Its interesting that since I started posting here, and got thinking about raw foods again, I am recalling some painful memories. I found that some of my most painful memories in childhood and teen years have been direcly or indirectly food related. The other painful memories deal with sexuality, but I won't cover those here, as this is a raw food board.

My first painful memory was in grade school, and how the class had some lessons about sugar and tooth decay. Even demonstrating how beverages eat away at teeth. (using a babytooth sitting in various beverages. I even knew back then that this wasn't real, as I said, "but we brush and eat other things, it just doesn't sit there in soda)

Later that week we planned a class party, and one student (the class bully) rallied the class together to get punch, donuts and cookies. I raised my hand in objection. The teacher asked what was wrong, and naturally I said "we learned earlier this week that sugar isn't good for us". The teacher said, you've been outvoted, and nobody avoids sugar all the time. Its strange, but I suddenly can remember too many details, and it wasn't until now that I realized how painful that was, and what a blow it was for me against the school system. Kind of made me loose some faith in it. All the students just looked back at me rather blankly and coldy like I was crazy. But now I realize that perhaps nobody wanted to appear as an outcast like I became, and also not vote against the bully.amazingly enough however, some students later in the year commented on how beautiful and white my teeth were, and wished theirs looked like mine.

Later, in high school, I went on a special diet to control acne. Man did that ever cause a lot of stir, and it really wasn't even that far out there, but it did make a lot of people upset, because I told them again that certain foods were not good. It wasn't raw, but I felt I was on to something as I did see significant improvements in my skin. Many years later, people still comment on these things...and its been over 20 years.

I hate feeling like an outcast. But it seems to happen more often than not. Even in my current situation I encounter that. And all I do is avoid certain things, and I don't lecture, I learned to just give a minimal answer and not engage. But sometimes it has caused a great deal of compromise on my part, its not fun being forced into doing things I don't agree with not to stick out too much, hurt feelings, and to be able to 'network'. The feeling I have is much more subtle, but I still feel outcast, even when people remark in awe that I look about 20 years younger than they expected. I don't understand then, what is the big deal?

i know how you feel about compromising so much. it feels logical at the time but later i find i look back on those situations and feel like i have sold myself out and then i feel like i let myself down. its a rotten feeling.

take pleasure in being an outcast in this world.

Food has become such a social part of our culture. When we don't "join" in what others are eating, it becomes somewhat of a social stigma. It's crazy, but that's the way it is. I don't give explanations, just say, "no thanks" or substitute if possible, without telling anyone "why". If someone asks, I'll tell...but then they still think you're "different" if you're choosing to do something that everyone else is doing. As individuals, we tend to do this to others is many ways...not just food. We don't tend to embrace individuality or uniqueness. As for me, I'm trying to color outside the lines and allow others the freedom to do the same.

mislu


<<The feeling I have is much more subtle, but I still feel outcast, even when people remark in awe that I look about 20 years younger than they expected. I don't understand then, what is the big deal?>>

i don't understand either, what IS the big deal?


<<But sometimes it has caused a great deal of compromise on my part, its not fun being forced into doing things I don't agree with not to stick out too much, hurt feelings, and to be able to 'network'.>>

i don't get it. who is FORCING you? its just not possible unless someone spoon feeds you a pizza or a piece of pork

Confidence is not something that will be spread out on a plate and handed to you with a fork and spoon

its something that you must forge within

until then, you WILL be outcast, because you have already rejected yourself by feeling like other people are "FORCING' you to be like them

u need to learn how to stand alone first
before u can learn to hang with others with integrity

i'm not trying to be preachy or rude but from your post , it seems like you are blaming everyone for how you feel

no one FORCES you to feel any particular way

or do anything that u don't wish to do

stop being a mouse, be a lion

and ROARRRRRRR!!

hate me if u want ( i don't care) but that's just the way i see it

It sounds to me like she's just trying to work out some old feelings and being 'witnessed' is a very important part of the human experience. There's no need to critique a person when they're 'sharing' cuz it's not out there for that reason.

aquadecoco:


yes and no


YES: we all feel negative feelings from time to time, that is normal and natural and there is NOTHING wrong with talking about it nor did i allude to it being wrong


NO: if she wants to just post to have people "witness" to her, then no response is needed at all

someone actually had to point out to me certain things to change my thinking and i will be forever indebted to them ...cuz they put their necks out ... knowing full well that it could be bitten off..

if u want me to just commiserate, there are already two posts above that commiserates...

if u want me to get down to business, i'm doing it

my post was not disrespectful
my post was HONEST

do u want me to just cry with you
or do u want me to give u my HONEST opinion

i'm straightforward

no apologies

My main point was:

1) if a person takes FULL responsibility in how they feel ( no matter HOW daunting of a task it may be.... and it surely IS), then it liberates oneself ( because then THEY are at the helm of their OWN ship instead of being swayed by others

2) it liberates oneself in the fact that they don't have to constantly worry about how to manipulate other people's perception of them.. that could be very draining...

