HIYA!

The more I read where people are doing really well on high fruit, low fat, low protein diets, the more I lean toward jumping into it.

When I feel like eating this fruit, eat it, when I feel like eating that fruit, eat it? And add some tender baby greens regularly? And some fats regularly?

Is that all there is to it?

Arugula, (and others) I know you'll disagree, and highly I respect your opinion. But I'm inclined more toward the feeling side of living. I *feel* there needs to be a balance between thinking and feeling out life.

I haven't read Graham's book. Is it even important for success on this way of living? Or is the book mostly good for the theoretical understanding? Is the book more of a food plan, or a lifestyle plan? How broad is the scope?

Bryan, you have a lot of theoretical explanations that I suppose you get from reading and / or listening to other people. Oftentimes even rivaling Arugula in a sense.



This way is not compatible with Zen practice. This way IS Zen practice. - Dr. Doug Graham

Nothing whatsoever should be attached to. - Buddha

I'm curious about the book, too.

I went raw with those percentages, actually lower fat and a little more protein intake without even knowing anything about its benefits or knowing anything about raw food! Then months later I read about raw food and just recently about 80/10/10 and it all made sense because I have already experienced it.

If anyone has more info about the book, please post!!!

Probably not what you wanto hear but...

Well I think this way of eating does nothing but cause greif and confusion.
I tried it back when I was 100% raw for about 6 months.Personally it didn't do anything for me.The low fat idea is nutts IMO.Once 100% raw wee need serious amounts of good quality fats to funtion 100% IMO.It's one of the most detrimantal things you could do-not to.Thriving wild animals don't count calories from this or that....sorry it just never made sense to me.Confusing to me.Nonetheless it may work wonders for you and I really hope so.

Just my opinion.

But hey good luck.Make everyday the best ever!!

See you at the top!!

<<Probably not what you wanto hear but...

Well I think this way of eating does nothing but cause greif and confusion.
I tried it back when I was 100% raw for about 6 months.Personally it didn't do anything for me.The low fat idea is nutts IMO.Once 100% raw wee need serious amounts of good quality fats to funtion 100% IMO.It's one of the most detrimantal things you could do-not to.Thriving wild animals don't count calories from this or that....sorry it just never made sense to me.Confusing to me.Nonetheless it may work wonders for you and I really hope so.

Just my opinion. >>


Thriving wild apes do not eat high fat. They don't count or measure what they eat, you're right about that, but they also are not coming from the vantage point of a palate that has acclimated to the tastes of a high fat diet either. They eat instinctively as they have learned to from their ancestors, and their diet is predominated by fruits and greens.

I’m always kind of appalled when I read of some chimp or gorilla study (the ones I’ve looked at most have been the ones on sign language) and I see the researchers feeding them a foreign diet including yogurt and marshmallows. I would expect that the first thing they would want to do is how to feed them as they would eat in the wild.

In the new book Dr. Graham does a good job of detailing how fats interact with sugars to create problems with blood sugar, leading to issues such as diabetes. He also discusses other problems related fats, such as the slower metabolism of fats and what happens in the digestive tract.

I recommend the book.

Deborah

Why do so many assume that thinking is antithetical to feeling? That's a very bad assumption. And why would one prefer a semi-theoretical approach that is incorrect to one that is more rigorous and correct? The only way one can prefer the incorrect explanation is to not have enough knowledge to see that it is incorrect.

Arugula, you don't know "the correct" way to live, do you? I'm confused by your post. If you did know the correct way, you wouldn't need to read so many studies, and woulnd't ever modify your diet. I'm confused by your post, Arugula.



This way is not compatible with Zen practice. This way IS Zen practice. - Dr. Doug Graham

Nothing whatsoever should be attached to. - Buddha

People post a lot of stuff here that is clearly incorrect--especially when they are trying to appear scientific. They criticize the scientific method on the one hand, but they feel free to cite when it suits them.

But when they don't have a solid understanding, they make big mistakes. Like fruit being a match for the protein in mother's milk. Or acidic foods causing calcium losses. Or cooked proteins causing digestive leucocytosis. Those are just a few examples but there are many more. I get tired of correcting errors, there is no fun in it but I hate to see people misled.

