arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I see nothing wrong with that.

I don't care what they do either unless they are using their youthful appearance as evidence their diet and lifestyle is responsible, in that case I think it's an unethical deception without full disclosure. The same goes for photoshopping appearances. IMO.



> There is another guy who is decades younger who
> also seems
> to be going that route.

The "Liferegenerator" ? Wouldn't surprise me. He has a major all consuming thing about his own skin so I doubt he would spare ANY expense to repair what may have happened to it in his time living in the desert. That kind of Southern UV light damage usually surprises northerners who are used to staying out all day without getting deep fried up north. To me Marcus Rothkranz seems to be avoiding those problems with his higher caliber diet's protection. But I don't know.


>
> Personally I think it's kind of cool that guys are
> doing
> this. If they were more open about it, there would
> not be
> such a stigma.

Hey, if you're into that sort of thing go for it.

Hope they don't end up looking like they are made out of wax like those expressionless stars in Hollywood. Creepy.

SueZ Wrote:

> I don't care what they do either unless they are
> using their youthful appearance as evidence their
> diet and lifestyle is responsible,

That's the problem. It's deceptive to give credit
to the diet when they are doing these other things.

>
> > There is another guy who is decades younger who
> > also seems
> > to be going that route.
>
> The "Liferegenerator" ? Wouldn't surprise me. He
> has a major all consuming thing about his own skin
> so I doubt he would spare ANY expense to repair
> what may have happened to it in his time living in
> the desert.

No, not him. It is one of the more ethical ones.

>That kind of Southern UV light damage
> usually surprises northerners who are used to
> staying out all day without getting deep fried up
> north. To me Marcus Rothkranz seems to be avoiding
> those problems with his higher caliber diet's
> protection. But I don't know.
>

Yes, I worry about the ones in the South USA and
in Australia the most. They mean well but then they
start looking prematurely old and people blame
their diets. But in these cases, it's not their
diets, either.

They'd look even worse without their diets.

Marcus is probably getting filler and botox. He does
everything else: highlights, teeth, and so on. Why
draw a line?

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> No, not him. It is one of the more ethical ones.


Ok, got it.



> Marcus is probably getting filler and botox. He
> does
> everything else: highlights, teeth, and so on.
> Why
> draw a line?

I don't know but all his skin in his outdoor sunlit videos looks great to me - not just his face. He sure isn't hiding from the sun, either. I've never seen him in person, though. And I'm sure he knows all the theatric tricks I have no idea about that could come into play but I've never seen him look older in any of the videos others have taken of him where he has not been in control of the production.

SueZ, I feel the same about the Kangen, In fact, I talked to the manufacturers about the whole issue once. Kangen is approved in Japan for true hyperacid stomachs. Makes sense, right? I don't judge Kangen though, because I have met SAD eaters that use Kangen (not before meals, though) to their benefit. Could the Kangen have anything to do with Lou's eyes being cloudy? I only met him a few years ago or so.

REgarding all this talk about Lou having work done, I want to put it to rest.
Lou does a lot of stretching and this can account for his neck. IT's just like some athletes have wrinkly wrists, if they do a lot of pushups or something. Up close, Lou's face is not perfect. He is very photogenic. The camera makes it look like work was done, but up close, you can see that his face is normal. There are parts around his eyes that reveal his age. But his skin is gorgeous and yes it's from diet, just like Tonya Zavasta. Even if Tonya is getting some work done on her face, you raw foodists have to know how amazing the right raw food is for skin. I know that and I am not all raw.

YEs, SueZ, Lou might pluck some white hairs out, but he doesn't dye his hair. In Chinese medicine his white hairs are forming roughly on the gallbladder meridian behind the ears, from my memory (over a year old).

People are speculating that Lou has had work done, but they are not paying attention to how amazing this man is. I have been to his food class. Aside from the high fat, his food is amazing. Talk about blood circulation...he himself puts a whole habanero into his juicer with his 40 ouncer every morning. Also, rebounding is very unique in its healing ability. Lou is unique compared to other raw foodists and people are not taking that into consideration, especially his equanamity. I don't agree with everything he consumes or recommends, but I agree with Dan McDonald that he is very inspiring.

