Even though WHO says not to wear masks, others in healthcare are starting to say it might be a good idea. China and South Korea believe it's crucial.

I agree. Yes there's a shortage for our health care workers who are risking and too often losing their lives. They should have the n19 and other masks available. A solution might be to make our own, and extra to give away if we can.

2 T-shirt thicknesses over the face can help prevent the spread from ourselves to others. Or, if you sew, there are some good mask patterns on line.

I've heard this: My mask protects you. Your mask protects me.

Sure as soon as you show contagious.

You've done that right?

No need to "show contagious" to BE contagious. People without symptoms can be carriers and spread the disease.

But Fresh, if you'd prefer not to believe this, please go your way, and I'll go mine. I'd just ask you to
respect the 99.999999999999999999999% of people who don't agree with you, and keep your distance from them, especially if you're not taking any precautions to protect yourself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2020 04:39PM by suncloud.

[science.sciencemag.org]

"The fraction of undocumented but infectious cases is a critical epidemiological characteristic that modulates the pandemic potential of an emergent respiratory virus (3–6). These undocumented infections often experience mild, limited or no symptoms and hence go unrecognized, and, depending on their contagiousness and numbers, can expose a far greater portion of the population to virus than would otherwise occur."

Article includes documentation of studies conducted in China.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2020 05:42PM by suncloud.

[buttoncounter.com]

For a nose clip, you can slip a straightened plastic paperclip into a stitched-in casing.

Or, try tying a cotton T-shirt around your face.

One thing that's cool about cloth masks is that you can boil them for a couple of minutes, dry them, and use them again. Still you'll need to stay 6 feet away even with a mask, and stay home as much as possible.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2020 06:21PM by suncloud.

[www.vox.com]

"The evidence for everyone wearing masks, explained"


[www.vox.com]

"Americans are sewing homemade masks to fight coronavirus"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2020 06:18PM by suncloud.

Quote
suncloud
No need to "show contagious" to BE contagious. People without symptoms can be carriers and spread the disease.


False. Unproven. Nonsense



But Fresh, if you'd prefer not to believe this, please go your way, and I'll go mine.


Not a matter of belief.
It's a matter of facts that you have no interest in entertaining



I'd just ask you to
respect the 99.999999999999999999999% of people who don't agree with you,


There are hundreds and thousands of people realize this is a hoax



and keep your distance from them, especially if you're not taking any precautions to protect yourself.

Stop telling me what to do I reject your ridiculous statements based on nothing

ok.

Memos from CDC to White House lay out rationale for possible widespread use of face coverings

Federal officials debating whether to recommend that face coverings be routinely worn in public are responding to increasing evidence that infected people without symptoms can spread the coronavirus, according to internal memos provided to the White House by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Simple cloth masks that cover the mouth and nose can prevent virus transmission from such individuals when they are out buying groceries or seeking medical care, according to the memos obtained by The Washington Post.

CDC considering recommending general public wear face coverings in public

But the documents note that widespread public use of masks is not culturally accepted in the United States the way it is in many Asian countries, where face coverings helped reduce the spread of the virus.

The memos were drafted in recent days by the CDC and sent to officials at the Department of Health and Human Services and the White House coronavirus task force for consideration of masks as an additional measure to slow the pandemic.

If adopted by the coronavirus task force, the recommendations would represent a major change in official CDC guidance that healthy people don’t need masks or face coverings. The memos make clear the coverings under discussion are not medical masks, such as N95 respirators or surgical face masks, which are needed by front-line health-care workers and are in extremely short supply.

The office of the vice president, which is overseeing the task force, did not immediately return a request for comment.

At a White House briefing Tuesday, President Trump was asked about people using face coverings. “My feeling is there is no harm in using a scarf or something,” he said, adding that medical masks should be reserved for hospitals. “I would say do it. You wouldn’t have to do it forever."

Why one expert says healthy people should wear DIY face masks
According to the CDC and World Health Organization, only the sick, and their caretakers, should wear face masks. Research scientist Jeremy Howard disagrees.

