you
> more nutrition with less calories than nuts.

Plus, seeds are generally less expensive!

Legumes are gas producing, not good for humans.

Thanks everyone. I will definitely be looking more into sprouted foods and have plenty of mason jars I can use to sprout in. Not a lot of the you tub "raw vegans" I've been watching have put all that much emphasis on them. I will also be drastically cutting back on the nuts, but will keep my avocados.

@sproutarianman- I am reading over your website. Seems like there are some interesting articles. Sometimes it takes me re-reading something a couple times to fully grasp a new concept though, so it'll take me a while to get through all the posts.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> For example, chia and hemp are complete
> proteins...

Possible correction (thanks to an alert from Panchito!). Hemp seed may lack sufficient lysine for a "complete protein".

There appear to be differing opinions, and the USDA data on the amino acid profile of Hemp Seed is not complete.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2015 08:56PM by suncloud.

"Dr Gregor had a debate with the clever Chris Masterjohn on diet and the young Chris completely crushed him and called him out for not being able to read all the studies he was quoting correctly. Dr Gregor had no-where to go because Chris kept on pointing out all the flaws in his quoted research because Dr Gregor wasn't able to put thing properly in context."

Do you have video or audio of this? I think you may have sent me this before but I couldn't access it.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Do you have video or audio of this? I think you
> may have sent me this before but I couldn't access
> it.


The only way to access it is to enter into a contract with the satelitte company for a free 30 day trial and then cancel before the end of the period so you don't have to pay. All it is, is a way for the company to market to you and gather information. Lots of messing around to get access to the interview.

[blog.cholesterol-and-health.com]



Some comments people made about the debate (see below). The point is...if we wish to be taken seriously we need to get our ideas solid and do proper research and stop appealing on just emotion, because if we don't these meat eating types with Ph D's with good research skills will tear us apart and put question over what we do. We really need to do our homework the hard way, stop thinking websites know it all, and start putting pieces of the puzzle togeather over a period of years. We need to be able to verify every single thing mentioned in books and websites and put it all togeather properly before we go spouting much of the stuff we do.



I respect your rebuttal of his presentation of his so called "irrefutable diet studies". You are measured in your response, showed a knowledge base for the studies in question, and respectfully pointed out the shortcomings in study design - he could not refute your observations, and had to appeal to emotion "getting rid of the biggest killer....." type of verbiage


and


You handled that like a pro. Very clear, well formed arguments. You definitely came across as the better researched debater, and I learned some great stuff by listening. Thank you!

I remember finding Dr Greger's site a while ago and at first I thought it was interesting and I learned a few things, but I quickly disregarded it when I heard him blatantly misrepresenting (or misunderstanding) some research on his little Youtube videos. So I got a little pleasure from listening to you run knowledge circles around him.


The raw community do a poor job at selling veganism because many of us are thought of gullible people buying into false science and emotion and we are seem as idealist dreamers. That needs to change, but we need to know what we are saying, therefore look at all arguments for and against without blinkered thinking.

www.thesproutarian.com