I've been one of those anti-honey vegans for nearly 7 years, but so many raw people use honey, and in a moment of weakness, I bought a jar of raw honey from a local apiary. It's delicious, and I've missed eating it for so many years, but I feel like I should feel guilty about the bees. I do, a little. My husband is a little disturbed that I'm going back on my beliefs, and kind of gave me a hard time about it, so perhaps I should research the honey issue more. The apiary I got the honey from claims to only take the "surplus" from the hives. Is this hooey? Does anyone have either pro or con links regarding honey and bee-keeping practices?

Also, specifically Really Raw Honey...I saw some in a health food store and it looked interesting. Does anyone use this?

I realize this is a vegan forum, so perhaps I shouldn't be talking about honey here...I hope this doesn't offend anyone.

Hello HV, Some vegans eat honey and some don't. My friend reminded me that John the Baptist from the Bible ate raw honey and carob.

I used to eat raw honey. It was a life saver going from sugar. When I moved, the honey was more expensive and I slowed stopped eating so much of it. Now, I don't buy it do to the cost and I don't crave the sweet as much. It's probably not good for the Candida either but anyhow, it does have beneficial properties.

If you find it benefits your body, why not go with it? Faith has to be proven.

I tried Really Raw Honey. It's nice but expensive. If you can get some locally, that would be better environmentally.

Good luck. Therese

I use raw honey sometimes, but not often. I'm wondering how Agave tastes? How do you typically use Agave and what does that cost? I just saw a someone make a raw pie/cake recipe using agave..so I'm thinking it might be a better raw fooders choice then honey.

Love,
Prism

Before going raw I used grade b maple syrup and rice syrup only for sweetening. Agave was just too sweet for me then and I really didn't see that it had any nutritional benefit so I didn't bother with it.

Now it seems like agave and honey are my only choices if I'm going to be 100% raw. Raw agave and raw local honey cost about the same going by the HFS cost, although the honey is really cheap straight from the apiary ($25 a gallon!).

I went through a bottle of agave last month and it tastes pretty honey-like. It just seems pointless, nutritionally. Maybe it's not. I need to look into that.

AFAIK because honey is made by bees, its not vegan but just fine for vegetarians.

As far as sweeteners go, Stevia is becoming more and more popular. It is also butritious because it comes from the Stevia plant, and AFAIK you can grow Stevia and use its leafs directly in whatever dish you are making.

I went through the same thing. I finally decided to have it once in a blue b/c after taking many factors into consideration. www.thegardendiet.com has some videos where they talk about raw honey that is sold by vegan bee keepers and stuff like that. The video is sold on their 'Natural Paradigms' Channel and it is a video about holiday meals.

They call themselves raw vegans and they use raw honey so they may have more stuff on it.


www.inaia.com

I'm a big agave fan! It tastes like a cross between runny honey and maple syrup. I usually use it to sweeten smoothies or nut milk drinks. I don't think of it as being especially healthy, it's just a 'safe' + raw vegan alternative to sugars and sweeteners.

I remember seeing a video of Ani Phyo on YouTube mentioning a really safe vegan friendly honey for one of her sweet-based recipes. It was an American company, I think.

The whole reason for us vegans not eating honey is we don't believe that bees were 'put' here for us to get honey from i.e. the active farming methods used by big companies where creatures are exploited and inevitably killed. I personally don't see anything wrong with using whatever is left over from natural hives, as long as no bees are harmed in the process. Vegans don't agree with wearing silk (the silk worms are killed via an extreme heating process to get 'better' silk), but there are businesses in India that will harvest the abandoned cocoons to get the silk, without killing any of the creatures. There's always a way

I personally think that "really raw" honey is better than agave. Agave always gives me nausea, sometimes even makes me vomit. Honey, the kind with propolis, doesnt do this to me. Bees make the honey, but I dont consider it to be an animal product. Still, the best is to use no extra sweeteners at all, none of them seem to go down to well... and they're too sweet! Try using dates instead.

