i don't think you've convinced the RAW oil is different advocates.

i sent an email to greger but no response.

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dr. Esselstyn's famous shouting "NO OIL" routine.
> He's intimidating.
>
> [www.youtube.com]


I guess it's a good thing that reality differs from Esselstyn's opinion. Maybe you're just attracted to him, who knows.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I guess it's a good thing that reality differs
> from Esselstyn's opinion.


You are a riot. More fun than a barrel full of monkeys.


> Maybe you're just
> attracted to him, who knows.

I'll take his son, thanks!

she's going to use him to get to his son, he's the real dreamy one.
damn, you beat me to it. by a microsecond



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2015 09:05PM by fresh.

"I'll take his son, thanks!"

Hmm, I seem to recall someone you've previously mentioned who had that type of mindset towards you!

"More fun than a barrel full of monkeys."

Almost, but not quite.

jtprindl: some good posts here.

I used to buy into Esselstyn's `no oil' video until l started widely reading the research on fats. Ironically, it was the low fat paper of Vogel which gave some of the first solutions to protecting against the damages of oils. As l always say...if you go higher fat one is advised to develop strategies to protect oneself from factors 7a, 7c, decreased FMD etc.

Another irony was a pro low fat government site which provided a paper which came to the conclusion that long chain omega 3's protect against insulin resistance on higher fat diets.

www.thesproutarian.com

Interesting paper here:

Cognitive impairment following high fat diet consumption is associated with brain inflammation. Pistell PJ, Morrison CD, Gupta S, Knight AG, Keller JN, Ingram DK, Bruce-Keller AJ. J Neuroimmunol. 2010 Feb 26;219(1-2):25-32

The disruption in cognition at this forum is likely to be due to brain inflammation from high fat diets. Pistell et al. suggest that it may be so. They used lard instead of coconut oil and they used mice instead of people but there are some interesting parallels.

[This reminds me of the shock of attending a turtle necropsy as part of a previous job. Inside, they are arranged almost exactly like people, and if it weren't for everything being minaturized, one could hardly tell the difference.]

I have often thought that the coconut oil defenders are to raw what the paleos are to SAD.

It makes me sad.

"They used lard instead of coconut oil"

Lol yep, there's definitely quite a difference between lard and raw, extra-virgin coconut oil.

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Interesting paper here:
>
> Cognitive impairment following high fat diet
> consumption is associated with brain inflammation.
> Pistell PJ, Morrison CD, Gupta S, Knight AG,
> Keller JN, Ingram DK, Bruce-Keller AJ. J
> Neuroimmunol. 2010 Feb 26;219(1-2):25-32



We need to be very careful when reading this study. Inflammation by itself is not neccessarily a bad thing, but when it gets out of control it will be harmful. Now...when we implement strategies in the diet we can control inflammation from getting out of control, so to conclude that higher fats will automatically lead to excessive inflammation is far too much of a generalised idea, especially when we can bring in omega 3 ALA which can convert over to EPA/DHA.


>
> The disruption in cognition at this forum is
> likely to be due to brain inflammation from high
> fat diets. Pistell et al. suggest that it may be
> so. They used lard instead of coconut oil and they
> used mice instead of people but there are some
> interesting parallels.


