What's the point if you don't understand logic? FYI I have taught it as well as statistics in college. This is why I prefer respected sources to the magical mystical guru type of thinking.

Ornish, low-fat: passes the gold standard--the cardiac cath test. Increased blood flow.

Ornish, low-fat: reverses prostate cancer

Ornish, low-fat: lengthens telomeres. He had a nobel laureate as a co-author on this one.

No moderate- or high-fat diet has ever done any of these things in the established literature.

Just because it's raw does not make it harmless.

Just because it's fruit does not make it sweet. I eat a lot of zucchini, pepper, cucumber, and tomato.

You get more vitamins, minerals, protective phytochemicals, and fiber from eating 400 kcal of plants or fruit compared to 400 kcal of oil.

The ultra-long lived population on this planet--the Okinawans--got nearly 90% of their calories from carbohydrate. Do you think their lives would have been extended if they replaced half of their plant foods with raw coconut oil? I don't. They would be malnourished in that case, with decreased flow through their coronary arteries and they would not have lived as long.

You are looking for justification to avoid eating more healthy plant foods. I am not inclined to provide it because I don't believe it is true. There are better choices.

I am not saying that it has to be 15 apples but maybe a head of romaine, a couple of cucumbers and bell peppers, a few tomatoes, and a zucchini or two, maybe a few more servings of peaches and pineapple, with maybe a tablespoon of fresh grated coconut meat. Not 4 tbsp of coconut oil.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2015 02:33AM by arugula.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fat is not the bad guy,
> inflammation is. Omega-3's are powerful
> anti-inflammatory fats which offer significant
> protection against atherosclerosis and heart
> disease and help promote a healthy, balanced omega
> fatty acid ratio.

jtprindl, did you read the firts post?

FIRTS POST of this thread

Quote

Saturated fat causes more of those toxic breakdown products and mitochondrial dysfunction and increase oxidative stress free radicals and inflammation, establishing a vicious cycle of events.

Fat cells filled with saturated fat activate an inflammatory response to a far greater extent. This increased inflammation, along with eating more saturated fat, has been demonstrated to raise insulin resistance through free radical and ceramide production.

We know prolonged exposure of our muscles to high levels of fat leads to severe insulin resistance, with saturated fats demonstrated to be the worst, but they don’t just lead to inhibition of insulin signaling, the activation of inflammatory pathways, and the increase in free radicals, they cause an alteration in gene expression, leading to a suppression of key mitochondrial enzymes.

[atvb.ahajournals.org]

Quote

Since the discovery that obesity is associated with macrophage accumulation in adipose tissue,1,2 mechanisms by which adipose tissue becomes inflamed, resulting in insulin resistance, have remained elusive. Several studies have demonstrated that saturated fatty acids (SFAs) stimulate adipose tissue inflammation by a process that involves Toll-like receptor 4 (TLR4), a receptor that binds bacterial lipopolysaccharide (LPS). TLR4 is a pattern recognition receptor that plays a key role in the innate immune response. The observation that TLR4 deficiency protected against insulin resistance in obesity induced by a diet high in SFAs3 suggested that TLR4 was the link between diet excess and insulin resistance.3 Attenuation of diet-induced insulin resistance4,5 and adipose tissue inflammation6 also have been observed in C3H/HeJ mice with a loss of function mutation in TLR4.

[thedoctorweighsin.com]

Quote

Studies have shown that diets high in trans fatty acids and saturated fatty acids can have pro-inflammatory effects. Trans fatty acids, in particular, have been shown to increase CRP, IL-6, and TNFa. It is important to note, however, that neither of these fats had a very strong inflammatory effect when consumed in a low to moderate fat diet. This suggests that it is the level of fat in an individual’s diet which influences the pro and anti-inflammatory effects of trans and saturated fatty acids, causing them to be more inflammatory than normal when consumed in high amounts.

[www.nutritionj.com]

Quote

Saturated fatty acids (SFA)

Numerous in vitro and in vivo studies have shed light on the inflammatory effect of SFA [27-29]. Evidence from a substantial number of studies has reported that SFA stimulate inflammatory response by a pathway involving Toll-like receptors (TLR) (Figure 1). TLR are a class of pattern recognition receptors that play a crucial role in an innate immune system (reviewed in [30]). Elevated levels of TLR-4 have been reported in the obese state whereby the expression was found in many insulin target tissues such as liver, muscle, brain, adipose tissue, vasculature and pancreatic B-cells [31].

"What's the point if you don't understand logic? FYI I have taught it as well as statistics in college."

Lol this again? An ad hominem and appeal to authority fallacy in two consecutive sentences. Nothing you or anyone else has done in college pertains to this conversation. I trust that you're an intelligent woman but nutrition is not your forte.

"Just because it's raw does not make it harmless.
No moderate- or high-fat diet has ever done any of these things in the established literature."