My main concern as a vegan, of course, is the treatment of bees. Which I know nothing about. Beekeepers can claim anything, especially if they know what you want to hear. Supposedly the apiary near me (and many others) only take the surplus because bees make much more than they need. But still, I wonder.

If I cut down my use of sweeteners to what I used before going raw, my jar of honey will last for months. I can switch back to maple syrup for the kids, although I dunno...they've been really enjoying the "Honey-Nut Cheeri-Oats" I've been making them for breakfast. I guess I can start calling them "Maple-Nut Cheeri-Oats" instead.

HV, I maple syrup is not raw. It is cooked. I heard that chemicals have to be used even with the organic kind. Many stay away from maple syrup. I myself do not use it at all even though I like the taste of maple syrup and spent part of my childhood in Michigan.

If you want sweet outside of Agave, Dates, or Honey, you can use Stevia leaf but some don't like the taste of it.

For myself, I have gotten away from alot of sweeteners outside of eating fruits/juices, including dates.

its not just an issue of ethical treatment

honey as well dairy, are animal *products* meant to be used, consumed etc..by their own species.

>>The apiary I got the honey from claims to only take the "surplus" from the
>>hives. Is this hooey? Does anyone have either pro or con links regarding honey
>>and bee-keeping practices?

if you have a cow, that has surplus milk, and just loved to give it away, is it now good for enough for human vegans?


if you feel it contains vital nutrients that your body can synthesize...then go out in the field, knock at one of the hives and see if its worth the effort


buzz


that said, as a transitional sweetner, its prolly better then the rest listed. yes

from an ethical point of view ...

its nearly impossible not to harm or even kill at least a few bees in the hive... to calm them down they are often *smoked* to render them stoned and docile so the honey can be robbed from them

i agree as a transitional thing its probably better then most other things



read more about this here [www.vegetus.org]

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Try Agave nectar, I quite like it personally although I never seem to buy any lol. The problem with honey is that it is an unbalanced sugar, I agree with Arnold Ehret on that one, when I was transitioning to vegan it seemed to give me that strange feeling sugar rush like white refined sugars so I cut it out, and the bees are important of course!

Phil.

--------------------------------------------------

"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it" (Chinese Proverb)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2007 08:46AM by jadedshade.

As a vegan ... I definitely stay completely away from honey and any bee products (very, very easy as I never liked the taste of it anyway and totally prefer raw agave etc instead).

Einstein calculated that humanity would only be able to exist on this planet for 4 years if the bees died out (other scientists have calculated it as approx max 6 years). They are so vital to pollinating our food sources. (So ... bees definitely deserve a huge amount of respect and care). So unless humanity plans to go 'Breatharian' ... they need to be careful with what they do to bees. Many bees have been dying recently. Some believe that mobile phones etc are affecting them greatly and it is getting serious. There have been various e-mails going around the U.K. on the subject recently.

Also, in recent years there have been crop circle formations here in the U.K. looking like bees. For example:

[www.lucypringle.co.uk]


Here is a very interesting link from the U.K. Vegan Society about the Vegan aspect of using bee products:
[www.vegansociety.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2007 02:07PM by vegan john.

"Also, in recent years there have been crop circle formations here in the U.K. looking like bees. For example:

[www.lucypringle.co.uk] "

How perfect would it be if there was an alien invasion... and they were all bees :-D

"Uhhhh, just kidding..." last words of bill smith, beekeeper

Why not dates? Me thinks dates are yummier.

Gosia


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

Honey, while it may not be vegan is a natural food. Agave is a vegan food, byt is a highly processed food, and may not be good for you health.

You decide what is more important: Being Vegan or Your Health. For me, the answer is clear: My health.

Here is an article I wrote about agave:

from:

[www.living-foods.com]

The Truth about Agave Syrup:
Not as Healthy as You May Think

by John Kohler

A relatively recent trend in raw food preparation is the use of agave syrup (also called agave nectar) as sweetener is called for in raw recipes. I am often asked about my views on this sweetener.

