Hello whoever is out there listening...
I have been trying to go raw for several weeks now. I'm having SUCH a tough time with no support.
I have heard just about every audio file from David Wolfe.. ever, and many many others. I've read and shopped and juiced and blended.
Thing is, much to my disappointment I truly feel no noticeable changes at all yet. In fact, I feel worse. My joints and muscles ache, my acid reflux is worse than ever. I know I sound like a big whiney crybaby but I don't want to give up.
I really believe, or WANT to believe this life style will improve my terrible health and help me gain more energy and lose weight too.

I guess I just need some enocouragement. Is it always so tough? I tried going raw for several months 3 years ago. I ran into the same problems back then.. no noticeable improvements in how I felt. How long does it take?

When you start to eat healthy......deposits of toxic material in your body are released back into your bloodstream for elimination. This causes the detox reaction and discomfort. If you are acutely uncomfortable or in pain...then I suggest a slower transitional diet of slowly eating more fruits and vegetables at a pace that is right for YOU.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

You said it yourself, you dont want to give up! The problems you are having are detox sypmtoms. Also, if you have acid reflux, any extreme diet change is going to upset that, even if its a change for the better. You owe it to yourself to do what will vastly improve your life in the long run! Its hard at first but very worth it. You want to feel good and fit and energetic, and I know that at least for me, raw foods are the best way to achieve that. Do something to get your mind off your stress. Go for a walk or if you feel too ill, take a bath or read a book. I always had chronic stomach problems myself, and it took me about a month raw to really feel much better. Now I am so glad I did. I thought I was going to feel sick for the rest of my life. Now, I feel great all the time and I am so thankful that I stuck it out. I wish you the best!

You will feel better, you will get healthier, and you will lose weight..I know this from my own experience. You can't be any worse off then I was when I first went raw, and the first 2 months were not great for me either..I was sick, sick, sick..but I could tell it was helping because my energy was up, I was losing weight, and I had a better mental clearity.

Love,
Prism

If you can afford it moneywise and time wise, doing a raw food retreat for a week or more like at The Optimum Health Institute of San Diego or Austin or at Hippocrates in Florida, can really, really help with the initial cleansing and detoxing and getting you on a healthy track to an all raw lifestyle ( or high raw lifestyle). There is plenty of support from your fellow participants who are going through the program with you, and the complete rest from outside stimulation is very helpful emotionally, physically and spiritually when transitioning and detoxifying yourself from cooked foods to all raw.

Just some suggestions....


peace
love
joy
i breathe in
i breathe out
Bikini

It would help to know what you are eating, and when.

FWIW, I've been struggling with raw for a while. I've done it for even a couple of years at a time and then fall off the wagon. The two ways I've done raw in the past are either mono fruit during the day and raw veggie salad at night (no condiments, salt, etc.); or anything goes if it's raw - pates, nuts, etc.

I've been reading about the fruitarians here thinking, no way! If it's hard for me to stay raw eating almond pate, it'll be impossible to do it with just fruit and greens and low fat.

Well, guess what, I've been doing it for a few days and it's easier than anything I've ever done. For me, what works is a large fruit salad of sweet fruits - 1-2 bananas, 1-2 mangos, some berries, a couple of dates. That is the most satisfying meal I've ever had. It completely gets rid of the hunger without a trace of heaviness, fatigue, dullness, or any discomfort or negative effect of the food at all. It's just wonderful. It leaves me energized, comfortable in my body, satiated, happy. I do eat greens at night and some nuts or fat each day or every other day. But the mainstay of the diet is fruit fruit fruit.

I'd like to thank the fruities and 80-10-10ers who have posted here and encourage others to give it a try. The secret is to eat enough fruit, really sweet fruit, to feel completely satisfied.

I'm so glad I tried it because it is finally an eating plan that feels 100% great.

muddyclothes,

Eating in the David Wolfe style of raw can be as unhealthy or more unhealthy than a simple cooked food lifestyle. This is because this particular transitional raw diet is high in fat and contains a lot of unhealthy non-food items.

I also encourage eating more fruit than is suggested by the Wolfe diet and other transitional raw diet plans. It may take a while before the body is going to like getting the bulk of its calories from fruit.