Where is established literature which shows that raw, plant-based fats are unhealthy? There isn't any. Raw obviously doesn't automatically mean harmless, but you are failing to acknowledge a few very important distinctions:

Inflammation causes heart disease, not fat - cooked fats, especially animal products (which is what every study you're referring to is based upon) and excessive omega-6 intakes are both extremely inflammatory. Fat in general is not harmful - highly inflammatory fats (cooked, refined, excessive omega-6's, etc.) are the problem. I'm sure you're aware of the vast amount of evidence showing that omega-3's are very beneficial to heart health (imagine that, they're also powerful anti-inflammatories).

"No moderate- or high-fat diet has ever done any of these things in the established literature."

This is irrelevant in regards to this conversation because there has never been any studies conducted on the type of high-fat diet I am referring to. Any study you could possibly reference which you think shows fats in general are harmful was based upon individuals eating cooked animal products and paid zero attention to omega-3 to omega-6 fatty acid ratios. Many of these same individuals could've also been, and probably were, eating processed foods during the period of study, even further skewing the data.

"The ultra-long lived population on this planet--the Okinawans--got nearly 90% of their calories from carbohydrate. Do you think their lives would have been extended if they replaced half of their plant foods with raw coconut oil? I don't."

"You get more vitamins, minerals, protective phytochemicals, and fiber from eating 400 kcal of plants or fruit compared to 400 kcal of oil."

No, I don't think their lives would've been extended if they replaced half of their diet with raw coconut oil, but that's another completely irrelevant point. I'm not advocating an oil-based diet, I'm stating that high-fat diets are not unhealthy simply because they're high in fat. The types of fats (raw vs. cooked, omega-3's vs. omega-6's) and other dietary strategies determine how healthy X high-fat diet is. Also, high-fat doesn't mean high-oil - you can be high-fat and consume zero oils.

I also don't believe the Okinawans live a long time because of the percentage of carbohydrates they consume. They live a long time because they eat predominantly plant-based diets, engage in lots of moderate physical activity, and live low-stress lives. I'm sure there are other factors as well.

"You are looking for justification to avoid eating more healthy plant foods. I am not inclined to provide it because I don't believe it is true."

I recommend eating a wide variety of healthy plant foods so this wouldn't apply to me. In fact, I recommend more than you as I also encourage people to consume herbs and algae's. I love fruit and would eat a lot more of it if I had access to truly fresh fruit and hope you understand that there is no bias but simply an acknowledgement on my end that there is no "one size fits all" diet. Again, there are far too many variables to consider, some of which I've shared with you.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2015 03:33AM by jtprindl.

"jtprindl, did you read the firts post?"

That post demonstrates the effects of cooked/refined/animal fats, not raw, extra-virgin coconut oil. Again, not all saturated fat is created equal and by no means am I recommending a diet very high in coconut oil or oil in general. Read my latest response to arugula for a more detailed answer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2015 03:31AM by jtprindl.

jtprindl,

1 Saturated fat causes inflamation

2 coconut oil is 92% Saturated fat

3 Therefore, coconut oil causes inflamation

4 inflamation causes heart disease

5 Therefore, coconut oil causes heart disease by causing inflamation

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jtprindl,
>
> 1 Saturated fat causes inflamation
>
> 2 coconut oil is 92% Saturated fat
>
> 3 Therefore, coconut oil causes inflamation
>
> 4 inflamation causes heart disease
>
> 5 Therefore, coconut oil causes heart disease by
> causing inflamation


1.) Cooked saturated fat and animal-based saturated fat causes inflammation.
2.) Raw, extra-virgin coconut oil contains different saturated fats than animal foods.
3.) Therefore, concluding that coconut oil causes inflammation is illogical.


[articles.mercola.com] - "If one form of saturated fat is bad for you, the argument goes, then all saturated fat must be bad. Right? Nothing could be further from the truth!...."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2015 03:41AM by jtprindl.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - Polyphenolics isolated from virgin coconut oil inhibits adjuvant induced arthritis in rats through antioxidant and anti-inflammatory action - "Thus the results demonstrated the potential beneficiary effect of PV on adjuvant induced arthritis in rats and the mechanism behind this action is due to its antioxidant and anti-inflammatory effects."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - Anti-inflammatory, analgesic, and antipyretic activities of virgin coconut oil - "The results obtained suggest anti-inflammatory, analgesic, and antipyretic properties of VCO."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "This study showed that VCO supplementation is capable of preventing elevation in blood pressure and also decreasing deactivation of nitric oxide in male rats fed with repeatedly heated palm oil. In addition, VCO does not influence relaxation but DECREASES vasoconstriction of the endothelium".

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> nutrition is not your
> forte.

Since you are not in the habit of reading full papers,
I will kindly overlook this statement and attribute it
to the Dunning-Kruger effect.


> Inflammation causes heart disease, not fat -

Explain then why it is reversed when the nonessential
fat component of the diet is removed.

> cooked fats, especially animal products (which is
> what every study you're referring to is based
> upon) and excessive omega-6 intakes are both
> extremely inflammatory. Fat in general is not
> harmful

Please provide established sources supporting your
statement.

> This is irrelevant in regards to this conversation
> because there has never been any studies conducted
> on the type of high-fat diet I am referring to.

You are going out on a limb as you tend to do. This
does not provide for a solid foundation on which to
build one's life.

