FYI


[agris.fao.org]


Consequences of a long-term raw food diet on body weight and menstruation: results of a questionnaire survey [1999]

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Koebnick, C.
Strassner, C.
Hoffmann, I.
Leitzmann, C.

Abstract:

Objective: To examine the relationship between the strictness of long-term raw food diets and body weight loss, underweight and amenorrhea.

Methods: In a cross-sectional study 216 men and 297 women consuming long-term raw food diets (3.7 years; SE 0.25) of different intensities completed a specially developed questionnaire.

Participants were divided into 5 groups according to the amount of raw food in their diet (70-79, 80-89, 90-94, 95-99 and 100%).

A multiple linear regression model (n = 513) was used to evaluate the relationship between body weight and the amount of raw food consumed. Odds of underweight were determined by a multinomial logit model.

Results: From the beginning of the dietary regimen an average weight loss of 9.9 kg (SE 0.4) for men and 12 kg (SE 0.6) for women was observed. Body mass index (BMI) was below the normal weight range (< 18.5 kg/m(2)) in 14.7% of male and 25.0% of female subjects and was negatively related to the amount of raw food consumed and the duration of the raw food diet.

About 30% of the women under 45 years of age had partial to complete amenorrhea; subjects eating high amounts of raw food (> 90%) were affected more frequently than moderate raw food dieters.

Conclusions: The consumption of a raw food diet is associated with a high loss of body weight. Since many raw food dieters exhibited underweight and amenorrhea, a very strict raw food diet cannot be recommended on a long-term basis.

<<<About 30% of the women under 45 years of age had partial to complete amenorrhea>>>

Most people do not understand that hemorrhaging is not healthy and there is a difference between ovulating and menstruating. Just because most women bleed does not mean they are supposed to.

In other words, it is possible to ovulate and not to menstruate.

Interestingly, most women who do stop bleeding do so because they are unhealthy and are not ovulating because their body fat % has dropped below 12%. This is where most people are confused.

Once again, it is possible to ovulate and not to menstruate or hemorrhage.

Here is my File Preview for my file on Menstruation:

...File Preview...
• Sit down before fact like a little child, and be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abyss nature leads, or you shall learn nothing.
• It is not uncommon for women to go through some changes in cycles when they change their diets.
• In medical school I was taught that a woman should not bleed at all, it was abnormal.
• Regarding menstrual pain, I have always been told by my women patients that they have reduced menstrual pain, duration, and bleeding as they improve their diet to vegan and again raw. For some women, all of these symptoms disappear completely.
• Menstruation as we know it IS common, so common it is "the norm", and in that sense alone "normal". But it certainly is not healthy - or necessary.
• Once I went all raw, my first period was normal, but my second was only one drop. This is what I call normal. The rest of the world is abnormal to me. We are always comparing ourselves to cooked fooders.
• No bleeding and not ovulating are two completely different things. ...Normal healthy menstrual cycles, according to my anatomy teacher in medical school, should not be accompanied by bleeding of any kind. In fact, the entire 'period' should only take a few minutes and would be, basically, just a small bit of mucus.
• Cessation of bleeding should not automatically be considered a bad thing, most women find it a blessing. Of course, it has to come about for healthy and not unhealthy reasons.
• The casual observer may have no idea whether or not bleeding is occuring - you tend only see the outward signs. In many species the flow is "covert" as all the necrotic tissue is reabsorbed. I think humans do this to a small extent, so even though there may be no overt loss of blood, there still may be a period, but just much less.
• I can agree with a lot of this, not that I've ever missed a period. But I have noticed that the more things I do right, the lighter my periods are. When I've absolutely gone nuts with cheesecake, all kinds of fried things, overeating, etc., my period has been horrendous. It can fluctuate like this by the month according what I've done.
• I once had endometriosis and now I don’t. So, my period hasn't gone away, but it is now not the "curse" people say it is/should be. I have no pain, brest swelling, pms, or any symptoms at all except 3 days of a minute amount of blood loss. I USED to have pain all month long - random cramps, during my period cramps up to my lung area, breast swelling three weeks prior to my period (out of a 4 week cycle!) constant brain fog, and severe pain that left me unable to work 3 days every month, and a period that lasted anywhere from 7-11 days. The blood was thick, mucusy, clotty, even solid in chunks at times.
• However, it is true that they have studied the difference between menstrual blood and regular blood from our viens and found them to be Very different from each other! The menstrual blood was loaded with waste and toxins unlike blood found elsewhere in our body.
• In fact ask almost any doctor and they will tell you that woman can still ovulate when they miss there period.
• The fact that the whole ovulation cycle can occur time after time without the loss of blood, and can and does this in so many cases, especially in women and whole tribes and races living 'less civilized', more natural lives, should cause us to doubt that menstruation is either necessary or normal. The fact that it is in the healthiest and strongest women that there is no loss of blood and that the loss of blood increases in proportion to the decline in physical vigor, should cause us to conclude that this, like all other losses of blood, is abnormal.
• I also don't think that we need a signifier like blood to connect ourselves with our cycle, or with our bodies.
• The cycle is not just the blood, although that's what most women in our culture focus on. ...The cycle is the moment of emptiness once the period has ceased... the first stirrings of desire and increased vaginal secretions that indicate ovulation is near... the drying up of desire, and the movement (at least for me) into a more extraverted frame of being until... the body begins to turn inward, insulating itself (fat stores on belly, breasts and thighs) and creating a fierce force... that is eventually un-leashed and let go... I'm probably saying this all wrong. But I was aware of none of this--except for the blood--until I began to pay attention.
• The Sabbath of Women By Lara Owen ...I had actually felt cheated because my periods were so light. That was when I realized that for me, menstruating was an important part of my life, a rhythm that I depended on for my psychic and physical health, and that I ignored or suppressed at my peril. In other cultures, rather than being ignored, menstruation has been seen as a time that is special and sacred for women. ...When white men came on the scene, “the world turned upside down.” Attitudes toward menstruation changed and young girls were taught by the priests instead of by the elder women of the tribe. “Instead of learning that once a month their bodies would become sacred, they were taught that they would become filth. Instead of going to the waiting house to meditate, pray, and celebrate…they were taught that they were sick” (“Daughters of Copper Woman”, Ann Cameron). ...In the nineteenth century, menstruation was viewed by physicians as one more sign of the inferiority and weakness of the female.
• I spoke to a woman who went completely raw a year before pregnancy, and delivered the baby completely pain-free, without drugs, and without cessarian, in--if I recall--about 20 minutes.
• I am a man but please, there must be a limit to this 'you can't understand' stuff. There are reasons not to ovulate - various conditions all linked to extremely poor health or extremely low body fat - and then there are reasons not to menstruate, usually these are linked with excellent health.