Desperate for medical equipment, states encounter a beleaguered national stockpile

Wearing cloth masks in public places would be an additional community mitigation tool, according to the memos. Social distancing of at least six feet is still recommended even when wearing a mask. The memos emphasize that a cloth facial mask is intended not so much to protect the wearer but to help prevent the spread of the virus to others. A memo dated Thursday noted that people “generate respiratory aerosols when speaking, coughing and sneezing” that can be inhaled by nearby individuals.

That and a more recent memo dated Monday refer generally to increasing evidence that people can spread the virus even when they feel well, often referred to as pre-symptomatic and asymptomatic transmission.

A CDC report last week on asymptomatic infections among residents at a skilled nursing facility in the Seattle area found that of 23 residents who tested positive for the novel coronavirus, 13 were asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic on the day of testing.

Infectious-disease experts say asymptomatic transmission may be playing a larger role in the outbreak than previously thought, but just how big remains unknown. Studies are underway at the CDC and elsewhere to better understand such spread.

Hospital workers battling coronavirus turn to bandannas, sports goggles and homemade face shields amid shortages

One of the challenges is figuring out what to call any face covering. In the earlier memo, one suggestion was to refer to it as a Courtesy Mask or Universal Source Control.

That memo says face covers should extend above the nose and below the chin to “completely cover the mouth and nostrils.” It should also fit snugly against the sides of the face and be secured with ties or ear loops, and be composed of multiple layers of fabric but not be “overly restrictive to breathe through.” An ideal face cover can be cleaned in a washing machine and machine dried without damage or distorting its shape, the memo said.

Deborah Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, initially resisted the idea of universal mask use because of concerns that recommending face coverings might undermine messages that people should stay at home as much as possible, according to a person with knowledge of the discussions who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he wasn’t authorized to talk about the issue.

Trump adviser and son-in-law Jared Kushner and others like the idea of recommending face coverings for when people are in public, the individual said.

With covid-19 cases still climbing sharply in the United States, some scientists, health experts, pundits and social influencers have begun vigorously advancing their position that everyone venturing into public or crowded places should wear a mask or face shield — even a homemade one — to lower the rate of transmission of the coronavirus, which causes covid-19.

There’s still no consensus in the scientific community on whether widespread use of such coverings would make a significant difference, and some infectious disease experts worry that masks could lull people into a false sense of security and make them less disciplined about social distancing.

Experts converge on plans for easing coronavirus restrictions safely

The Monday document suggested promotional “tag lines” the government could use if it recommended face coverings for the public: “COVID ends with me,” “My mask protects you and your mask protects me” and “I wear my mask to protect my community.”


The document noted that recommending widespread use of face coverings “may pose a challenge to U.S. communities because mask-wearing is uncommon,” according to the memo dated Monday.

Still, it said, “in many international communities, wearing masks in public is common, widely considered to be good hygiene, and is seen as a communal gesture of protecting others from the wearer’s potentially infectious exhales.”

Note from Suncloud: the statement "My mask protects you and your mask protects me" may come from Czecholslavakia, or that's where I first heard it. Lots of people there are making and wearing cloth masks.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2020 06:30PM by suncloud.

Hi Suncloud, can you check out my coronavirus in milk thread, please?
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
What if people can be infected by drinking milk products? Masks can only help with human to human contact.
Also poultry can spread coronavirus too, not necessarily this strain, but maybe. So what about people handling raw chicken and getting infected?
I am just too busy to read more at the moment but I am going to warn the people I know.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2020 06:35PM by Tai.

Too bad the experts just make up stuff they can't possibly know.

And that people trust authorities

And too bad you still don't know the absurdity of what comprises a CASE


And I am surrounded by mask wearing zombies
Who know nothing about dead cellular debris or health


Exactly the same reversal of reality
as "terrorists attacked the u.s. on 911"

World health chiefs could U-turn on telling healthy people not to wear face masks after study reveals the virus can be sneezed 27 FEET across a room

-The World Health Organization is set to reconsider advice to avoid masks
-Research has shown huge clouds of virus particles can be produced by coughs
-Experts say anything that could slow the spread of the virus could be a benefit
-Masks are already widespread in Asian countries such as Japan and South Korea

The World Health Organization will reconsider its decision to tell healthy people not to wear face masks to protect themselves from the coronavirus.

