Rethinking & Clarifying the Vitamin B12 Issue



By Dr Vivian V. Vetrano (http://roylretreat.com)



There is no such thing as a B12 deficiency, even in 100% raw vegan food eaters. They do not have to eat dirt, animal products, or take pills to secure coenzymes of B12. Bacteria in the intestinal tract make it for us, and the metabolically usable and necessary forms of coenzyme B12 are contained in unprocessed, fresh natural plant foods, particularly in nuts and seeds. The real problem in so-called B12 deficiency is a failure of digestion and absorption of foods, rather than a deficiency of the vitamin itself.



Vitamin B12 coenzymes are found in nuts and seeds as well as in many common greens, fruits, and many vegetables. If we ate 100 grams of green beans, beets, carrots, and peas we would have half of our so-called daily minimum requirement of Vitamin B12 coenzymes providing our digestion and absorption are normal. From Rodale's The Complete Book of Vitamins, page 236 we find the following clarification: “As you know, the B complex of vitamins is called a ‘complex’ because, instead of being one vitamin, it has turned out to be a large number of related vitamins, which appear generally in the same foods.”



A little publicized source of active Vitamin B12 coenzymes is from bacteria in the mouth, around the teeth, in the nasopharynx, around the tonsils and in the tonsilar crypts, in the folds at the base of the tongue, and in the upper bronchial tree. This source alone will supply sufficient quantities of Vitamin B12 coenzymes for the very small requirement of total vegetarians, especially considering that their needs for this vitamin are not as great as for those on conventional diets.



I have studied the Vitamin B12 issue thoroughly, and have learned that biochemists, neutraceutical scientists, and many writers mistakenly use the term Vitamin B12 for cyanocobalamin, THAT IS NOT USABLE BY THE BODY BUT which is in all vitamin B12 supplements. When speaking of Vitamin B12 they are referring to the semisynthetic Vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) that initially as contaminated with poisonous cyanide during its chemical extraction from animal tissues. Carbon columns are used during the extraction process and the carbon combines with nitrogen from the medium forming the poisonous cyanocobalamin, that scientists insist on calling Vitamin B12. The original method used to extract Vitamin B 12 from its sources included heating the medium in a weak acid, the addition of cyanide ion, and exposure to light. In this process the coenzymes were converted to cyanocobalamin, yet this was over looked. (Review of Physiological Chemistry, Harper, Harold A., Lange Medical Publications, New York, 1977, page l81. Also refer to Cobalamin: Biochemistry and Pathophysiology, Wiley. N. and F. Sicuteri, New York, 1972.) MOREOVER, in the manufacture of vitamin supplements, cyanide is added to the medium because the carbon and nitrogen are needed to form large molecules as are found in vitamins; and IN ADDITION they need it to extract the B12 from fermentation liquors and liver homogenates. Carbon is needed in great quantities when making vitamins or any other manufactured vitamin or substance that mimics the natural vitamin that normally contains a lot of carbon.



THE TWO VITAMIN B12 COENZYMES KNOWN TO BE METABOLICALLY ACTIVE IN MAMMALIAN TISSUES ARE 5-deoxyadenosylcobalamin and methylcobalamin (methyl-B12). When extracted in light, these two coenzymes undergo photolysis and are destroyed. Natural B12 is found solely in plants and animals, and that is the only form that can be called “coenzyme B12.” If an animal or individual is given cyanocobalamin the body removes the cyanide because it is not usable as a coenzyme and it is toxic. Then the cobalt of the former cyanocobalamin can combine with other substances that are not toxic and actually form Vitamin B12 coenzymes that are usable by the body. These normally existing Vitamin B12 coenzymes are labile and break down easily unless inside living tissue.



Potassium in the body can react with the cyanide found in cyanocobalamin – the “Vitamin B 12” – and form toxic potassium cyanide (KCN). Potassium cyanide is a poisonous compound used as a fumigant. This is one reason why the body jettisons the “Vitamin B 12” (i.e., cyanocobalamin) injections so rapidly. Within 24 hours most (about 90%) of the cyanocobalamin in supplements has been eliminated.