• Some women lose their period due to poor health, while others lose it due to excellant health...
• It's strange that our instinct is to curl up in pain. This does menstrual pain no good. All the yoga exercises make you open up. Working against instinct is weird, but after doing it once, I totally trust it now. I realise that we shouldn't have period pains so the instinct we use to curl up isn't right -- our bodies weren't designed to have period pain, otherwise we'd instinctively open up into a yoga pose!
• Lack of menstruation does not preclude ovulation. Lack of ovulation due to extremely low body fat has been linked to health issues, especially hormonal problems and osteoporosis, IN NON-ATHLETIC WOMEN ONLY! Many world class female athletes do not menstruate, a sign of health, yet still ovulate.
• We have actually had this menstruation discussion, ad nauseum, some time ago. The brief recap is this: In medical school I was taught by my anatomy teacher, a woman btw, that menstruation is, by definition, uncontrollable hemorrhage. If you hemorrhage, from anywhere, it is not a good thing, and I don't really care if everyone else hemorrhages too. She said that a normal healthy 'period' would last about 20 minutes and would be just what you said, a shedding of a mucus lining. She said a small volume of mucus would come out of the vagina, usually unnoticed by the woman, and that it could be accompanied by one drop of blood, but not necessarily. Since that time I have heard this same story many times, in many places. My understanding is that the body hemorrhages as a prelude to ovulation, to create new clean red blood cells and clean up the blood in general.
• My 100% raw 19-year-old daughter does not get "periods" since she went raw, but will get a very slight spotting if she eats nuts and seeds. She has been 100% raw for 17 months, is healthy, feels and looks great. A woman can stop her periods for either unhealthy reasons or healthy reasons. I know that some people believe it is only for unhealthy reasons.
• Other animals who eat natural food have little, if any bleeding.
• Many raw foodist women don't bleed - but they do have a mucousy discharge that indicates that they are still ovulating.
• Most women, especially those who have been formerly mis-educated and/or have not followed a 100% raw food diet for very long, have a very hard time with this concept. Most women do not know that there is more than one reason why one's menstrual cycle stops. When a woman's body fat % drops below 10-12%, then they will stop ovulating and not have any discharge. This is not healthy! However, it is NOT healthy to hemorrhage from anywhere!!!
• Even after a year on raw food, my body is still very busy cleansing itself of 30 years of toxic eating. I feel fortunate that I'm a woman in this respect because I can see such progress each month. I also think it's lucky for us to have this extra valve to allow toxins out of! Some months have been great, with little pain and little blood, but others have been quite painful. However, for about the last 5 months the pain has been nothing like it used to be. It used to be that I couldn't move for days, with pain raging through my fingers and toes. I haven't felt like that for a long time now, which I'm so pleased about. My periods aren't perfect yet, but that's because I'm not! Hard to believe, eh! As I write this I'm approaching my first period of 2001, I'll document it as I have documented last year's, so stay tuned...
• Also, remember that if you don't have peroids it doesn't necessarily mean you are healthy. However, if you do have periods, it does mean you are toxic. Fact ;-) No other animal (except cooked "pets" haemorrhage like humans in this way.
• Women in the raw food movement often notice that their periods become less painful, shorter, that they suffer less pms symptoms, etc. Some even notice a cessation of menstruation, though this is not always (or even usually imo) accompanied by a cessation of ovulation. Those women in the raw food movement who are exceptionally thin (less than 10% body fat and going lower) may in fact be too thin for their own hormonal health.
• You detox more around your period, so what's coming out? The chocolate you ate last month, and the month before!
• Lots of women quit having their periods when they are on the living food diet and the good news is that you don't run into menopause. I'm 65 and never had 'that' and lots of people who are younger never have their periods anymore because there is nothing left over to get rid of.
• I've lost my menses since going raw. Yeah!!! The curse is over! I'm not under weight nor over excersising. I did backslide majorly one time and did menstruate that month.
• Some raw women lose their periods because they get too thin, but some lose it and are still ovulating...which is fine. To lose your period due to being unhealthily thin or over exercising is NOT a good thing.
• What did it for me was cutting right back on nuts and seeds. I now only have a really minimal amount. I also rarely eat dried fruit, so most of my diet is very high in water. My body seems to like this. After one final *horrible* painful period 4 months ago, I have (for the first time in my life) now had 3 (yes, 3) pain-free periods in a row! My first pain free period was after 6 months raw, but the next one was painful. I had this pattern for the next 18 months or so, up until now ;-)
• For me, just going 99% raw and eating whatever I wanted and in any combination totally helped my cramps. When I eat mostly raw, I have much lighter periods and NO cramps (no more Advil and Aleve for me). It's absolutely wonderful. Of course, if I go back to eating the regular SAD, my periods are heavy and the cramps come back. This alone is enough reason to go raw!