Lou has better posture than Brian Clement and Lou does more posture work than Brian. Brian lifts weights. Lou does not eat algaes and spirulina and Brian does. Brian takes more supplements, like silica and has thicker and lusher hair than Lou. The one thing they both have in common is having a lower fruit diet. Lou eats more fruit than Brian, though, and I think it may play a part in Brian's spine (and posture weakness). Robert Morse did a lot with people's spines with fruit via cleaning the lymphatic system. Yes fruit cannot remineralize the spine, but it can help the lymphatic system and nerves. And when we look at FRKristina's eyes and Mango the fruitarian's eyes, I think higher amounts of healing fruit can play a role in eye health. Yet, Mango taught us very well how certain fruit in certain quantities will make you lose your teeth. I might try Lou's diet with less fat (just do sesame, chia, poppy, flax and coconut and forgo the nuts) and see what happens and add sprout and microgreen juice. THe fruit is amazing where i live.

Lou Corona very interesting. [puradyme.com] I will try it.

Kangen water also contains highly toxic hydroxides that aren't buffered. Not good.

I have about 90 pages of science and writing on alkaline water and diet and the body, and one day l will do a proper write-up, but been too overwhelmed to do it because it will take months to write properly and reference. It is a tough topic to write and make things flow properly so l have been putting it off. It is like a jigsaw puzzle that needs to be put in order and it blows me out to much to attempt it. One day it will happen, hopefully.

Arugula wrote:
I can see that he has some loss of bony mass at the eye sockets and chin/jaw.

Tai:
Is that something that can be avoided or healed by diet?

Tai,

Yes, I think a good diet can help a lot. It's related to osteoporosis, you have seen how some older people get hunchbacked--it's because they have lost a lot of bone. They are eating horribly and not exercising, etc. I work with a guy who is 65 and he has a severe case. But he looks like he does not care at all about taking care of himself.

If you do those things right, you will probably lose less bone.

Here is what it typically looks like if you age normally:



These things will still happen on a good raw diet, but they will happen more slowly if there are no deficiencies, protein and calcium intakes are ok, lots of f+v are eaten, weight-bearing exercise is done, etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2015 02:34AM by arugula.

It seems as if people are being extremely nitpicky when making comments about Lou Corona. Raw food doesn't make one immortal, let's stop acting like it's a huge surprise that someone in their mid-60's shows some signs of aging. I would be willing to bet that he looks better than anyone on this forum who is anywhere near his age range, but of course the people criticizing him are the same folks who wouldn't dare show their face/body. I think many people are insecure about their own looks and make themselves feel better by "criticizing" others.

Also, calcium is only one component of building and maintaining strong bones, just as important are magnesium, D3, silica, boron, and K2.

Not at all, just kind of morbidly fascinated with the aging process and how much food can do to slow it down.

I am pretty happy with my looks. I will be happy to show people my pics if they are nice to me.

Arugula wrote:
These things will still happen on a good raw diet, but they will happen more slowly if there are no deficiencies, protein and calcium intakes are ok, lots of f+v are eaten, weight-bearing exercise is done, etc.

Tai:
yes, TSM and I agree that nuts don't give enough minerals, that's why he and I both are into the nutritious seeds like poppy and sesame for calcium. Lou's coconut almond yogurt is nice, but doesn't have the mineral density ideal for such high calories. It's also not high in protein either. He does add tocotrienols to his smoothies.

Thanks Arugula. It makes sense.

In your opinion, how does fruit play a role in preventing/treating osteoporosis? What's your critique of Brian Clement? Do you think his spine relates to osteoporosis?

Tai,

I hadn't noticed that Brian Clement had a curved spine. I did notice that he does not exercise. Weight-bearing exercise is important for bone health. There's no way around it.

I think fruit is good for bones, provided that calcium and protein intakes are adequate. Some people are afraid of fruit but fruit is a good choice because it doesn't need to be cooked, it has fiber, it has protective phytochemicals, and it isn't junk. It is probably helping the body to maintain a net positive calcium balance.

In this study, for each increase of 100 g/kcal total fruit intake there was an associated 4.5% and 6.4% increase in bone mineral density for people over 65 in Hong Kong.
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

It's also necessary to exercise.

"I did notice that he does not exercise. Weight-bearing exercise is important for bone health. There's no way around it."

Brian Clement has said that he's gotten his bone density tested and was told his bone density resembles that of a college football player. I think Brian engages in quite a fair amount of weight-bearing exercise.

I am going by what he looks like, not what he says. He might do a little. I can't say if it's enough. He does not have Doug Graham's body and I think they are of similar ages.