3) it liberates others to not have to behave a certain way... if they want to criticize your raw food diet, that is THEIR business... not YOURS

4) it liberates oneself to act with integrity because one is no longer quailing at the onus of how others perceive them

5) it gives one courage to be the one to be wearing the purple , fuschia and polka dotted pink bikini with roller skates just cuz one FEELS like it

now THAT is living a LIFE!!


I had to post this because i actually feel very strongly about it. One can still feel 1) resentful 2) scared 3) uncomfortable 4) angry 5) sad 6) tearful 7) lonely when one takes responsibility for how one feels but at least one is STILL liberated because they know that no matter how difficult it is, they really do have the choice as to what to do about it and no one can take that choice away from them.

I feel the above emotions from time to time and sure, it could be triggered from outside experiences and I'm not in the least bit ashamed of it, however, I would NEVER even CONSIDER that someone is forcing me to feel or do a certain thing. Sure, it could "trigger" it and the emotions could be OVERWHELMING.. but
the bottom line is.. when all is said and done.. I really DO have the freedom to do what i want about it... whatever the consequences may be.

If someone wants to reject me because i'm eating a cilantro salad at a party ( that i made myself), then so be it. I'M REJECTED. big whup! i don't HAVE to be accepted by EVERYONE. it would be NICE but is it NECESSARY? If I fully accept myself then everyone else's acceptance of me is just icing on the cake, not the CAKE itself. i'm not going to die if i don't get icing. and it sure is not going to deter me from doing what I believe in.

I know what rejection feels like. its not pretty. but if you were rejected because you acted in line with your beliefs, be proud of being a

RE- JECT

if you go with the cookie monster gang just to please them, sure, you might gain some bizarre kind of numbing acceptance but you'll also be REJECTED when you end up in the hospital with your entire body falling apart cuz all that sugar that coursed through the veins made the body just 'give up'

then how ACCEPTING will the cookie monster gang be?

will they come to your aid and give you 24 hour round the clock care and empathy? ( if it were your spouse... maaaaaybe)

but otherwise, most people wouldn't

so what is TRUE acceptance, huh?

it starts with oneSELF

it may be tough, but so what? anything worth some value is tough..

is it worth it though?

i think so

LaV, I'm sure your intentions are the best - maybe your wording is what I disagree with.

Veronique, you say someone talked to you like this once, and you decided afterwards that it was a "good thing," and so now you think it is acceptable to talk to others like this. Is it possible that you contained your natural reaction to the insensitivity of this person (anger) and now lodge it at people like Mislu instead, people who are "like you used to be," that version of yourself which you now hate, and must lash out at in other people to justify the experience of agreeing with that friend of yours about yourself? I look at it this way because the way you responded really isn't going to help very many people. You want to "get down to business" in the way you prescribe as if everyone else is obliged to immediately respond to pain in the way you want them to. Ultimately, when it comes to childhood, there really is force involved, and there really isn't choice for a lot of people being hurt by those bigger than them.

Personally, no one forces me to do anything regarding cooked food now either, nor does what they think bother me, nor do I allow it to become an issue between us, but I didn't come to that place by being screamed at. Even if you really were helped in that certain way, it doesn't mean every random person at who-knows-what stage of their life will also be at this very moment.

<<Even if you really were helped in that certain way, it doesn't mean every random person at who-knows-what stage of their life will also be at this very moment.>>

I agree with you absolutely... and its really out of my hands concerning how people will respond to my post.