The names of cobalamins formed by the body or in a laboratory are: l. hydroxocobalamin if it combines with a hydroxyl ion (OH), and 2. aquocobalamin, when it combines with water. Cobalamin also combines with anions such as nitrite a form of nitrogen, chloride, and sulfur. These are not usable by the body. The two active coenzymes that can be formed in the body after stripping off the cyanide are 5’deoxyadenosylcobalamin, or adenosylcobalamin for short, and methylcobalamin. The problem is that the cyanide is toxic and makes many people sicker than they were before taking the supplement.



Cyanocobalamin is in every vitamin B12 supplement known because it is stable and less costly to manufacture. But it is not usable in the body. If the body has sufficient energy it may be able to offload the cyanide and benefit from the useful component. Mainly, what people experience after taking cyanocobalamin supplements is stimulation. The toxic effect of the cyanide triggers a rush of energy as the body works hard to excrete the poison, and this fools people into believing that the supplement has “worked” to heal them. Meanwhile, if their blood tests show an increase in B12, it mainly reflects the amount of the CYANOCOBALAMIN in the blood stream. The usable forms are carried into the cells and can’t be discovered by testing the blood as is the current practice. Blood tests are often inaccurate and, as previously stated, in the case of cyanocobalamin supplementation and B12 injections, about 90 % of it has been eliminated from the body in 24 hours.



Looking at it Hygienically, no Vitamin B12 therapy can cause a recovery from any so-called eficiency disease. It may only hide the symptoms and cannot give an individual health. When people report that their apparent B12 deficiency symptoms have been relieved by cyanocobalamin supplementation, they are mistaken. They are not getting usable Vitamin B12 coenzymes, and their bodies are forced to convert the cyanide form into the active forms, methylcobalamin, and adenosylcobalamin. This extra function stimulates but wastes nerve energy, and they are are actually getting worse, not better. They have not addressed the cause of their troubles.



In summary, vegans and raw fooders all have sufficient amounts of coenzyme B12 in their diets, and FROM THAT produced in their bodies. The most common basic cause of a natural cobalamin deficiency is a failure to digest, absorb and utilize the various cobalamins from food and from the intestinal tract as in the case of gastritis or gastroenteritis. The cause of malabsorption is commonly a gastrointestinal disorder and this was known by pathologists way back in the l800s. In this case, one's lifestyle must be assessed and brought into unison with the needs of the living organism.



Furthermore, absorption of the natural B12 coenzymes can take place in the mouth, throat, esophagus, bronchial tubes and even in the upper small intestines, as well as all along the intestinal tract. THIS DOES NOT INVOLVE THE COMPLEX ENZYME MECHANISM FOR ABSORPTION (INTRINSIC FACTOR) IN THE SMALL INTESTINE AS REQUIRED BY CYANOCOBALAMIN. THE COENZYMES ARE ABSORBED BY DIFFUSION FROM MUCOUS MEMBRANES.

www.rawfoodfarm.com

Deegarry, this Vetrano article is unfortunately completely bogus. Contrary to what is stated in the second paragraph, there is absolutely no B12 in nuts, seeds, green beans, beets, carrots, or peas. In this age of the internet, anyone can look that up for themselves on a nutritional website such as www.nutritiondata.com and see that those foods contain zero B12.

Notice Ms. Vetrano doesn't cite any reference for her claims that vegetarian foods ("especially nuts and seeds" are sources of B12. That's because there ARE NO existing sources.

It's well known that the biggest cause of B12 deficiency is losing the ability to absorb it. That doesn't mean you can get it from vegan foods.

It's not necessary to take a cyanocobalamin B12 supplement; the methylcobalamin supplements are readily available. If Ms. Vetrano had really "studied the B12 issue thoroughly" she would know that, and she wouldn't have wasted so much energy dissing the cyanocobalimin that most vegans have long since put aside.

If you haven't yet done so, check the thread called "Vitamin B12 Deficiency" for some info on B12 from long-time vegans who aren't looking to make some money off what they have to say.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2007 07:12PM by suncloud.

thank you for your information, I didn't think it was true, but wanted to know what others thought?

As my mother, who always says "Don't believe everything you read."

Your mother's a very wise woman. And good for you for putting that out there.

I think people should check for themselves everything they read here, including anything that I write, because besides the scams and the misinformation, there's always human error.

Right on Deegarry.