> Any study you could possibly reference which you
> think shows fats in general are harmful was based
> upon individuals eating cooked animal products and
> paid zero attention to omega-3 to omega-6 fatty
> acid ratios.


You are suggesting that the solution to a high fat
diet is to add more fat to get the balance acceptable.

The amount of required EFAs is actually quite small.

There is no convincing literature
suggesting that there are health benefits in adding
additional fat. Also, it is very possible to maintain
optimal O6:O3 ratios on a diet with no overt sources
of fat.

>Many of these same individuals
> could've also been, and probably were, eating
> processed foods during the period of study, even
> further skewing the data.

No, you did not read the papers. Whole foods, plant-based
diet. Earlier studies allowed modest quantities of nonfat dairy
and/or fish oil supplements on the order of grams.


> No, I don't think their lives would've been
> extended if they replaced half of their diet with
> raw coconut oil,


Thanks for being reasonable!

>but that's another completely
> irrelevant point. I'm not advocating an oil-based
> diet,

Yes, you are.


>I'm stating that high-fat diets are not
> unhealthy simply because they're high in fat.

Yes, they are.

>The
> types of fats (raw vs. cooked, omega-3's vs.
> omega-6's) and other dietary strategies determine
> how healthy X high-fat diet is. Also, high-fat
> doesn't mean high-oil - you can be high-fat and
> consume zero oils.

It's marginally better because there is some fiber
and more vitamins, minerals, phytochemicals, and
protein. But all that excess fat is throwing the
potential for more beneficial calorie sources
away.

> I also don't believe the Okinawans live a long
> time because of the percentage of carbohydrates
> they consume. They live a long time because they
> eat predominantly plant-based diets, engage in
> lots of moderate physical activity, and live
> low-stress lives. I'm sure there are other factors
> as well.


The Cretans in Keys' 1950s studies gained fame for their low
rates of CHD. But they were not particularly long-lived.

> I recommend eating a wide variety of healthy plant
> foods so this wouldn't apply to me. In fact, I
> recommend more than you as I also encourage people
> to consume herbs and algae's.


Herbs and algae provide marginal calories. You
have a very different definition of "more" compared
to myself. In my book, "more" means significantly
more calories than that.

> there is no bias but simply an acknowledgement on
> my end that there is no "one size fits all" diet.
> Again, there are far too many variables to
> consider, some of which I've shared with you.

According to MacDougall, yes, there is. I agree with
him on most points. He does not push raw because he
understands that most people can't adhere to it. If
the only way you can be raw is to make it high fat,
then you you may be better off incorporating modest
quantities of cooked starches (sweet potato and winter
squash are best) and cooked beans.

I will defer to his judgement, but for myself I do the
cooked beans thing. There is far more evidence suggesting
that cooked beans promote longevity than uncooked coconut oil.
There is zero evidence for uncooked coconut oil, in fact.

When you provide such evidence, I will be happy to eat my
entire straw hat collection.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2015 03:59AM by arugula.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2.) Raw, extra-virgin coconut oil contains
> [different saturated fats than animal foods.

[en.wikipedia.org]

Food _________ Lauric acid | Myristic acid | Palmitic acid | Stearic acid
Coconut oil 47% 18% 9% 3%
Butter 3% 11% 29% 13%
Ground beef 0% 4% 26% 15%
Salmon 0% 1% 29% 3%
Egg yolks 0% 0.3% 27% 10%

"Since you are not in the habit of reading full papers,
I will kindly overlook this statement and attribute it
to the Dunning-Kruger effect."

Go ahead

"Explain then why it is reversed when the nonessential
fat component of the diet is removed."

Because the types of fats that cause heart disease are highly inflammatory, so when you remove their highly inflammatory effects, you remove the cause.

"You are going out on a limb as you tend to do. This
does not provide for a solid foundation on which to
build one's life."

"You are suggesting that the solution to a high fat
diet is to add more fat to get the balance acceptable."

You're the one who seems to be going out on a limb as everything you believe about fat is an unfounded assumption based on an inability to distinguish. You simply cannot show any established literature proving any detrimental effects of a high-fat, raw, plant-based diet with healthy omega-3 to omega-6 ratios. The science is very clear and the overwhelming amount of evidence proves the heart healthy benefits of omega-3's (FAT).

I'm not at all suggesting the solution to a high-fat diet is to add more fat, it's to replace unhealthy fats (cooked, processed, etc.) with raw, plant-based fats and to maintain a healthy omega-3 to omega-6 ratio. There is also no established definition of what "high-fat" is, but again, doesn't matter anyways because fat in general doesn't cause heart disease.

"According to MacDougall, yes, there is."

Hopefully he catches up someday.

"When you provide such evidence, I will be happy to eat my
entire straw hat collection."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "The health benefits of the Mediterranean diet can be largely ascribed to the nutraceutical properties of extra-virgin olive oil (EVOO). Mono-unsaturated fatty acids and various phenolic compounds, such as oleocanthal, oleuropein, hydroxytyrosol, and tyrosol, are the main nutraceutical substances of EVOO. These substances have been suggested to have the ability to modulate aging-associated processes. In experimental models, it has been shown that EVOO with high concentrations of polyphenols has anti-inflammatory and anti-oxidant properties. Indeed, it was observed that hydroxytyrosol and oleocanthal inhibit the cyclooxygenases (COX-1 and -2) responsible for prostaglandin production; oleuropein is a radical scavenger that blocks the oxidation of low-density lipoproteins".