I actually responded out of respect. I felt that a person who posts what they feel and is searching for a perspective that is different from their own ( otherwise why bother posting at all)?


is sincerely seeking to come to some sort of SOLUTION.

if u feel that my post was a product of repression, that is certainly your right and its not my job to try and change how you feel ( why should I)?

the fact of the matter however is that i was GENUINELY grateful for this person having changed my perspective and I went out of my way to thank this person MANY times due to the fact that I knew what risks was being taken to tell me this...I can't say that just ONE thing that was said changed my life... but I finally came to the conclusion that no matter how hard it is, the buck really does stop with me.. what I choose to do and how I choose to respond...

this is not to say that the way others treat us has absolutely ZERO bearing on us whatsoever.. it is to acknowledge it FULLY and then STILL take FULL responsibility

the knowledge of this certainly did not anger me

it was extremely liberating

whether or not mislu feels that way is not within my control

i wasn't trying to CHANGE anyone

a question was asked

i responded


was it right? was it wrong?

i don't know

it was honest

that's all i know

right,

Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.

I plagerized this but its still true in my observations/reality



I think most of us do need to find out how to stand alone, before we are comfortable in this new skin to interact joyfully with others, to ignore their 'sins' and our own.

its especially hard when going through detoxing (of course these thoughts are a kind of detox) but especially physical stuff, appearing to 'waste away' turning green or or purple or whatever...gotta stay grounded/positive with an overriding passion and small goals.

gotta take responsibility for yourself

Well, Mislu,

I hope you WEREN'T hurt by what La V had to say, because it seems to me that everything La V said was out of love and compassion, and nothing else.

I think La V was really right on.

La V said the same thing as other posters, but she was a little (or a lot?) more blunt.

Of course it's often good to be subtle about making a point or giving advice. But sometimes it's harder to be subtle when the issue is very personally significant. And also, by being too subtle, there's sometimes a greater possibility that the point will be overlooked.

I think La V took a risk by being so upfront, and by doing so, she put Mislu's real interests above her own.

And La V has also taken the time to explain her intentions thoroughly. Hope everyone can be OK with that.

Here's the thing that made me stop worrying about other people's impressions of my eating habits:

One Thanksgiving, when I was mostly vegetarian (but not really 100% yet) my husband's Aunt and Uncle were alone for Thanksgiving (after raising 4 boys and having all their spouses and children living with them at one time or another). My Aunt really enjoyed cooking for her huge family, but this year, there were only the two of them.

I thought it would be really a good idea for my husband, my son, and I to invite ourselves to their house for Thanksgiving dinner, homecooked by my Aunt, so that she and my Uncle wouldn't feel lonely on Thanksgiving. So we did, and even though most of my extended family usually thought of me as the only vegetarian they knew, I ate everything my Aunt cooked - including the turkey and the candied yams with marshmellows! LOL!

I thought we all had pretty much of a good time, but some time afterwards, my Aunt asked me why I had eaten all of that, when she knew I was usually a vegetarian. When I told her that I thought it would make everybody happy, she shook her head, and told me that she had been really disappointed in me!

I was floored. I mean, my Aunt Rosalie was not exactly a mild-mannered schoolteacher either. She was a rip-roaring hard drinking, barbecue loving, sometimes even fist-fighting, do anything Texas hill-country wild woman.

It made me believe that deep inside, maybe there's a part
of everybody who sees how we raw folks eat and catches some hope from it.

So maybe, no matter how different we are, deep down, others are inspired. I never forget that now, no matter what circumstance I find myself in.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2007 04:17AM by suncloud.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> La V said the same thing as other posters, but she
> was a little (or a lot?) more blunt.


LaV certainly didn't express the same thing I was saying, I hope you can see that.

lets argue about it

Or get shitty if someone disagrees with us.

Like other pseudo-therapeutic, insensitive, preachy lines of thought, this one completely takes any idea of social justice out of the picture. You can be a victim at any time, and some things that people do to you will always be wrong no matter what. Someone can throw a rock at your head and cause you to fall down a hill; while your bleeding and half-conscious, someone else can come by and preach at you that the pain is "your responsibility" and it is "your fault" for "letting that person effect you" and then walk away; as naturally, it was never "their problem" in the first place. Except, I know that both the preacher and the thrower were wrong, just like the multinational corporations that cause countless deaths among impoverished people on account of their pollution and economic practices. I believe in being kind and supportive of people, in taking care of each other, in the value and strength of being sensitive. I don't blame the victim, I don't hurt someone who came to me for help and then say it is their fault, nor do I value being numb. But if everyone here disagrees with me, there really isn't anything more I can say.

Force the change you want to see in the world through direct, socialist democracy!

[www.dreamingearth.net]



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2007 05:24AM by dream earth.

Hi Aquadecoco,

Yes, I can see that.