• I was beginning menopause when I started on the diet. I would skip a period, hot flashes, night sweats, ets, two or three times a year ( age 40). When I began the diet, menstruation became more regular with less signs of menopause. My periods became less painful, and then they became lighter. I had a few periods which were only clear fluid, and some that were scanty brown.
• The real solution for menstrual problems is to remove the toxemic condition through a series of cleansing periods, gradually extending from days to weeks on a mainly raw food diet based on fresh vegetable juices, sprouted seeds, vegetable salads and fresh fruit, preferably using organic or unsprayed produce.
• Menstruation is about cleansing and detoxifying. If one eats a light vegan diet (fruits and a few greens leafs..hardly any nuts and seeds) and does not overeat, it may stop altogether. Also hot spices and garlic and peppers induces one period as they tend to irritate the body. I stayed away from the above and my period stopped. If I want to have it I can get it back in a few days by eating lots of nuts/red pepper/overloading my system. But that does not make me feel good so I don’t. I never feel any mood swings or have any PMS symptoms and feel on top of the world every day. I have had this experience also when I was eating a very lite vegan diet that was not 100 percent raw but may be 70 percent. Have been virtually period free now for a couple of years being declared healthy by standard Western and Alternative medical check ups.
• Been 100% for five months, and I haven't bled for the past few months, and before that it was very light spotting.
• I also have had no period for about 4 months, the time I went 100% raw! I still know when I'm ovulating though by the usual discharge so I'm not bothered about it.
• The very first time I went 100% raw I lost my period completely after only three months into it. I find that the blood flow is less when I eat less protein foods and am more on a fruitarian type diet. My cramps and moodiness are non-existent on a raw foods diet.
• When the average unhealthy or underweight woman develops amenhorea, she stops ovulating, which is not healthy. This may be the case for many women who go raw, because they lose an excessive amount of weight or are undereating. However, it is healthy and natural to stop bleeding with menstruation, as long as you are still ovulating. You know you're ovulating if you get a monthly discharge and maybe a little bit of spotting.
• I had amenhorea before I went raw from being underweight. After being raw for awhile I began to ovulate again, while still being underweight though not as severely.
• It is a great idea to be juice fasting during this time. Most of the thousands of people that I have coached were women and most of them tell me that they didn't even know that there period was coming because they usually have all of those painful warning signs days before. Many times they tell me that this was their first pain-free period that they have ever had. Boy do I love my job!!!
• I stopped getting my period after about four months of 70% raw. I went 100% raw on July 17th, and I still have not had one since. I was not underweight at the time I lost it, and nor am I underweight now. I was and am in excellent health.
• However, the evidence strongly suggests that menstrual bleeding is unhealthy and that ovulation without bleeding is what is the natural, healthy state.
• So why haven't most of us heard about this before? It is because the lifestyle improvements involved, although simple, are quite a change from most modern women's habits of living and eating. No drugs or even nutritional supplements are required, but what is essential is the adoption of what health writer Leslie Kenton calls a "high raw way of eating". In practice this means that each meal contains more fresh, raw foods than cooked or processed foods; that animal product foods are eliminated altogether, along with salt, sugar, alcohol, refined fats and oils, most condiments, artificial additives and stimulating beverages. Many people say that they "would rather die than give up all that tasty stuff!" And indeed they will -- after living years in increasingly poorer health, through menstruation and menopausal "symptoms", and often ending with heart disease and cancer.
• Haemorrhage in the uterus is no more normal than is haemorrhage in the brain or lungs.
• It is now agreed by most observers that the cause of menstruation among domestic animals is the food they receive at the hands of man.
• What is not natural however is to experience menstrual bleeding - and this can be eliminated by changing the diet to end the congestion of toxemia and ensure an abundant supply of the nutrients necessary for maintaining strong blood vessels.
• What has to change in the diet in order to eliminate menstruation? Foods which contribute to toxemia are no longer eaten. Foods which build health, and especially strong connective tissue, without taxing the digestion are the only foods eaten. The body is helped to eliminate toxic wastes built up over past years of poor lifestyle and diet. Without doubt, the hardest part of this change for most people is the first one. It means no more eating foods which sludge up or acidify the body. This means eliminating animal products - meat, fish, dairy, eggs -- refined sugars and salt, and dramatically reducing grain foods and even processed plant fats (oils). The diet essentially must become "true vegetarian", or vegan, with a predominance of fresh raw fruits and vegetables rather than cooked. In particular, the greater the proportion of raw fruit in the diet, the less likely you are to have periods.