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "Extra virgin olive oil (EVOO) consumption has been traditionally related to a higher longevity in the human population. EVOO effects on health are often attributed to its unique mixture of phenolic compounds with tyrosol and hydroxityrosol being the most biologically active....Together, our results point to hormesis as a possible mechanism to explain the effects of tyrosol on longevity in C. elegans."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "EVOO secoiridoids, which provide an effective defense against plant attack by herbivores and pathogens, are bona fide xenohormetins that are able to activate the gerosuppressor AMPK and trigger numerous resveratrol-like anti-aging transcriptomic signatures. As such, EVOO secoiridoids constitute a new family of plant-produced gerosuppressant agents that molecularly "repair" the aimless (and harmful) AMPK/mTOR-driven quasi-program that leads to aging and aging-related diseases, including cancer."

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jtprindl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 2.) Raw, extra-virgin coconut oil contains
> > Coconut oil 47% 18% 9% 3%
> Butter 3% 11% 29% 13%
> Ground beef 0% 4% 26% 15%
> Salmon 0% 1% 29% 3%
> Egg yolks 0% 0.3% 27% 10%


This doesn't support your argument - the predominant saturated fats in animal products are palmitic and stearic acid, which are found in small quantities in coconut oil. Furthermore, they contain zero to very small amounts of lauric acid and myristic acid.

Also, breast milk is more than 50% saturated fat (primarily lauric acid).

[www.nature.com]

Please do not reply unless you have read the entire article.

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [www.nature.com]
> 1393a.html
>
> Please do not reply unless you have read the
> entire article.


That article literally has zero relevance to this discussion and did not distinguish any of the points I've been referring to (raw plant-based fats & healthy omega-3 to omega-6 ratios). It certainly didn't come anywhere near a replacement for responding to my responses, either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2015 04:56AM by jtprindl.

I have read that eating a few tablespoons a day for a month will cure viral illnesses. Though can't remember how long it said to do it for...and also my.mother said if u eat a tablesppoon a day then u won't get the flu.

What I wonder is how well it helps skin conditions that don't seem to go away ...and if u eat a it for a awhile if it gets rid of herpes from your body

jtprindl: from reading these posts it is obvious that various folks haven't come across some of the literature we both read over the time. Never mind, they are entitled to their view no matter how narrow it does seem.

Lets not forget various papers mentioning possible conflict of interests with the low fat research from the powerful drug and food industry lobbying. The drug industries knew many populations had high saturated fat diets and somehow claimed the association to high cholesterol was deadly and caused heart disease, and the drug companies knew all they had to do was put the average person on drugs to bring down cholesterol and fats. Then there was the dubious food industry selling countless low fat foods to a public who bought into this low fat craze.

People also switched from saturated fat to more plant based fats, but it certainly has not eliminated the rampant heart disease or cancer. People get on cholesterol lowering drugs, but heart disease is still rampant. People are eating low fat these days but heart disease and cancer are still rampant. Heart disease seems to be more rampant than ever, yet many buy low fat products from the supermarkets. People may want to listen to Dr Stephen Sinatra, he is more up with the research than many.

It might be time people started reading ALL the research for and against high and low fat diets, opened their eyes and woke up. Some posts make some good points, but they are still only limited points that don't take into account various things to make them all conclusive.

Good posts jtprindl. We have a case of eyes wide open v's eyes wide shut.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2015 10:21AM by The Sproutarian Man.

1 Panchito wrote:

Quote

1 Saturated fat causes inflamation

2 coconut oil is 92% Saturated fat

3 Therefore, coconut oil causes inflamation

4 inflamation causes heart disease

5 Therefore, coconut oil causes heart disease by causing inflamation

2 jtprindl replied:

Quote

1.) Cooked saturated fat and animal-based saturated fat causes inflammation.
2.) Raw, extra-virgin coconut oil contains different saturated fats than animal foods.
3.) Therefore, concluding that coconut oil causes inflammation is illogical.

3 Panchito replied to 2) above:

Quote

Food _________ Lauric acid | Myristic acid | Palmitic acid | Stearic acid
Coconut oil 47% 18% 9% 3%
Butter 3% 11% 29% 13%
Ground beef 0% 4% 26% 15%
Salmon 0% 1% 29% 3%
Egg yolks 0% 0.3% 27% 10%

4jtprindl replied:

Quote

This doesn't support your argument - the predominant saturated fats in animal products are palmitic and stearic acid, which are found in small quantities in coconut oil.

jtprindl, I was no supporting my original argument 1 because you started your own different arguments 2 without logically anwering 1. I was correcting your argument 2. You wrote that saturated fats from animals were different. I showed you that is not the case. Samon has the same stearic acid % as coconut. As you can see from the numbers, coconut oil exceeds on animal products on total saturated fats. Therefore, your point 2) in 2 was wrong and your logic misguided. Example of your logic. You say that half a table spoon of butter is not bad because it does not contains the same saturated fats as one whole spoon. That is ridiculous.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2015 03:37PM by Panchito.

arugulu wrote:
"The ultra-long lived population on this planet--the Okinawans--got nearly 90% of their calories from carbohydrate."