The first person I would probably trust with anything strength or physique related in the raw food community is Peter Ragnar.

most people think that bones are made of minerals only like calcium. But 90% of the organic matrix of the bone is made out of collagen. A dietary component of collagen is lysine (essential amino acid) and vit C from fruit and vegs.

[en.wikipedia.org]

Quote

Bone is not a uniformly solid material, but is mostly a matrix. The primary tissue of bone, osseous tissue, is relatively hard and lightweight. Its matrix is mostly made up of a composite material incorporating the inorganic mineral calcium phosphate in the chemical arrangement termed calcium hydroxylapatite (this is the osseous tissue that gives bones their rigidity) and organic collagen, an elastic protein which improves fracture resistance.[3] Bone is formed by the hardening of this matrix around entrapped cells. When these cells become entrapped from osteoblasts they become osteocytes.

Bone is a metabolically active tissue composed of several types of cells. These cells include osteoblasts, which are involved in the creation and mineralization of bone tissue, osteocytes, and osteoclasts, which are involved in the reabsorption of bone tissue.

Curvature of the spine is more an issue of unconscious muscular contraction in the back, rather than a bone density issue. If you were to inject a person with a strong muscle relaxant, the true height would return as long as the drug were working.

[www.youtube.com]
Building Muscle on a High Raw, Vegan Diet with Peter Ragnar

Ragnar says he eats 1 cup of hemp seeds every morning as part of his breakfast.

Prana wrote:
Curvature of the spine is more an issue of unconscious muscular contraction in the back, rather than a bone density issue. If you were to inject a person with a strong muscle relaxant, the true height would return as long as the drug were working.

Tai:
Prana, that might be true in Brian's case, because I don't remember him with bad posture when I saw him in person.

In some cases of curved spines (kyphosis), it can be related to osteoporosis which can cause compression fractures of the vertebrae. In other words, the vertebrae collapse slowly over time from demineralization and form the curve. The vertebrae can get so porous that a simple sneeze or fall can cause the collapse of a vertebra.

Arugula wrote:
In this study, for each increase of 100 g/kcal total fruit intake there was an associated 4.5% and 6.4% increase in bone mineral density for people over 65 in Hong Kong.
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Tai:
Thanks for that stellar study. THat confirms everything RObert Morse is teaching and has done with fruit.

You are so kind to share these studies. Thanks again.

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> In this study, for each increase of 100 g/kcal
> total fruit intake there was an associated 4.5%
> and 6.4% increase in bone mineral density for
> people over 65 in Hong Kong.
> [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

The way I read it the study was just on one 100 gram increase of fruit. That would amount to but one orange or two lemons. The first given % increase of each set were for men and the second % increase of each set were for the women.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> arugula Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > In this study, for each increase of 100 g/kcal
> > total fruit intake there was an associated
> 4.5%
> > and 6.4% increase in bone mineral density for
> > people over 65 in Hong Kong.
> > [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
>
> The way I read it the study was just on one 100
> gram increase of fruit. That would amount to but
> one orange or two lemons. The first given %
> increase of each set were for men and the second %
> increase of each set were for the women.


"RESULTS:

Whole-body and femoral neck bone mineral density and content were significantly and positively associated with fruit intake in both men and women, even when adjustment for a range of potential confounders was made. A daily increase of 100 g/kcal total fruit intake was associated with 4.5% and 6.4% increase of BMD at whole body, and 3.9% and 4.8% increase at the femoral neck in men and women, respectively. No significant association was found between vegetable intake and bone mass. The adjustment for vitamin C intake, but not dietary acid load, attenuated the association between fruit intake and bone mass."

Am I missing something? If I am it's completely invisible to me.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> arugula Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > In this study, for each increase of 100 g/kcal
> > total fruit intake there was an associated
> 4.5%
> > and 6.4% increase in bone mineral density for
> > people over 65 in Hong Kong.
> > [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
>
> The way I read it the study was just on one 100
> gram increase of fruit. That would amount to but
> one orange or two lemons. The first given %
> increase of each set were for men and the second %
> increase of each set were for the women.

I just read the study again and came to the same conclusion I did yesterday. Do I have a blind spotI am unaware of or am I reading correctly?

Good questions Suez. I would like to hear a response too. The study is far from conclusive for raw vegan diets. And it wasn't "for each increase of 100 g/kcal total fruit" as written by arugula, it was “A daily increase of 100 g/kcal total fruit”. These two things can be completely different, and the study is too vague to know what to conclude.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2015 09:48PM by The Sproutarian Man.

