Mislu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fresh,
> Here is a short list of conditions for which
> people seek treatment by TCM.
> [www.aworldofchinesemedicine.com]
> icine-conditions.htm
>

thanks for that.

> by the theory that any disease is caused by paterns
> of disharmony.

this is nebulous and doesn't mean anything.

it's good that TCM gives some attention to diet.

but the bodymind has certain requirements.
these have been best elucidated by NH.
if those requirements are not satisfied, illness will result.

only by satisfying those requirements can health return, not by taking herbs or sweating out the illness, or identifying and attending somehow to organs that are supposedly dysfunctional. it simply does not make any sense logically or practically to focus on certain organs as TCM does.

both eastern and western "medicine" are puzzled as to true cause and therefore invent treatments that seem to work.

Well, you can't just flatly state that Natural Hygiene has it all figured out and that the ancient Chinese had no idea what they were talking about. If that's your opinion, fine, but that doesn't make it a FACT.

In order for such a thing to become a fact, you would have to sample 2 populations with the same illness/symptoms, then do a side-by-side comparison of TCM & NH to determine which works better.

As far as I know, there currently doesn't exist such a study.

And "patterns of disharmony" simply means an imbalance.

I'm not saying I think TCM is superior, but I certainly would keep an open mind to anything I wasn't incredibly knowledgeable about. MAYBE they figured out some pretty neat things that we'd be foolish to dismiss as ancient mystical hoo-ha.

sunshine79 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, you can't just flatly state that Natural
> Hygiene has it all figured out and that the
> ancient Chinese had no idea what they were talking
> about. If that's your opinion, fine, but that
> doesn't make it a FACT.

hi sunshine,

if you look at what i wrote, you will see that i didn't say that.
i said that NH "best" defines it.

> In order for such a thing to become a fact, you
> would have to sample 2 populations with the same
> illness/symptoms, then do a side-by-side
> comparison of TCM & NH to determine which works
> better.

i'm saying nothing "works". no cures, no treatments.
otherwise species could not have thrived over the millenia, if specialized knowledge of treatments was required.

do other species seem to have need of TCM ?

> As far as I know, there currently doesn't exist
> such a study.
>
> And "patterns of disharmony" simply means an
> imbalance.


imbalance doesn't mean too much to me, and i don't want to get into details of TCM. I'm not saying there is nothing of value. I'm saying generally speaking it is not a coherent system based on true cause of health.

TCM, like any other system of treatment does not properly define.

it's not TCM in particular that i think is off base, its any system that (although it may claim to address cause), does in fact not.

it's not my intention to say that "I" am right.

this is simply a philosophical point about health that i am making - and it's amazing to me that even those in the most forward thinking arena of raw health still cling to treatments and cures.

hoo-ha to you !



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2007 10:39PM by fresh.

i see tcm and nh as two different horses of differnt colors

one to me is a system of *fixing* whats already wrong

the other is a system of taking what you have and making it better so you dont have to *fix* it later

both have their merits but their really not comparable in my opinion and trying to compare them seems like flogging a dead horse .. lol

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Its funny that there would be so much support for TCM or Ayurveda on this forum, especially when both of these schools of thought say that raw foods are not good for the body. On the other hand, the NH folk say that raw food is the natural diet of man.

Both TCM and Ayurveda have their own kinds of medicines to heal illness. NH says that medicines are unnessary and in fact can make things worse. NH says the body heals itself without medicine. If this were not the case, humans would be the only species alive on this earth, since animals don't medicate themselves.

Fresh,
Thank you for your points. I found an interesting webpage about NH.
[naturalhygienesociety.org]
Its interesting to see this persons tongue change. In TCM this is diagnostic. I don't know if fasting is routinely suggested in TCM, but I have heard it described. Usually the people are taking in energy sources from external sources somehow. Some claim to go for extended periods of time without food.

I think at best TCM hopes to assist healing. Toxic states are described and treated in TCM. Usually herbs, and accupuncture. I received a treatment. I wasn't sure what was happening, but after going home from a treatment I started really, really farting horrible, horrible smells. Much much worse than normal. I actually called the clinic to ask them what was going on, and if it was normal, and a sort of 'what did you do to me?'. They said I was toxic and that I was detoxing. The next treatment I also got herbs, and it continued for several days. When it was finished, I did feel better, and my tongue changed too. Its completely possible to self heal, but its better to have a guide, either by TCM or perhaps NH.

