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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: fresh ()
Date: November 23, 2016 01:06AM

have you had any insights as to why what you call a high carb raw diet was causing you problems and not working for you and works for other people? what are the differences ?

Quote
kwan
Hello La Veronique!! THANK YOU! (How are you, friend?)
Your response broke the spell and opened my mind -- you are RIGHT. I shouldn't be so reticent to share my experience here; there are plenty of kindred spirits hungry (ha! -- literally!) for truth, in whatever form it will appear. But based on my past experience and mistakes here, I wanted to be careful not to go too far afield and alienate people. I realize, though, that ultimately we are all searching for the 'Holy Grail' of physical and spiritual nourishment. Always, we need to be asking: what is the ultimate purpose of our quest? Longevity? Well-being so that we can more easily pursue our spiritual quest? A path toward the ultimate goal of cosmic nourishment?
it has been, and I know it will CONTINUE TO BE, a wonderful and rewarding journey. and I will continue to check in here on the forum and share my experiences.
My 'raw' journey was so circuitous and fraught with twists and turns (despite almost 30 years of basically 'traditional' raw vegan). I knew I really WANTED to be raw vegan, but I had to find my own way. I can hardly believe that at my advanced age I am finally 'happy at last,' (lol!) and experiencing the 'paradaisical' state mentioned by Arnold Ehret in his books that I started reading and trying to follow in 1974. (Despite not following his advice to eat lots and lots of fruit.) What a long and strange journey. But it has been WORTH IT. :-))))))
Latest twist: Today I just acquired a new Breville juicer to replace my 'Juiceman' model, for free, no less! And I will be doing some low glycemic juices in the near future. I know that short water fasts and a continuation of the intermittent fasting that I've come to value so much, are also in my near future. (I haven't been doing IF lately, because we just MOVED to a new apt. in our building, and I felt more inclined to just go with the flow and eat whenever I felt I needed to while going through this process.)
But now I'm rambling...
I DO believe there is a future yet for the raw food movement. It just may need a slightly different slant.
LOVE AND BLESSINGS TO ALL.

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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: Panchito ()
Date: November 23, 2016 05:09PM

Quote
fresh
have you had any insights as to why what you call a high carb raw diet was causing you problems and not working for you and works for other people? what are the differences ?

If I had to guess, I would say that high carb raw vegan could cause glucose swings. The gut emits hormones along its way (non localized). It is the most active hormonal 'gland.' The glucose swings in turn can cause insulin swings where its lowest glucose level is dangerous and creates internal body panic (therad) as the brain and red blood cells life for example depend on glucose. High fat would create a mechanism for a more stable sugar release. Cooked foods life thick pasta, thick grains, etc., have a mechanically slower digestion with a milder sugar/insulin spike while providing enough calories. I do eat lots of fruits but there are differences between fruits. Fruit is just a label.





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2016 05:15PM by Panchito.

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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: fresh ()
Date: November 23, 2016 06:00PM

Could be true Panchito very interesting thanks

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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: jtprindl ()
Date: November 24, 2016 12:53PM

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fresh
good post as usual rawpracticalist


prindl,
the website is not valid on the bottom of your post.


>>>>
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jtprindl
There's no doubt about it that there are MANY raw vegans out there who think they are in fantastic health simply because they are eating raw. The enthusiasm is great, but it's important be well educated about diet and nutrition to be able to sustain the diet in a healthy manner over the long-term.


what schools do the polar bears, lions, and koalas go to? or where do they get their education?


>>>>Eating 80/10/10 is going to severely restrict your amino acid and fatty acid intake, which along with minerals is what the human body is made of. We are made of fat, protein, and minerals... and following a high-carb diet is a good way to become deficient in all of those. All of these are crucial for cognitive functioning, which may explain why many raw foodists are very defensive, judgmental, and confrontational when discussing diet.


I look forward to the proof of the above, a proof that you have never been able to provide, and keep repeating without evidence

do we really need to revisit your own defensive, judgmental and confrontational posts that would apparently prove that the high fat, high protein raw diet causes it? enough of that nonsense.