Boy, that story in my previous post about my Aunt Rosalie sure brought back some memories.

Here is another story about Aunt Rosalie. This next part is rated "X" for raw food vegans, so if you're very sensitive, you've been forewarned!

One time my husband and I just happened to stop by Aunt Rosalie's house right after her boys had brought home a big turtle for their Mom to make turtle soup. Aunt Rosalie was in the yard with the turtle and she had a big knife that she was using to jab into and all around inside the turtle's head socket (told you this was rated "X".

As I stood there in utter shock, she looked up at me (knowing my vegetarian preferences) and very calmly said, "This is how you kill a turtle if you want turtle soup". Or something to that effect.

I just thought I'd bring that up, because I started thinking about it, and I found it so amazing that a person can learn such important lessons from the most unexpected places! And I wanted to share it in honor of my Aunt Rosalie.

Also, I guess I wanted to really stress that if my Aunt Rosalie could be disappointed when I fell off the vegetarian wagon, then anyone else, no matter how bad their diet, could deep down actually be disappointed too.

hey suncloud

stunning post about your aunt rosalie... i agree
i think sometimes people just "test" us to see if our convictions are real

dream earth

<< Like other pseudo-therapeutic, insensitive, preachy lines of thought, this one completely takes any idea of social justice out of the picture. You can be a victim at any time, and some things that people do to you will always be wrong no matter what. Someone can throw a rock at your head and cause you to fall down a hill; while your bleeding and half-conscious, someone else can come by and preach at you that the pain is "your responsibility" and it is "your fault" for "letting that person effect you" and then walk away; as naturally, it was never "their problem" in the first place. Except, I know that both the preacher and the thrower were wrong, just like the multinational corporations that cause countless deaths among impoverished people on account of their pollution and economic practices. I believe in being kind and supportive of people, in taking care of each other, in the value and strength of being sensitive. I don't blame the victim, I don't hurt someone who came to me for help and then say it is their fault, nor do I value being numb. But if everyone here disagrees with me, there really isn't anything more I can say.>>


I couldn't agree with you more:

blaming the victim certainly IS insensitive and solves absolutely NOTHING

it just belittles and degrades people and then both parties end up getting injured

If a friend had something happen to them that was traumatic, I would certainly listen to them and let them vent whatever it is they felt FIRST.

I actually wouldn't even give them any advice UNLESS they asked for it. (Notice that Mislu posted because she/he WANTED some feedback ( i think that is what forums are for).

I also don't feel that if someone was hit by a rock, thus bleeding half to death that it was their "fault" for feeling enraged. I would feel enraged as well.

My point was NOT to

1) blame the "victim"
2) grant total immunity to perpetrators
3) pretend that natural emotions and repurcussions don't exist. They do and may last a lifetime, even.


My point was

1) yes, feel the emotions ( they are ALL valid)
2) vent all you want


HOWEVER : after all that is done :

One STILL has a CHOICE as to how one will react even after extreme situations. That is not to say that one should go around pretending that they weren't affected. What it DOES mean is that one has freedom to do things not because the wrongdoers "made" them do such and such but because they made a CHOICE to do something ( good or bad). This puts the power SQUARELY into the hands of the individual instead of the person who did them injury.



I actually read the book that you suggested by Alice Miller ( You know which one I'm talking about) where she makes a terrifically strong case against corporal punishment towards children. She cites how ADOLF HITLER was BRUTALLY abused physically, emotionally and thus psychically as a child. He is not the ONLY person who injured others because he was a victim of great injury. Others have done it as well. Prisons are FILLED with angry people who were treated with incredible injustice and thus they injured others as well.

Adolf Hitler was horrifically abused ....yes, and not too many people know this. The way in which he was abused was of a catastrophic nature. He thus took out his wrath on others in a catastrophic manner because, subconsciously... he felt he had no other CHOICE. Psychically, he felt that others MADE him that way.. He was FORCED to be the way he was... no doubt. I am not trying to be facetious at all. It happened. It was real. I HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt that , had his childhood been RADICALLY different,, where he was consistently treated in a loving , gentle and respected manner, he would have catapulted an entire nation in committing various genocides. One can definetely see a cause and an effect. He felt spiritually murdered from a very young age and so he commmitted massacres in order to expiate how he felt.

My point is this:

DESPITE what Adolf Hitler and others ( who have been terribly abused) go through, every individual STILL has

FREEDOM as to how to respond.