Eat Fat, Live Long—the Real Food of Okinawa

You may have heard about the longevity and health of the Okinawan people. According to records kept by the Japanese since 1879, the people of Okinawa just may be the longest-lived people in the world, often staying healthy and active into their nineties, or even longer.

Many have claimed that this longevity and health is due to a low-fat, meat-free, high-vegetable diet. Being skeptical of such claims, I researched traditional Okinawan cooking and traditions.

My skepticism was justified, as it usually is. The long-lived, healthy people of Okinawa eat a diet that is heavily based on meat. Mostly pork. Mostly fat pork. The main cooking fat is pork lard. Many foods are fried in pork lard. The Okinawans traditionally do not rely on doctors when they get ill, but on food-based remedies consisting of—pork organs. In fact, pork is so vital to Okinawan culture that Okinawans often refer to their land as the “Island of Pork.”

The real lesson of Okinawan longevity is “Eat fat, live long.”
The Real Food of Okinawa

Okinawan cuisine is centered around meat. The most important meat is pork. The Okinawans have a saying, that they use every part of the pig except for the toenails and the squeal. Many of the pork parts eaten are composed almost entirely of fat, such as pork skin, pig ears, and pork belly. All the internal organs of the pig are regularly eaten, such as the liver, kidneys, stomach, and intestines, which are also full of fat. Pork lard is the fat of choice for cooking, and many foods are deep fried in pork lard. Every other part of the pig is also eaten, including more familiar parts like spareribs, pork shoulder, and pork loin. The skin is usually left on and eaten whenever possible.

Goat is also favored by Okinawans, though pork is far more common. What is interesting is that much of this goat meat is eaten raw, and there are restaurants that specialize in the preparation of raw goat meat.

Traditionally, the Okinawans ate very little grain, which used to be sold to pay taxes. Sweet potatoes are a common and favorite food, as are cabbages, carrots, and other vegetables. Vegetables are always cooked, often fried in pork lard.

The Okinawans do eat tofu, but the tofu they eat is different. It is made differently from the rest of the tofu in the world, and is often naturally fermented for several months. Unfermented tofu is often deep fried in pork lard. One of the most common Okinawan dishes is a stir fry made out of pork, vegetables, and tofu, fried in pork lard. It is possible that the protective factors in the pork lard prevent the harm that often occurs from eating soy.

Miso, another fermented soy product, is also used as a seasoning.

Okinawans do not eat that much seafood, which is surprising given that Okinawa is a relatively small island. The explanation is that Okinawa has a tropical climate, and fish spoil very quickly. The island has very rugged terrain, which made it difficult to transport fish before they spoiled. Fish are fermented and made into sausages, which form a small, but important part of the diet.

Most Okinawans do not eat western-style processed and refined foods, though a small amount of brown sugar is used in cooking.
Okinawan Healing with Food

Traditionally, Okinawans had no medical doctors, but relied on food to heal themselves. This system was based on the organs of animals, usually pigs, but often goats. The traditional belief was that disease was caused by an imbalance in an organ, and the imbalance could be corrected by eating the corresponding part of an animal. Someone with breathing difficulty would eat the lungs of a pig. Somebody with a hearing problem would eat the ears. Someone with a digestive problem would eat the stomach of a pig, and/or the kidneys, and so on.

This system is not unique to Okinawa. It was followed by many traditional peoples, including the Native Americans, and by many Western M.D.s before prescription drugs became the remedy of choice.

This system worked so well that many Okinawans still follow this tradition, and do not seek medical help. This may actually contribute to their longevity, because the side effects of the drugs and surgeries used by modern medicine cause the death of many people.

"jtprindl, I was no supporting my original argument 1 because you started your own different arguments 2 without logically anwering 1. I was correcting your argument 2. You wrote that saturated fats from animals were different. I showed you that is not the case. Samon has the same stearic acid % as coconut. As you can see from the numbers, coconut oil exceeds on animal products on total saturated fats. Therefore, your point 2) in 2 was wrong and your logic misguided. Example of your logic. You say that half a table spoon of butter is not bad because it does not contains the same saturated fats as one whole spoon. That is ridiculous."


I didn't start any new arguments, I pointed out the flaws in your logic of saying coconut oil causes inflammation and therefore heart disease simply because it has saturated fat. The saturated fat content of coconut oil and animal products are vastly different, so even though coconut oil may have more total saturated fat, it is still primarily about 50% lauric acid, which is a medium-chain fatty acid. Lauric acid is the main saturated fat found in breast milk and does NOT have the same detrimental effects as those found in animal products. You are making the same mistake arugula is making and that is you are failing to distinguish.