I think exactly the same about high fruit diets in relation to observed poor cognitive functioning and behavioural/mental stability issues amply demonstrated online. I am so concerned about the high fruit diet that l am making it a mission to try and find out some clues as to why people on high fruit diets as a group display signs of poor brain functioning and behaviour. Now please...this is not an attack by any means, for l am not the only one to observe this...l am absolutely stunned and strongly feel something is wrong with the low fat high fruit diet. I have been reading psychiatry journals to try and find some clues as to explain what l am observing, and it could be that the high glucose levels in the blood when it stated "chronically higher blood glucose levels exert a negative influence on cognition, possibly mediated by structural changes in learning-relevant brain areas", but l can't be sure, l have a lot of research still to do in this area. Another paper links demenia risk with high glucose in the blood, and l am certainly seeing some long term fruit eaters displaying symptoms of confusion. AND...when l do high fruit l also get confused and experience poor cognitive functioning. Now look...l am not stating these things as facts, l am only reporting what l have been reading, have a long way tpo go before l am able to put all this stuff togeather and make sense of it, and l know that to make these theories applicable that l need to understand insulin functioning much better before l can really start nailing these ideas and putting them out there. None-the-less, l would NEVER EVER promote a high fruit low fat diet to anyone, my conscience would never allow it. If people want to do it, l say to try it, but l would never recommend it because l see so many doing poorly on such diets (mentally and behaviourally). Even the ones who claim to do well on the high fruit diet still demonstrate behavioural issues and ratty behaviour. I see meat eaters in general functioning in more balanced ways and cognitively better. I am not sure what it is, but l feel the linking of fats and cholesterol to hormone levels could be an issue, and l feel the inbalanced fruit diet could be another, namely high copper limiting zinc absorption which makes EPA/DHA fatty manufacture very limited. There could be lots of things, and l am determined to get to the bottom of it one day.



>
> It makes me sad.

I feel exactly the same way about the high fruit diet, it is tragic imo. My intuition is waving a big red flag on the high fruit low fat diets and l can't just ignore it.

Look, that is my opinion that has been formed over years of observation and research. Obviously you are not going to agree. The thing l am always trying to explain is that high fat is not a disease sentence when we implement STRATEGIES, but very few ever seem to get it. Never mind, l am not here to convince the world, l am here to connect with some that do understand what l am saying.

That's my opinion...l am not going to bash you for thinking differently, and l hope that no-one will bash me for having an opinion either.


It is also interesting how Gabriel Cousens also talks about excessive fructose causing inflammation on the glial cells of the brain and that more than two bananas is the absolute fructose limit. I have tried to track down the research with no success so far, but l have been finding some very interesting things on my search.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2015 07:33AM by The Sproutarian Man.

Hey Brian,

Here's a concept that, once again, seems to have ESCAPED your perceptions...

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
Habit 4: Think Win/Win

John,

Gabriel Cousens talks about the ills of high fruit diets, so does Brian Clement, John McDougal (sugar diets), Lou Carona etc. I have my opinions too. I shall continue to do research into this area on and off over coming years, and if l come across anything really solid to back up my intuitions l will come out and warn people. My inutition is telling me something isn't right with the high fruit non FRESH diet, so l need to stick with this and try to uncover possible reasons. I need to do this for mankind, l want more people to succeed at the raw vegan diet.

Brian Clement mentions that pancreatic function is below par on almost all HHI guests and that fruit should be strictly limited, but in reality this doesn't appear to be the case because many people have good glucose levels within limits.

What is going on? Is it the sugar or low fat/cholesterol? The low fat and cholesterol can be explained much easier, but the sugar ideas don't appear to be sound at all when applied to normal people, BUT Gabriel talks about fructose inflamming brain cells, but where is the paper which mentions this?

We need to keep researching these areas. Something is not right.

Things will NEVER Change until we reach the Tipping Point and YOU - Brian, are NOT helping us reach the Tipping Point!!!

THINK WIN/WIN

There's another way for you to get your message out WITHOUT BASHING RAW FOOD and for some reason you have NOT figured it out yet.

Fruit trees are the basis and hub of Permaculture Food Forests, you couldn't be more off on Sproutman. We either cover the Earth with self-sustaining Food Forests, or whack off all the vegetation and plant short lived crops like Alfalfa, Chia, Sunflower etc. Which path enhances the Earth and all the creatures thereon...?

<<<Fruit trees are the basis and hub of Permaculture Food Forests, you couldn't be more off on Sproutman. We either cover the Earth with self-sustaining Food Forests, or whack off all the vegetation and plant short lived crops like Alfalfa, Chia, Sunflower etc. Which path enhances the Earth and all the creatures thereon...????