But you are correct there is a fundemental difference between any system of medicine and NH. I think the webpage is interesting, I haven't read it all. But I would like to read more and keep an open mind. The part about toxemia is interesting, with the limited knowledge I have of TCM, I haven't come accross toxemia as being a universal cause. The cause of disease in TCM appears to be one or more blocks in the smooth flow of chi in the body.

Bryan,

I'm not sure if animals DO NOT medicate themselves. Many herbs used in TCM came into use by observing animals seeking out particular substances, when they are sick, injured, or have particular needs. They observed the animals change after consuming them.

Some herbs that tonify the kidney Yang were arrived this way. Some animals eat cordecep before and during mating season. Also horny goat weed got its name after a farmer noticed goats becoming particularly sexualy active after consuming this plant.

Some other herbs are sought out by pregnant animals, which turn out to be very high in particular minerals and other nutrients. I believe several tonic herbs came into use by these observations.

While its true animals used instinct to do these things, so I guess its not quite medicine in the same way that people may consciously choose particular substances. I think its actually more difficult to consciously choose things. Perhaps we as a species have lost touch with our more instinctive nature.

Mislu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perhaps we as a species have lost touch with our more
> instinctive nature.


I think that's true and I think it's also true that we ARE meant to be instinctive about our food choices. My whole life I've been able to zero in on what specific raw foods my body needed at any given time... strangely, my mom recently told me that her natural healer lady had read my energy when I was a toddler and predicted that I would be able to do this - I think my mom was concerned about my health when I was a baby and the lady wrote to her not to worry about it, as I would always know what foods to choose for myself. Weird!

Mislu,

Ah, but do animals go to another animal specializing in Traditional Animal Medicine (TAM), and take the advice of the TAM practitioner to figure out how to heal themselves? Or do they just do what they always do, and somehow manage to get well?

Or perhaps they go to their TAM practioner, who them sticks them with metal needles until they feel better.

Mislu, why are you interested in raw foods? Based on your TCM, you shouldn't be eating this stuff. In fact, there is no medicine-based healing paradigms that says you ought to be eating so much raw foods. The only healing school of thought that I know about who promote raw foods are the NH people.

The fact that TCM says raw foods are damaging to health, and this goes 100% against my own personal experience, tells me that the TCM folk really don't know what they are talking about,

I wanted to add that although I don't know enough about TCM to be able to fully comment on that particular discipline, the reason I think it's important to keep an open mind about ancient healing practices in general throughout the world is because before Western medicine, there was no prestige in such things. Healers lived modestly and without fanfare and were either blessed with holy knowledge or passed down their wisdom from generation to generation... people can dismiss it if they want, but I personally prefer to keep an open mind. Especially when what they're recommending, like my mom's healer, who I think was about 75 in the 1970's and was the old-fashioned, spritual type healer who can be found in remote places in Europe - is a mostly raw, plant-based diet. This is how we today know about the healing power of raw foods - from ancient spiritual wisdom that has been passed along and has now gained momentum. Who invented the raw diet? Nobody. Where did it come from? Nobody could tell you exactly, because everyone learned it from someone else, and that someone else learned it from a previous someone else - ancient knowledge being passed along. That's why when I read about ancient healing practices, I listen. Maybe I'll learn something new that I didn't yet know. Neither Gabriel Cousens nor Doug Graham, David Wolfe or anyone else thought up this stuff on their own, they all learned it from previous people, and they're constantly building on their existing knowledge, as all of us will also continue to do.

Bryan,
I already stated it was instinct and not medicine as humans practice it.

Bryan,
That is a point of confusion for me about TCM. I was really quite suprised that some schools of thought in TCM advocate no raw foods. I was quite shocked. I told a practioner that I totally bind up if raw foods are totally missing in my diet, and she quickly clarified that some people benefit from some raw food, people with powerful digestions. I don't quite understand it myself.