When I first switched to a raw food diet in 1995, agave syrup was unknown and was NOT USED IN RAW FOODS! I first learned about agave syrup back in 1999 or 2000 at a trade show for the health food industry, which I attend regularly to keep up with the latest in the health and nutrition field. I asked several questions, got some samples, and inquired on how the company processed the agave syrup. At that time, I learned that it was processed at roughly 140 to 160 degrees Fahrenheit, so I certainly didn’t consider it a raw food by any means. Just like agave, some people consider maple syrup a raw food, but all maple syrup is heat-treated and is therefore not raw at all.

Unfortunately, there are no “raw labeling laws.” Anyone, anywhere, at any time can put “RAW” on their label and to them it can be supposedly raw since it is made from a “raw” material or simply not roasted. Just because it says “RAW” doesn’t necessarily mean that it was processed at a temperature under 118 degrees and still has all its enzymes, nutrients, and “life force” intact. For example, when you notice the difference between raw carob powder and roasted carob powder in the store, it is my understanding that the “raw” carob powder has been heated to about 250 degrees, whereas the “roasted” carob powder has been heated to about 450 degrees. The additional heat applied to the “roasted” carob powder causes the carob to “carmelize,” thus making it darker in appearance and different in taste as compared to the “raw” carob powder. Some stores sell “truly raw” carob powder, it has a more chalkier texture than supposedly “raw” carob powder. Jaffe Bros in Valley Center, California is a source of the “truly raw” carob powder. There are several raw food snack bars that say “RAW” but have ingredients such as cooked cocoa powder (that can’t be raw) and cashew nuts (most of which are not truly raw).

Let’s suppose for arguments sake, and to give agave the benefit of the doubt, that even with “new” technology companies are somehow able to process agave syrup below 118 degrees so it could be considered actually “raw”. We still need to ask the question, is it good for us? Some foods, even if they truthfully are raw, may not actually be HEALTHY. Based on what I have learned about agave syrup, I believe it to be one of these foods.

My answer to the question, “Is agave nectar good for us?” would be “NO” based on my research. Here is a sample of my findings:

Agave Syrup is not a “whole” food. It is a fractionated and processed food. Manufacturers take the liquid portion of the agave plant and “boil” it down, thus concentrating the sugar to make it sweet. This is similar to how maple “sap” that comes directly from a tree is heated and concentrated to make maple “syrup.” Agave Syrup is missing many of the nutrients that the original plant had to begin with.
Agave Syrup was originally used to make tequila. When Agave Syrup ferments, it literally turns into tequila. The enzymatic activity therefore MUST be stopped so that the syrup will not turn into tequila in your cupboard. Raw or not, if there is no enzymatic activity, it is certainly not a “live” food. As Raw Foodists, we want the enzymes intact.
According to my research, there are three major producers of agave syrup. Some of these companies also have other divisions that make Tequila. For the most part, agave syrup is produced in the Guadalajara region in Mexico. There are those within the industry who I have spoken to at various trade shows who say that some of the agave syrup is “watered down” with corn syrup in Mexico before it is exported to the USA. Why is this done? Most likely because Agave Syrup is expensive, and corn syrup is cheap.
Agave Syrup is advertised as “low glycemic” and marketed towards diabetics. It is true, that agave itself is low glycemic. We have to consider why agave syrup is “low glycemic.” It is due to the unusually high concentration of fructose (90%) compared to the small amount of glucose (10%). Nowhere in nature does this ratio of fructose to glucose occur naturally. One of the next closest foods that contain almost this concentration of glucose to fructose is high fructose corn syrup, which may contain up to 80% fructose. Even though fructose is low on the glycemic index, there are numerous problems associated with the consumption of fructose in such high concentrations as found in concentrated sweeteners:
A. Fructose appears to interfere with copper metabolism. This causes collagen and elastin being unable to form. Collagen and elastin are connective tissue which essentially hold the body together.1 A deficiency in copper can also lead to bone fragility, anemia, defects of the arteries and bone, infertility, high cholesterol levels, heart attacks and ironically enough an inability to control blood sugar levels.2

B. Research suggests that fructose actually promotes disease more readily than glucose. This is because glucose is metabolized by every cell in the body, and fructose must be metabolized by the liver. 3 Tests on animals show that the livers of animals fed large amounts of fructose develop fatty deposits and cirrohosis of the liver. This is similar to the livers of alcoholics.