What does your current transitional raw diet look like? If you would share what your daily menu looks like, perhaps we could point out where we see potential problems. Include not only the food you eat, but all substances you put into your mouth (beverages, meds, supplements, etc).

Hi Love,
Sounds like you're eating way too much nuts and fats if you're not feeling better yet. Try eating more simply and then see how you feel. If I were you I would try to see if I could go just a day drinking vegetable juices and I bet you'll notice an amazing improvement. Also, I personally love to drink two ounces of wheatgrass a day. I definately feel an improvement after drinking it.

Good Luck,
Cecilia

I've just checked for any possible responses and I'm just so grateful for all your replies! So considerate of you all to take the time to answer me.

I must say I am a bit all over the place in the last few weeks with the raw thing.
I have not been 100% but I try to make a green juice every day from lots of fresh greens like celery, kale, parsley, apple..

I have also been doing smoothies for breakfast with coconut oil, cacao and lots of blueberries, hemp seeds and green powders.

I'm having trouble really sorting out what is really right for me and I know this takes time and experimenting.

The few suggestions that I try to do more fruits is interesting. There are SO many different theories. Some experts say to stay totally away from very sweet fruits. Some say eat lots of them.
Bryan (above), you seem to be suggesting that you are not keen on David Wolfe's ideas. While I'm not real sure about a lot of his ideas, I just don't know what to think.
I know this:
Mostly I am trying to break my addiction to breads, pastas and sugars. I guess I will just have to hang in there a bit longer. I do love the suggestion of eating lots of fruit. I think I could totally do ok with this but was worried about all that sugar. My number 1 goal here is to have more ENERGY. I will eat/not eat whatever it takes to get some energy back. Right now I'm a total mess.

I'm taking all your suggestions to heart.. thank you all so much!

muddy,

For what it's worth, I have tons more energy on high fruit.

muddyclothes,

If your current raw diet is anything like my transitional raw diet, I was eating a lot of fat. As a percentage of the weight or volume of the food I ate, it was under 10% fat. This is because veggies don't have a lot of calories, and volume wise and weight wise fat doesn't take a lot of space. But if I looked at the calories I was eating, over 60% of my calories were coming from fat.

Many raw foodists (including myself) start with eating more fats to compensate for the lack of starch. While it doesn't appear that cooked eaters are eating large volumes of starch, from a calorie perspective, the starchy foods provide a lot of calories.

The solution to the too much fat problem and not enough carbohydrates problem is to eat more fresh fruit, perhaps as much as 80% of the calories in your diet coming from fruit. The rest can come from vegetables and fat.

To get an idea of how many calories are in a particular volume of fat, check out this post.

Or ideally, use a nutritional calculator like fitday/nutridiary/nutritiondata to see how much fat you are eating, and reduce the fat intake to under 20%.

You might check out the thread called "High-fruit low-fat research trial!!!" to see what people's food intake looks like on a low fat raw diet.

Eating more fruit will definitely take your mind (and your body) off of starchy cooked carbohydrate foods.

muddyclothes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I have also been doing smoothies for breakfast
> with coconut oil, cacao and lots of blueberries,
> hemp seeds and green powders.

the above is a good reason not to follow wolfies advice.
i would suggest the avoidance of cacao, coconut oil, and green powders.
maybe even avoid hemp seeds.

if it's energy you want, powders, oils and stimulating (with the following inevitable energy drop) cacao are not the way to get it.

focus more on whole foods.

if you're worrried about sugar, just blend in celery and greens to moderate the sugar.

but we need to get the sugar from somewhere, whether fruit, or not.




> Mostly I am trying to break my addiction to
> breads, pastas and sugars.

by sugars you must not mean fruit.
it's difficult to break addictions when you replace them with another addiction (cacao) and maybe also fail to eat enough healthy carbs.

Ok, I'm going to try sticking with high fruit for a while and see how that feels.

As for fats, I was not eating many nuts but I was eating avocados as well as coconut oil. I'm not a big cacao fan but was sort of forcing it down because I was hearing such marvelous things about it.