On the other extreme I didn't have the success I thought I would with a completely raw and vegan diet. There are a few difficult points. I know it sounds weak, but socially it caused a lot of problems. I have always stuck out like a sore thumb socially, and that didn't help. Another is constantly obscessing about food, which I tend to do anyway. Absolute adherence to any dietary ideal does not help this tendancy.

I do however feel blessed with eating more fresh foods than I used to, and less animal based foods. I do honestly feel better. The living foods board has shifted my general habits, and I hope that it has done that to the world in general. After reading a bit more from the NH board I feel better. Because it officially states that the recommended diet is ideal, and that people are human and may not always be able to live up to the ideal 100% of the time. But I do know and agree that anyone can benefit from having gotten closer to natural habits.

I agree with you needling isn't really natural. A more accurate statement would be that its less invasive, and lower tech than western medicine. To western practioners quite often this equals 'outdated' and not real medicine. But it is several steps closer to natural than giving pills for everything, and removing organs because one hasn't been sensitive enought to catch problems before that is needed.

Mislu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> and she quickly clarified that some people benefit
> from some raw food, people with powerful
> digestions. I don't quite understand it myself.


interesting. often we make the mistake of thinking about things in a static instead of a dynamic way. could it be that strength of digestion (whatever that means) is a dynamic process? kind of closes us down to investigation and changes when we think statically.

The comment about digestion sounds like a disguised: " we don't know why you feel better eating raw, so there must be some exceptions we can't explain, but let me respond to this in a nebulous way so you don't understand it and hopefully don't challenge me on it"


I was tired of dtcm,s trying to make my symptoms and conditions fit their expectations, just like West. med. doctors (who are 1000 times more dumbed-down).

There is a tendency for us to think 'ancient' cultures didn't make mistakes, and it is generally the case that most lived a lot closer to nature than we do (could any culture live more UNnaturally than we do?), but isn't it obvious they were making mistakes if they needed healers and medicine men?

To the extent that any medicinal discipline overlaps NH -- like recommending moderate exercise, sunshine, rest, etc. -- it is correct. But in the areas where it counters NH such as when TCM claims that raw foods are unhealthful or when it attempts to turn off symptoms or "assist" the body in healing, it is incorrect. There is no such thing as assisting the body to heal. NH is only nature, nothing more and nothing less.

If an animal is observed to eat plants that we perceive to have 'medicinal' benefits, it's because that animal regards the plant as food. Animals do not self-medicate. Medicine is entirely a human invention and is practiced by no other species on earth. People who claim to have observed such phenomena are allowing their own very strong, unquestioned beliefs about medicine to influence their conclusions. Unbiased science is actually very rare in modern research, especially that which happens in the areas of human nutrition and health.

Where medicine is concerned, people tend to think of Eastern as being superior over Western. While it may be true that the synthetic drugs used by the latter are inherently more harmful than their herbal counterparts, the two share the same ineffective and destructive aim -- to stop the body from symptomatically expressing itself, which necessarily stops healing as well. It is not "assisted" healing which takes place when remedies are administered, it is impeded healing. It is the body doing its incredible work even when we do our best to get in its way.

Best wishes,
Nora
www.RawSchool.com

I agree with Nora - so few people ever give themselves the chance to experience the body healing itself unaided, so they have no real knowledge of or trust in it.


Personally I hate fasting. I'm terrible at it. But I believed in it from the time I first learned about it. It resonated with things I had already experienced.

My paternal grandmother quietly fasted every Sunday (Norwegian). People do it but don't announce it.

Aquadeco,
I think there is a lot of truth in what you say. But I think overal I think she wanted to confirm my experience, and place it in a TCM view. Its easier to control and manage if placed in a box. That is what you said isn't it?

Nora,
Yes, humans are so great at giving things names, identifying things, making up chemicals, modifying, inventing thinking. A lot of people think this makes people superior to other things. But, I think its a mistake to think thats the only thing, especially if it distorts our true place in the world.

The question of a tonic medicinal herb and a food is blurred. A number of herbs in TCM and Are-you-veda are also foods. There is also food therapy, selecting particular foods for particular reasons. A great example of 'food herb' is goji berries, its greatly promoted in raw foods circles, but its a tonic herb as well, added to soups, or tonic formulas. Generally its not eaten by itself. So its hard to say if its really a food or an herb. Yi Yi Ren is also a food, but also an herb. I am sure there are many other examples.

