Mislu

I'm glad that you have choices now as an adult and that you won't ever be forced to eat something you don't like. It sounds like you grew up in a really abusive household. I can certainly see why you may feel that you are still being forced.
Take heart that you are not.

I think people confuse the word "sympathy" with the word "compassion". Sympathy is a weak word in my opinion, it implies allowing others to stay in a position of powerlessness and commiserating with them there. Compassion on the other hand reminds people of their power and responsiblilty in ALL situations and circumstances and does not allow others to wallow in their own @#$%&.

In my opinion, La-V was showing compassion while some of you jumped in to sympathize.

I'll shut up now,

khale

awesome khale

now shut up!

j/k

anaken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> people always associate responsibility with
> blaiming victims for some reason..its odd
>

It's because of the denial at work in every person and the need to not allow others to process how and how fast they want to - just like you seem to be doing here.

I am certain that if you were put into certain circumstances, you would fall deeply into a victim stance and would have a very hard time getting out. But since you're comfortable enough where you are in your life, you can arrogantly make scoffing statements like the one I quoted. Arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand, where we are ignorant we are often arrogant, without realizing it. I'm guessing you've lived a fairly narrow life.

I would put more effort in responding to this, but I think khale already said it.

plus I don't know what that first sentence means

if YOU are seeing my disassociation of responsibility and blame to be arrogance, go ahead. It confuses the heck out of me, for we are not talking about if one decided to go buy a fish, and then put it in a bowl and left it in the closet. we are talking about people taking responsibility for their current paths, and their past paths if necessary. this brings it out of blame and into compassion.

I think my experience is anything but narrow, but what do I know, I am not everyone else



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2007 06:42PM by anaken.

I thoroughly enjoyed la Veronique's post, it took me a really long time to read because I got so absorbed in contemplating everything that was written.

La veronique,
Yes, I grew up in a very abusive household. More so than the average home I believe. Its probably little wonder that my father joined the military. I grew up packing up and moving about every two years or so to live on another military base. Each time I had to make new friends and say goodbye to the ones I had. Eventually we started living off base, but we still spent quite a bit of time on there. After I moved out of the house, it was a difficult adjustment. After about ten years living off base, I visted a base...and whoa...I never realized how incredibly drab, depressing, uncreative, unfun places they are. Its no place for a child, actually anyone surrenders most of their humanity in military service.

I used to keep in close contact with my parents, but the last few years I really lost contact, I just don't care for the types of conversations we have, I'm just not there anymore. It took a long time, but I realized that I don't have to associate with them, even if they are my parents. I think a lot of people don't get that, or perhaps they have better relations with their parents. I was interested in dating someone, and he went on and on about his parents and how often he visited them. All of a sudden he stopped, and said 'you don't talk about your parents'. I just said "I haven seen them in over ten years". I think he picked up on the fact that I wasn't interested. I really didn't like the probing questions that followed, and to be honest I don't remember them, as I just ignored them. He seemed really put off about that, and didn't want to see me anymore. I just thought to myself...what the? Its like geeze, are you dating me or my parents?

Sorry to go on and on. But Yes, I have a lot of choices to make as an adult, but I don't feel very adapted as an adult to be honest. I know many might just say 'get over it' like its just that easy. Its easy to say for other people, as they didn't have the experience that I have. But its getting easier for me to realize that it just doesn't matter what other people do, or how well other people are doing its not me. Its like this, abuse is sort of like hammering nails in a board. You can remove the nails and thats an improvement, but then you are left with holes and often split wood. Then you can fill the holes in with something, and thats a great improvement, but its sure not like an original board without holes. I guess you could always paint or varnish. Personally I would like to start with a new board. Except I don't know if it works that way. Another thing to remember is that everyone has had some nails or tacks put into their board, it may not be the same board or the same location.

Yikes...I just read my previous post. Its definately time I got over it! That compassion/sympathy thing seems to have alot of truth. Except I would call it something else verses compassion. I definately want to be a new person and start fresh, leave the past behind, or at least not have it cripple me anymore.

I just read the rest of this thread - wow, Mislu, that's a tough childhood. You sound pretty grounded though, good for you.
I definitely think raw food helps with emotional healing- on raw food I suddenly started seeing the errors of my ways, emotionally self destructive or denial habits I had, I was able to see them clearly and make changes. Expressing emotions or saying "I feel this" or "I want that" come forth more naturally now, in a way that they didnt used to before. I feel "normal" now, whereas before I used to resort to self-defensive mechanisms to try to protect myself from emotional vulnerability, and I think the reality is that I was causing my own hurt instead of preventing it.

Good for you mislu for wanting to move forward on a path that will take you away from your abusive past.

I believe that if someone makes a real effort to PRACTICE being the person they'd like to be, then they will become that person. In the process, the past will seem further and further away, and more and more insignificant.

You may sometimes feel like a split board with holes in it now , but it doesn't have to be forever. There are lessons in that board that are just for you. Maybe your past has given you the gift of tolerance, or the gift of determination, or the gift of independence. Don't allow yourself to get too hung up on the sadness of your past. Think rather of what knowlege you GAINED from your experience and what is the best way to use that knowlege. You can use your gifts, whatever they are, to forge a new life for yourself that is far, far away from your past.

If you sometimes can only see yourself as that messed up old board, just don't give in to that. Do something positive to show yourself that you can be more than that. Then just keep doing those positive things, and one day that old board will just become a memory of something that used to be a long, long, time ago.