You nailed it NuNativs!!!

There's only one solution and the Sproutman is NOT near as Enlightened as he pretends to be if he thinks our future is in sprouts and continues to SHOOT INSIDE THE TENT.

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Interesting paper here:
>
> Cognitive impairment following high fat diet
> consumption is associated with brain inflammation.
> Pistell PJ, Morrison CD, Gupta S, Knight AG,
> Keller JN, Ingram DK, Bruce-Keller AJ. J
> Neuroimmunol. 2010 Feb 26;219(1-2):25-32
>
> The disruption in cognition at this forum is
> likely to be due to brain inflammation from high
> fat diets. Pistell et al. suggest that it may be
> so. They used lard instead of coconut oil and they
> used mice instead of people but there are some
> interesting parallels.
>
>
>
> I have often thought that the coconut oil
> defenders are to raw what the paleos are to SAD.
>
> It makes me sad.
Feeding lard to mice tells us something about a humans diet. Interesting. My baby looks like a miniature version of myself, perhaps I should force feed a two month old 55 servings of fruit and vegetables for optimum health. The mental application/comparison of a mouse study to a human hardly seems empirical and scientific.


What does science say about people like Robert cassar? He eats more fat in a week than you likely do in year, yet he is thriving. Looks physically good, must be doing well mentally to run his company, grows a lot of his own food, etc. I suppose according to science he is just going to shrivel up and die,painful and diseased any moment now. On top of his company, large estate, happy disposition, he is also a multi millionaire for those of you materialists out there. What is so sad exactly?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2015 06:44PM by tezcal.

"There's only one solution and the Sproutman is NOT near as Enlightened as he pretends to be if he thinks our future is in sprouts and continues to SHOOT INSIDE THE TENT."

TSM has mentioned multiple times in the past that he does not believe that in an ideal world it is necessary to be sproutarian, but that the modern world is far from ideal (immersed in toxicity) and sprouts are a great way to get truly fresh food into the body as opposed to store-bought fruit which could be weeks if not months old. I would also disagree that he is "shooting inside the tent" but rather discussing different aspects of the raw food diet.

Yes, that is where people start getting confused, people see things as idealists, but the world is not a forest, nor does N.H work for many. We want to provide diet solutions for the real world and not be stuck with idealist dreams and ideas because that serves no purpose at this point in time.

If things were more ideal l would be striving more towards N.H ideas. I am not as against the idea as people think, but now is not the time to be entertaining those ideas.

The world is a mess, so that means higher fat diets and sprouting is well advised to be incorporated into people's diets at this point in time.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, that is where people start getting confused,
> people see things as idealists, but the world is
> not a forest, nor does N.H work for many. We want
> to provide diet solutions for the real world and
> not be stuck with idealist dreams and ideas
> because that serves no purpose at this point in
> time.
>
> If things were more ideal l would be striving more
> towards N.H ideas. I am not as against the idea as
> people think, but now is not the time to be
> entertaining those ideas.
>
> The world is a mess, so that means higher fat
> diets and sprouting is well advised to be
> incorporated into people's diets at this point in
> time.


Sprouts also provide an abundance of enzymes (which are at much lower levels in store-bought produce) and phytochemical protection from various toxins. Also, with all the environmental toxins nowadays that wreak havoc on hormonal health, it may be imperative to take in higher levels of fat for optimal functioning. There are a variety of herbal and 'superfood' remedies which are great for balancing hormones as well.

