Hi everyone

Just been experimenting with Spirulina recently. Heard all these great things about it - how it was so easily digestable and all that. It doesn't appear to be for me. It goes straight through me and I have green poo!

Does anyone have any suggestions? Any internet searches I do just say how wonderful it it.

Most sites are trying to sell you something. As such they will shamelessly put all kinds of gibberish on their sites to persuade you. All that matters to the sellers is to take some $$ out of your pocket and put it into theirs.

You can be perfectly healthy without it. In fact, you might be better off without it, because it contains B12 analogues which interfere with B12 status, which will accelerate depletion of your body's B12 stores and eventually lead to frank deficiency--unless you intervene appropriately.

Eating fresh organic lettuces and celery will be much more healthful than spiralina. Eating lots of tender sweet greens will provide necessary vitamins and minerals, as well as soluble fiber, which is necessary for healthy elimination.

Mangogirl,
I had an interesting experience with spirulina. I had tried it years ago, and just stopped. Then at some point I got a craving for it. At the time I had an overuse syndrome in my hands, which was just so painful at night it woke me up and kept me up for hours. In anycase, after I got the spirulina and ate it, my hand changed a sort of purple-pink color. It kind of freaked me out. It was like that for several hours. The next day, the pain in my hand was gone, and it hasn't come back. Spirulina is supposed to have some pretty unique pigments, I am certain that one of them has that purplish pink color. Its probably available in other foods, plants etc...but everything I have read on this topic seems to indicate that some of these pigments are difficult to find in other things.

I certainly wish I had some investments in an algae producing company, as I am giving lip service, but I honestly don't. You may not experience anything like that, but I had a very particular craving for spirulina. So perhaps instinctively I knew that there was something it it that I needed.

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can be perfectly healthy without it. In fact,
> you might be better off without it, because it
> contains B12 analogues which interfere with B12
> status, which will accelerate depletion of your
> body's B12 stores and eventually lead to frank
> deficiency--unless you intervene appropriately.

That's definatly a good reason not to eat spirulina every day, or even regularly, but I do think it has benefits, I have some maybe once a week.

Rob

--
Rob Hull - Funky Raw
My blog: [www.rawrob.com]

Rob, I don't think you in particular need to worry about it, IIRC you do have a reliable real B12 source (insects?). I don't have moral or ethical objections to eating insects but I am too squeamish to do it myself. I don't consider shrimp to be that different, taxonomically, but the shrimp industry does pose a much greater environmental impact.

How does one tell if a product/supplement has B12 analogues in it?

I have been taking a high quality "greens" product for over a year. They did make a differnce in my overall health, my allergies stopped for one thing, but now that I am trying to eat raw I don't rely one them except only occasionally to use then up. But B12 analogues are not something I want in a vegan diet.

There is an explanation here from an AJCN paper by Herbert. It is also very interesting reading.

It also explains why some people can go 20 years before depleting their body reserves.

[www.ajcn.org]

This one about staging of deficiencies is also excellent:
[www.ajcn.org]

One vegan community in Iran failed to develop B12 deficiencies after many years. This had clinicians stumped. Eventually they determined that the reason why was that they fertilized their veggies with their own excrement, and they didn't wash them before eating.

I don't think these papers are too technical; to me they are high drama, but if you try to read them and get stumped, please post requesting for clarification.

some excepts (but please download the pdfs for easier reading and pictures):

(edit: Here read B-b2 as B-12, that is an artifact of the pdf-to-text function)

There is no active vitamin B-12 in anything that grows
out ofthe ground; storage vitamin B-l2 is found only in
animal products where it is ubiquitous and where it is
ultimately derived from bacteria (1, 2, 4). All the vitamin
B-b2 in plants is there fortuitously in bacteria contaminating
the food. That contamination is usually on the
outside of the plant but occasionally is internal. For cxample,
in certain pulses in India in the nodules and on
the root some bacteria ofthe rhizobium species grow and
produce small amounts ofvitamin B-l2. They also produce
analogues...


