As my curiosity has not previously been satisfied about why certain people (such as myself) seem to feel "off balance" when eating too large a percentage of our diet in the form of sweet fruits, I've come across an interesting - and perhaps plausible - explanation.

I was reading more about Yin & Yang, and came across a list of yin & yang foods. Ancient Chinese medicine says that for optimal health, yin & yang energies must be in perfect balance.

The following foods are classified as Yin:

Milk
Alcohol
Honey
Sugar
Oil
Fruit juices
Spices
Stimulants
Most drugs
(such as aspirin)
Tropical vegetables and fruits
Refined foods
Most food additives of a chemical nature

And these are Yang:

Poultry
Seafood
Eggs
Meat
Salt
Fish
Cheese

While these are balanced foods:

Seeds
Nuts
Vegetables
Cereal grains
Beans
Sea vegetables
Temperate fruits (such as apples and pears)


To me, it's like Eureka! No wonder that most days I feel best on the last list, it's the balanced list. And it also explains why I crave copious amounts of pineapple and other juicy fruits after weightlifting: that's a yang activity, and my body probably wants to balance itself, hence my craving for yin foods in the form of juicy fruits.

Also I see that most SAD foods are on either the yin or yang list and but not enough from the balanced list - no surprise there.

I don't think anybody's saying there's anything wrong with fruit - it's a healthy and whole food that nature made for us --- but for certain people, perhaps it throws our energies off balance in a way that's unpleasant.

That's the best explanation I've come across so far, and I like it! It's simple and it makes sense.

Sorry to sound contrary, but the more I considered it, the less it fit with my idea of natural diet.


TCM is based on cooked. When I eat cooked food, I feel thrown off-balance. TCM uses food very unnaturally, always balancing this with that, etc. It's not even nutritionally sound. This system creates an enormous number of needs - just visit a chinese herbalist's shop or read about the exotic animal parts they believe are needed to regain health for some problems.

The DTCMs I know are reasonably healthy, but one of them suffers from dibilitating menstrual pain and needs two days off from work every month. Her hair is grey though she's only in her early thirties. Her breath is sometimes bad: they believe the tongue should be coated in a certain way, which seems unnatural to me - Nat. Hyg. believes the tongue should be clean. (which would you rather kiss!)


Bryan - or the 10-10-80 book - has a better explanation about why fruit is difficult for so many of us and based on my experience with raw vegan, it makes sense to me.

Aquadeco,
Observations from raw foodists and TCM may be from adifferent perspective that gives a different explanation.

I have very limited knowledge of TCM. The tounge coating is for diagnosis purposes, so its ideal to not brush for a few hours before diagnosis and treatment, beyond that you can brush or clean it off. I think that no coating is supposed to indicate an excessively dry situation in the internal organs, excessive coating indicates dampness, whatever that means. Too red and dark is excessive heat, along with grey, or yellow coating.

There is a divide between raw foodists and TCM over cooked and raw food. TCM generally advises not to over consume raw foods. When I took my class in TCM the instructor was quite clear that she thought the raw food movement was a fad and very unhealthy. she sounded very grave. She thought it stressed out the digestive organs, and would eventually exhaust them. Prior to that it would give likely symptoms such as a bloated belly, loose bowels, a sensation of coldness, lack of energy, frequent urination. Later vomiting, and further problems with the digestion. For raw foodists these are generally viewed as detox symptoms, is that correct? So its entirely possible to view the same set of symptoms and have different ideas about them. I'm still not sure what to think.

Raw foodists say that eating things uncooked is as nature intentened, and that humans are not above nature, which I am sure that TCM would generally agree. However, there is that period of time in human history that the species did cook almost everything. I don't know of any other species which has any period of cooking. It could be very unnatural, but most things people do are unnatural. Computing, car driving, clothes, writing, language etc...

Eastern food today contains alot of sugar & MSG, which are modern things, so you can't really judge based on that, unless you know someone is exactly following the ancient ways. Before modern times, people were always familiar with grain sprouting - so to say that grains were always cooked, would be inaccurate. Also grain has sometimes been considered a fruit, as it contains within it a seed. That is the botanical definition of fruit.