I didn't understand what your question was.

But this is what they found in the study:

For each additional 100g of fruit (approx. 100 kcal)
over the typical consumption of 275 g/day for males and
247 g/day for females

male bmd increased 4.5%
female bmd increased 6.4%

p-values were lower for women than for men (of greater statistical significance).

no association for vegetables
(typical consumption 239-246g/day)

ignore, oops. Arugula clarified it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2015 09:55PM by Tai.

Interesting how vegetables were not associated with better bmd. I wonder what vegetables they were having and if they were raw or cooked and how anti nutrients might have come into play and various other things. I also wonder why fruit increased bmd.

"dietary acid load", hmmm.

www.thesproutarian.com

I don't think it's an indictment against veggies. The subjects were not eating as many veggies as fruits and there were smaller percentages of people with high intakes of veggies compared to fruits in the study. So they probably didn't have enough data to see any significant trends with the veggies.

Here is what they said about not finding associations with NEAP:

Our separate analysis did not find a significant
relation between dietary acid load and bone mineral parameters in
men and women, and adjustment of acid load level had little alteration
in the associations of F&V intakes and bone. Thus, the positive
association between fruit intake and bone in our participants
might not be related to a more alkaline environment from fruit
consumption.

The extent to which the dietary net acid load contributes to bone
mass is still unknown and findings are inconsistent. Our findings
were consistent with several observational studies that null associations
were observed between diet net acid load and bone measurement.
41,42

Although NEAP was significantly and negatively associated
with fruit intakes in our study, other nutrients
or food components, such as animal protein, cereals, and calcium, also
may affect acid balance.43

The negative association between dietary
acid load with bone also might be explained in part by decreased
excretion of metabolic acids due to the normal decline in renal
function with aging.44

In addition, the lack of association might
reflect the measurement error in dietary potassium or protein intake,
inherent in assessing diet acid load by FFQ.45


These are the refs:


41. Ginty FPC, Muniz-Terrera G, Mishra GD, et al. No evidence for a negative
association between bone mineral status and indirect estimates of renal net
acid excretion in adolescents. Proc Nutr Soc 2005;64:80A.

42. Wynn E, Lanham-New SA, Krieg MA, et al. Low estimates of dietary acid load
are positively associated with bone ultrasound in women older than 75 years
of age with a lifetime fracture. J Nutr 2008;138:1349e1354.

43. Gannon RH, Millward DJ, Brown JE, et al. Estimates of daily net endogenous
acid production in the elderly UK population: Analysis of the National Diet and
Nutrition Survey (NDNS) of British adults aged 65 years and over. Br J Nutr
2008;100:615e623.

44. Bushinsky DA. Acid-base imbalance and the skeleton. Eur J Nutr 2001;40:
238e244.

45. Smith-Warner SA, Elmer PJ, Fosdick L, et al. Reliability and comparability of three dietary assessment methods for estimating fruit and vegetable intakes.
Epidemiology 1997;8:196e201


Here is what they said about their lack of association w/ veggies:

The lack of association may
be due to the relatively small quantities and limited consumption
variability of vegetables in the present study. Vegetable intake is
possibly underestimated, because vegetables included in some composite
dishes may not be adequately accounted for. In addition, it is
well established that sodium intake accelerates calcium excretion.36
Vegetables are often consumed in cooked form with salt being
added in Chinese cuisine. Thus, the intake of sodium with vegetables
might offset the benefit of vegetables37 as compared with fruits,
which mainly are consumed fresh.


Furthermore, the typical cooking
practices for vegetables in Chinese elderly were stir-frying, boiling, or
steaming, which may lead to the substantial loss of water-soluble,
heat-sensitive, and oxygen-labile nutrients38 (vitamins C, K and so
forth) and further attenuate the association of dietary vegetables and
bone health.

These are indictments against cooking your veggies if you ask me.

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Our separate analysis did not find a significant
> relation between dietary acid load and bone
> mineral parameters in
> men and women, and adjustment of acid load level
> had little alteration
> in the associations of F&V intakes and bone. Thus,
> the positive
> association between fruit intake and bone in our
> participants
> might not be related to a more alkaline
> environment from fruit
> consumption.

fruits are acidic but they are not acidifying. Those are two different concepts. Acidic foods have low ph before eaten. While acidifying foods induce a low ph after. Fruits become alkaline after they pass the secretions of the pancreas. Meats are said to be acidifying because they produce acid in the body. Thus, they are said to be acid forming (acidifying).