I also think it's a grave error to discount the need for adequate intakes of vitamins, minerals, essential fatty acids, and essential amino acids. But many people here discount the need for assuring adequate intakes. They might take the position: well, even though every single study that surveyed a group of non-supplementing vegans for B12 found that the majority of subjects had elevtated homocysteine levels that does not consitute proof. No, but it consitutes prudency to avoid a very common problem that can have dire results in the long term when the diet is so restrictive.

They never post their blood test results. We can't see markers of their elective DNA damage and things like that due to overreliance on what they "think" is health--rejection of something that is long established.

But such markers of adverse impact are surely present. Surely on the other hand there are some markers of better health. But it would be better to eliminate the potential for adversity and to have all markers of better health. A lot of this adversity is easily avoided.

TroySantos,

I gave an overview of the contents of "The 80/10/10 Diet" in a previous post.

Quote

When I feel like eating this fruit, eat it, when I feel like eating that fruit, eat it? And add some tender baby greens regularly? And some fats regularly?

Is that all there is to it?

Yes, those are the basics. Learning what 10% fat looks like doesn't take long. Practicing it can be a challenge.

There is an appendix with sample menus for the different season.

If you read my earlier post that I referred to above, you can see the chapter titles and the titles of the sidebars and tables. There is a lot of practical information about transitioning and there are testimonials of people's experience and the healing they had after moving to Graham's diet.

The scope goes into the science behind the diet. The rationale for low fat. Disassembling some of the myths around fruit. Also disassembling of raw food myths. Challenges on going raw. Practical advice for the day to day things that will arise.

Moving to this diet can be easy. I had some difficulty. Getting to 10% fat took years for me. For some people, going low fat will be effortless. For others, it make take a lifetime. The more pain a person experiences because of their failing health, the more easeful this diet is. Sometimes it has to hurt enough to move or change one's position.

Doug Graham, at this time, is the most visible proponent of the natural hygiene approach to raw and lifestyle, but there are also several others out there with literature, especially the dead guys: Herbert Shelton and T.C. Fry. Lots of good stuff out there. Doug's new book is just the latest one available. It focuses on the food part of the lifestyle program. He explains the basics and answers a lot of questions about places people get confused. He has a board at www.vegsource.com/talk/raw/index.html where you can ask him questions or get input from others following this aproach. His website is www.foodnsport.com

I usually eat one fruit at a time or if I have more than one together, they tend to be in the same category (acid or sweet for example). If it's a day with fat, I save that for the last meal because it takes so long to digest that any sweet fruit eaten after that will cause a bit of an intestinal storm! Also, if you don't eat enough calories of fruit before the fat meal, you'll crave fruit after the fat meal.

Greens: When i was doing other approaches to raw I forced myself to eat a certain amount of greens or forced myself to eat darker ones like kale when they didn't even taste good or I didn't feel like it. Now that I'm learning more to go by the feeling, I find I don't have to control it. I can go for days without much greens and then suddenly I crave it and find myself eating a few heads of lettuce for an entire meal! It just balances itself out if I don't control it. Also one aspect of this approach is that the foods themselves don't have medicinal properties so there is no need to even try and make yourself eat a certain food if it doesn't taste good in the moment. If it's too bitter or whatever, don't guilt yourself into eating it or hide it in a smoothie just to get X nutients or whatever.

Fats are the same as the greens: the more i get into this style, the less I have to control it. Each year I find I need less overt fats. When the craving shows up I usually go for it, and then my body will tell me, we don't need that again for a while! Sometimes I eat a lot of fat one day and then i don't want it again for a week.

I am just starting to get more into the benefits of mono-eating. It is TRIPPY! Supposedly when you are hungry and you eat just one food, if you are tuned into your body enough, it will send you a signal (the food will change tastes, or you will just feel really satisfied) for you to stop eating it. Doug says you can eat enough of one food to feel satisfied and not want to eat again until the next meal. This is the way animals eat in nature, "foods one at a time, when hungry, until full." Variety stimulates the appetite (not true hunger) so we don't feel satiated. I am just starting to have a couple experiences with this mono-eating satisfaction and I am sure looking forward to more!