Ancient wisdom was gained through careful observation of one's natural environment - plants, animals, the stars, etc. - and passed down through the eons. Anyone who would discount that in favor of a handful of recently-awakened, Western educated people, is a fool. Our recent raw knowledge should merely complement what the ancients knew, and discount instead the last 500 years of pain & suffering in the name of "civilization" which occurred as a result of trampling on indigenous cultures and ancient wisdom.

The concept of Yin & Yang is one of those things that just makes absolute sense.

Hi Mislu, - yes and about the tongue, they believe that when a person is healthy, there should always be a coating on it, it should not be clean and pink.

I want my flesh pink and clean, not coated!

Also - there is virtually no respect for other species in TCM. Every thing on the earth seems deemed there for humans to use and discard as humans please - it makes me sick to think this way.


However, I like acupuncture.

I saw a Nat. Hyg. raised family. The parents and their children were all raised N.H. and THEY GLOWED. It was beautiful to see. The grandparents, who changed to NH as adults, were very healthy but it really showed in the kids and grandkids.

Aquadeco,
I have heard that the tounge should be pink and have a light coating that is clear or very light white. I think it would be a misrepresentation to say that the chinese do not respect other species. However, traditional views of life are now mixed with western ideas, which often clash considerably. There is room for improvement, wouldn't it be ideal to take the best of both views if possible? Knowledge of herbs and their use and consumption need to be balanced with concerns over extintion, plant or animal. All cultures have problems of this sort, a question of at what level can we consume resources. NOT consuming resources is not realistic, how one does it, and at what intensity is the question.

Mislu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> There is a divide between raw foodists and TCM
> over cooked and raw food. TCM generally advises
> not to over consume raw foods... She
> thought it stressed out the digestive organs, and
> would eventually exhaust them. Prior to that it
> would give likely symptoms such as a bloated
> belly, loose bowels, a sensation of coldness, lack
> of energy, frequent urination...Later vomiting... For > raw foodists these are generally viewed as detox
> symptoms... I'm still not sure
> what to think.
>


Mislu, I totally agree with you - we just don't know yet. When raw foodists blame everything on detox, it sounds suspiciously to me like when doctors blame everything that they don't know on genetics.

I have no doubt that raw foodists have more knowledge about these things than most people - however, raw is just the FIRST BIG STEP in the right direction in regaining our lost wisdom of the ancients. There is way more that we don't know right now, than we do know.

For Doug Graham and others, maybe 80-10-10 works for them because they're more yang. Men generally tend to be yang, so maybe all that yin sweet fruit balances them out, that's why they've found the "perfect" diet. So it's perfect for them and for anyone else that it's perfect for. Is it perfect for everyone? Well that would be an extremely ignorant & obtuse thing to say, now wouldn't it?

Summer & sun & exercise are yang - which get balanced by yin tropical fruits.

Again I note that it's generally Northern-constitution people who have difficulties with too much sweet fruit, and especially in the winter.

If I moved to Florida, yeah I could probably thrive on nothing but pineapple. When I'm in the sun, I crave tropical & sweet juicy fruits.

Our newfound raw knowledge must be cross-checked with ancient wisdoms. To not have respect for eons of wisdom, would be extremely foolish of us.

If TCM views symptoms experienced by the new raw foodist as negative effects of an unhealthy diet, then it seems to me that the test comes from observing those symptoms over time. If raw food is an unhealthy way to eat, then the symptoms should appear gradually and increase as long as the diet is continued. If they are truly detox symptoms they should appear fairly quickly and be rare in a long-time raw foodist.

Sunshine's point is also a good one. As diverse and irregular as detox symptoms can be, it's too easy to assume that all things are caused by detox. It's important to consider other possibilities.

Traditional Chinese medicine, in terms of food, is based on centuries of careful observation of the effects food has on the body. In this sense, it is highly scientific and hard to argue with. [With ONE exception, which I will get to shortly.] Confusion arises because of the complexities of this approach.