Dr Vetrano's experience matches my experience with the raw diet and B12.

I agree with the article, and so does the long-term raw food family the Taliferos, actually; it isn't just one person who thinks this way.

Force the change you want to see in the world through direct, socialist democracy!

[www.dreamingearth.net]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2007 10:37PM by dream earth.

Dear Bryan and Dream Earth,

I have attitude , so I think I'll just ask you right out: Which part of the Vetrano article do you agree with?

Do you believe that 100 grams of green beans, beets, carrots, and peas supply half our minimum daily requirements of B12? If so, can you refer us to a nutrition chart that cites that same data?

Do you have examples of duplicated unbiased study results that show there's enough B12 naturally found in the mouths of VEGANS (not meateaters) that will naturally prevent vegans from becoming deficient?

The rest of the Vetrano article (with the exception of the last paragraph) only refers to using cyanocobalamin as a supplement to correct deficiency. That whole section of the article is not even relevant for vegans who take the methylcobalamin, and it's not relevant at all in discerning whether or not vegan foods contain sufficient B12 or whether we produce absorbable B12 ourselves. Is it?

The last paragraph is probably accurate in stating that absorption of B12 can take place in the mouth, throat, bronchial tubes, esophagus, and small intestine, but since vegan foods don't contain enough B12 to prevent deficiency, how does that make any difference for vegans?

Bryan, you say you're speaking from your personal experience, but do you think you've been vegan long enough to use your personal experience as evidence? 5 years right?

Let's look at it philosophically for a moment. I kind of think that's really where both you and Dream Earth are coming from. It's a compassionate and worthy ideal to think that we humans should be able to survive as 100% vegans without supplementation. That doesn't necessarily make it true, but here's just one of many possiblilities:

Perhaps being vegan (without supplementation) is our true human DESTINY, but perhaps we humans, as a species, just haven't yet evolved to that ideal state of being. I mean look at all the wars and greed and ego we all have. Perhaps we need to WORK toward that state. Perhaps that's what's natural: the EVOLUTION of humankind toward that state.

Perhaps the peace-loving cows and deer have already earned their ability to live as herbivores, but we humans have not. Tigers probably haven't either. Why should we consider ourselves any better than they? At least, as a species, tigers don't go aroung killing for pleasure or for money. Maybe tigers should be the next vegan race, not humans.

Maybe once we humans have earned that state of being by living as much as we possibly can without harming the other beings, maybe then we'll have earned the right to be here as vegans without supplements.

I'm just throwing some philosophical possibilities our there. There's probably a million ways to fit views favorable to supplementation into a general compassionate scheme of things.

Basically though, we just don't know enough about the universal cosmos to apply our personal philosophies to reality. It's usually better to go the other way around. And in fact, maybe that's even why we're here on planet earth, groovin' with nature.

Philosophically, there is much room for debate, but IMO realistically, it's kind of like is there really global warming? We don't know all we need to know yet about global warming, AND we don't know all we need to know about B12. But we do know they both exist.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2007 01:11AM by suncloud.

Where do you think B12 found in animal products comes from? It doesn't come from the animal. It comes from bacteria. And that same bacteria grows in all animals, including humans.

How is it that herbivores and mammals that don't eat meat or animal products can not worry about B12?

If B12 deficiency were the cause of anemia, then only vegans should get anemia. But that is not the case, in fact, more non-vegans get it than vegans do. These non-vegans have no deficiency of B12 in their diet, however their digestive systems are compromised and they are unable to absorb the B12 in their bodies.

I know both raw and cooked vegans who have been vegan for over 25 years and they don't supplement and they are not having B12 related issues. Thats good enough for me. I can see that it may not be good enough for you. So supplement if you want. By the way, most articles say that B12 can last up 12-20 years in the body even with zero dietary B12. If this is indeed true, even vegans (who have been vegan for less than 12 years) shouldn't be having B12 related issues. But they are, as are the non-vegans. This seems to indicate that the issue is more of absorption rather than lack of presence.

Ok Bryan , here's my response.

-To your first paragraph:

Just because B12 may grow in all animals, that doesn't mean that every SPECIES of animals, even the healthy ones, can naturally access it from their own bodies as nutrition.