As a raw food community, we have to get over the "my way or the highway" style of eating. There are far too many variables - many different types of raw food diets can work depending on the individual and depending on their dietary strategies. So you want to eat high-fat? Great, just make sure you're eating lots of highly anti-inflammatory omega-3's and have a healthy omega-3 to omega-6 ratio (preferably 1:1 to 1:3). You can also consume plenty of potent anti-inflammatory substances such as curcumin (turmeric), cannabinoids (raw cannabis leaf juice), phycocyanin (AFA & spirulina), various fruits, etc. So you want to eat high-fruit? Great, just make sure to eat as fresh as possible, do diligent research to assure you're fulfilling all nutritional needs (such as zinc, selenium, EPA/DHA), engage in enough exercise to avoid any detrimental effects from potentially excess sugar, and take extra care of your teeth.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Sprouts also provide an abundance of enzymes
> (which are at much lower levels in store-bought
> produce) and phytochemical protection from various
> toxins. Also, with all the environmental toxins
> nowadays that wreak havoc on hormonal health, it
> may be imperative to take in higher levels of fat
> for optimal functioning. There are a variety of
> herbal and 'superfood' remedies which are great
> for balancing hormones as well.


YES YES YES, you get it!!! These things are so important thaT I could write a book easily on this stuff. We don't want half dead store bought fruits and vegetables, we want the heavy artilliary with high levels of enyzmes/phytochemicals and increased long chain omega 3 fat levels for very very important reasons. The problem as l see it is that the raw food movement has NOT moved with the times...it is largely stuck in the past and has lost relevance, especially the N.H diets. I am not saying to go sproutarian, but l am advising to incorporate at least three of the most important foods in the world, ie, sunflower greens, chia sprouts and brocolli sprouts. But doing 50% sprouts in the diet is advisable too. And what's more, we can still tailor a custom diet to be able to alter the macro nutrient ratios and micronutrient levels, and very few raw vegan diets have that ability. Flexibility is the key, and by that l am not just talking eating a variety of different fruit, l am talking about altering ratios and implementing protection strategies when needed. Lets move past raw food 101, lets go deeper.

When we start buying into old dietary philosophies in this day and age we risk limiting flexibility and strategies, so of course such thinking will make one prone to failure, and low and behold, that is exactly what we are seeing.


>
> As a raw food community, we have to get over the
> "my way or the highway" style of eating.


Yes! That old hat thinking is because we have been brainwashed by profoundly ignorant raw food leaders. These leaders were o.k in the past when we knew no better, but they are no longer relevant and play an important role in helping the raw movement move forward. The dumbed down raw food leaders are good for introducing people to fruits and vegetables, but that is as far as it goes. They have served their time in the sun.






> There are
> far too many variables - many different types of
> raw food diets can work depending on the
> individual and depending on their dietary
> strategies. So you want to eat high-fat? Great,
> just make sure you're eating lots of highly
> anti-inflammatory omega-3's and have a healthy
> omega-3 to omega-6 ratio (preferably 1:1 to 1:3).
> You can also consume plenty of potent
> anti-inflammatory substances such as curcumin
> (turmeric), cannabinoids (raw cannabis leaf
> juice), phycocyanin (AFA & spirulina), various
> fruits, etc. So you want to eat high-fruit? Great,
> just make sure to eat as fresh as possible, do
> diligent research to assure you're fulfilling all
> nutritional needs (such as zinc, selenium,
> EPA/DHA), engage in enough exercise to avoid any
> detrimental effects from potentially excess sugar,
> and take extra care of your teeth.


EXACTLY!!! You get it! It is so simple to understand, but many still can't wrack their brains around it. Strategy is the key, strategy is the future. We need to stay relevant and move with the times.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2015 10:12PM by The Sproutarian Man.

I received a somewhat disappointing response from colleague of esselstyn that was sort of amusing ("does not want you consuming them" .

--i asked....
some say that RAW oils and RAW fruit high in fat like coconut and avocado, is not detrimental.

can you comment?

---reply....
Any added fat and high fat items are not good for you and Dr. Esselstyn does not want you consuming them.

Pthh, talk about partial truths. A pretty meaningless question and response. Needs to look at the whole picture and not just a partial situation.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pthh, talk about partial truths. A pretty
> meaningless question and response. Needs to look
> at the whole picture and not just a partial
> situation.


the question was in context of his talk where he said no oils because of their alleged effect on cardiovascular health. so not meaningless.