The more frequent source of vitamin B-l2 in association
with plant food is external contamination with bacteria,
often of fecal origin. In one of the less appetizing
but more brilliant experiments in the field of vitamin B-
12 metabolism in the 50s, Sheila Callender (7) in England
delineated that human colon bacteria make large
amounts of vitamin B-b2. Although the bacterial vitamm
B-l2 is not absorbed through the colon, it is active
for humans. Callender studied vegan volunteers who had
vitamin B-l2 deficiency disease characterized by classic
megalobbastic anemia. She collected 24-h stools, made
water extracts ofthem, and fed the extract to the patients,
thereby curing their vitamin B-l2 deficiency. This experiment
demonstrated clearly that 1) colon bacteria of vegans
make enough vitamin B-l2 to cure vitamin B-12 deficiency,
2) the vitamin B-b2 is not absorbed through the
colon wall, and 3) if given by mouth, it is absorbed primarily
in the small bowel. Vitamin B-12 is one of those
few nutrients absorbed primarily from the lower half of
the small bowel (3, 4, 6).

Structure of vitamin B-12 and analogues

The structure of the vitamin B-12 molecule is shown
in Figure 1. This molecule (cobalamin) consists of four
basic parts, the core of which is almost identical to the
heme ofhemogbobin, suggesting ontogenic development
from the same precursor. This core structure (corrin)
differs from heme in only two things: the attached metal
in corrin is cobalt (it is iron in heme) and one ofthe alpha
methene bridges(there are four in heme) is missing; there
are only three alpha methene bridges in the corrin nucleus.
The corrin nucleus is the central structure of all
the corrinoids.

Corrinoids are cobalt-containing cyclic structures in
the human body, in foods of animal origin (meat, poultry,
eggs, fish, milk, and milk products), and in the bacteria,
which make not only vitamin B-b2 but also various
analogues thereof (1-6). Vitamin B-l2 and all its anabogues
are corrinoids. The human uses as vitamin B-b2
only those corrin nuclei to which are added the three
other basic parts ofthe cobalamin molecule: aminopropanol,
sugar, and a nucleotide (5). To use it as a vitamin,
the human cell must see it as depicted in Figure 1, ie, as
a cobalamin with no alterations except in the R adduct.
Cobalamins remain vitamin active for humans with a
variety of R adducts, which are named cobalamin with
whatever is attached to cobalt as a prefix. Thus, we have
hydroxocobalamin (Fig 1), aquocobalamin, 5’-deoxyadenosylcobalamin,
methylcobalamin, and cyanocobalamin
among the naturally occurring human-active and
potentially human-active forms ofvitamin B-12 in vanous
foods.

One can sequentially remove parts of the vitamin B-
12 molecule, add side chains, or alter it in other ways. In
such cases it ceases to be a cobalamin and thus is not a
vitamin for humans. However, it may remain a cornnoid
vitamin for one or more ofa wide variety of simpler
life forms, such as algae and bacteria, which need only
the corrin nucleus for vitamin activity in contrast to humans
who need the entire cobalamin structure for vitamm
B-12 activity. As noted, in addition to cobalamin,
bacteria synthesize a number of vitamin B-12 analogues
that are noncobalamin comnoids and therefore not vitamm
active for humans.

How does one, then, differentiate the nonvitamin anabogues
from the true B-12, which is vitamin active for
humans, because it cannot be done by microbiologic assay?
This is done by differential radioassay (1, 3, 6). The
mixture of vitamin B-l2 and vitamin B-l2 analogues is
assayed for the total content ofcorrinoids (ie, total B-12)
by using a binder that attaches primarily to the cornn
nucleus. Such a binder is ubiquitous in human and animal
tissues; it is a heterogenous glycoprotein called R (for
rapid mobility on electrophoresis) binder. It is also called
transcobalamin 1+111 (TC 1+111), haptocorrin, or cobabophilin
(4, 6). R binder attaches only to the corrin nucleus
and thereby measures the total number of corrin
nuclei (true B-l2 plus noncobalamin analogues). Then
the vitamin B-12 active for humans (ie, cobalamin) is
assayed by using a substance which attaches to both ends
ofthe cobalamin molecule, the corrin end and the nudeotide
end. The substance that accomplishes this is intrinsic
factor (IF), first discovered by William Castle at Hayard
and the molecule that makes it possible to absorb
free vitamin B-b2. This gastric parietal-cell secretion is a
glycoprotein that attaches specifically to vitamin B-b2
with a high affinity coefficient but does not attach to anabogues
of vitamin B-l2 (9).