Beyond simple yin and yang, foods can be "damp" or "wet", "hot" or "cold", contain "wind" etc... Each of these terms is not literal, but represents a constellation of symptoms or effects that can be observed in the person, when they eat that food. Sometimes one can have two or more of these cahracteristics simultaneously; someone eating a lot of fried or "hot" foods is likely to become too "hot air", for example. This would include symptoms such as a dry or sore throat, pimples, chancre/canker sores, etc... Interestingly, that state correlates almost perfectly with a "too acidic" state, for someone using "metabolic balancing". The aim is always to seek balance, to correct such imbalanced states by eating appropriate foods.

Note that people may be --and usually will be-- out of balance before eating something. If one person is already too "hot air" for example, then he/she must eat appropriate "cooling" foods to correct this; otherwise the imbalance will be exacerbated. BUT if a second person is too "cold damp" beforehand, then eating the same foods that are helpful to the first person will be harmful to the second. Foods must be matched correctly with the pre-existing state of the person eating them.

The specific foods must be chosen according to several characteristics, not just one, and then must be consumed in appropriate amounts for best results. Otherwise, a new imbalance may arise in another direction. For example, if someone who is "hot air" eats too many "wet" foods instead of the appropriate cooling ones, then they may end up becoming "wet hot" (characterised by .. sorry, folks... "wet" farts or semi-diarrhea, anmong other symptoms).

In this sense, it is very similar to the Ayurvedic approach, but a bit more complex. While it recognizes that one person may tend to be one way by birth (genetic tendency, if you will), it always looks at the existing state of the body, not just the underlying tendency. In this sense, it lends itself to better "fine tuning" of the diet than the Ayurvedic approach.

One other thing it shares in commong with Ayurveda, which is the one thing I mentioned above which it is easy to argue with: it emphasizes cooked foods. Soups, for example, are highly valued in Chinese cuisine. Admittedly, they can have helpful properties for people at certain times and in certain states, but most people here (myself included) favor raw foods to cooked. It is helpful to remember that in China and India, fields were traditionally fertilized with "night soil"; i.e., human excrement, often supplemented with bovine excrement (the latter more often used for cooking in Inida, in place of wood). Parasites and communicable disease germs were therefore rampant in those countries, making cooking highly advisable.

However, the underlying tendencies --that certain foods will tend to have certain effects on a person's state-- given under Chinese medicine are highly accurate and very useful, TI believe that the truths of Chinese food balancing can still be used in a mostly (or all) raw foods diet, even though one ignores half of the "wisdom" as it applies to cooked foods. ONCE and IF you learn to PROPERLY recognize your state/symptoms, you can learn which foods to eat, to properly re-establish balance (a healthy state) in your body. Diagnosis involves a lot more than simply looking at one's tongue! It involves looking at a large constellation of symptoms. A Chinese doctor will study the face, including skin, eyes and tongue, will notice things like posture, breathing and voice, and will feel the pulses (they characterise the feeling of the pulse at the wrist in several blood vessels, in a much more complex way than simply counting beats-per-minute, as we do in the West), before making a diagnosis.

The comments I read above in this thread, while completely understandable in the context of what the writers know, are perfect illustrations of the old adage, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring." If one studies Chinese "food lore" more deeply, it is probably the most detailed and accurate compendium of the effects of different foods on the human body that exists anywhere. One should not dismiss it lightly, based on superficial and anecdotal evidence that, to someone more knowledgeable, is obviously just incomplete and/or wrong.

Even with only a very limited, layman's understanding of it (acquired from living in Hong Kong for half my life while often healing health issues), I use it pretty much daily to keep myself better "balanced". I have twice in my life gone more than ten years without a single cold or flu, and can confidently say that --with the possible exception of some ultra-virulent new strain-- I will never get a cold or flu for the rest of my life, as long as I pay a little attention to my diet and apply the principles of Chinese food selection when I feel myself starting to get off-balance. Even when I have on rare occasion gotten sick, I knew at least a day or two in advance that I was putting myself at risk, because I knew I was getting out of balance and not taking the necessary steps to correct it quickly enough.

If you are interested in this topic, there are a number of books around that explain Chinese food selection theory under TCM, in English. Some are better than others; sadly, the best ones are the most diffucult to read. Perhaps the best thing is to find a Chinese person who is knowledgeable enough, and learn from them the basics that apply most often in your own case.