Ok, since I did ask for help I should clarify some info: 3 years ago I went to Dr Cousens' Tree of Life center in AZ where I was told to stay totally clear of sweet fruits. I came home with about $1500 of supplements and ate only veggies and non-sweet fruit until I could not stand it any longer. I was miserable as it was just TOO MUCH of an abrupt change from my previously omnivore diet. I felt crappy as I was obviously in a massive detox. A bit lighter on the scale and a lot lighter in my bank account.

What I want is to find a way to go mostly raw that is not going to make me miserable or feeling deprived (or broke!).

I really want to improve my energy level. If I can have energy, all else can be done. People keep reporting they have so much more energy when they go raw. I'm tired of feeling like my battery is half dead all day long.

I am happy to hear that some get this eating mostly fruit. This makes total common sense to me. So why am I not listening to my common sense rather than experts? Fruit is the most appealing natural food.

muddyclothes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok, I'm going to try sticking with high fruit for
> a while and see how that feels.

[www.foodnsport.com]
[www.foodnsport.com]


> As for fats, I was not eating many nuts but I was
> eating avocados as well as coconut oil. I'm not a
> big cacao fan but was sort of forcing it down
> because I was hearing such marvelous things about
> it.

There are NO superfoods.
The concept is absurd.
follow the money.

it's intellectually dishonest and dangerous for the way some gurus to promote a system which suggests supplements, or superfoods, or special programs.

not to mention that wolfe's initial foray into this arena was to become the world's foremost RAw plagiarist.

regarding g cousens, d wolfe, b clement, etc..
the most visible person that comes the closest to providing INFORMATION as opposed to selling something (while also having a sound background in human health) is dr graham. if you need a guru, choose wisely.


> Ok, since I did ask for help I should clarify some
> info: 3 years ago I went to Dr Cousens' Tree of
> Life center in AZ where I was told to stay totally
> clear of sweet fruits. I came home with about
> $1500 of supplements and ate only veggies and
> non-sweet fruit until I could not stand it any
> longer.

very interesting. thank you for that bit of unfortunate news.


> I really want to improve my energy level. If I can
> have energy, all else can be done. People keep
> reporting they have so much more energy when they
> go raw. I'm tired of feeling like my battery is
> half dead all day long.

undereating on simple carbs.
don't be afraid of simple carbs
yes yes, we are not "monkeys",
and modern fruit is different from wild, but
many primates get the majority of their food from fruit family.

it's working for many people, from what i can tell.

be afraid of a lot of fat
unless you're suvine, and you can eat 6 avocados a day ;-)


> I am happy to hear that some get this eating
> mostly fruit. This makes total common sense to me.
> So why am I not listening to my common sense
> rather than experts?

wrong experts.

good luck.
keep searching...and learning and trusting in yourself.

Hi fresh,
I checked out Dr. Graham's site and it looks like he has stuff to sell too. My question is how do you know which "expert" is right? I certainly do not need a guru, but I think perhaps each one as some valuable advice to share. We need to develop discernment. I thought I would try the cacao thing and I did. I certainly have enough experience in life to realize no one is right all the time. As for Dr. Cousens, while I did find his treatments just way beyond my budget, I did witness some amazing healing for others. Some very impressive results, which is why I went there. Right now I'm a bit off listening to any experts. I keep remembering I was healthy and bursting with energy when I was young and never gave a minute of thought about diet.

I've read here where some people are eating what for me seems an astounding amount of sweet fruit. I don't know if that is the way for me to go either. Experience will tell me if it is.

My last word on the 'experts' is use common sense and look at that person and what THEY look like and just as importantly, how does that person treat other people? It's really easy to look fantastic and be healthy when you are 37. I want to see someone in their 50s or older who is fabulously healthy, and is beautiful inside too.
This has been a very helpful discussion for me and helped me get some balance back.

muddyclothes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi fresh,
> I checked out Dr. Graham's site and it looks like
> he has stuff to sell too.

my intent was to say that he primarily sells information, moreso than any other.

>I did witness some
> amazing healing for others. Some very impressive
> results, which is why I went there.

you're right. many have healed. that's because many are so sick that they make changes that are better than what they are doing.

but this does not have anything to do with a sustainable long term diet and health regimen, at no cost to you.

