I am asking this question again to see if I can an answer. It is my impression that humans were not meant to survive, in harmony that is. Humans, developed intellectually in order to continue existence on this earth. Killing became a necessity. I am vegan. The thought of killing repels me. All is, indeed, a large intellectuallization, a reasoning process. Things we use daily are nothing but the product of man and his survival. We have not extinguish the causes of misery such as poverty, hunger, war, etc. What do you think? All feedback is appreciated.

I am a big bible reader and if you read it, you will obviously see that God had intended us all to live forever by eventually eating from the tree of life. But it became forbidden as soon as Eve ate from the tree of Knowledge.

Our body is a healing process, we bleed but we heal and get better. We were meant to never die. In the bible it says one day we will live forever because it was Gods plan from the very begining.

i am an eternal optimist and i believe that the scales will eventually balance out. meaning, eventually all people will evolve into more advanced creatures that will live forever. we will tip the scales and create a world where people understand that killing and cruelty are not a part of "life", but a road to death.

"every passing moment is a chance to turn it all around"

YES, and to evolve further morally,emotionally,mentally, AND physically. and to set an example for the other organisms.

At that point there will be no need to criticize our past, and hopefully we'll still have airplanes and stuff like that to play around with!

personally i'm just trying to play MY cards right, perhaps I'll see it pass. hah!


_____________________



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short and sweet....and DEEP

_____________________________________________________ ...and FREE

Sometimes I think Earth is like elementary school - we're here but we don't know much.

It's the blind leading the blind and they're led by their baser feelings.

Through willingness to know (you get the willingness from painful living) you open up your mind and heart and become more humble and accept the simple truths written in every religion and nature (and elsewhere too).


I believe in reincarnation, which made sense to me even as a child.


The humblest people seem to have the most wisdom and never push it or make a show of it, but you feel it all the stronger for that.


That's why I'm not convinced Earth will ever be much changed - there seems to be no end to the creativity of greed and stupidity we humans generate as a race.

aquadecoco

u think earth is an elementary school?


i thought it was pre school

we get an inkling of what its all about

then... who knows??

maybe i'll get to elementary school in my next life

right now, maybe i'm in kindergarten

There is only our choices and our responsibility.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

The natural human state is one of co-operation, not competition, however with humans deceived by cooked food perceptions and stimulated nervous systems an artificial reality is created that leads to tremendous suffering.

If the world went vegan, we would be living in a society built on compassion, as opposed to greed- currently we live in a society that allows children to starve, AIDS sufferers to be ignored, a media to brainwash people- people who feel it is too much of an effort to 'try' to care.

I see our current human behaviour as very similar to a virus or a parasite- we kill and destroy without reason. We suck the earth dry of resources, we overpopulate. We are a threat to the earth and the survival of other species. Yet when it dawns on us we are making a mess of things, we start looking for cures and solutions instead of prevention tactics because of certain 'human rights'. Human rights!? So, if there's some couple who drive His 'n Her SUVs, eat dairy and meat for dinner all day, litter, take cheap flights to Spain three times a year, and feel it's their 'right' to continue living that way, we should let them keep taking from the earth till there's nothing left so as to let them keep being 'free'? Loopy!

Raw foodism has given veganism/vegetarianism a shot in the arm and then some. The rate at which it is growing gives me immense hope for a bright future. Also, people usually start caring about their own health before they care about the welfare of other people/animals, so it's like veganism/vegetarianism is being built by two pillars instead of one- the ethics pillar and the health pillar.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2007 07:01AM by rawnoggin.

there are more pillars 2
and they are good

and infinite

"meant"? to survive?

this seems to me to assume a destiny preconceived. what if the future were being created every moment? that we, along with other moving forces, are actually creating the future as we step into it? In other words, that there is no future apart from NOW. NOW IS the future.

I like this line from the movie "Men in Black": "People are not smart. Individuals are smart. People are dumb, panicky animals, and you know it."

The future is not determined by "us". The future is determined by YOU.