Its likely that TCM has as many assumptions as western medicine that aren't tested objectively. Its a strength and a weakness of a sort to have such a long tradition. ONe is that it is tested by time, the weakness is that other perspectives might be set aside because this is how its always been done...

good post above aquadecoco....



Mislu Wrote:

>I don't know of any other species
> which has any period of cooking. It could be very
> unnatural,

>but most things people do are
> unnatural. Computing, car driving, clothes,
> writing, language etc...


Mislu,

do clothes, car driving, computing, writing,
language change our digestive system?

if not, then it's not really an argument against raw diet.

Arkay, that's a really interesting post.... if you know the name of one of those books, I would love to read it. I think learning about what the ancient Chinese knew, will be the next step for me.

TCM is just another attempt to get away with cooking your food and disrespecting the environment and natural laws. While it's several steps above modern Western systems, it's hardly 'wise'.

Mislu - the chinese culture does NOT respect other species and there is tons of evidence for this, the most telling from my chinese friends! It is not a culture concerned with respect for other creatures, whether you can see that or not... maybe your level of respect for other species is on par with the chinese culture, so you don't see it.

I live in a city with has a huge percentage of Chinese people and they are flocking to Western medicine. Guess who I see in Western medicine waiting rooms..and guess who I see in acupuncturists' offices....

Neither Mislu nor Sunshine seems to have much faith in raw vegan diet...so naturally you would look to other practices for answers.



Sunshine, if you're just discovering TCM and think it's full of wisdom, that's fine. You can call me foolish if you like, it makes no difference to me.


I'm wondering why you're arguing in favour of cooked diet and a system which uses all kinds of dead animal parts and sea-creatures, etc on a Raw Vegan forum !!

Could I make a suggestion to this post and other posts I've read that use acronyms. Since I am new to raw foods and also to the world of vegan in general it would be helpful to have people spell out an acronym when first used for those of us less informed... like Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM). On this particular acronym it was easy to find on the net.. But others such as AGEs in another thread still baffles me.. Maybe I am the only one.. and not having to go search the net for the meaning of an acronym while reading a posted thread would be nice and less disruptive

thanks

Custom

Fresh,
I wouldn't discount that driving, t.v. computers etc... could change digestion. Its a faster paced life with those things, also our minds are more 'wired' than they ever have been. Clothing is much older, but that also could change digestion in some way, I don't know. We know it has thermal effects, which in turn changes everything.

Aquadeco,
Could you be a bit more specific about the disrespect you are seeing on the environment by chinese people? I also said that disrespect is a major problem for almost every culture. Modern ideas are influencing everyone on the planet, for good and bad. I'm not suprised that you see chinese going to western medicine. I know that TCM has been of more interest to the western world. Perhaps people are becoming more open to other options for health care, and other things. Whats wrong with that? Chinese people are exposed to all types of difficult things, like everyone in the modern world. Bad air, long working hours, toxins of all sorts, negative emotions, like most of the world everywhere.

Aquadecoco - I think you're totally misunderstanding the posts. To the point of sounding just plain ignorant. Nowhere did I express a belief that cooked food or animals are superior to raw food. The healing power of raw foods has been known since the beginning of time. Except in our Western civilizations we've stamped out that knowledge over the past 500 years, and we're just now re-discovering it. Hooray for us. But it's stuff that ancient people, ALREADY KNEW. Maybe they weren't 100% raw, but maybe they didn't need to be, either. In any case, they sprouted their grains as much as they cooked them, so to assume that ancient people say cooked food is better than raw food - is just plain wrong.

I believe we can learn alot from the wisdom of the ancients (even if we don't agree with everything) - and not just China, but spanning all continents. I want to know what they figured out a long time ago that we haven't yet - and add that to my existing raw knowledge.

To the point of sounding just plain ignorant.


Sunshine - your posts in this thread are full of strong labels and name-calling. That says a lot about you and nothing about me - you're the source of those words.




Mislu - stating opinions about one thing does not indicate that another thing is better or worse, it's just to describe that one thing.

All I really have to add to this is that I dont think health is this complicated. Our bodies were designed to work properly just as everything in nature was designed to work properly. If we are having problems with our health it can only be related to our digression from nature.