• Women who eat a vegetarian diet containing mostly raw food experience only brief periods, scarcely noticeable, with hardly any loss of blood. Dr. H. G. Beiler in his book, The Natural Way to Sexual Health, explains that women experience troublesome periods only because of the toxic condition of their blood brought about by the high fat and protein Western diet.
• The fact that the whole ovulation cycle can occur time after time without the loss of blood, and can and does this in so many cases, especially in women and whole tribes and races living 'less civilized', more natural lives, should cause us to doubt that menstruation is either necessary or normal. The fact that it is in the healthiest and strongest women that there is no loss of blood and that the loss of blood increases in proportion to the decline in physical vigor, should cause us to conclude that this, like all other losses of blood, is abnormal.
• ...when I am off my diet and then get back on it, I will bleed heavier as I get rid of those toxins. But when I stick to my diet, then my bleeding is relatively light.
• I still have mine and am 5'10" and 133 pounds. I have noticed that months when I am completely 100% raw it is very scant and short.
• When you are clean, your body doesn't stop preparing the lining of your uterus, but instead of expelling it every month, your body reabsorbs it. It's full of nutrients.. and your body will only want to get rid of it if its full of toxins.
• I have been 100% raw for 2 years. I have a clear discharge once a month, but have not bled for over 9 months. I am not underweight, nor highly athletic, 5'5 125lbs, body fat of 18%.
• I was 80-90% raw for one year and have been 100%for a month and I have noticed that my period went from being clumpy and darker brown (ewwww!) to bright bright red which only lasts for two and a half days. I knew about the pruifying aspect and it makes sense that once we are clean we would just reabsorb it....makes sense.
• Why do women menstruate - and what's "normal" about it? During the days before a woman ovulates, the lining of the womb - the endometrium - thickens in preparation for a possible conception. If the egg released at ovulation passes through the womb unfertilized, the thickened endometrial tissues are not needed - and in a truly healthy woman, as in animals in their wild state, those tissues are mostly reabsorbed. What remains is expelled over a short period of time as a slight mucus discharge.
• My experience has been consistent with that described in John Rose's literature. I do not bleed, but sometimes have a lot of mucus. The only times I bleed is when I ate something bad, usually while traveling and better foods are not available. My body fat has ranged 23-26%, so I am definitely not underweight. I have researched this extensively, and it is actually quite common for raw foodies not to bleed.
• I've hardly had a period since going raw last year and I have been to the doctor's about it. She wasn't at all concerned. No period does NOT mean that you are not ovulating. We are not all created the same, therefore, different people have different types of periods. It is not totally unnatural to not have a period. Please try to be more understanding and don't scare people with such a strongly worded post.
• Coco- I know where you are coming from. When I first heard that raw foodist often don't bleed I was heart broken. I rediscovered my sexuality through honoring my moon cycles and have turned those cramps into waves of orgasms. I have however seen such a change in my menses since I have progressively eaten healthier over the last few years. I now only lightly bleed for a day and a half and maybe spot for another day. ...We can honor our cycles without the blood. Their are our dreams, and our fluids, and the moon and our cycle. Even if there isn’t blood doesn’t mean we aren't flowing.
• At the present time there is not enough research in this matter. I met healthy women practicing a raw food diet both menstruating and not. The only thing that all women say is that the blood flow essentially decreased. They practically don't have any discomfort, cramps, or PMS symptoms.
• I know that I am a man and I know that I cannot speak from experience, which is why I have this file...I am also a Wellness Consultant and since I do this for a living, I have to be objective and listen to what you women have to say on this subject...thanks again to all of you women for sharing your views.
• I saw a huge improvement in my cycle after going raw. As a vegetarian for 7 years, I STILL had intense pain in my uterus and tons of leg pain on the 2nd day of my period. I was also heavy on that day. On raw, I have no uterine or leg pain at all, and my period lasts 3 days.
• After several days raw my period came and I had little to no pain. ...THEN after being raw for 5 weeks I started a week early (unusual), but this time my period lasted for ONE EVENING and that was IT! A few clumps, no pain at all. Since then only spotting.
• The amount of fluids in the body can change very quickly. Our emotions are strongly linked to the balance of fluids in our bodies and thus can also change very quickly. In fact, changes of emotion are frequently related to changes in the water balance.
• The science behind water retention is basically that water is the solution to pollution. Your body decides how dilute various toxins must be kept at the different times of the month. I did not say, "You become more toxic before your period." This may be true, but having no history of you to go on, it is out of my scope to be able to tell. It is just as likely that your body determines that at this important time of the month your toxins must become more dilute, so the body retains a bit more water to do the job.
• I have been raw off and on for two years then decided to behave and go total raw about 3 months ago. Well my cycle became very light to almost nonexsistant.
• This is one of the most dramatic effects that going raw had on me. Much lighter and almost no cramps.