-To your 2nd paragraph:

Herbivores and animals that don't eat meat in their natural environment have different digestive systems than the digestive systems of humans and other all other primates. There is no primate in the wild, including the bonobos chimps, that does not ingest B12 from animal and/or insect sources.

-To your 3rd paragraph:

B12 deficiency is just ONE cause of anemia, not the ONLY cause. That explains why a meat-eater or a vegan can be anemic without having a B12 deficiency.

I agree that the lack of ability for a compromised digestive system to absorb B12 is the major cause of vitamin B12 deficiency. It is the major cause because most people are not vegan, and meateaters DO compromise their digestive systems. But it is not the ONLY cause. If it were, then vegans with B12 deficiency symptoms would not recover from their symptoms after just ORAL supplementation. They would ALL require shots. In fact, vegans do recover from oral supplementation as long as they haven't incurred permanent nerve damage. And possibly even meat-eaters whose digestive systems are not severely damaged might recover from oral doses, if the dose is high enough to allow enough B12 to be absorbed in a compromised digestive system.

-To your 4th paragraph:

Are your vegan friends perhaps ingesting enough B12 from fortified sources like fortified soy milk or fortified nutritional yeast (Much of the nutritional yeast is actually not fortified and therefore is not a reliable source of B12. Some say even the fortified nutritional yeast is not reliable, though I notice the Vegan Society says fortified foods can be reliable with some thought)? And how do you know that your vegan friends are NOT having B12 issues? Have they had their blood and their urinary mma tested? Symptoms can take a form that is not always recognized as stemming from B12 deficiency - especially if a deficient person is convinced that they cannot possibly be deficient. According to the Vegan Society, "There is however no entirely consistent and reliable set of symptoms..."

I completely agree with your statement that "...B12 can last up to 12-20 years in the body even with zero dietary B12." I went 15 years as a 100% vegan with ZERO B12 fortified foods (like nutritional yeast or soy milk) and ZERO B12 supplementation before I had symptoms. My husband went 21 years before supplementing, but he may possibly have some symptoms - an uncontrollable clenching of his jaw, throat and hands. But take another look at your statement. Just because a vegan CAN avoid deficiency for that long without supplementation doesn't mean that a vegan WILL avoid deficiency or even that MOST vegans WILL avoid deficiency. According to the Vegan Society, "...deficiency symptoms usually take five years or more to develop in (vegan) adults, though some people experience problems within a year. A very small number of individuals with no obvious reliable source appear to avoid clinical deficiency symptoms for 20 years or more."

However long it takes for a vegan to acquire deficiency is no indication of whether their deficiency is caused by lack of absorption through compromised digestion or lack of B12 in their diet.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

My main concern is actually with pregnant or young vegan mothers. According to the Vegan Society, "Infants typically show more rapid onset of symptoms than adults. B12 deficiency may lead to loss of energy and appetite and failure to thrive. If not promptly correctled, this can progress to coma or death. Again there is no entirely consistent set of symptoms. Infants are more vulnerable to permanent damage than adults."

The Vegan Society goes on to say, "The risk to these groups alone is reason enough to call on all vegans to give a consistent message as to the importance of B12 and to set a positive example. Every case of B12 deficiency in a vegan infant or an ill-informed adult is a tragedy and brings veganism into ill-repute."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2007 07:29AM by suncloud.

Suncloud, I don't agree with your reference to only the most conventional possible science or to your philosophical underpinnings. Your spiritual thought of "earning" collectively the right to be vegan has nothing to do with me; Karma is just a metaphor; it doesn't actually exist, and those of us who have never eaten meat simply are vegan or vegetarian animals without the philosophy coming in (like vegan feral children during war world II); though I don't think anyone who invades Poland is healthy. But actually, yes, I believe it is the psychological effects of being victimized as well as the disruption of the stomachs natural absorption that causes B-12 deficiencies. But if you're only going to beleive that if its written on the impoverished nutritiondata-dot-com then there is really nothing for us to talk about. Write a long convoluted response and be assured I won't read it.

Force the change you want to see in the world through direct, socialist democracy!

[www.dreamingearth.net]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2007 07:23AM by dream earth.

Hi Dream Earth.