OK I'm starting to ramble. Anyhow if you are interested there is plenty of info out there.

Love,
Uma

No, you weren't rambling Uma. What you were saying was very interesting.

I have a couple of questions about 80-10-10 for anyone who might care to answer:

If a person eats a whole lot of nuts or seeds for instance, like much more than any person really needs, like maybe a couple of pounds of sunflower seeds plus 5 great big bowls of almonds in just one day, but the same person also eats a really huge quantity of fruit and veggies, so that at the end of the day, the ratio still adds up to 80-10-10 for the day. . . would that day be considered healthy because the ratio was 80-10-10?

Or, for another example, say a person doesn't overeat and has the perfect 80-10-10 day. Then the next day, they eat 10 times more carbs, protein, and fats than the day before. They'd still end up with the 80-10-10 ratio on the second day. Would both days be considered healthy 80-10-10 days?

If on a given day a person blows it and eats more nuts or seeds than usual, is it better to then eat more carbs than they really want so they end up with the correct ratio, or is it better to eat their normal load of carbs and NOT end up with the correct ratio?

Is it that you just have to try to get to the correct ratio while at the same time not overeating?

Or does Doug Graham also provide a way to know how much in grams (rather than just percent) of carb or fat or protein a person should eat in a day?

Also, is there any discussion of other nutrients besides the three big ones - carbs, fats and proteins?

Sorry I haven't read the book or I'd already know the answers. Maybe I'll order it. I'm kind of curious.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2007 07:22AM by suncloud.

I edited that last post a lot because I was trying to get those questions out without sounding overly skeptical. I'm really not.

But I always hear about 80-10-10 associated with low fat quantities, and yet I can't quite understand how it would automatically imply low fat quantities if you can have the same ratio and eat lots of fat if you eat lots of carbs too.

There must be something more to it, right?

From what I get so far, you figure out the 80-10-10 ratios based on your total calories in a day or week or year or whatever you are looking at. But it is not healthy to eat more calories than you need in a day. Doug and the like are really into doing enough physical activity to create a real demand for calories, then you can eat more. If you're sedentary you don't need as much. So just cuz you get the ratio right, if you way overeat, that will toxify your system and do negative for your health. Sure perhaps if you were totally bedresting one day and then did a triathlon the next day, your scenario might be plausible?! because your demand for calories the next day will be greater.

By the way, if you had a couple pounds of sunflower seeds that would be over 5000 calories. That means you'd have to eat 40,000 calories that day from fruit (i think). This would be a feat!

Love,
Uma

Overeating will results in loss of health, even if the food eaten is in the 811 proportions. However, Doug encourages the increasing of the energy (or calorie) requirements of the body via a fitness program and exercise. He does this because if the energy requirements are higher because you are exercising more, your nutrient intake will also be higher.

But eating more food that your body requires will generate bad health. This is because your body will be spending more energy on digestion than is required for its energy requirements, and there are more toxins in the body to eliminate.

In terms of eating more nuts that is necessary, how do we know this is true? In my own experience of my process of getting my fats under 10%, my body was accustomed to eating 40% fat during my SAD days, and over 60% fat during my early raw days. So to expect to go from 60% fat down to 10% fat without repercussions (and many of these could have been mental/emotional needs) was a bit ambitious or overzealous in my case. So I found the level of fat I was comfortable with, which for me was 20%, and I just let go of controlling my fat intake. It took a few years, but at some point my fat intake dropped to under 10% effortlessly.

But to answer your question, if I were to eat a fat meal on day, and it brought my fat intake to 40% for the day, here is what I would do. If I found that I regularly needed to eat 40% fat a day, I would shoot for a target of having an average fat intake of 25% a day. This could like like eating 40% fat one day, 25% fat the second day, and 10% fat the third day. The average of these 3 days is (40+25+10)/3, or 25% fat.