Part of parental abuse is not allowing the children to have any control over their lives. Well then, TAKE control. You can do it. You're already doing it. Make your life into whatever you want it to be!

Mislu, I'm editing this to say I just read your most recent post. It seems to me like you're already at least half way to where you want to be!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2007 05:59AM by suncloud.

Sunshine,
Yes, I know what your talking about. I found that I respond more appropriate to situations more of the time then I did in the past. I am also more emotionally stable, the extremes in mood aren't there anymore. But I'm not emotionally dead either! I am much more inclined to say this thing or that thing bothers me, rather than letting someone walk all over me.

Suncloud,
Thank you for your comments and support!

(edit)

Actually, forget what I just posted. I refuse to participate in any dialogue where further emotional abuse cloaked as support is constantly complimented. I take back my comments about liking anyone who has espoused such things here. The ugliness and stupidity of some of you really amazes me, but I'm done. I hope you can find an atmosphere and people that will really support and accept you, Mislu, because trauma is written into our cells and will no more respond to someone elses moral claim than digestion will. Anyone who says differently is a fake.

Force the change you want to see in the world through direct, socialist democracy!

[www.dreamingearth.net]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2007 06:25AM by dream earth.

Things CAN change, no matter what the trauma.

WE, above everyone else, have the ability to create ourselves.

"Everything can be taken from a man but ...the last of the human freedoms - to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."

Victor Frankl from "Man's Search for Meaning"


I think that everyone should read the book from which the above quotation was clipped. Victor Frankl was a victim of the concentration camps of Hitlers' Germany and experienced and observed suffering to the extent that few of us can even imagine. Through that experience he learned first-hand that no matter what life throws at you you have a choice to respond in a way that upholds the integrity of your own spirit or to allow your spirit to be crushed by it. Did he suffer? More than we can know. Was he as a victim to blame for this experience? Of course not. Was he responsible, ultimately, for how he handled himself in this experience? He would say, "yes, absolutely"

Victor Frankl did not spend the rest of his life identifying himself as a victim of cruelty and injustice - though few of us would feel comfortable blaming him if he had. Instead, he went on to live a vital and useful life - helping others to recognize the indestructability of the human spirit when it refuses to be squashed by tyranny and instead chooses to maintain integrity at all costs and endeavors to hold on to Lifes ultimate beauty and purpose against all appearances to the contrary.

As for emotions and food...these have to be dealt with, and clearly Mislu is attempting to do just that. But to identify oneself as a victim is to remain a victim. Far better to recognize the power of choice in your own hands today, thereby overcoming evil with good.

khale

khale

i liked Victor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning". It was simply written but very profound. I think the detail that stuck out most for me was when he mentioned how some of the people in the concentration camp decided that they at least had a CHOICE as to what to do with their meager "quota" of bread and some decided to forgo or share their already small ration to those that they felt needed it more than they did. It gave them a sense of empowerment that they could still do SOMETHING to give their lives and other lives some measure of meaning, by showing compassion, concern, caring etc. A lot of these people ( as most know) were already brutally treated both psychologically, psychically and physically before they were heinously exterminated but some still chose to take hold of the reins of their OWN ATTITUDE. I'm not saying that everyone is capable of doing this. I'm just saying that the choice is there. Without knowledge of that choice, things could get even MORE grim. WITH that knowledge there is at least HOPE.

If some people feel that having this freedom means to deprive someone of the complex, arduous,and meaningful journey of healing, they also have that CHOICE to believe that. This awareness may not come immediately ( especially if one is a child thus I am speaking VASTLY about adults), nor may it come AT ALL. That still does not detract from the fact that people do have a choice as to how they respond, even if their ONLY choice may be their ATTITUDE.

Freedom exists only in the mind. Physically, you are connected to everything else in the Universe, it couldn't be any other way... So really, it is (and has to be) a matter of perspective... That's why people with less than me are sometimes happier than me, and people with a seemingly better life can be more miserable.

As someone who does not always feel like an adapted adult, or whatever Mislu said, I can relate... The problem with change is also related to perspective: we want to change everything immediately, whereas change seems to come about more gradually.

Looking at it mathematically...
If we have X memories
and If each bad experience creates one bad memory (BEM = BEM + 1)
Then the proportion of bad experiences to good experiences increases
Therefore, a greater percentage of our memories become bad and so it is more likely we would assume that more bad things will happen (because we base our guess on whether or not "life is good/bad", or similar thoughts, on past experience... more bad past experience makes it more likely to assume more bad is coming)

It's sort of a dangerous cycle. You need to find a hole in your thinking (find something in your logic that doesn't make sense, in regards to your suffering - like, that you don't know for certain that life can't get better, but you assume that it will get worse), and use that hole to dig back to the root of your problems.

Then start small with building good experiences... and assume that more good can come. Start with something easy, and keep at it, and things will change.

Take care, guys and gals

Edit: my posts are sometimes hard to read - sorry about that. it's hard to get my point across in less than 5 or 10 thousand words, really...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2007 08:49PM by ThomasLantern.

I thought you did pretty well, ThomasLantern!

hey tommy

i like your math

its nice

really

it

i
s

tommy

<<Then start small with building good experiences... and assume that more good can come. Start with something easy, and keep at it, and things will change>>

it kinda reminds me of what davey mason always says
like starting small ( adding manageable amounts of raw that you are comfortable with and building with that) and now he is reveling in his fruit and veggie garden paradise that he made slowly but surely

cool

Davey is a smart man, no question
And thanks you two!

yeah davey iz smart