A recent study found that coughs and sneezes can spread virus particles up to 27ft (8m) in a cloud around an infected patient.

The WHO currently does not recommend that people without the illness wear face masks because there is little evidence they help and they would be better used by healthcare workers and patients who test positive.

But it might be about to change its mind, according to a former infectious disease director at the organisation.

Professor David Heymann, now an in-house expert at the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine, said the WHO was reopening its discussions about masks today.

He said officials could decide to advise people that masks are beneficial - but people would have to wear ones with a proper seal around the nose and wear them all the time.

Professor Heymann said: 'There is right now a debate about the usefulness of masks because Hong Kong has provided some evidence that masks may be useful in protecting individuals from infection. It's not clear yet whether or not that’s true.

'WHO, the group that I work with, is debating that with a group of experts around the world tomorrow, to understand whether there is evidence which would call for a change in what WHO is recommending now for masks.

'[What is recommends] is that they really don’t have a major role in protecting people from infection except in healthcare workers where they also wear eye protection and they also have a role from protecting others from coughs or sneezing.'

He added: 'But as the evidence becomes available, it seems there will be a debate trying to decide whether masks play a role at some point in the outbreak.

'And believe me, if they do, there is a private sector healthy enough to begin producing those masks in quantities necessary.'

He made the comments in a briefing at British think-tank Chatham House in London yesterday.

The WHO currently says healthy people only ought to wear a mask if they're looking after a COVID-19 patient, or if they are coughing and sneezing themselves.

The coronavirus is thought only to spread through close contact with others - defined as being within 6'6" (2m) of someone.

This is a short fun tutorial on making a mask using just a bandana and hair ties.

[blog.japanesecreations.com]


I would just recommend that instead of washing it, probably better to boil it. Also, instead of a bandana, a simple square of cotton (like from a T-shirt) might provide better protection.


This next link includes a simple T-shirt design: just cut and go. I'd slip in the suggested paper towel though for additional filter.

[www.lamag.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2020 07:17PM by suncloud.

Hi Tai. Thanks for your comments. And thank you for your invitation to the milk thread. I went there I think yesterday and found the article very interesting.

There's so much we don't yet know about this virus. I did hear some "expert" on Hawaii Public Radio say that studies on COVID 19 indicate it's most often (if not always) transferred by droplets that enter and infect the lungs, and that it probably couldn't be transferred through food (unless you're inhaling a droplet on the food). But then I heard the surgeon general say it's transferred most often by touching, which of course implies you could get it from infected food (one of his reasonings for why masks aren't effective). I wouldn't bet my life either way I think.

I think it will be interesting to find out more as we go along.

Milk from a cow though is kind of yucky IMO. Raw or not. Good to drink milk from one's own species when we're babies.

For milk drinkers, it's a very simple switch to go from cow milk to unsweetened nut milk, avoiding the extra sugar-without-fiber content of cow milk (and reducing the intense suffering of the very unfortunate cows). This simple switch can be very helpful for people with diabetes for example.

Oh Fresh. Still here? Well welcome. Hopefully all those mask-wearing zombies are helping to keep you safe, since you're not helping yourself (or anyone else)!

I can relate to the zombie comment though. Sometimes all this definitely seems like a zombie B movie. Unfortunately though it's all too real. Just ask anyone working in a New York hospital. So scary for them.

Big Island is interesting. East side of the island is very high poverty, many people wearing masks. West side of the island is wealthier, and almost no one was wearing masks at Home Depot when I was there last Sunday. Invincible maybe?

Not. We now have a map showing where most of our virus infections are located. They're on the wealthier side of the island.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2020 08:22PM by suncloud.

Nobody needs to keep me safe because viruses don't cause disease
but thank you for your concern

I don't like the implication I'm endangering anyone also.
It's false
Like I said it's the same as vaccines
How the sane people are bludgeoned by the teeming ignorant masses for not vaccinating


how do you imagine humans have survived
thousands of years without wearing masks ?