Some analogues do compete with vitamin
B-l2 for absorption and may block residual vitamin B-
12 absorption when it is already impaired (3, 10).
The fact that stool vitamin B-l2 can be important in
human vitamin B-l2 economy was delineated by James
Halsted (1 1) working with Iranian vegans who did not
get vitamin B-b2 deficiency. It was difficult to understand
why these people, who were strict vegetarians (vegans)
for religious reasons, did not get vitamin B-l2 deficiency.
Halsted went to Iran and found that they grew
their vegetables in night soi/(human manure). The vegetables
were eaten without being carefully washed and the
amount of retained vitamin B-l2 from the manure-rich
soil was adequate to prevent vitamin 8-12 deficiency.
Thus, strict vegetarians who do not practice thorough
hand washing or vegetable cleaning may be untroubled
by vitamin B-l2 deficiency.

Limitations of the standard Schilling test

As we get older we gradually develop, on a genetically
determined basis, gastric atrophy. About 1 person in 100
has vitamin B-l2 deficiency through gastric atrophy by
age 60. We have calculated that everybody in the United
States will develop vitamin B-12 deficiency by age 127;
it will be difficult to prove us wrong!
The sequence ofevents in developing vitamin B-l2 deficiency
is indicated in Figure 2 (12). Long before gastric
IF is lost we lose our gastric acid and gastric digestive
enzyme secretion and the ability to absorb vitamin B-12
from foods. This is because vitamin B-l2 is peptide
bound in milk and all other foods. To be absorbed, the
vitamin must first be cleaved from its peptide bonds.
This cleavage is brought about by gastric acid and digestive
enzymes.

Negative vitamin B-l2 balance characterized by the
inability to absorb vitamin 8-12 from food can be diagnosed
by a food Schilling test (ie, vitamin B-l2 in an omelet
is not absorbed). Doscherholmen (3, 13) showed that
the inability to absorb vitamin B-b2 from food can occur
in a 1-3 y period during which crystalline vitamin B-l2
is still normally absorbed (ie, the standard Schilhing test
gives normal results). This occurs because there is still
substantial IF secretion but the gastric acid and enzyme
secretion has been lost. It only takes -‘i-20% ofnormal IF
secretion for normal absorption of0.5-l.5 ig vitamin B-
12(3,6).

B-12 produced by intestinal bacteria

What is the role of intestinal bacteria above the colon
in vitamin B-l2 absorption? We have seen that the 5 ig
of vitamin B-l2 made by colon bacteria per 24 h is of
little, ifany, value to individuals unless they ingest some
of their own feces because vitamin B-12 is not absorbed
across the colon mucosa. If one takes gastric aspirates
from humans and looks for quantities ofviable bacteria,
one finds that as the gastric pH becomes closer to neutral
the quantities of bacteria gradually increase (1). In the
normal, healthy, acid-secreting stomach, there are very
few bacteria. As we grow older and our gastric acid secretion
decreases, gradually more bacteria grow in our
stomachs and upper small bowel(Fig 3)(1). This is a very
interesting phenomenon and we need to explore whether
these bacteria release any unbound vitamin B-12.
The average American omnivore or vegetarian who is
not a vegan get vitamin B-l2 from food in which the vitamm
B-12 is peptide bound. There is adequate vitamin
B-12 in milk or milk products for the needs ofany person
with normal gastric, pancreatic, and intestinal secretions
and functions. However, as noted, a negative vitamin B-
12 balance may result when those secretions are decreased.
Thus the potential contribution of gastric and
small intestine bacteria to overall vitamin B-b2 nutriture
is of interest.