> My last word on the 'experts' is use common sense
> and look at that person and what THEY look like
> and just as importantly, how does that person
> treat other people? It's really easy to look
> fantastic and be healthy when you are 37. I want
> to see someone in their 50s or older who is
> fabulously healthy, and is beautiful inside too.
> This has been a very helpful discussion for me and
> helped me get some balance back.

you're right. graham is in his fifties.

muddyclothes! that's a rather amusing name...

ah... it's all becoming clear now.

This whole forum is all about Dr. Graham's devotees. I stumbled into it thinking it was an independant thing. My bad.

Lovely, but I don't think I can eat all those bananas and tangerines in one day anymore than I can down all that cacao.

muddyclothes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ah... it's all becoming clear now.
>
> This whole forum is all about Dr. Graham's
> devotees. I stumbled into it thinking it was an
> independant thing. My bad.

no it's really not. there are many here who are not "devotees" at all, and who hold views quite antithetical to his.

and that's like saying there are so many devotees of alexander graham bell, or the wright brothers. ideas that work.

fresh, I just telegraphed you privately. I'll be taking the balloon out soon to discuss this with you further.

i dont think this forum is a doug graham devotee site at all , there are tons of opposing views as well as many people who dont agree with DG at all or very little

thing is there is so much info out there , pick an choose from everyone the parts that sit with you the best .. your body and how it reacts to things is different then mine .. or his .. or hers .. etc ...

ive been on DG's site a few times there was a few things that sit well with me . ..and some that don't .. just like every other website out there regarding raw foods

this site here seems to be the one (that ive found) where unbiased or biased discussions and debates seem to be tolerated the most...

just my opinion

- not a DG devotee or any other Guru

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

anaken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fresh, I just telegraphed you privately. I'll be
> taking the balloon out soon to discuss this with
> you further.


got it. did you get my carrier pigeon transmission?
i sent broncho charlie as a backup
Rider Qualifications:
Ad in California newspaper read: "Wanted. Young, skinny, wiry fellows. Not over 18. Must be expert riders. Willing to risk death daily. Orphans preferred." Most riders were around 20. Youngest was 11. Oldest was mid-40s. Not many were orphans. Usually weighed around 120 pounds.

Jgunn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i dont think this forum is a doug graham devotee
> site at all , there are tons of opposing views as
> well as many people who dont agree with DG at all
> or very little
>
> thing is there is so much info out there , pick an
> choose from everyone the parts that sit with you
> the best .. your body and how it reacts to things
> is different then mine .. or his .. or hers .. etc
> ...
>
> ive been on DG's site a few times there was a few
> things that sit well with me . ..and some that
> don't .. just like every other website out there
> regarding raw foods
>
> this site here seems to be the one (that ive
> found) where unbiased or biased discussions and
> debates seem to be tolerated the most...
>
> just my opinion
>
> - not a DG devotee or any other Guru

Thank you, Jgunn. I know I'm new here but from the responses I had gotten it seemed pretty much leaning that way. I felt disappointed. Not that I have anything against Graham, but I was looking for a forum that is not dedicated to a specific "guru". I got a load of listening to the experts and now I was wanting to hear from people who are actually following or testing out different ideas.

I absolutely agree we can learn something from many different reasearchers and I hate to see any person who devotes their life to researching this field being completely dismissed out of hand or denounced as a money-grubbing charlatan. There are easier ways to make money, believe me.

People get well by a lot of different methods but I'm beginning to strongly suspect what we think and believe is at least as important to what we put in our mouths.

muddy

in 5 years i probably have hundreds of websites on raw bookmarked... some small some quiet extensive and like i said this one here seems to be the best for discussing anybody or anything (as long as its vegan!) david wolfe .. or doug graham or shazzie or allisa or whoever you want to discuss to hear both sides of what people think

ive yet to buy a book ..gurulike or raw uncookbook ...all the info ive gotten for *me* personally has been through the internet or talking to people ive met, chiropractors, massage therapists, dieticians, naturapaths etc...or people online ..

thers alot of sites out there making some money ..good for them! and theres alot of sites not making anything just providing information .. good for them too !!

i certainly agree with your last remark ... i also beliee what we think and believe is at least as important as what we put in our mouths

i think you will see after awhile there are many people following high fruit / low fat ... many people doing low fruit lots of greens... many people doing just fruit ...many people doing raw gourmet .. people supplementing .. people not supplementing ..diehard fasters .. anti-fasters lol ...an on an on an on

were all just trying to find what works for us *me* you will too!