Hi again Dream Earth,

Hope we can still be friends despite our disagreement about B12. I'm sure we have more in common than not in common. After all, we're both raw vegans. A wonderful thing!

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok Bryan , here's my response.
>
> -To your first paragraph:
>

good post suncloud.

by the way, from what i understand, vetrano eats or drinks dairy products.

anyone else know whether this is true or not?

:0 you guys get so passionate about this.
I am definatly sticking to the info in my last post about B12 because after consulting with registered dieticians, my doctor, and doing my own reading from trustworthy sources it all seems to be correct.

Hope you all come to some agreement. Smile!

suncloud,

B12 does not occur naturally in any animal cells. It all comes from bacteria. This bacteria lives in all animals, and last time I checked, humans are also animals. So it also lives in you and me.

So if you eat an animal product that has B12, that B12 came from bacteria.

Vegans are eating bugs. Its totally unavoidable. If you believe that herbivores are getting their B12 from insects, then since humans ingest insects (from food, in their sleep, simply from breathing), dietary B12 is unavoidable.

If you believe you need B12, then take it. However, just because other people believe they need some substance has never been a reason for my consumption of that substance.

This debating gets old pretty quick. I am currently in the process of practicing not debating.

Yes, these debates do get passionate. Hope that's OK. I think it can be kind of like sports. You play the game and when it's over, if everyone's a good sport, then everyone can still be friends. In debate, no one has to win or lose. Each person just gets to speak their mind.

But good for you for Bryan for practicing not debating! I haven't reached that point yet.

So.....

Yes, the B12 bacteria lives in all animals, but humans cannot access the B12 bacteria within their own bodies as usable nutrition, since the B12 bacteria is produced in their lower intestine where nutrients are not absorbed.

And.....

The amount of B12 available to vegans from ingesting insects as they breathe or as they eat foods containing insect larvae is not a sufficient source of B12. Wild primates ingest far more insect matter than what is inadvertantly ingested by human vegans.

In addition, wild primates ingest B12 by consuming portions of their own feces.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is an excerpt from an article from the 35th World Vegetarian Congress called "Food For All Our Futures":

"About 0.1% of (B12 stored in the liver) is lost per day by secretions into the gut as not all these secretions are reabsorbed."

"As B12 levels drop, the amount secreted into the gut decreases and the fraction reabsorbed increases, slowing the fall in blood B12."

"How fast B12 levels change depends on the balance between how much B12 is obtained from the diet, how much is secreted and how much is absorbed."

"Genetic variations in enzymes such as MTHFR determine how rapidly homocysteine will rise and when nervous system damage will begin as B12 levels fall."

"These variations explain why clinical B12 deficiency may arise in a year if initial stores are low and genetic factors unfavorable or may not appear for decades."

"In infants deficiency can appear much more quickly".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2007 08:25PM by suncloud.

nutrients can and are absorbed in the lower intestine ... at least thats what understand from the med journals from school ...it absorbs water and undigested nutrients that were missed in primary digestion . It is a secondary digestive process and also houses many different bacteria that break down molecules that cant be broken down by the body otherwise

i dont see any reason why a person with a healthy digestive system wouldnt be able to absorb their own b12 when neccesary ...

...of course though ..lol how many of us actually have a healthy digestion system =)

also im kinda wondering about this statement:

"How fast B12 levels change depends on the balance between how much B12 is obtained from the diet, how much is secreted and how much is absorbed."

...if the consensus is that b12 cant be obtained by a vegan diet then isnt this statement kinda of pointless? if it cant be obtained by diet then its not gonna change by diet ..only by what is secreted and absorbed? or am i totally missing what it says lol

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2007 11:13AM by Jgunn.

Jodi,

There is no consensus around B12 being obtained by the vegan diet. In the orginal post, Vetrano goes against the mainstream ideas around B12 and says that vegans DON'T need to supplement.

Jodi,

Thanks for your input, and for everyone else's comments too. And thanks to Deegarry for this thread.

The author (Steven Walsh) was making the point that B12 obtained from the diet (whatever diet) is one factor in determining how FAST the levels of B12 will change. Therefore, if the diet includes no B12 or very low levels of B12, that will be one factor in how long it takes to bring on a state of B12 deficiency - the other 2 factors being how much is secreted (by stores in the liver) and how much is absorbed (by the digestive system).