There is normal distribution of viable bacteria in the
small intestine and the quantity ofbacteria increases progressiveby
(Fig 4) (1) down the small intestine to the cccum
where we have the highest colony count before the
colon. Of particular importance may be bacteroides,
which are present in the upper halfofthe small intestine
and which make both vitamin B-l2 and analogues. Albert,
Mathan, and Baker(1 5) found that Lactobaciii, the
streptococci, the bacteroides, and other enteral bacteria
in the small intestine made primarily vitamin B-12.
However, their studies used microbiologic assays with
organisms that grow on some noncobalamin comnoids.
It is thus uncertain how much ofthose bacterial products
were cobalamin rather than noncobalamin comnoids.
Enterohepatic circulation of vitamin B-i 2
The enterohepatic circulation of vitamin B-12 is of
crucial importance in human vitamin B-12 economy
particularly for vegetarians (4, 6). The reason is that anywhere
from 1 to 10 iig of vitamin B-l2 is secreted in the
bile each day. Nobody needs > 1 mcg vitamin B-12/d. We
normally reabsorb much of the vitamin B-12 in bile secretions.
In addition, enterohepatic circulation has the
effect of removing unwanted analogues from the body,
returning vitamin B-12 relatively free of analogues (3,
16, 17).

The vegetarian often may be getting more vitamin B-
12 by reabsorption from bile than from external foods.
This would be true for those who eat very little animal
protein. The reabsorption of bile vitamin B-12 explains
why it takes up to 20 y to run out of vitamin B-12 and get
vitamin B-12 deficiency disease after one stops consuming
dietary B-12 but only 3 y to run out and get vitamin
B-l2 deficiency disease if one stops absorbing the vitamm
(3, 4, 6).

The mechanism of vitamin B-i 2 absorption

In the average omnivorous American diet there are 5-
15 mcg of vitamin B-12 (2). The food vitamin B-b2 has to
be removed from its peptide bonds in the food by proteases
and acids in the stomach. When removed from food,
it does not immediately attach to IF but rather to the
ubiquitous R binder, which has a higher affinity for corrinoids
(including cobabamin) than does IF. Because we all
regularly swallow our own saliva, and saliva is loaded
with R binder, the vitamin B-b2 split from peptides in
our food attaches to R binder and not to IF. Similarly,
the vitamin B-b2 secreted in bile (along with analogues)
is attached to R binder. Vitamin B-12 cannot be absorbed
or reabsorbed as long as it is attached to R binder.
The pancreas secretes proteases which, at the slightly
alkaline pH of the upper intestine, selectively digest the
R binder, releasing its vitamin B-12, which then for the
first time is taken up by the dilute-alkali-resistant IF not
in the acidic stomach but in the mildly alkaline upper
small bowel. The vitamin B-12-IF complex then passes
down into the ileum, where it attaches to specific receptors
for the vitamin B-b2-IF complex (Fig 5) and is then
absorbed (9).

Pancreatic secretion not only digests the R binder and
releases the food vitamin B-b2 but also digests the R
binder that comes out in the bile with vitamin B-l2 attached
to it, thereby allowing that vitamin B-12 also to
migrate to IF and then be absorbed across the ileum (16).
Thus, a healthy pancreas is ofcrucial importance in the
absorption ofvitamin B-b2 (17).

The ileal receptor is not just for IF but, as we showed
25 y ago, is a key-and-lock receptor for the complex of
vitamin B-l2 and IF. That is a very important distinction
because the receptor is for the complex and there can be
some absorption ofvitamin B-l2 (an incomplete key) in
the absence of IF and there is evidence that does in fact
occur. This direct vitamin B-l2 absorption can be
blocked by analogues and is an area of active research
right now (3). Shaw delineated that the main site of absorption
of analogues is in the ileum just as is the main
site ofabsorption ofvitamin B-12 itself(18).
There are two separate mechanisms for vitamin B-12
absorption: the IF-dependent physiologic mechanism
and the mass-action pharmacologic mechanism whereby
1% of any quantity of free vitamin B-b2 is absorbed by
diffusion across the ileum (Table 2) (1, 4, 6).

Needed dietary intake of vitamin B-i2

How much vitamin B-12 do we need? No more than
1 mcg daily (2).

Nobody needs more than 1 mcg/d because 1 &g would
actually treat and return to normal people with no stores
of vitamin B-12 (2). The average omnivorous human, if
one does sequential studies each decade, has a progressiveby
rising liver level of vitamin B-12 throughout life,
indicating the average omnivore is eating much more vitamin
B-12 than needed and is in continuous positive
balance and progressively storing the excess. There is
nothing about continuous positive balance that is inherently
desirable (12).