One can say others MADE me this way or FORCED me to commmit such and such... but that is not only causing grave injury to oneself ( because then one is terribly shackled to their oppressor) but to others as well.

Maybe if someone had told the adult Hitler that his feelings of anger were VALID ( before he became the "Fuhrer" ) but that he was STILL responsible in what he chose to do about it and that nobody could really MAKE him or FORCE him to be a certain way, he may have felt EMPOWERED enough to choose another route.

People who hurt others sometimes do so because they feel they have no other CHOICE... because they don't know that ( after all the abuse), they can still have the POWER to be someone other than the carbon copy of their abuser.



Adolf was, however, of the opinion, that he had no other CHOICE...that due to the fact that he was abused, he HAD to cause great injury to others.

No matter what he went through, he was still RESPONSIBLE RESPONSIBLE RESPONSIBLE for what he decided to do about it.

dreamearth

I appreciate your sensitivity to people's feelings and what they go through.
Your point is well thought out and valid but it is NOT what I was trying to say.

What I am trying to say is after all the venting, and blaming and rage has been let out ( which is normal) ... a person can take SOME measure of HOPE in knowing that they have CHOICE in what to do about it NOW.


I think you and I are on the same page : respect to the individual and validity of their emotions.

The reason why I even bothered posting about this at all is because it is an issue that I have thought about for YEARS.

No matter how tough things get for me, emotionally or otherwise due to outside
events , I take with me a measure of hope knowing that I am valid in WHATEVER it is that I feel but in the end, I and NOT the oppressor has the power to
decide how to react. That is good news to me which is probably why I enjoy having this dialogue. I think it is an issue that should be talked about more.

I think that people's failure to understand this leads to a feeling of disempowerment, and wars. I think you understand what I'm trying to say but I was simply not very successful inarticulating my point.

people always associate responsibility with blaiming victims for some reason..its odd

I've heard it brought up continuly on this board..."oh, this new age stuff implies that abused children brought it upon themselves..they are to blame"

its a really naive way of looking at a rather profound point.


yes theres probably a plethora of destruction/famine/awful things done to people every day. doesn't make it the rule. doesn't have to dictate your reality. in fact, it doesn't, just appears to.

we do have control of our lives/stories, and probably have been controling them since the begining...just not in the way we want...or so it appears. many people that have experienced great trauma are of course more adversed to seeing it this way, but I can say, being one of them, its a difficult yet empowering transition.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2007 02:27PM by anaken.

anaken,


Well, the main problem, I think is that this issue has been polarized and dichotomized for WAAAY too long.

Blockbuster videos in which the big muscle guy totes an uzi and starts blasting away all the "evildoers" are indeed BLOCKBUSTERS because its a way the audience can VENT all their own frustrations that they couldn't do "safely" otherwise. One goes away with the feeling of " HAH ha... the bad guy FINALLY gets it and its ABOUT TIME!!"



Then you got "The Secret" another "blockbuster" in its own right which many are starting to question because it doesn't do the BEST job in exporing the humanity of each individual, and doing justice to the REAL problems that REAL people experience, although their MAIN point is valid " you get what you focus on". That could EASILY be construed as 'blaming the victim" because they are saying that "whatever you get is whatever you asked for".


BOTH camps "blaming the evildoers" and "blaming the victim" leave a LOT to be desired.

Its no WONDER that when I say that taking responsibility is liberating , that it could be taken as "blaming the victim". Because that HAS been the case , in many instances, for sooooo long. The media has NOT done a good job in trying to
do the "victim" justice. It just makes things worse by putting these ridiculous renegade figures as "heroes" who are NOBODY without their guns, uzis etc.

One sure can't learn diddly squat on how to "go on and move forth" after they have been traumatized if all they show is 'GET REVENGE"!

It also doesn't help when you have these SUPER UBER "spiritual" people telling you to "turn the other cheek" cuz Jesus did. Well... most people aren't Jesus.. sorry to break this to anyone.


It DOES help to acknowledge

1) Hey, whatever you are feeling at the time is valid. If you have been traumatized, talk about it for an hour a day, a year , ten years.. whatever..

THEN... when u get that out of your system, I think step TWO is

2) HEY.. WHADDYA WANNA DO ABOUT IT NOW???

I personally feel that being in full possession of ONESELF is like TAKING BACK something that was "taken" from the "victim".