• ...eating raw produces less garbage in the system, therefore less garbage to dispose of.
• The bowels, bladder, lungs and skin are the primary channels for elimination of toxins. The uterus is used as a vicarious (or alternative) method of elimination. So, if we are very toxic, the uterus is used as well as the other channels.
• No pains, no cramps... no nothing. Just a light, clean flow. It was a little heavy for half a day, and then trailed off to nothing in about four days.
• I've had nothing for over a year now. Oh, it's bliss (-: Another annoying thing out of my life.
• When I first went raw, I lost weight and my period stopped completely. It turned out I didn't have enough body fat to maintain the right hormone levels, so I had stopped ovulating (very unhealthy). Now that I gained some weight back, my period is light, short, and I never get cramps or anything. Very pleasant
• Mine only lasts under two days and I have no PMS symptoms. I am 24.
• Yes, this is normal and ok. You don't have so many old poisons left in your body as before, and if you completely quit your menses, what a blessing. It happened to me. This will not bother you if you wish to have a baby. The natural hormones will be there at the perfect time.
• I have been completely raw since 1/1/2005, and in 2004 was mostly raw. Since going completely raw, my period is so light I don't even need to use a tampon. It's weird. I have no PMS, except for maybe some tiredness and spaceyness. Maybe some slight pain. A few years ago I was diagnoses with really bad endometriosis, and that is what really started me on this new health path that has lead me to being raw. They wanted to give me a complete hysterectomy and put me on hormones for the rest of my life. Drs are really not very creative. So, I found a good herbalist (and have become one myself) and 'cured' myself of the pain of endometriosis. I am also prone to ovarian cysts, and also control that completely with herbs. I could be getting near menopause, and have had what might be some symptoms: extreme mood swings and some fitfull nights, but that also seems to be getting better with the raw food. I am determined this time to stay 100% raw. (I just wish they wouldn't play pizza commercials on the boob tube!) I am 45.
• I did not have a period before going raw that was not drug induced via synthetic hormones. I had polycystic ovarian syndrome and so it was not an indication of health that I was not having a period. Once raw, the first month I started having a regular period with no drugs. My period was quite heavy at first lasting up to four day with lots of blood and clots but not painful. Now after about 4 years it is hardly noticable. Now it lasts about 2 days, one or two tiny clots or none at all, very light flow.
• I'm 35 years old and I've been raw 22 months now (in varying degrees from mainly 100% to sometimes about 80%). Since about 4 months of being raw I haven't had a noticeable period. I always used to have quite a light flow anyway, so maybe that has something to do with it? Also, I don't suffer from PMS any more, which I used to get quite bad. My general health is pretty much perfect, so I'm not concerned that anything is 'amiss'. Obviously I can't speak for anyone else, but that's my experience, and I'm very happy with it! I just look at it as another of the lovely advantages of being raw. I found a little box under the bed the other day - it contained a bunch of tampons, together with my old asthma inhalor, and some random pills - for headaches, indigestion etc. All the stuff I used to regard as part of everyday life. I regard the raw life as one of the most liberating things that's ever happened to me, in many ways.
•
• My experiences echo those of many other women who have improved their diets. Although my periods actually got worse (pain) for about 2 years after I went raw, they finally got very light and now are absent completely. About a year ago when they first disappeared I monitored my temp for a couple months and charted the normal spikes on days 12-14 of my cycle, so indications are that I'm still ovulating. I've also had no symptoms of menopause.
•
• I also stopped mensturating after being raw for about six months. I was worried about it, and I went to the doctor and had hormone tests, ultrasounds and others. The results of those tests were normal. I only have a period now if I go off my raw diet and eat dairy products. Over the week-end, I went to a party that had deviled eggs and lots of cheese cubes. Even though I don't want to eat dairy for ethical and health reasons, I sometimes find it hard to resist if it's right there in front of me. The next day I started a period, and it last a day. Although the bleeding stopped, I'm still having very painful cramps.
•
...End of File Preview...

@ John Rose-

What you've posted is very interesting and I've heard this theory about bleeding monthly not being healthy several times now. I have also noticed my periods getting a lot lighter with no cramping since I began transitioning to raw vegan 6 months ago. I have actually gained weight since going raw, and am not over or under weight. I'm at about 80-90% raw right now and working towards 100%. Curious as I continue on in my raw journey, would it be wise to begin tracking with the BBT method to be sure I am ovulating? Another (perhaps stupid) question is how does a woman who does not get a monthly period know if she gets pregnant? When she starts showing? When the baby starts moving? I'm 25 and while my husband and I are not ready for kids quite yet, in the next few years we do want to start trying. Of course, theres always a chance I could be and knowing ASAP would certainly be helpful if that happened. Any ideas?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2015 10:17PM by Kiwibird.