General statement and question to everyone,

I find NH interesting, but I am a bit confused about something pretty basic. I don't understand why people are skeptical of medicine in any form. But can't NH be viewed as a type of medicine?

The diagnosis for any condition and every condition seems to be toxic accumulations of various types, caused by or aggrevated by a lack of energy or an overload of toxic substances. Disease is the answer not the problem. I still have a difficult problem with that. Can anyone confirm that this is the actual NH view? I am not saying agree or disagree, but let me know if that is the view.

Treatment is pretty simple, eat raw natural food, seek as natural an environment as possible, drink pure water, breath pure air. Another treatment is fasting. There was some commentary on hydrotherapy, I haven't read that yet, but just scanning it appears that its not quite NH.

So, can these simple things be NH 'medicine'? Diagnosis-toxic accumulation Treatment-natural living, defined by whole natural raw organic foods, adaquate sleep, pure air and water, sunlight, fasting as needed.

Some on the board seem to give quite a bit of nutritional advice that is sort of medicininal. Especially with the 8/1/1. Diagnosis, treatment and prevention of disease via the recommendation of 8/1/1. For diabetes, heart problems, hypertention etc... Sounds a little like medicine.

Yes definitely there are lots of these things and when we're talking raw, I really don't see any difference between "tonic herb" vs. "food"... what would be the difference? Chamomile can be eaten as an enjoyable salad item or taken to be medicinal... same with fennel seeds... and any bitter foods - radicchio and dandelion leaves, for instance, are liver cleansers... anytime someone craves a particular food, that food is probably medicinally beneficial to them... to see a healer maybe just means our instincts are a little bit off and we need some guidance on what foods/herbs to eat... or not eat.

I had some muscle spasms a few months ago... did some research, went to the health food store, I believe it was pumpkin seeds or something I needed... and voila, the muscle spasms disappeared just like that.

Here are some of the common definitions of medicine:

1. any substance or substances used in treating disease or illness; medicament; remedy.
2. the art or science of restoring or preserving health or due physical condition, as by means of drugs, surgical operations or appliances, or manipulations: often divided into medicine proper, surgery, and obstetrics.
3. the art or science of treating disease with drugs or curative substances, as distinguished from surgery and obstetrics.

In western medicine (as well as TCM, Ayurveda) you do one thing when you are healthy, and if you get sick, you take various substances until you get well. These substances are considered poisonous and are not taken when you are well, as they can and will make a healthy person sick.

Hygiene is different in that they say to do the same thing regardless of whether you are sick or well. One of hygiene's basic health practices is getting enough rest so that your body can heal itself. This is true whether you are sick or well. Diet is a bit part of the hygiene arsenal, and basically the diet says don't eat foods that are toxic, and eat no more than your body can handle given your current lifestyle requirement and your body's ability to digest and eliminate toxins in those foods. This also applies to whether you are sick or well.

Hygiene recognizes that digestion is one of the most energy intensive things your body does. So if you are sick, and short on energy to heal yourself, put yourself into a state of complete physiological rest. That is, get to bed and don't eat, because digestion takes a ton of energy. In this state of complete physiological rest, your body will be able to heal itself without the usage of drugs, curative substances, or rememdies. No help is needed, in fact what is needed is to get out of the way so that your body can heal itself.

I get the NH theory - but also, it comes with a pretty important caveat... let's see if we can figure it out...

So what does the NH practitioner say to me when I complain of mild but kind of annoying muscle spasms accompanied by a mild "not quite right" feeling - i.e. slightly jittery?

What's the caveat sunshine?

Step 1

Attend to all of the following:

Pure air
Pure water
Cleanliness—both internal and external
Sleep
Temperature maintenance
Pure wholesome food to which we are biologically adapted
Exercise and activity
Sunshine upon our bodies
Rest and relaxation
Play and recreation
Emotional poise
Security of life and its means
Pleasant environment

Step 2:

how much sleep, how much exercise, more detail into proper diet, etc.

>>So what does the NH practitioner say to me when I complain of mild but kind of annoying muscle spasms accompanied by a mild "not quite right" feeling - i.e. slightly jittery?

Hew will say "No soup for you!"