Dietary intake of saturated fat by food source and incident cardiovascular disease: the Multi-Ethnic Study of Atherosclerosis - "Although dietary recommendations have focused on restricting saturated fat (SF) consumption to reduce cardiovascular disease (CVD) risk, evidence from prospective studies has not supported a strong link between total SF intake and CVD events... A higher intake of dairy SF was associated with LOWER CVD risk. In contrast, a higher intake of meat SF was associated with GREATER CVD risk. The substitution of 2% of energy from meat SF with energy from dairy SF was associated with a 25% lower CVD risk. No associations were observed plant or butter SF and CVD risk". - [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]


[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "Feeding of MCT to rats resulted in animals of low body weight, small fat deposits and excellent survival rate. This deserves emphasis because of the beneficial influence of low body weight on aging and arteriosclerosis. MCT feeding was associated with low linoleate and low tocopherol requirements in rats. This may lead to reduced formation of those linoleate derived prostaglandins which favor thrombosis formation. Lower linoleate requirements may also lead to the presence of fewer uncontrolled free radicals in the cells. MCT feeding is associated with low levels of serum and liver cholesterol involving speculations that tissue conditions are such that an adaptive increase of cholesterol is unnecessary. The Demographic Yearbook of the United Nations (1978) reported that Sri Lanka has the lowest death rate from ischemic heart disease. Sri Lanka is the only of the countries giving reliable data where coconut oil (containing over 50% medium chain fatty acids) is the main dietary fat."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "In conclusion, despite equivocal effects on homocysteine levels, consumption of a functional oil composed of MCT, phytosterols, and n-3 fatty acids for 27 days improves the overall cardiovascular risk profile of overweight women."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "Experimental studies demonstrate that dietary MCFAs/MCTs suppress fat deposition through enhanced thermogenesis and fat oxidation in animal and human subjects. Additionally, several reports suggest that MCFAs/MCTs offer the therapeutic advantage of preserving insulin sensitivity in animal models and patients with type 2 diabetes."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "Therapy with medium-chain FAs, which do not require CD36-facilitated transport, has been shown to improve cardiac function and hypertrophy in SHRs despite persistent hypertension... Furthermore, MCT intake caused an inhibition of JNK activation in SHR hearts. Collectively, the observed changes in the myocardial activity of metabolic enzymes and signaling pathways may contribute to the improved cardiac dysfunction and hypertrophy in SHRs following MCT therapy."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "These findings suggest that medium-chain triglyceride application to spontaneously hypertensive rats improves decreased cardiac function and cardiac hypertrophy without affecting blood pressure and myocardial mRNA expression of molecular markers."

So who pissed the farthest so far?

jtprindl, coconut oil has PALMITIC ACID. That alone is bad news. Coconut oil has a third (9% vs 29%)of the same palmitic acid found in animal fats like butter, ground beef, salmond, and egg yolks. That is a significant ammount. Thus, coconut oil has the same dangerous fats found in animal fats. Therefore, your logic in 2 is wrong because you said they don't have the same fats. THEY DO. Actually, coconut oil is what labs used to make animals sick with cardiovascular disease. They dont usse butter. They use coconut oil because it is much faster and creates more damage.

Are you implying that smoking a third of a cigarette a day instead of a whole one is healthy because they don't have the same amounts?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2015 05:22PM by Panchito.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jtprindl, coconut oil has PALMITIC ACID. That
> alone is bad news. Coconut oil has a third of the
> same palmitic acid found in animal fats like
> butter, ground beef, salmond, and egg yolks. That
> is a significant ammount. Thus coconut oil has the
> same dangerous fats that are found in animal fats.
>
>
> Are you implying that smoking a third of a
> cigarette a day instead of a whole one is healthy
> because they don't have the same amounts?


Again, you are failing to distinguish raw, extra-virgin coconut oil between cooked animal fats. Just because coconut oil contains a small amount (not significant at all) of palmitic acid in no way means that overall it is unhealthy. The majority of saturated fat in coconut oil are medium-chain triglycerides. Macadamia nuts also contain palmitic acid and have a myriad of health benefits. Obviously your notion that palmitic acid equals unhealthy is unfounded.

[en.wikipedia.org] - According to Wiki, macadamia nut oil is 19% palmitic acid, yet it proves good for the heart in various studies.

[jn.nutrition.org] - "Importantly, our data demonstrate that macadamia nuts can be part of the portfolio of nuts to recommend for inclusion in a heart healthy diet."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "In conclusion, macadamia oil supplementation attenuated inflammation and adipocyte hypertrophy in obese mice."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "Thus, macadamia nuts can be included in a heart-healthy dietary pattern that reduces lipid/lipoprotein CVD risk factors. Nuts as an isocaloric substitute for high SFA foods increase the proportion of unsaturated fatty acids and decrease SFA, thereby lowering CVD risk."


"Are you implying that smoking a third of a cigarette a day instead of a whole one is healthy because they don't have the same amounts?"

No, I'm implying that it's important to distinguish very important details and look at the overall content of coconut oil rather than one tiny part of it, which has never been proven to cause any health detriments anyways. Quite the opposite, actually, as I've already demonstrated with plenty of studies.

Oil is a processed food. A good diet eliminates all the processed food stuffs, including coconut oil. Only wholesome foods are healthy. If we extract a single substance from a food, then it is not a food anymore.