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2007 10:35PM by Jgunn.

muddyclothes Wrote:
> I hate to see any
> person who devotes their life to researching this
> field being completely dismissed out of hand or
> denounced as a money-grubbing charlatan.


muddy,

it's unfortunate that you have been offended, but i stand by my position.

i was attempting to provide some information about motivation of certain people.

and also you seemed interested in maybe trying higher fruit, so i provided you with a couple links to more information on the how and why, in order to assist you in your endeavor.

too bad you've taken this information so badly.

do you think someone who sells cacao and writes a book on cacao will be unbiased and objective?

what about someone who sells $1800 worth of supplements? do you think they will be objective about their necessity or value?

muddyclothes,

Check out Uma's post on her experience of doing the Cousen's diet and following the teachings of the Tree of Life. That plan didn't work for her, and I have known many people (even members of this forum) for whom the Rainbow Green diet didn't work.

The thing about people who do the high fat diet as proposed by Wolfe or Cousens is that they don't stay raw very long. A lot of the old timers on this forum are people who have figured out how to be 100% raw and make it work for themselves, and for the most part they aren't eating a high fat diet. When I was first becoming raw, I looked at what the people who had been 100% raw for over 20 years, and what was interesting was that they all tended to eat the same kind of raw diet.

You certainly have to figure out what works for you. I've seen many raw foodists quit the raw diet because either they got sick or they were beset with cravings for cooked starches. As much as people want to believe that carbohydrates are harmful, fattening, or dangerous, they are in fact a necessary nutrient, and they are the easiest energy source for the healthy body to utilize.

You tried the Cousens diet, and you were unable to stay raw. Perhaps that wasn't it for you.

Dear fresh,
I don't know where I communicated that I was offended. I said I was disappointed because what I was getting was a lot of putting down of someone you don't agree with.

I'm quite sure you are correct that there are people for whom the Rainbow Diet etc, did not work and they sometimes have a resentful tale to tell but the fact is that many HAVE benefited greatly from what Dr. Cousens and D. Wolfe had to say. I am not a follower of either of these two, I simply stated that I had heard Wolfe's talks and tried a few of his recommendations. I also did briefly try the Tree of Life. It didn't work for me mainly because I did not have the means to complete the entire treatment and I resolved to find a different method for myself. That does not negate the astounding amount of good he has done for others.

What I found disappointing was the idea of putting down their work so vehemently while you probably know very little about it and have not investigated them in a fair way. I don't feel the need to trash someone just because I'm following a different path. It's the most common response to feeling insecure.. put down anyone who doesn't see things your way by accusing them of being 100% mercenary. Almost sounds like a cult. This sort of attitude always makes me wary. I met Cousens and I have seen his house and the way he lives. Believe me, it is profoundly clear he is NOT in this for the money. Whether or not David Wolfe is misguided about his theories, I do not know, but I can tell you he is a sincere and very loving person.

I'm sure you have encountered much doubting and criticsm for your choice of following dr. Grahams' recommendations. This is always stressful but the answer is not to discredit others. If it works for you, splendid. At first I thought it sounded like a great idea but personally I cannot imagine myself consuming such massive amounts of fruit. But that's just me.

Can we put this to rest now? I didn't come here for an argument. I came here to get information.
peace,
Muddy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2007 11:12AM by muddyclothes.

Thank you, Jodi for letting me know this forum has much information and a variety of members using different raw food ideas. How smart of you to read lots of raw sites, and talk to many professionals rather than buy a lot of books. This is usually my method too but in this case I dove in head first by going to the Tree of Life as my intro to raw foods. That is a rather long tale for another time.

I came to this forum (and a few others) for the very reasons you stated. I want to hear from people who are able to stay raw and enjoy it.