When YOU change the whole world changes.


khale

rawnoggin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I see our current human behaviour as very similar
> to a virus or a parasite- we kill and destroy
> without reason. We suck the earth dry of
> resources, we overpopulate. We are a threat to the
> earth and the survival of other species. Yet when
> it dawns on us we are making a mess of things, we
> start looking for cures and solutions instead of
> prevention tactics because of certain 'human
> rights'. Human rights!? So, if there's some couple
> who drive His 'n Her SUVs, eat dairy and meat for
> dinner all day, litter, take cheap flights to
> Spain three times a year, and feel it's their
> 'right' to continue living that way, we should let
> them keep taking from the earth till there's
> nothing left so as to let them keep being 'free'?
> Loopy!
>


Well put. It's so sad-and those are most people's goals. I think it's from believing it's the best a person can do for him or herself in this life. Is that the highest we can think we can attain? I wasn't so far off this 'model' a few years ago, but it was from lack of imagination and from ignoring what I knew was important-listening to cultural values.

Khale, you hit it right on the head IMO.

Rawnoggin wrote:
>>>> Human rights!? So, if there's some couple
> who drive His 'n Her SUVs, eat dairy and meat for
> dinner all day, litter, take cheap flights to
> Spain three times a year, and feel it's their
> 'right' to continue living that way, we should let
> them keep taking from the earth till there's
> nothing left so as to let them keep being 'free'?
> Loopy!


You can't take away human rights without taking away your own rights. Free will is a nature(God for some) given right no one can ever take away. No matter what happens to us and our lives we always have free will. Terrible things have happened when people start trying to take that away. The key is to spread the enlightenment ours brothers and sisters so desperately need. The first step is to be willing to model and teach. if you can't change your world you can't change the world.

I disagree that killing the way human beings do and to the extent human beings do is a necessity. I believe the natural human condition is to peacefully co exist in nature as a part of the ecosystem. When humans diverged from our true essence of honouring all life around us and began efforts to control all life around us we started down this path of unrelenting destruction. There is a way back. Just look at how "weeds" crack our pavement.

I happen to agree that raw veganism is part of the solution.

I also disagree that "things we use daily are nothing but the product of man and his survival" I look around and most of what humans have made are not integral to our survival, in fact all this irresponsible indutrialism is leading us quickly to our demise-pre ordained or not. I strongly believe that "things we use daily" and, unfortunately most of our relationships,are expressions of fear and control.

The creature that was human thrived beautifully in harmony with nature for thousands of years. It was when human beings sought to dominate our surroundings (including each other) that we as a species cultivated the unatural and unhealthy power structures of today.

The pertinent question to me is "How are we meant to survive? And can we do it?"

Has anyone read Derrick Jensen's books? They are pretty interesting.

I believe that pain and joy are both a part of life. We have the opportunity to learn from pain which will allow more joy to come into our lives.

Khale, I agree with you that when you change, the world changes. I always say too that we create changes in the world by making the changes within ourselves. That is how I can say I am an activist.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2007 04:10PM by azrael.

Human rights operate within cultural bounds. Our culture largely determines our world view, at least until we start questioning it.

rawnoggin was referring to current, western culture norms and expectations and the stupidity of them.....


Why do human rights take priority over the rights of all the other biological life forms on earth ? And they do.....every time we open a can of paint, look at a glossy new car brochure, test-drive the car, etc. we could remember the acts
of pollution needed to materialize that item.
If you had to live in the chemical filth created by these desires, as all the smaller, weaker, more vulnerable, life forms must, you might not find them worth having.

Our individual fight is part of the fight, but when you have grown men and women who require the murder of living creatures, the destruction of the earth- just for them to feel normal- they are well and truly infringing on the rights of people who don't want that kind of negativity in this world- by sheer selfishness.

It's not like they wake up and think "I WANT to ruin the earth for my grandkids" or "I WANT that cow brutally murdered for my dinner".

Yet the moment you mention they probably shouldn't be doing it, you get the "It's a free country" garbage.

Sure, it's a free country. Perhaps my neighbour has a PlayStation 3 I'd quite like for myself, I'll just run round there and steal it. It's my right to do what I want, and I choose me over him. That kind of self-obsessive BS sure as hell aint going to help anyone.