C. “Pure” isolated fructose contains no enzymes, vitamins or minerals and may rob the body of these nutrients in order to assimilate itself for physiological use.4

D. Fructose may contribute to diabetic conditions. It reduces the sensitivity of insulin receptors. Insulin receptors are the way glucose enters a cell to be metabolized. As a result, the body needs to make more insulin to handle the same amount of glucose.5

E. Consumption of fructose has been shown to cause a significant increase in uric acid. An increase in uric acid can be an indicator of heart diease.6

F. Fructose consumption has been shown to increase blood lactic acid, especially for people with conditions such as diabetes. Extreme elevations may cause metabolic acidosis.7

G. Consumption of fructose leads to mineral losses, especially excretions of iron, magnesium, calcium and zinc compared to subjects fed sucrose.8

H. Fructose may cause accelerated aging through oxidative damage. Scientists found that rats given fructose had more cross-linking changes in the collagen of their skin than other groups fed glucose. These changes are thought to be markers for aging.9

I. Fructose can make you fat! It is metabolized by the liver and converts to fat more easily than any other sugar. Fructose also raises serum triglycerides (blood fats) significantly.10

Agave Syrup and other concentrated sweeteners are addictive, so you end up trading a cooked addiction (eating candy bars or cookies) for a “raw” addiction which is not much better. Eating concentrated sweeteners makes it harder to enjoy the sweet foods we should be eating – whole fresh fruit since they don’t seem as sweet by comparison.
Whole fruits generally contain a much smaller amount of fructose compared to sucrose and glucose. In addition, fruits contain vitamins, minerals, phytonutrients, fiber, and other nutrients. Our bodies are designed to digest a complete “package” of nutrition that appears in whole, fresh, ripe fruits. Could nature be wrong? For example, it’s always better to eat fruits whole or blend them rather than juice them. When you juice fruits you remove the fiber which helps to slow down the absorption of the sugars. Concentrated sweeteners also contain no fiber and have much greater concentrations of simple sugars than are found in fresh fruit or even juices.

Now that you have a better understanding about Agave Syrup, hopefully the companies selling “raw” agave won’t dupe you. They are out to make a buck, which in this case is unfortunately at the expense of your health. If you are making a “raw” recipe and it does require a concentrated sweetener, I have some recommendations for some better options to use instead of agave: (Listed in order of preference.)

1. Use ripe fresh fruits. Ripe fruits contain nutrients, fiber and water, a complete package, as nature intended. I find that ripe and organic fruits are usually sweetest.

2. Use fresh whole stevia leaves. Stevia is an herb that actually tastes sweet but contains no sugar. This herb can be very hard to find fresh, so I personally grow my own. If fresh leaves are not available, get the whole dried leaves or the whole leaf powder. Avoid the white stevia powder and the stevia liquid drops as they have been highly processed.

3. Use dried fruits. If you need a “syrup” consistency, just soak the dried fruits in some water and blend them up with the same soak water. Dates, figs, and prunes are some of the sweetest dried fruits that tend to work well in recipes. Try wet Barhi dates blended with a little water for an amazing maple syrup substitute. Please note: Since there are no raw labeling standards, some dried fruit may be dried at higher than 118 degrees, and thus, not really raw. If you want to ensure you are eating really raw dried fruit, it is best do dehydrate it yourself.

4. Raw Honey is a concentrated sweetener, and although not recommended, in my opinion it is better than agave syrup because it is a whole food and occurs naturally in nature. Of course, honey is not vegan and that may be a concern for some. I recommend purchasing local honey from a beekeeper.

Other “concentrated sweeteners” that are often seen in raw food recipes include:

1) Maple Syrup which is not raw and heat processed. If it is not organic, it may also contain formaldehyde and other toxic chemicals.

2) Sucanat or evaporated cane juice is pure dried sugar cane juice. Unfortunetly this is processed at a temperature above 118 degrees and therefore can’t be considered raw.