And sunshine, I DID wander way off the topic of your original post, because of my 3 years of trying to grope my way back to health using DTCMs and the massive conflicts they had with Nat. Hyg. and spending wayy too much money on it - it struck a nerve. Those years were my own fault for not listening to myself and trying to find an easier route to health.

However I still love the DTCMs - all the ones I know are sweet and full of good intentions.

TCM is a facinating subject along with shamanism, aryuveda etc.

for the reasons mentioned above regarding the use of animal (endangered) products , its solely the reason i dont support the TCM community. Ive been to several asian apothacaries and they do still provide medicines with these animal parts contained

that said .. the rest of the *theory* behind TCM is quite facinating



the WWF (world wildlife federation) asks that if you want to use TCM please request from your suppliers that they do not involve themselves in the illegal trade of wildlife parts

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service import statistics show that between 1985 and 1992, nearly 2 million medicinal items containing wildlife parts or derivatives were known to be imported into the United States. Of these, thirty percent contained or purported to contain endangered or protected species, and were either confiscated or forfeited to the government. Between 1996 and 1998, USFWS wildlife inspectors seized nearly 36,000 medicinal items containing parts or derivatives of endangered or protected species.

In addition to possibly containing protected species, most of these medicines have not been approved for sale by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA). As a result of these and other restrictions, many medicines are not properly declared upon import to the United States and are instead smuggled into the country. Because of this, there are no comprehensive official statistics on the size of the trade in traditional Chinese medicines; however, the growing availability of these products in U.S. markets suggests that the trade is much larger than reported.

Rhinoceros and Saiga antelope horns, tiger and leopard bones, musk glands from musk deer, bear gallbladders, fur seal bacula (penis bone), and American ginseng roots are some prominent examples of parts and products from endangered, threatened, or protected species that are used in both prescriptions and patented traditional medicines. Other protected animal species whose parts are used to make traditional medicines include sea lions; macaques; pangolins; crocodiles; green sea turtles; freshwater turtles; tortoises; water monitor lizards; cobras; ratsnakes; sharks; and giant clams.

[www.worldwildlife.org]

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2007 07:39PM by Jgunn.

this [www.itmonline.org] is a great article on the parallels of tcm and aryuveda ...sorry its too long to cut and paste

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Jgunn,
Thats a bit of a problem. I'm always a bit unsettled when I see a description of an endangered animal in an herb book, or formula. The book I have always gives alternatives to endangered or rare species. I must admit that unfortunately, some of these things probably actually work, but people are so quick to dismiss all of TCM as superstition for this reason. A better stratagy is probably to emphasize alternatives within TCM or from other sources.

i think there is a lot to take from it and just be aware of the unsavory side of it ... i dont shop at herbalists that support these products

there are alternatives for certain ...i try to imagine back in the early days .. woould a native man who was hurt or sick ...wrassle down a tiger, bear or shark for a body part or would he have saught out a plant, herb, fruit veggie nut seed or something ? hehe

i wish there was more information on the ying/yang , dosha etc of the plant world as opposed to the animal critters .. its probably out there ..sometimes its hard to find things specifically on the internet

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

I'm w/ Custom..keep T acronyms on the D/L. I'm calling the ACLU!
___________

also, it seems like consistently - to me - that often someone starts a thread about some relevation/system etc..that is working for them..then others (maliciously, or just out of some great desire to be right) try to shoot it down.

personally, I agree one can't argue with ying and yang as a universal concept, doesn't mean you have to follow any system that was invented to get ill people well,

The key, that Arkay pointed out (dude you need to be more consise, didn't I just say I hate reading about health...LOL) is that people are out of balance before they eat 'X' 'yin' or 'yang' food. Doesn't mean they can't potentially thrive on more yin foods or that your organs will fall apart or whatever.

We all have some 'pre-existing state', (to use those terms) to deal with and preferably play around with. Some might say they are trying to go from 0-50 in 2 seconds but the car is just fine, others might see that they should be riding an entirely different automobile, perhaps one from another country, who knows...

There is no ideal diet that will work for everyone at every juncture, yet saying someone has success with a certain program because they are male, active etc...while it might have some truth to it, is equally in the dark. It is really more about finding the right fuel for your own JOY...and balance of course.

IMO the best way to balance a scale is to have nothing.

then one is very comfortable with whatever 'wetness' they can find..ha!