How do the wild animals avoid epidemics?


apparently that doesn't trouble you at all ..or no doubt some rationalization is made

Like it's new! Never seen before!


I wonder what percent you feel that your philosophy is correct ?
is it 100% or less than that?

Viruses and germs are the effect of disease, not the cause. As frenchman Louis Pasteur said on his deathbed: “Bernard was right; the pathogen is nothing; the terrain is everything.”

Viruses a bits or DNA or RNA that get expelled when a cell dies and disintegrates. A healthy body can clean up this detritus, while a unhealthy falls behind and there become a high viral load in the bloodstream.

I posit that all healthy humans have all human viruses in their body, but a levels so low that our current RNA targeted sequencing analysis genomic technology cannot not detect these viruses, as they may be in the concentrations of 1 virus (RNA sequence) per liter of blood. The current start of the art has a hard time detecting concentrations of 1 thousand sequences per milliliter.

Well, good question about animals avoiding epidemics. They don't of course.

[www.google.com]

And then there are the epidemics that can transfer from other animals to humans.

[www.livescience.com]

Plant species can suffer from epidemics also, especially when diversity is limited, like in the case of grafted species. "The American chestnut tree survived all adversaries for 40 million years, then disappeared within 40".

Although "diversity" for humans most often refers to the different races, and although all countries are becoming more diverse from that perspective (including the US), the human race as a whole has flourished well beyond many other earth species, which have now become increasingly extinct or close to. So our planetary diversity as a whole has diminished.

And our cities are historically places where this is most apparent. People are packed into our cities. Not many other animal species live there, except pets, rodents, and roaches - often vectors for disease. Epidemics often take their biggest toll in our cities. I'm sure polution and unhealthy lifestyle have an impact on our most vulnerable, but IMO, there could be more at play here, including nature's inclination to balance planetary diversity for enhancing the ecological necessity.

Just a thought though. Basically it's like we cannot naturally sustain our existing destructive existance without some sort of natural backlash.

Just my thoughts on it. Did anyone think we could continue on the present path of greater and greater planetary destruction and not expect something to come back and bite us (really hard) on the butt?

1. You're pulling from sources that have the same faulty logic as you
Of course

2. All the other stuff you said has nothing to do with virus as disease vector
OF COURSE

3. No answer as to your confidence level
Consider if you're wrong.

And you still have no idea what determines a case

Hi Fresh. Not sure I understand your interpretation of "vector".

A vector can be "an organism, typically a biting insect or tick, that transmits a disease or parasite from one animal or plant to another". The virus itself is not the vector.

My reference to "vector" was intended in a general sense related to epidemics, not necessarily to Covid 19, as we're still learning about it.

Today I went back to the fabric store to try to find more 1/4" elastic and some different color material for masks. No more elastic, and apparently no white elastic available to order. Black elastic comes in on Wednesday.

It was way different today at the store than last time. Now there's a line going into the store, nearly all wearing homemade masks, men and women, young and old. All 6 feet apart. No one goes in until someone comes out. You choose your materials and get into a line that snakes through the aisles. Then, after your material is cut, you get into another line to pay for it. A guy from the store was going around showing everyone how to use pipecleaners for the nose clip.

Men, women, young, old, Hawaiian, Asian, Portagee, Haole, Filipino all filled with the spirit of Aloha and a common purpose. My heart swells. We have a saying here: "So LUCKY we live Hawaii".

It's everywhere though in the world by now: the love and concern for others who are all going through a very hard time, and probably a harder time to come. It's really the only way we can adequately prepare.

quote suncloud It's everywhere though in the world by now: the love and concern for others who are all going through a very hard time, and probably a harder time to come. It's really the only way we can adequately prepare.

Im feeling it suncloud, We are livng in most interesting times wow!

14th Dalai Lama - True love for our neighbours, will be translated into courage and strenght.

The more we develop love for others, the more confidence we will have in ourselves.

thankyou suncloud for post nice!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2020 10:12AM by riverhousebill.