It may sometimes be the BIGGEST slap in the face to the oppressor if the victim learns how to stand on their own two feet and be in possession of their OWN feelings and their OWN actions, and not just a knee jerk REaction of what the perpetrator has done to them.. cuz then , its like the victim is a victim all over again... simply a puppet being manuevered by the puppeteer.


Is it easy to come to the conclusion that one's own actions are ones own choices? ULTIMATELY?

I don't think its easy at all.

Is it easy to finally admit that even though it is difficult ( and sometimes darn near "impossible" to control ones own feelings.. that, STILL, no one really MADE a person feel a certain way.

I don't think that is easy either.

Is it easy to STOP perpetuating violence because one was a victim of violence?
Just ask Adolf Hitler.. he'll tell you that it was IMPOSSIBLE. ( okay , he's dead but u get the gist)


HOWEVER,

Is taking responsibility for oneself a WORTHY route?

yes

Can it be extremely difficult?

yes

Is it darn near impossible?

yes, sometimes... it can be

Is it NECESSARY? if we are to stop having all these wars? ( small and grand)

yes

If someone does something GOOD, it was their CHOICE. if someone did something
"bad' it was their CHOICE.

Am i telling everyone to be a "goody two shoes" and turn the other cheek"?

No

I'm just saying this:

realize this : you are your OWN person
set yourself free with this knowledge

no matter WHAT it is that you do : "good" OR "bad"

Mislu:

I want to clarify and say that the ONLY part of your post that i was responding to (which did take into account your feelings, by the way... was this):

<< But sometimes it has caused a great deal of compromise on my part, its not fun being FORCED into doing things I don't agree with not to stick out too much,>>

You used the word 'FORCED' and THAT is what stuck out in my mind to making me think that you didn't think you had a choice in the matter.

Had you not posted that, i probably wouldn't have posted at all.

There would have been nothing to say except " yes, those are your memories, it sure does hurt to stick out, i hope you feel better"

Had I ONLY said that , in light of what you posted , that would have been patronizing to you and i don't like patronizing people... that's like saying

" this person is too immature to hear anything other than a reflection of their own opinion"

I thought you deserved better.

I know for sure that when my Aunt Rosalie said she was disappointed in me, I was surprised and HURT (for the moment). But her lesson to me was worth so much, and I am so grateful to her that she gave it.

Maybe there's two different kinds of "blunt": "rude blunt" and "loving blunt".

Veronique,

In my view the middle stage of healing is very important, and I agree with you that __after__ healing, there are choices on how to live. Before that, when the person may not even realize they were wronged or even be able to admit it, they really don't have a choice yet; they can't be "empowered." That is my personal experience, that the choices will come naturally after the healing process, and that it is best to enable someone to reach that point with sympathy and understanding. Some people are victimized so early in life that their brains are still developing at the time, and this does totally inform and shape their reality; those people need serious healing and validation first, sometimes they need to even recover memories that they blocked out before new ways of life can ever open up to them. Mind you, I'm not saying what people like Hitler do is great and that we should measure their time of healing by the thousands they've killed so far, but that in order for us to have individual choices we need help and uninhibited sympathy and validation from other people; we need a caring society that will actually take the side of victims, especially children. It is still perfectly legal and thought of as acceptable to give someone Hitler's childhood in most parts of the world. You can't skip the healing.

This post is not the first time I've heard the sort of dialog you gave; someone I loved once gave me the message of "I emotionally abuse you, will continue to, and if that makes you feel bad, it's your fault" (but they felt differently about their own "responsibility" when I eventually told them off and cut them off.) I also heard it being said in an equally gross way to someone who was suffering from anorexia (and who is naturally still suffering from anorexia, as not validating someone that they were hurt, not assisting in allowing someone to heal in their own time, but confronting and ranting at them at how "irresponsible" they are is not therapeutic and not healing.)

Having said that, I can accept that though a similar line of reasoning is used by people who really do blame the victim (and their own victims, for that matter,) it is not what you meant. You are right that we are on the same page as far as validating people's feelings and individuality. Thank you for reading the book I suggested; I think it is really important information, unlike 'the secret.' Outside of this discussion, I've always liked you and the things that we've shared.

Force the change you want to see in the world through direct, socialist democracy!

[www.dreamingearth.net]

dreamearth



<<Outside of this discussion, I've always liked you and the things that we've shared.>>

Even if you did NOT like me, that's okay.

You maintain your own integrity by pointing out that it is wrong to blame the victim.