It's as if the companies that profit have an invisible pair of ear muffs over these folks' heads.

Aquadecoco wrote:

>>>>>Why do human rights take priority over the rights of all the other biological life forms on earth ? And they do.....every time we open a can of paint, look at a glossy new car brochure, test-drive the car, etc. we could remember the acts
of pollution needed to materialize that item.

Free will and ignorance.


>>>If you had to live in the chemical filth created by these desires, as all the smaller, weaker, more vulnerable, life forms must, you might not find them worth having.


I agree with changing the world for the better. The answer isn't forcing people to choose your/our way. If your/our way is the best way it will prevail with patience and empathy. Sometimes people might forget to have empathy for their fellow man while having infinite empathy for every other creature. People need help finding their way. Isn't that why we are all on this board?

Thanks, aquadecco

Yeah, 'human rights' is such a freaky subject! It wasn't too long ago that 'blacks' were treated differently to 'whites', and even today, we still continue to persecute against our own species.

I shudder to think what our great great grandchildren will look back on this era as.

pakd4fun Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The answer isn't forcing people to choose your/our
> way.


But who said it was? I'm not a big fan of 'human rights'. We didn't make this earth, but we should have enough smarts to care for it.

aquadecoco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pakd4fun Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > The answer isn't forcing people to choose
> your/our
> > way.
>
>
> But who said it was? I'm not a big fan of 'human
> rights'. We didn't make this earth, but we should
> have enough smarts to care for it.

Rawnoggin did.

>....we should let them keep taking from the earth till there's nothing left so as to let them keep being 'free'? Loopy!

azrael Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I always say too that we create
> changes in the world by making the changes within
> ourselves. That is how I can say I am an
> activist.

Yes!

I had an interesting thought yesterday while walking around the trendy clothing district of a large city; there were tons of young people in the streets, mostly all smoking cigarettes.

Wouldn't it be interesting if humans went about their lives on a daily basis in their natural state -- wearing no clothing? Can you imagine how that would change people's daily priorities? With no clothing to hide behind to cover their "sins," I bet people would be making VERY different choices in how they live their daily lives.

> Rawnoggin did.
>
> >....we should let them keep taking from the earth
> till there's nothing left so as to let them keep
> being 'free'? Loopy!



That's a rhetorical question, not a call to arms.

I am interested in this discussion of free will. How can I be sure that I am exercising free will? How do I know that my subconsciousness isn't influencing my decisions at any given moment? I do know that I do not maintain awareness acting with compassion for all life in each moment. This, I believe, is an enlightened state.

However, whether or not free will determines our choices, I blieve each of us remains responsible for our actions. I agree with the sentiment "Be the change you want to see in the world" (Ghandi)

So, what are the changes I want to see in the world? Peace, compassion, respect. How do I embody these things? Choosing raw vegan fare;choosing the unpaid job of motherhood;choosing to be a car-free family...

These consciously peace promoting choices are fraught with conflict. I think the conflict can be framed with the qestion " to whom and to what am i responsible?" When my daily choices affect the well being of thousands of people world wide and unknown to me, and when my daily choices affect the natural global landscape trying to make peace promoting decisions becomes overwhelming and sometimes impossible. Living in a house, in a small city, with kids and a husband, the ramifications of my choices are too diverse.

Am I accountable to my family? to my local community? to Nature? to the global community? There are so many competing interests.

That is funny, you have such a horrible view of man.

When one listens and trusts others, all sorts of problems happen.

Think for yourself and you will survive. We are very powerful and we are blessed with consciousness we don't even use.

Think.

Coconutcream,

To whom are you referring?

If we weren't meant to survive, we wouldn't be here. But we are. So I guess that answers that.

Bryan, you are so succinct.

I believe our problems will persist until we learn to love everything.
I think that we are entering a time where we are waking up to this fast, and that our choice is either to learn this and live in peace, or continue as we have been and experience massive cataclysm.

I concur, Lightform. And I really like the way you put it. The tricky part seems to be learning to love everything.