>>>My diet is high-fat and high-protein these days. I get most of my protein my hemp seeds and chlorella/spirulina and use a raw vegan sprouted brown rice/pea protein powder on and off. Hemp seeds appear to be a very low anti-nutrient seed and my hair analysis appears to support this. My zinc and magnesium levels were very high (in the healthy range) and hemp seeds are extremely rich in both of these minerals. If anti-nutrients were a concern, these minerals should've been low, not only because of the anti-nutrients but also because they would've messed up my digestion even further hindering nutrient assimilation.

your diet was always high fat and protein"


Yeah the domain recently expired and I haven't renewed it yet. For all of the pages, you just have add .webs to the link. For example, epiphanutrition.webs.com

www.epiphanutrition.webs.com

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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: Panchito ()
Date: November 24, 2016 01:15PM

Quote
jtprindl
>>>>Eating 80/10/10 is going to severely restrict your amino acid and fatty acid intake, which along with minerals is what the human body is made of. We are made of fat, protein, and minerals... and following a high-carb diet is a good way to become deficient in all of those.

Chosing to be identified as proteins/fat/minerals is wrong. Life can be divided in two basic parts, components and energy. The components use energy. It is the energy that made sense of the components. It could be said that the energy stored in food (from the sun) is used by protein components. But equally true, it could be said that the energy uses the proteins to transform itself. Thus, how you identify yourself is an ideological choice but energy came first. No energy (sun) no protein (blocks of life).





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2016 01:18PM by Panchito.

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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: kwan ()
Date: November 24, 2016 01:16PM

Hi Fresh,
Oh yes, it's very clear to me what the problem is.
More than most people, I've always been insulin resistant, from age 8-1/2 onward, because I was given chemo for several months (2 shots, twice weekly -- my mom was a former RN so the eye dr. let her administer them). The heavy doses of cortisone and testosterone (yes, don't laugh... testosterone -- luckily I was pre-puberty and it didn't wreak havoc with my sexuality) were given as a last ditch experimental medical protocol to see if they could keep me from losing my sight to a virulent infection that the dr. suspected might have actually been cancer. Anyway, I survived and didn't go blind, but it damaged my pancreas and made me really fat almost overnight. (The testosterone made my legs and arms really hairy, and only after years of detoxification did that normalize quite a bit.) I never overcame the insulin sensitivity very well, no matter how much I did cleanses and long water and vegetable juice fasts, and of course I maintained a raw vegan diet for many years.
Bottom line: too much fruit, even now after years of clean eating and extreme detoxification measures for decades, still makes me bloated, tired, nervous, and ultimately fat, even with the requisite greens and vegies.
I thrive on raw vegetables and a large amount of healthy plant fats. I am not alone, though. So many others who were raw vegan complain of having encountered very similar problems.
And I believe EVERYONE needs good fats. I look at many long-time raw vegans, and I see massive nutritional deficiency in a lot of them. It's written in their faces. And my sense is they are missing plant fats and plant proteins, and they're eating way too much fruit, to make up for what they really need.
Okay, I'm going to stop here. I promised I would not get into a debate about this stuff, and I really meant it. It never ends well.

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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: kwan ()
Date: November 24, 2016 01:19PM

Addendum to what I said directly above:
Vegetable-fruits, however, like red pepper and tomato, cucumber and zucchini ( (I think it's a veg-fruit, right?) are my favorites. Absolutely CRAVE them, and they are low glycemic. But they're nothing like the hybridized super-sweet fruits I now avoid: mangoes, pineapple, bananas, etc.
Once in awhile I have a few berries (especially strawberries).
I really don't crave or miss them, so it's no big deal.

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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: jtprindl ()
Date: November 24, 2016 03:40PM

Quote
Panchito
Quote
jtprindl
>>>>Eating 80/10/10 is going to severely restrict your amino acid and fatty acid intake, which along with minerals is what the human body is made of. We are made of fat, protein, and minerals... and following a high-carb diet is a good way to become deficient in all of those.

Chosing to be identified as proteins/fat/minerals is wrong. Life can be divided in two basic parts, components and energy. The components use energy. It is the energy that made sense of the components. It could be said that the energy stored in food (from the sun) is used by protein components. But equally true, it could be said that the energy uses the proteins to transform itself. Thus, how you identify yourself is an ideological choice but energy came first. No energy (sun) no protein (blocks of life).