Sproutman, once you demonstrate that you can grow both the plants that produce the seeds that you will then sprout, and then also grow the sprouts themselves, I will pay attention.

Meanwhile I have witnessed WILD fruit and nut trees that shower bushels of food down that are unattended, and uncared for. Your pal Arthur knows all about this...

Spouty, what the hell are you babbling about?

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sproutman, once you demonstrate that you can grow
> both the plants that produce the seeds that you
> will then sprout, and then also grow the sprouts
> themselves, I will pay attention.


I don't need your attention, nor do l need most people to believe in what l say, you and most raw fooders are not the target market l wish to work with. I can offer general sprout advice for the population, but l usually do the deep work with niche' audiences. I never need to advertise, the powers that be will send the people ready for `real truth' and the bigger picture to me.....most people do not qualify because they still worship the system and follow very narrow health philosphies.


Btw, recommending limited use of nuts and seeds and very low fat is extremism. People have become tired of such thinking and the tired is turning imo.

Anon 102 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Spouty, what the hell are you babbling about?


If you need to ask that question then you are obviously not meant to know at this point in time.

Anon: it's probably best to stick to what you are currently doing.

Sprout wrote:
"Btw, recommending limited use of nuts and seeds and very low fat is extremism. People have become tired of such thinking and the tired is turning imo."

We agree..

Sometimes it is nice to have someone agree with ourselves. I am plesantly surprised you agree.

Be well, and goodbye for now. Until another day, farewell. *waves*.


The Sproutarian.

If any low-fat promoters under the "one diet fits all" mentality disagree, any logical comments to these two paragraphs? Not a challenge by any means, just curious.


There is zero evidence that raw, plant-based fats are unhealthy in any way, shape, or form. In fact, there's lots of evidence to the contrary. Many people claim that fat in general is atherogenic, completely oblivious to the fact that there's a huge difference between raw, plant-based fats and cooked animal fats. It is also a myth that saturated fat causes heart disease. Inflammation causes heart disease - fats cooked at high temperatures and excessive intake of omega-6's are both highly inflammatory. Fat is not the bad guy, inflammation is. Omega-3's are powerful anti-inflammatory fats which offer significant protection against atherosclerosis and heart disease and help promote a healthy, balanced omega fatty acid ratio. Furthermore, there's an overwhelming amount of scientific evidence proving the heart healthy benefits of fatty foods such as nuts, seeds, and extra-virgin olive oil. For anyone under the assumption that there is credible evidence suggesting that fat in general is to blame for heart disease, it's very important to consider the aforementioned inflammatory factors as well as the quality of food used in the study. For example, conflicting results have been reported when comparing extra-virgin olive oil to regular olive oil, with extra-virgin olive oil demonstrating a myriad of health benefits. Obviously, highly refined and/or highly processed foods aren't going to give favorable results. This fat condemning logic is on par with condemning all vegan diets because of a study that found poor results with vegans eating processed/junk food diets but decided to mindlessly place all the blame on veganism.

As a raw food community, we have to get over the "my way or the highway" style of eating. There are far too many variables - many different types of raw food diets can work depending on the individual and depending on their dietary strategies. So you want to eat high-fat? Great, just make sure you're eating lots of highly anti-inflammatory omega-3's and have a healthy omega-3 to omega-6 ratio (preferably 1:1 to 1:3). You can also consume plenty of potent anti-inflammatory substances such as curcumin (turmeric), cannabinoids (raw cannabis leaf juice), phycocyanin (AFA & spirulina), various fruits, etc. So you want to eat high-fruit? Great, just make sure to eat as fresh as possible, do diligent research to assure you're fulfilling all nutritional needs (such as zinc, selenium, EPA/DHA), engage in enough exercise to avoid any detrimental effects from potentially excess sugar, and take extra care of your teeth.

Good jtprindl.

(the rest deleted)
...............



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2015 02:30AM by The Sproutarian Man.