Vitality Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oil is a processed food. A good diet eliminates
> all the processed food stuffs, including coconut
> oil. Only wholesome foods are healthy. If we
> extract a single substance from a food, then it is
> not a food anymore.


You're entitled to your opinion.

I'm shocked that humans could live and survive on this planet for millions of years and evolve the ability to create something like the scientific method without thirty measly years of modern western science explaining the one and only proper diet for the billions upon billions of humans which have ever existed. How did we not just kick over and die without our perfect ratio of fats to veggies? One diet for billions of people over millions of years explained using thirty years of feeding rats lard. Fantastic , I say.



If I had a time machine I'd love to be one of the small mammals present when whales returned to sea and evolved to have the most sophisticated and advanced brain on the planet. " no dude don't eat all that krill and plankton, we will all die out. I'm staying on land"

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Panchito Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > jtprindl,
> >
> > 1 Saturated fat causes inflamation
> >
> > 2 coconut oil is 92% Saturated fat
> >
> > 3 Therefore, coconut oil causes inflamation
> >
> > 4 inflamation causes heart disease
> >
> > 5 Therefore, coconut oil causes heart disease
> by
> > causing inflamation
>
>
> 1.) Cooked saturated fat and animal-based
> saturated fat causes inflammation.
> 2.) Raw, extra-virgin coconut oil contains
> different saturated fats than animal foods.
> 3.) Therefore, concluding that coconut oil causes
> inflammation is illogical.
>
>
> [articles.mercola.com]
> /2010/10/22/coconut-oil-and-saturated-fats-can-mak
> e-you-healthy.aspx - "If one form of saturated fat
> is bad for you, the argument goes, then all
> saturated fat must be bad. Right? Nothing could be
> further from the truth!...."

Quoting Mercola, zzz. He is a quack. There is actually a diet that fits all humans. It is our natural diet which is a vegan diet. But I believe there is a therapeutic value to cut out carbohydrate for short periods of time. There is a therapeutic value in cutting out protein as well, but that doesn't mean we shouldnt consume protein.

The fuel of man is carbohydrate. That is our energy. Aminos we need for building our bodies and we need a little fat for building and storing. The human machine converts everything we eat into sugar, and eliminating sugar means that the body must convert something into sugar (which drains more energy than eating sugar). The bliss of ketosis is not desirable at all. And oil contains no nutrients besides fat. If we are to eat the perfect diet, oil must be exluded from the diet because, if we eat oil, we must either increase our caloric intake (because we dont want to replace wholesome foods containing all of their micronutrients, phytochemicals etc with oil) or we must eat less. Using oil in the diet is a lose-lose anyhow. It's empty calories, nothing else. And we have no essential need for consuming large quantities of fat, so commonly claimed by those atkins fanatics. Fat as energy is not more effective energy source than carbohydrate, actually the opposite is true. Oil and sugar is equally bad.

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> arugulu wrote:
> "The ultra-long lived population on this
> planet--the Okinawans--got nearly 90% of their
> calories from carbohydrate."
>
> Eat Fat, Live Long—the Real Food of Okinawa
>
> You may have heard about the longevity and health
> of the Okinawan people. According to records kept
> by the Japanese since 1879, the people of Okinawa
> just may be the longest-lived people in the world,
> often staying healthy and active into their
> nineties, or even longer.
>
> Many have claimed that this longevity and health
> is due to a low-fat, meat-free, high-vegetable
> diet. Being skeptical of such claims, I researched
> traditional Okinawan cooking and traditions.
>
> My skepticism was justified, as it usually is. The
> long-lived, healthy people of Okinawa eat a diet
> that is heavily based on meat. Mostly pork. Mostly
> fat pork. The main cooking fat is pork lard. Many
> foods are fried in pork lard. The Okinawans
> traditionally do not rely on doctors when they get
> ill, but on food-based remedies consisting
> of—pork organs. In fact, pork is so vital to
> Okinawan culture that Okinawans often refer to
> their land as the “Island of Pork.”
>
> The real lesson of Okinawan longevity is “Eat
> fat, live long.”
> The Real Food of Okinawa
>
> Okinawan cuisine is centered around meat. The most
> important meat is pork. The Okinawans have a
> saying, that they use every part of the pig except
> for the toenails and the squeal. Many of the pork
> parts eaten are composed almost entirely of fat,
> such as pork skin, pig ears, and pork belly. All
> the internal organs of the pig are regularly
> eaten, such as the liver, kidneys, stomach, and
> intestines, which are also full of fat. Pork lard
> is the fat of choice for cooking, and many foods
> are deep fried in pork lard. Every other part of
> the pig is also eaten, including more familiar
> parts like spareribs, pork shoulder, and pork
> loin. The skin is usually left on and eaten
> whenever possible.
>
> Goat is also favored by Okinawans, though pork is
> far more common. What is interesting is that much
> of this goat meat is eaten raw, and there are
> restaurants that specialize in the preparation of
> raw goat meat.
>
> Traditionally, the Okinawans ate very little
> grain, which used to be sold to pay taxes. Sweet
> potatoes are a common and favorite food, as are
> cabbages, carrots, and other vegetables.
> Vegetables are always cooked, often fried in pork
> lard.
>
> The Okinawans do eat tofu, but the tofu they eat
> is different. It is made differently from the rest
> of the tofu in the world, and is often naturally
> fermented for several months. Unfermented tofu is
> often deep fried in pork lard. One of the most
> common Okinawan dishes is a stir fry made out of
> pork, vegetables, and tofu, fried in pork lard. It
> is possible that the protective factors in the
> pork lard prevent the harm that often occurs from
> eating soy.
>
> Miso, another fermented soy product, is also used
> as a seasoning.
>
> Okinawans do not eat that much seafood, which is
> surprising given that Okinawa is a relatively
> small island. The explanation is that Okinawa has
> a tropical climate, and fish spoil very quickly.
> The island has very rugged terrain, which made it
> difficult to transport fish before they spoiled.
> Fish are fermented and made into sausages, which
> form a small, but important part of the diet.
>
> Most Okinawans do not eat western-style processed
> and refined foods, though a small amount of brown
> sugar is used in cooking.
> Okinawan Healing with Food
>
> Traditionally, Okinawans had no medical doctors,
> but relied on food to heal themselves. This system
> was based on the organs of animals, usually pigs,
> but often goats. The traditional belief was that
> disease was caused by an imbalance in an organ,
> and the imbalance could be corrected by eating the
> corresponding part of an animal. Someone with
> breathing difficulty would eat the lungs of a pig.
> Somebody with a hearing problem would eat the
> ears. Someone with a digestive problem would eat
> the stomach of a pig, and/or the kidneys, and so
> on.
>
> This system is not unique to Okinawa. It was
> followed by many traditional peoples, including
> the Native Americans, and by many Western M.D.s
> before prescription drugs became the remedy of
> choice.
>
> This system worked so well that many Okinawans
> still follow this tradition, and do not seek
> medical help. This may actually contribute to
> their longevity, because the side effects of the
> drugs and surgeries used by modern medicine cause
> the death of many people.