Ok but I don't understand what your point is? Of course life on this planet would be non-existent if it wasn't for the sun.

But personally I think that if many high-carb raw vegans were to get their nutrient levels checked, they'd be in for a rude awakening. Will they be healthier than the average person? Probably (I'd hope so!) but I think there's this mentality that simply because one is eating raw, that means they are eating optimally and/or fully nourished. It's just simply not true. Maybe our body uses up carbs for energy first because they are the least important macro-nutrient.

www.epiphanutrition.webs.com

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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: Panchito ()
Date: November 24, 2016 04:54PM

OK. I'll explain my point. Eating excessive protein (blocks) is bad because it displaces carbs (energy). Converting protein to carbs is inefficient. Converting fat to energy does not work for the brain but it does for muscle. While the body is flexible, diets like the Okinawan (80/10/10) have proven very successful historically. They got all the nutrient levels (your claim) since they beat everybody else in life expectancy, dispelling all high carb diet fears that people that eat high fat rely on as arguments. Thus, it appears that a ratio of 80% energy to 10% blocks to 10% fat is healthy. Now, the 80% they ate was based mostly cooked (resistant starches, cooled potatoes, cool beans, etc), which make a difference in the glucose swings and lower fructose when compared to a fruit only diet.


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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: kwan ()
Date: November 24, 2016 05:23PM

Sorry, guys, I can't participate here anymore. The level of disconnect from reality, based on the need to perpetuate the idea that a high fruit diet with almost no protein or fat is optimal for human beings-- and ALL human beings, no less! -- is something I left behind a long time ago, knowing that it was unhealthy and impractical at best.
All the best! -- I'm OUTTA HERE!!!!!!

HAPPY THANKSGIVING.

Look for me on Facebook on my distant healing page or my regular profile page if you're so inclined. Always looking for open-minded friends who are interested in real exchanges and critical thinking.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: jtprindl ()
Date: November 24, 2016 06:11PM

"Eating excessive protein (blocks) is bad because it displaces carbs (energy)."

What's excessive? Fat is also energy.

"While the body is flexible, diets like the Okinawan (80/10/10) have proven very successful historically. They got all the nutrient levels (your claim) since they beat everybody else in life expectancy, dispelling all high carb diet fears that people that eat high fat rely on as arguments."

Longevity is not strictly based upon nutrient intake, it's one factor. Plus they aren't raw vegan so the same argument cannot be applied as they eat foods that non-raw vegans do in order to get various nutrients (such as fish, meat, eggs, dairy). Also, there isn't any indication that their macro-nutrient ratio is in any way responsible for their longevity.

www.epiphanutrition.webs.com

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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: Panchito ()
Date: November 24, 2016 06:55PM

jtprindl, this was your claim:

Quote
jtprindl
>>>>Eating 80/10/10 is going to severely restrict your amino acid and fatty acid intake, which along with minerals is what the human body is made of. We are made of fat, protein, and minerals... and following a high-carb diet is a good way to become deficient in all of those.

Upon which I responded:

Quote
Panchito
Okinawan (80/10/10) have proven very successful historically. They got all the nutrient levels (your claim) since they beat everybody else in life expectancy, dispelling all high carb diet fears that people that eat high fat rely on as arguments.

Explanation: you claimed that 80/10/10 macro nutrient ratio "severely restrict your amino acid and fatty acid intake," but I added an example (Okinawan diet), which dispels your argument about missing nutrients because they actually lived the longest with that specific macro nutrient.

That's all. I am not trying to make it complicated. What ever you (mis)understand from what I wrote is your burden, not mine.


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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: jtprindl ()
Date: November 24, 2016 07:01PM

"Explanation: you claimed that 80/10/10 macro nutrient ratio "severely restrict your amino acid and fatty acid intake," but I added an example (Okinawan diet), which dispels your argument about missing nutrients because they actually lived the longest with that specific macro nutrient."