I maintain MY integrity by saying that one can STILL have choices DESPITE being victimized.

Its all the same, as far as I'm concerned. Just different phases of a plant growing.

same plant

by the way,

the author/book

u told me about... alice miller... excellent mind she has
with compelling arguments

lucky for me, i got to read that book

It isn't the same, it just isn't.

Force the change you want to see in the world through direct, socialist democracy!

[www.dreamingearth.net]

Hello everyone,
Thank you for posting. I haven't looked on the board for a few hours, or has it been days? I don't know, but I certainly got more responses than I thought I would, and I am very glad. I am also quite glad to hear some very straightforward and honest replies, and perhaps a more detailed look at my original post that I thought would happen. Its rather suprising.

My original post was kind of an inner look at something I had just realized. It was rather strange, suddenly I remembered certain memories I had supressed,and for some reason I now have access to them for processing. Those were very confusing and hurtful experiences. As a young person, still developing I didn't yet fully have access to certain things. Or perhaps certain things were not tolerated in my environment. Like having clear preferences in eating habits, and that being ok.

The word 'forced' is an interesting word indeed. I didn't even realize that I even typed that. But the fact was that even before those experiences I was indeed forced to eat things I didn't want to eat. If I had my way in childhood I probably would have only eaten bannanas, peanutbutter and jelly, "little lettuce balls"(the name I called brussel sprouts, and yes I liked them because they were like eating a whole mini cabbage in one bite) But the thought at time was that children couldn't live on just that, and naturally my parents were concerned.

But,I didn't care for these awful steaks my father bought. Cheap tough steaks which were like shoe leather. My father would coax me to eat them by saying things like "I never got steak as a child". He said it like they were something special. When that didn't work, I couldn't leave the table, watch t.v. or go outside until I finished it. At least my mother chopped it up into smaller bits, but I could see that it was difficult even for her to cut. I chewed on some of them and managed to swallow some of them, when when I started choking on them, and spitting out grissel I was eventually allowed to leave the table, because I made some effort at eating what was there. So, yes as a child I was definately forced into eating things I didn't want to eat. As an adult there are more options thats for sure, but I think something remains of these earlier experiences. I still eat quickly, and I often eat everything on my plate If i go out to resturants, even if I really had enough. Sometimes I catch myself and just leave what I really can't eat. Fortunately its happening more often.

Another really awful experience was being forced into swallowing a nickle. Yes, my father made me swallow coins for his amusement. I came really closing to dying from that, while he just laughed. But at that young age I would have done anything to please my father. He did a lot of abusive things. At age ten,(oh if you are really sensitive you may not want to read this) He picked up his sisters cat by the tail and twirled it around over his head, its tail came off and it hit the side of a building and died. Sometime later his sister came by and saw it sitting there, and said in shock "what happend to my cat?!!!" As an adult,some twenty years later he told me this story. Something which I still find incredibly horrific. The worst part was that he laughed telling it, and he repeatedly told the story, laughing each time. These were just a few of the things I had to deal with as a young person. This is what I actually remember. I don't know if I want to remember much more.

In high school I really set strong boundaries about what I ate, and nobody could change my mind. What I didn't know was that I wasn't beyond criticism and ridicule. The worst was the lack of support I got from a few teachers and school counselors. I was criticized for making other students upset or uncomfortable with how they ate. That was something strange for me, as I never recall attacking anyone, but I did set clear limits about what I ate.

Another criticism came after I had brought tofu to eat during lunch. Just plain tofu, that was it! I don't remember why exactly, but I think it was because I didn't have time to make something, or thats all there was left to eat at home, something. The teacher wanted me to get something like a hamburger or fish or something. She said something to the effect that I wasn't eating enough or an adaquate meal, or wondering why I wasn't eating meat. I said "I'm a vegetarian". She just glared back at me with the same angry look. I then asked her why she wasn't scolding other students for eating crap. She said it was because they were eating something more than just tofu. I just didn't understand at all why french fries, ice cream and hamburger equaled more variety and a complete meal. What she couldn't see, and realize was what I might have eaten earlier or after that in the same day. I got that same sensation that I was being told to eat something I didn't want to eat.

Yes, I think several of you are correct that it is an internal thing that has to be dealt with, but the start of this process was from a literal forcing. Thats the origin of the word 'force'.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2007 07:03AM by Mislu.

Wow Mislu! Good for you for setting your own path through all of that!