The okinawan diet is not centered around pork lol. They eat very low quantities of flesh food and used to eat mutton once or twice a year. is that a meat based diet you think? Their diet is 90% of plant foods. LOW-FAT plant foods. Sweet potato is their staple food. Its the most important article in their diet.

jtprindl, I don't know if you are aware that you keep introducing new different arguments without defending your previous one.

jtprindl wrote:

Quote

2.) Raw, extra-virgin coconut oil contains different saturated fats than animal foods.

I answered it and demonstrated that they have the same damaging fats. But you now jump to another new argument.

jtprindl wrote:

Quote

Again, you are failing to distinguish raw, extra-virgin coconut oil between cooked animal fats.

Your answers always introduce a new argument different than the previous one. They dont answer anything. Thus, you abandon your previous claims and keep systematicaly making new future claims without defending the old ones endlessly, and thinkning that it is logical. You need to go a school to learn logic. There would be no difference if I answered you again because you would be making new fresh claims avoiding the previous ones endlessly. I'll have to figure out if there is a psychological name for that strategy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2015 07:04PM by Panchito.

Vitality wrote:
"Only wholesome foods are healthy. If we extract a single substance from a food, then it is not a food anymore."

The American Indians survived for tens of thousands of years on 70% plant foods which they highly processed to be able to eat them such as acorns. Your simplistic blanket statements are rubbish at best. Of course you're probably one of those who will discredit ginseng, reishi mushrooms etc.

Vitality Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is
> actually a diet that fits all humans. It is our
> natural diet which is a vegan diet.


I wish l could agree, but at this point of time we see many people trying vegan diets who end up failing, especially raw vegan N.H diets. If the rumours are correct, Durian Rider was supposed to have said over 99% of people on the 30BAD board fell off the wagon. Besides, the countless blogs are full of stories of people failing to thrive on the vegan diet. So sad.

www.thesproutarian.com

"Your answers always introduce a new argument different than the previous one. They dont answer anything. Thus, you abandon your previous claims and keep systematicaly making new future claims without defending the old ones endlessly, and thinkning that it is logical. You need to go a school to learn logic. There would be no difference if I answered you again because you would be making new fresh claims avoiding the previous ones endlessly. I'll have to figure out if there is a psychological name for that strategy."


I have not introduced one new argument - you are either making things up or lack the ability to logically follow along. The majority of fats contained within coconut oil are NOT the same (MCT's) fats found in animal products, and on top of that, they are RAW. Yes, coconut oil contains a small quantity of palmitic acid, so what? That fact alone doesn't make coconut oil unhealthy or inflammatory, it's merely one component. I demonstrated with the macadamia nut studies that your logic on condemning coconut oil to be unhealthy based upon its palmitic acid content was faulty because macadamia nuts contain more palmitic acid and have lots of health benefits. Therefore, palmitic acid alone doesn't make something unhealthy.

Also, your apparent obsession with psychological conditions (many of which are simply hypothesis' and not actually proven) leads me to believe that you are subconsciously searching for an answer to some sort of psychological condition that you have.