What is the minimal daily amount we need? Less than
1 mcg. In studies carried out at Harvard with then research
fellow Louis Sullivan, we showed that one can treat vitamm
B-12 deficiency with as little as 0. 1 mcg/d (2). At this
bevel stores are not rapidly replenished and the response
is submaximal but it only takes 0. 1 mcg to produce a response.
The minimum daily requirement (MDR) for vitamin
B-12 to sustain normality is probably in the range of
i.-0. 1 mcg, 0.2-0.25 mcg/d absorbed from food is probably
adequate for anybody (2). There are no objective published
data that larger amounts ofvitamin B-12 have any
added value for greater health or longer life. The current
Canadian Recommended Dietary Allowances (RDA)
and the recent Recommended Dietary Intakes (RDI)
for vitamin B-12 are lower than previous recommendations
(2).

Sources of vitamin B-12

Fermented products, such as soy products bike tempeh,
do not contain substantial amounts ofB-12 (1). The
amounts given on the labels cannot be trusted because
they were obtained by the US Pharmacopeia (USP) assay
method, which sellers ofproducts containing vitamin B-
12 are required to use.

The label-stated content of vitamin B-l2 is in fact the
content of all comnoids in which L leichmannii grows
and not just cobalamin. It should say corrinoids rather
than vitamin B-12. The Food and Drug Administration
(FDA) was petitioned several years ago to require vitamm
B-12 assay for true vitamin B-12 and analogues and
perhaps the assay will eventually be changed.

We studied several types oftempeh, including Original
Soy Tempeh, a Rhizobus oligosporus culture with a label
claim of 160% of the US RDA for vitamin B-12 per 4
oz. Using the differential radioassay we found there was
practically no vitamin B-l2 in it (1).

We also studied most of the spirulinas sold in health
food stores as sources ofvitamin B-12; there is practically
no vitamin B-l2 in them. The so-called vitamin 8-12 is
almost exclusively analogues of vitamin B-12 and we
have extracted the two largest peaks of analogues and
they actually block vitamin B-12 metabolism. We suspect
that people taking spirulina as a source of vitamin
B-12 may get vitamin B-12 deficiency quicker because
the analogues in the product block human mammalian
cell metabolism in culture and we suspect they will also
do this in the living human. Remember that the label
claim of vitamin B-12 is actually a claim of comnoid
content, not vitamin B-12 content.

The vegan diet, if it is a diet exclusively of products
that grow out ofthe ground, which are then well washed,
contains no vitamin B-12 except trace amounts in some
rhibozium-bacteria-containing root nodules. Careful
studies from England (19) on several hundred vegans
showed that they all eventually get vitamin B-l2 deficiency
disease with anemia and pancytopenia, low white
counts, low red counts, low platelet counts, and slowed
DNA synthesis (19). Vegans all eventually have slowed
DNA synthesis, which is corrected by vitamin B-12. My
advice to the vegan parents of a vegan child is that you
have to provide a supply of vitamin B-l2. Yeast grown
on vitamin B-b2-enriched medium is only the answer
when some of the vitamin B-12-enriching medium is
mixed in with the yeast that is eaten because the yeast
itselfdoes not contain active vitamin B-12; it contains a
lot ofanalogues but not active vitamin B-12. Differential
radioassay show that all the vitamin B-12 is accounted
for by vitamin B-12-enriched medium rather than by
the yeast itself. Vegans must get a source for vitamin B-
12. It can be 1 mcg/d of vitamin B-12 in a tablet or in
something else but it has to be cobalamin.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2006 04:32PM by arugula.

Dulset Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How does one tell if a product/supplement has B12
> analogues in it?
>
> I have been taking a high quality "greens" product
> for over a year. They did make a differnce in my
> overall health, my allergies stopped for one
> thing, but now that I am trying to eat raw I don't
> rely one them except only occasionally to use then
> up. But B12 analogues are not something I want in
> a vegan diet.

I'm sure arugula's post explains it, but if you don't want to read all that, basically it's not greens in general, it's specifically spirulina and maybe some other alge/seaweeds (?) nwhich have the B12 analogues.

Rob

--
Rob Hull - Funky Raw
My blog: [www.rawrob.com]