I was referring to raw vegans specifically. If you add in animal foods, it increases amino acid and fatty acid intake, though in a sub-optimal manner.

www.epiphanutrition.webs.com

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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: RawPracticalist ()
Date: November 25, 2016 07:41AM

Quote
Panchito
OK. I'll explain my point. Eating excessive protein (blocks) is bad because it displaces carbs (energy). Converting protein to carbs is inefficient. Converting fat to energy does not work for the brain but it does for muscle. While the body is flexible, diets like the Okinawan (80/10/10) have proven very successful historically. They got all the nutrient levels (your claim) since they beat everybody else in life expectancy, dispelling all high carb diet fears that people that eat high fat rely on as arguments. Thus, it appears that a ratio of 80% energy to 10% blocks to 10% fat is healthy. Now, the 80% they ate was based mostly cooked (resistant starches, cooled potatoes, cool beans, etc), which make a difference in the glucose swings and lower fructose when compared to a fruit only diet.

I actually like Panchito's point, it is good for a healthy debate, what a forum is for. Fruit only diet is a problem for sure but fruit is not the problem when eaten with other foods in the diet. I am not into high fat, nor high cooked carb. I do eat high fruits and micro greens and I am doing very well. This combined with regular time at the gym is the best I ever felt. The mangoes and watermelons are just too delicious, I will take them even if that costs me not to live long, that is ok.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2016 07:48AM by RawPracticalist.

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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: fresh ()
Date: November 26, 2016 09:51PM

panchito,

jtprindl will not get it. your point remains valid since the okis eat very little animal foods relatively speaking.

KWAN!! thank you very much for your response, so generous of you to share,
that's quite a road you've been on and I admire your persistence.

but now you're gone again?

may I suggest that you being unable to participate in a forum that you label as excessively fruit dominant is a personal issue that you have and if you reevaluate you may see that it could be something that should not preclude you from participating?

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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: fresh ()
Date: November 26, 2016 10:13PM

okinawan diet 1950 1.5 percent animal foods
69% sweet potatoes,

giving lie to the myth that nutrition is so very difficult and deficiency results without eating superfoods etc



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2016 10:15PM by fresh.

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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: jtprindl ()
Date: November 26, 2016 10:15PM

"jtprindl will not get it. your point remains valid since the okis eat very little animal foods relatively speaking."

What's "very little"? Still adds in nutrients that wouldn't be there on a raw vegan diet. I think it's laughable to believe that macro-nutrient ratios are responsible for the Okinawan's longevity and see no reason to believe it has any relevance unless there is evidence of a direct correlation.

Notice how passive aggressive fresh and Panchito are? I don't know about you, but that doesn't seem healthy to me.

fresh - "jtprindl will not get it"
Panchito - "What ever you (mis)understand from what I wrote is your burden, not mine"

www.epiphanutrition.webs.com

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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: Panchito ()
Date: November 27, 2016 05:02PM

jtprindl, maybe your are mistaking "passive aggression" with listening to other opinions. Maybe for you listening to other opinions is a perceived aggression.


1 jtprindl says 801010 makes people deficient

2 panchito provides a whole 801010 culture example which lived the longest

3 jtprindl now says that the culture did not live the longest because of 801010

So? You are still missing the point. You should have addressed point two, not twist it into something new. If with straight forward points you cannot be dissuaded, and accuse others of "passive aggression," maybe you should look for problems in you, not in others


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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: bluespixie ()
Date: November 28, 2016 09:07AM

Quote
kwan
Addendum to what I said directly above:
Vegetable-fruits, however, like red pepper and tomato, cucumber and zucchini ( (I think it's a veg-fruit, right?) are my favorites. Absolutely CRAVE them, and they are low glycemic. But they're nothing like the hybridized super-sweet fruits I now avoid: mangoes, pineapple, bananas, etc.
Once in awhile I have a few berries (especially strawberries).
I really don't crave or miss them, so it's no big deal.

I've struggled with raw pineapple for a while now, but have found pulped mango mixed with a raw cereal mix (almond pulp, hemp, chia, fruit powders, buckwheat etc) lets me enjoy the sweetness without it being overkill.

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Re: Who's even raw anymore?
Posted by: bluespixie ()
Date: November 28, 2016 09:10AM

Quote
fresh
okinawan diet 1950 1.5 percent animal foods
69% sweet potatoes,

giving lie to the myth that nutrition is so very difficult and deficiency results without eating superfoods etc

Not the thing to say on a raw forum, but I believe steamed sweet potatoes to be an absolute game changer to any diet.

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