Remember, the amount stored in the liver is slowly dropping as it's continually secreted for use by the body (or so the theory goes). If the amount stored in the liver is not replenished by the diet, deficiency eventually results. How FAST it happens depends on how much B12 is in the diet (to replenish the stores in the liver), how much is secreted (from the stores) by the liver, and how much of the secreted B12 is being absorbed into the blood stream.

It's interesting what you say about nutrients being absorbed by the lower intestine. According to the article I quoted above (by Steven Walsh), the B12 is located too low in the intestine to be absorbed. I wonder if part of the lower intestine can absorb nutrients, and part cannot, or maybe if B12 - as a microorganism - is not recognized in the lower intestine as a nutrient, and therefore it's screened out, or some other possibility.

Or, perhaps Bryan and Dream Earth are right, and Steven Walsh is wrong. Perhaps all B12 deficiency is caused by an inablility for a compromised digestive system to absorb it. But then how would that explain how vegan infants have a higher risk of B12 deficiency than nonvegan infants? Could it be that their digestive systems are not yet fully functional?

Maybe later I'll try to email Steven Walsh and see if he can further explain his statement about B12 being too low in the intestine to be absorbed.

Thanks Bryan for your above post. I'm probably very much in agreement with you and Dream Earth that it's a good thing we raw vegans DON'T automatically go for the conventional "wisdom". If we did, we probably wouldn't be enjoying the many, many advantages of being raw food vegans. Kudos for the nonconventionalites!

My worry is that raw foodology, like so much in life, has the potential to create it's own "conventional" wisdoms, and if those aren't based on informed choices, that would be a shame.

Good for this forum, and thanks for everything you do Bryan to keep it going!



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2007 09:04PM by suncloud.

an idea for why vegan infants might have b-12 issues is because we are born with an inheritance of cellular toxin and disease. Its the same reason why infants get very severe illness. extreme high fever etc...which is usually only suppressed by the incluision of cooked foods and drugs. IMO its corollary is when raw foodists develop defficiencey, you can generally link it to an issue of cleansing (they of course cannot even reach the level of an infant even if they tried), NOT of INTAKE. simple proof of such is individuals that DO thrive on extremely limited diets (as long as careful attention has been placed on cleansing, over a period of comfortable transition).

to me its either compromised digestion or inproper cleansing and elimination of wastes and of course the biggies: stress + helpless/failure complex. But I certainly don't think people should NOT supplement because they belive they are EATING the right foods. Can't eat your way to raw food heaven, or health. and certainly you can develop 'defficiencies' that should not be ignored. thats the main b-12 lesson.

Thanks Bryan i wasnt sure if i was reading it that way or not lol

Suncloud as far as i know there isnt anypart of the body that cant absorb something to a certain degree no matter how little, the hardest tissues in our bodies, bones, teeth , nails, skull plates can absorb nutrients and toxins, including any part of the intestine, unless of course its been compromised by poor health etc , so id be interested to hear what Steven Walsh has to say about that, theres nothing that i know of in our body that is impervious, if you look at anything on a micro-cellular level .. there are channels througout all tissue no matter how miniscule they are there

im certain we all absorb things differently though ... one time my exhusband and I got into a car accident and we both broke a leg .. he was a good 150lbs heavier then me , adn we were both on the same medication for pain ...he would withen 30minutes be releived from the pain whereas me id have to take 3 times as much and still be in pain 2-3 hours later when it finally kicked in

some people say they have a lower or higher tolerance to drugs .. is it that or is it him and I absorbed things into our tissues at different rates? i never could figure it out lol .. just one of those weird anomolies about human beans i guess

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2007 02:45AM by Jgunn.

Well, I sent an email to Dr. Steven Walsh. He's considered by The Vegan Society to be the expert on B12. Jgunn, in my email to Steven Walsh I quoted your entire paragraph where you say "nutrients can and are absorbed in the lower intestine...." I compared that to one of Dr. Walsh's statements and asked him if he could shed some light on this point.

I hope we hear from him. I really think this point is crucial in any discussion of B12.

yea id be curious to know if its true .. IF why would that particular body part be unable to absorb b12 or is it just b12 or any nutrient at all ...