3) Yacon Syrup is a syrup from the root of the yacon plant in South America. It is once again, a concentrated sweetener processed at a temperature of up to 140 degrees farenheight.

The moral of this article: Eat whole fresh fruits and vegetables, they are always best. Always question processed and concentrated foods that are not found in nature, even if “raw”.

References:

1. Fields, M, Proceedings of the Society of Experimental Biology and Medicine, 1984, 175:530-537.

2. Klevay, Leslie, Acting Director of the U.S. Agriculture Department’s Human Nutrition Research Center, Grand Forks, N.D.

3. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, November 2002 Vol. 76, No. 5, 911-922.

4. Appleton, Nancy Ph.D., Fructose is No Answer For a Sweetener, [www.mercola.com].

5. H. Hallfrisch, et al.,The Effects of Fructose on Blood Lipid Levels, American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 37: 5, 1983, 740-748.

6. J. MacDonald, Anne Keyser, and Deborah Pacy, Some Effects, in Man, of Varying the Load of Glucose, Sucrose, Fructose, or Sorbitol on Various Metabolites in Blood, American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 31 (August 1978)): 1305-1311.

7. Hallfrisch, Judith, Metabolic Effects of Dietary Fructose, FASEB Journal 4 (June 1990): 2652-2660.

8. A. E. Bergstra, A. G. Lemmens, and A. C. Beynens, Dietary Fructose vs. Glucose Stimulates Nephrocalcinogenesis in Female Rats, Journal of Nutrition 123, no. 7 (July 1993): 1320-1327.

9. Roger B. Mc Donald, Influence of Dietary Sucrose on Biological Aging, American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 62 (suppl), (1995): 284s-293s.

10. H. Hallfrisch, et al.,The Effects of Fructose on Blood Lipid Levels, American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 37: 5, 1983, 740-748.

About the author, John Kohler has been on the living and raw foods diet for nearly a decade; he turned to living foods for healing from a life threatening-illness (spinal meningitis) and has enjoyed dynamic health ever since. One of Johns goals is to educate the world about the power of living and raw foods. He is the founder and webmaster of the largest living and raw food website on the internet, www.living-foods.com, and www.rawfoodsupport.com. John is also the number one expert on raw foods appliances and gadgets in the world. He is widely sought out and regularly speaks and instructs at many raw food festivals and events. His area of expertise include recipe demos with 5-7 ingredients or less, young coconut recipes, traveling while raw, raw food appliances, successful transition to the raw foods diet, and the importance of a fresh organic whole foods diet. He believes that by using fresh, organic, and whole ingredients, that simple, healthy, and delicious recipes can be made with few ingredients and without the use of salt, oil, spices, refined sweeteners or chemical additives. He is known for his pragmatic approach to raw foods and has coached and helped thousands of people to incorporate more fresh raw fruits and vegetables into their diet. John is also available to individual raw food coaching.

Thanks for the reality check, everyone. Like I said in the original post, we haven't used honey in many years, since we became vegan. I'm not sure why I faltered in my resolve there. I'm just not used to having cravings at all, *ever*, so I've never really had to face one down. I suppose it could have been worse.

My husband and kids are not 100% raw (except my 9mo, who is only on breastmilk, which is raw , more like 50-80%, so grade b maple syrup is something they use because they like it, plus they can get the extra iron and calcium from it. And we love dates and use pounds of them a week. I was mostly wanting a liquid sweetener for my almond milk and stuff. I'll just use agave when I need a liquid sweetener.

Raw honey is full of pathogenic microrganisms; it is not the best "for anyone's health." To do the best "for your health" is not to bother with a "sweetener" in the first place. Fresh or dried fruits are really enough for a recipe; beyond that, I know I personally don't bother with sweetening things in my daily life; I eat whole foods.

yeah really..what do you sweeten anyway..something that tastes like gunk!

I have in the past eaten that honey/propolis(sp?)/jelly stuff that comes in an opaque container, with a spoon. I can SEE choosing that over a bulk bin of oats if you were locked in a natural foods store for eternity..the texture was unlike anything in the fruit/vegetable kingdom. like fatty sugar.