YANG YANG YANG

_______________________________________
_____________________



it could be your thoughts...

[www.writerwriterwriter.com]
[www.lulu.com]


short and sweet....and DEEP

_____________________________________________________ ...and FREE

Custom,

Here you go: AGEs.

I like the concept of yin/yang as a means to describe our reality, especially where humans are involved. It seems part of the human condition to divide things into 2 (or opposites), always creating duality, with concepts like hot/cold, light/dark, masculine/feminine, duality/non-duality, etc. The Tao goes on to say that the reality is neither one aspect or the other of any duality, but a harmony between those elements.

While the Taoist were ingenious, a lot of the ideas of TCM are an attempt to create balance in humans who are eating an unnatural diet based on foods grown during the civilized period of man. These civilized foods have unbalanced humans, and the TCM (and Ayurveda) attempt to restore balance by providing a counterbalance to the unnatural foods that man is eating. The raw approach is quite different in that there no attempt to provide counter balance to unnatural foods like grains or meat, but instead to remove the unnatural foods and replace them with foods that are congruent with the human anatomy, physiology, and digestive system. If you were to compare the human digestive system with all known animals, the closest digestive system to the human digestive system are those of the great apes, and those animals are frugivores, not granivores or carnivores.

For my own personal tastes (and body), if I were to classify foods by either balanced/yin/yang, here is how I would classify them:

Balanced: Fresh fruit. Non-bitter greens
Yin, dulling foods: raw plant overt fats
Yang, stimulant food: all the rest (meat, grains, milk, alcohol, etc)

Bryan,
Thank you for your comments. Its interesting, but I have a few problems with it. First of all the term 'civilization'. Most people equate agriculture and civilization and grain eating as a step forward, and something positive, and somehow less violent. When in fact that is the start of our current global environmental problems.

Comparing primate nutritional needs potentially opens one up to arguements about what is ideal. Some items on the primate diet are not advocated on this board.

jGunn,
I often wondered something similiar myself, except in more broad terms other than just animals. For instance, I never would have thought to use cinnabar as medicine, which it is used in TCM. Of course you can't cook this one, as it would greak down into elemental mercury and oxygen.

Other things are various mixes of herbs which are very unlikely to happen naturally. Herbs which come from distances hundreds or even thousands of miles away, and became ripe at different times. The grinding of minerals and their use in medicine, I am not sure thats a natural thought for someone to eat minerals. Most of which you could NOT eat without a great deal of processing and cooking and mixing with other herbs.

Not to mention the use of toxic herbs, which by themselves could kill you or cause damage to organs. These are natural, but its not immediately natural for people to consume them in their natural state. I find those types of things very fascinating. TCM and aryuvedic sciences are very developed, and unnatural in a sense because many forumulas aren't purely by instinct and take a great deal of skill to do properly.

Some herbs in TCM are pretty rare and at risk. I know people have a heightened sensitivity to animal derived products, but keep in mind that plants can also be at risk as well. For instance wild ginseng is very, very rare and fetch very high prices if found, due to how high its valued.

Bryan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For my own personal tastes (and body), if I were
> to classify foods by either balanced/yin/yang,
> here is how I would classify them:
>
> Balanced: Fresh fruit. Non-bitter greens
> Yin, dulling foods: raw plant overt fats
> Yang, stimulant food: all the rest (meat, grains,
> milk, alcohol, etc)


Yeah but Bryan, that's what balances YOU, personally - the actual yin/yang of those foods doesn't change. It just means that you're currently more yang and your body seeks balance by craving yin sweet fruit. Maybe one day you'll no longer need yin food, and will find yourself craving more vegetables, grains, etc.

This yin/yang concept presents the most plausible explanation for the high incidence of "failure" seen in fruitarian diets.... because it's not actually failure... it's a sign that previously yang bodies have become balanced, and thus the body now seeks balanced food (see balanced list above). In which case, people may find themselves feeling better on even cooked grains & vegetables.... it doesn't mean that cooked food is superior, because obviously grains can be sprouted.

What it means is, we should listen to our bodies and start experimenting with different foods when we stop feeling optimally healthy, instead of assuming that it's just detox.