[jn.nutrition.org]

Quote

Despite the benefits of protein to bone health, dietary protein has been shown to increase urinary calcium resulting from an increase in bone resorption (10). This calciuric effect of protein is the result of the increased acid load on the kidney created from the metabolism of amino acids, which is buffered by bone (11). The skeleton, along with being a labile reservoir of calcium, is a reservoir of alkaline salts of calcium, which provide a source of labile base that can be used to react to blood pH and plasma bicarbonate concentrations (12). Bone loss may be attributable, in part at least, to the life-long mobilization of skeletal salts to balance the endogenous acid generated from foods that are acid producing (13). Others have proposed that bone resorption is independent of the acid–base theory (14).

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2015 03:16AM by Panchito.

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Thus,
> the positive
> association between fruit intake and bone in our
> participants
> might not be related to a more alkaline
> environment from fruit
> consumption.


Nice. Various studies are now shedding light to question the old tales of the alkaline diet so many are fond of repeating over and over.

>
> The extent to which the dietary net acid load
> contributes to bone
> mass is still unknown and findings are
> inconsistent. Our findings
> were consistent with several observational studies
> that null associations
> were observed between diet net acid load and bone
> measurement.



Yes.


>
> The negative association between dietary
> acid load with bone also might be explained in
> part by decreased
> excretion of metabolic acids due to the normal
> decline in renal
> function with aging.44


Yes, that explains a lot and it is a view l hold also. It will likely be worse these days due to the high sodium processed diets and low potassium intakes.

>
> In addition, the lack of association might
> reflect the measurement error in dietary potassium
> or protein intake,
> inherent in assessing diet acid load by FFQ.45


Lots of complications when measuring acid load. Who decides what acids are included and what acids are excluded??


>
>
> These are the refs:
>
>
> 41. Ginty FPC, Muniz-Terrera G, Mishra GD, et al.
> No evidence for a negative
> association between bone mineral status and
> indirect estimates of renal net
> acid excretion in adolescents. Proc Nutr Soc
> 2005;64:80A.
>
> 42. Wynn E, Lanham-New SA, Krieg MA, et al. Low
> estimates of dietary acid load
> are positively associated with bone ultrasound in
> women older than 75 years
> of age with a lifetime fracture. J Nutr
> 2008;138:1349e1354.
>
> 43. Gannon RH, Millward DJ, Brown JE, et al.
> Estimates of daily net endogenous
> acid production in the elderly UK population:
> Analysis of the National Diet and
> Nutrition Survey (NDNS) of British adults aged 65
> years and over. Br J Nutr
> 2008;100:615e623.
>
> 44. Bushinsky DA. Acid-base imbalance and the
> skeleton. Eur J Nutr 2001;40:
> 238e244.
>
> 45. Smith-Warner SA, Elmer PJ, Fosdick L, et al.
> Reliability and comparability of three dietary
> assessment methods for estimating fruit and
> vegetable intakes.
> Epidemiology 1997;8:196e201
>
>
> Here is what they said about their lack of
> association w/ veggies:
>
> The lack of association may
> be due to the relatively small quantities and
> limited consumption
> variability of vegetables in the present study.
> Vegetable intake is
> possibly underestimated, because vegetables
> included in some composite
> dishes may not be adequately accounted for. In
> addition, it is
> well established that sodium intake accelerates
> calcium excretion.36
> Vegetables are often consumed in cooked form with
> salt being
> added in Chinese cuisine. Thus, the intake of
> sodium with vegetables
> might offset the benefit of vegetables37 as
> compared with fruits,
> which mainly are consumed fresh.
>
>
> Furthermore, the typical cooking
> practices for vegetables in Chinese elderly were
> stir-frying, boiling, or
> steaming, which may lead to the substantial loss
> of water-soluble,
> heat-sensitive, and oxygen-labile nutrients38
> (vitamins C, K and so
> forth) and further attenuate the association of
> dietary vegetables and
> bone health.
>
> These are indictments against cooking your veggies
> if you ask me.


I shall read all the refs (if l haven't read many already) with great interest.

Those are some great quotations in your post.

Wachman started the rot in 1968, and raw fooders have ben repeating the acid/alkaline idea over and over again.

www.thesproutarian.com