It is quite a change but I really need a change. Yesterday I ate lots of fruit and some salads. I thought a lot about all the different changes I made to my diet since my 20s when I started believing something was wrong with me and I had to be fearful of my diet. As a kid and young adult I never thought about food or diet at all but I was vibrant, healthy, my weight was perfect and I had boundless energy. What happened?

muddyclothes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear fresh,
> I don't know where I communicated that I was
> offended. I said I was disappointed because what I
> was getting was a lot of putting down of someone
> you don't agree with.
>

i sometimes make statements as a warning about certain things.
i do not consider it putting someone down.

and i also don't think that it is good to take a position of - well, i've met this person, and he was a nice guy, so i can't say anything "negative" about his/her practices.

i have said nothing about the people in question Personally.

it's like saying something about a religious cult leader as a warning to a young person so that they don't get caught up in something that could be dangerous.

This has nothing to do with putting someone down.

certainly the people in question are lovely people.

that is not the point.

i think it is good and valid to state the good and the bad, especially in this area, when so many people are being mis-guided and struggling, just as you have.

> I'm quite sure you are correct that there are
> people for whom the Rainbow Diet etc, did not work
> and they sometimes have a resentful tale to tell
> but the fact is that many HAVE benefited greatly
> from what Dr. Cousens and D. Wolfe had to say.

yes, some people have benefited from their experience.
i specifically questioned the need and ethics of supplements and superfoods and their promotion. i did not make a blanket denunciation.


> What I found disappointing was the idea of putting
> down their work so vehemently while you probably
> know very little about it and have not
> investigated them in a fair way.

there was nothing vehement about it.
and i know quite a bit about them.

>I don't feel the
> need to trash someone just because I'm following a
> different path.

i did not trash anyone. i stated what i believe to be facts.

> It's the most common response to
> feeling insecure.. put down anyone who doesn't see
> things your way by accusing them of being 100%
> mercenary.

i am not insecure.
i did not say anyone was 100% mercenary.
stop inventing intent for me that is not there.


> Almost sounds like a cult. This sort of
> attitude always makes me wary.

you can't be serious.

> I met Cousens and I
> have seen his house and the way he lives. Believe
> me, it is profoundly clear he is NOT in this for
> the money.

once again, i am sure he is a wonderful person.
i made the clear and simple point that it is not a good thing to suggest that someone needs $1500 worth of supplements. that is all.
i said nothing about him being in it for the money.
i said follow the money.

>d Wolfe is misguided
> about his theories, I do not know, but I can tell
> you he is a sincere and very loving person.

where did i say anything about this?
it's irrelevant.

have you ever read Raw Eating by A.T. Hovannessian?
he discovered raw eating after his two children died.
he saved his own life
he then spent the rest of his life spreading the raw message.
then, many years ago, someone plagiarized his book and presented his words as his own. he protested against this practice, to no avail.

then mr. wolfe comes along many years later and does the same thing to this man, after his death.

then after much protesting by people, wolfe admitted it and put a small blurb about mr hovannessian in later copies of his book.

all the while putting forth ideas about words and ideas being free and available to anybody, and there's no such thing as plagiarism, etc.

> I'm sure you have encountered much doubting and
> criticsm for your choice of following dr. Grahams'
> recommendations.

i take in information from many sources, just as you are attempting to do.
i do not "follow" dr grahams recommendations.
i follow my own after synthesizing all the information i can find.
i question certain peoples motivations.

i did not direct you to graham because i follow him and i want you to do so and i am in a cult.

it is simply a good source of information and it's much easier than typing out hundreds of words to answer someone's questions.

> This is always stressful but the
> answer is not to discredit others.

i am not under stress.
i discredit others specific actions, for a good reason.

> Can we put this to rest now?

i wanted to respond to you.

>I didn't come here
> for an argument.

i am not arguing. i am presenting you with my position.

For a way of eating reputed to be quintessentially "natural" it sure engenders an enormous amount of conflict and struggle. Any have insight as to why that is?

One would think that this would be the easiest "diet" there is. Fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds. What's so hard about that? Where is the complication? Where the conflict? Where the rub?

Why, if this is the most natural diet a human being can eat, are people getting sick, conflicted, depressed and defensive? Are our instincts that messed up that "the most natural diet in the world" would cause this degree of difficulty?

Wouldn't "the most natural diet available to man" be natural, graceful, and effortless to do? Certainly struggles with habit, societal pressures, and re-structuring of the daily round can be expected with any change in lifestyle, but shouldn't the body itself feel itself at home at last?

I'm confused.

khale

because we are not In nature anymore, we are outside of Nature, for the most part.
therein lies the rub. imo.