If I could live with this, I would implement this plan, with the hopes that over time, my desire would drop. Every so often I would test to see if I really need to be eating so much fat. Perhaps I would try doing 30% fat one day, 20% fat the second day, and 10% fat the 3rd day, for an average fat intake of 20% fat per day (30+20+10)/3, and see how that felt. If it felt OK, I would live with that for a while.

And over time, the desire and need for fat will drop, until you are eating on average 10% fat or less. This process could take years. It took me years.

The 80/10/10 Diet book gives measurements to help you calculate your fat intake if you don't have a scale, but only have measure tools like cup/tbsp/tsp measures. There are really nice digital scales that are pretty cheap nowadays, and I think there is one mentioned in the book somewhere.

There is not much talk of the other nutrients except for B12. When you are eating a diet of mostly whole fresh fruits and greens, most of the vitamins are minerals are handled. Again, if you are worried about this, you can use the nutritional calculators to see what your intake is. And if you find you are low on certain nutrients, Doug recommends increasing your exercise and physical exertion to increase your caloric demands so that your nutrient content also rises. Doug eats 3500 calories a day of raw foods, based on his level of daily exercise.

>Doug recommends increasing your exercise and physical exertion to increase your caloric demands so that your nutrient content also rises. Doug eats 3500 calories a day of raw foods, based on his level of daily exercise.

Yes, he does, and I strongly opine that this is the way to do it if you are going to do it.

Even though he does mono meals and eats in the environmens of 95% fruit, he eats so much fruit that he probably gets enough of his needed minerals on most days.

One is much more likely to meet (at least) most of one's needs on a very high fruit diet if kcals are increased via exercise. But many people omit this important aspect. Also he does eat 3-5% greens and this is helpful also.

Some people who dislike greens more than others may be at increased risks for certain types of cancers. If they are born with a strong dislike of bitter tastes, they may not eat as many vegetables and not get as many of the cancer-fighting protective phytochemicals. Some refs for those who have interest in reading more:

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

One can search terms like

prop
bitter
cancer
taste

OK. I get it. Thanks so much for your replies. Sounds really good.

I think I actually will order the book. I haven't bought a raw food book for ages, but I'd like to see what Doug Graham has to say.

I really like it that Doug Graham stresses the importance of lots of regular exercise. I think it's easy for many of us raw fooders to underestimate how important it is to exercise, since we're already so much healthier just from eating better.

Even eating a lot of fruit though, and a good variety, I do have to be watchful that I get enough iron, as otherwise I tend to have spells of vertigo. That's one big reason why I eat sesame seeds. But I think I can work that into 80-10-10.

Thanks again so much. This forum has been extremely helpful for me.

-Ally (suncloud)

Also, don't underestimate the greens in the diet. Graham recommends 5% of calories from greens. For a 2000 calories a day diet, this is 100 calories of greens - 1.5 pounds of romaine lettuce or 1.6 pounds of celery or 1 pound of spinach or 1 pound of cabbage or 1 pound of baby bok choy of a half pound of kale (if you like kale).

I would greatly appreciate a personal example of what you ate today while following the 80/10/10 diet. I am looking for a safe path to follow as I get used to following my own body's instincts. I am still in fear to let go and follow my body's lead - I feel that if I follow a "menu plan" for the first couple of days, I will be more likely to respond favorably to my body's true signals.

In peace,
inner beauty

Hi Bryan,

Good advice about the greens probably for most, but for me:

I've tried really hard to eat greens everyday and I really like them, but my body rebels. Last time I tried it I got very constipated (along with numerous other little problems) in I think about a week, although I only ate just a little bit of greens in a very small salad each day.

I do better it seems on eating a big salad every few days or so - sometimes every other day even, but usually once or twice a week.

I've tried building up to greens slowly, and that doesn't work for me either. I just start feeling sluggish, depressed, etc.

Once or twice a week, I can handle. In fact, my strength seems to ebb somewhat if I go any longer than a week without greens, and I don't like that.

I might have to average out the correct amounts of everything over the course of a week or so. For now at least, that's what I'm shooting for. I'm just getting ready to enter some possible daily food plans into nutritiondata.com and see about getting 80-10-10.

Also, I'll be ordering the book today.

Thanks again for all your help and for being here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2007 11:32PM by suncloud.