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Well, no word yet from Dr. Walsh, but meanwhile, here's an excerpt from an article found on this website called, "Vitamin B12 Importance" by Dr. Gabriel Cousens:

"...we do produce B-12 in our large intestine, but since this B-12 is produced in the area below were B-12 is reabsorbed, it is really not available for absorption. Some people have argued that a lot of species of lower mammals do not need B-12. The reason why this is true is that a lot of species that are primarily vegetarian eat their own feces. Human research also has shown if you eat your feces, you will get enough B-12. Dr. Herbert sponsored research in England where volunteers with a documented B-12 deficiency were fed B-12 extractions made from their own feces. It cured their B-12 deficiency. So, there is a natural vegan way to do it. It may not be the most tasteful way however."

Then there is this from VeganHealth.org:

"Given that many otherwise healthy vegans develop B12 deficiency when not supplementing their diets with B12, intestinal bacteria cannot be relied upon to prevent B12 deficiency in vegans."

and this very interesting information from The Vegetarian Society's Information Sheet on Vitamin B12:

"Bacteria pesent in the large intestine are able to synthesize B12. In the past, it has been thought that the B12 produced by these colonic baceria could be absorbed and utilised by humans. However, the bacteria produce B12 too far down the intestine for absorption to occur, B12 not being absorbed through the colon lining.

"Human faeces can contain significant B12. A study has shown that a group of Iranian vegans obtained adequate B12 from unwashed vegetables which had been fertilised with human manure. Faecal contamination of vegetables and other plant foods can make a significant contribution to dietary needs, particularly in areas where hygiene standards may be low."

From the same article, with the info in parentheses from me:

"Vitamin B12 is excreted in the bile and is effectively reabsorbed. This is known as enterohepatic circulation (the name for the process referred to by Dr. Walsh)...People on diets low in B12 including vegans and some vegetarians, may be obtaining more B12 from reabsorption than from dietary sources. Reabsorption is the reason it can take over 20 years for deficiency disease to develop in people changing to diets absent in B12. In comparison, if B12 deficiency is due to failure in absorption it can take only 3 years for deficiency disease to occur."

That may explain why vegan infants, who have little to no B12 to reabsorb, are most at risk for B12 deficiency.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2007 09:02PM by suncloud.

I am so glad I posted this question, because I learned a lot that I didn't know! You opened my eyes to new things. I know I'm new, but I really see that you all know each other for awhile!

suncloud interesting posts

i went off my bshots about 6 or 7 weeks ago i think now ..around abouts

now im not sure what to think lol

except for the one part where it says


is really not available for absorption

this confuses me , it doesnt seem like an ABSOLUTE statement to me

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Maybe you could just get your mma retested and go from there.

Shots seem to be mostly for (A) people who can't absorb B12 when they eat it, or ( as a temporary measure for people who can absorb B12 but haven't been eating it.

If you're in the ( category, maybe you'd do just fine now on the supplements.

If you're in the (A) category, my understanding is it's somewhat difficult to diagnose that you're unable to absorb it, unless you do a new test where they attach carbon 14 to an oral dose of B12, and then see it can be traced to your blood (google "UC Davis, B12, Carbon 14".

Maybe ask your doctor if you can try taking the supplements and see if that doesn't normalize your mma.

Anyway, that might be an option you could try so you wouldn't have to keep taking shots. Maybe if your doctor insists on giving you the shots, you could get a second opinion.

i dont know lol ive been taking bshots every few weeks for a few years now ..if anything id think from what ive read ive built up some sort of storeage by now lol and i supplemented with bcomplex for a couple of decades before that

all in alln theres so much conflicting info out there

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Well,Suncloud, I think you have a lot of useful thoughts on the subject. Personally, I started using B12 dots, alittle pink tab you take sublingually for about 2 mos now. My husband(a meat eater) also uses them for energy. We both have some degree of digestive histories, and feel it may help us. It can't hurt, as it is a water sol. vitamin. They are quite inexpensive too.I am "clinically" not anemic from blood test, but some times feel lightheaded and anxious. It seems to help, even if Psychologic! Janice

All I can say is NUTRITIONAL YEAST NUTRITIONAL YEAST NUTRITIONAL YEAST