Mislu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Aquadeco,
> I think there is a lot of truth in what you say.
> But I think overal I think she wanted to confirm
> my experience, and place it in a TCM view. Its
> easier to control and manage if placed in a box.
> That is what you said isn't it?


If you mean what I said about your DTCM and her comment about digestion, what I meant was that it seems she didn't herself understand why you felt better eating raw food and that she felt she should have an 'answer' for you. But as you said, the answer didn't clarify the matter for you - nor does it make sense to me.

It doesn't matter to me what everyone else here eats or concludes - but it goes against my grain to leave an assertion I strongly believe is erroneous undebated, since many people will read it and will likely use it in their diet decisions. I like to add my opinion in favour of or against basic ideas, .... this might help others in their quest for raw diet, just as knowing other people's experiences has greatly helped me.



Sometimes on forums and in life, the loudest voice gets the most attention. For people who mostly want to be noticed, this is their reward. But the loudest or most persistent often isn't the wisest. So the quieter voices are important - they're often speaking so the essence of their ideas can reach others - not as a means to grab attention.

As to the debate about NH vs. TCM and others - some people have argued that raw food can't cure what some supplements, etc can.

I have never understood NH to assert that raw food or any food cures anything, only the body, in accordance with natural laws, can heal itself.

In some people's minds, eating anything is the same as taking medicine. In that case, is penicillin is food...? Is charcoal food? Lots of things are edible, but does that make them food? The one thing I've always heard from true NHers is to fast whenever there is a sickness and resume eating when true hunger returns. Really simple.

Mislu,
I greatly respect your honest and open inquiry. Did Bryan's post answer your questions?

The only thing I would add is that the line between food and medicine is not blurry at all. Eating anything to stop a symptom is abusive to the body, regardless of whether what is eaten is popularly regarded to be food or medicine or both. Symptoms are healing. The only way to appropriately stop them is to remove their cause. It is a mistake to think that symptoms are caused by deficiencies of substances found in herbs or foods thought to be "healing" foods. Deficiency is so extremely rare that it is safe to say that EXCESS is the cause of all disease.

Most foods that are thought to have "medicinal" properties are actually too toxic to truly be considered foods by any objective standard. Many of those named in the above posts would fall into this category. These foods are popular among transitioning raw fooders because they are very stimulative and can create in the body some of the same feelings that we experienced when eating cooked food. But their use should be gradually curtailed, if optimal health is sought.

To call NH a form of "medicine" is to blur the definition of the word. Medicine is specifically the art form which seeks to suppress symptomatic expression. NH holds that symptoms should never be suppressed and that there is no such thing as a "cure". Not only is NH not a form of medicine, the two are opposites.


"anytime someone craves a particular food, that food is probably medicinally beneficial to them... to see a healer maybe just means our instincts are a little bit off and we need some guidance on what foods/herbs to eat... or not eat."

Cravings should not be elevated to the level of legitimate signals from the body. They are the effects of addiction, pure and simple. The more a person ignores them, the healthier s/he will be. Additionally, if seeing a "healer" did what you're saying it does -- gave us information about how to live healthfully -- it would be a wonderful thing. The problem is, very few health practitioners understand the conditions that create health. NH really holds the patent there. What is taught by health practitioners is the opposite of health because there are always remedies involved and whenever a remedy is administered, healing is slowed down.

What a fine discussion. Thanks, All.

Warm wishes,
Nora
www.RawSchool.com

I agree that EXCESS is the cause of all disease, which is why animals - being absent from such excess - live fine within the law of nature and have no need of medicinal practices or therapies of any kind.

humans - to put it bluntly - have a s#!^^y history and need to reverse their state of health, therefore any tools that they can employ that can help create and sustain good habits are GOOD, the ones that block symptoms or cloud/allow to continue pursuing bad habits are not as good.

NH is an incredibly linear concept, which is why people are constantly trying to defend it. TCM is a concept based in getting already sick population well, people love civilization, tradition, and putting stock in old stuff, which is why people are constantly trying to defend it.

If you don't have a theory or program, and you just do what works for you, then when things start NOT working for you, having the openness to accept that - that IS the reality, you will also have the openness to step outside ANY existing theories and do whatever is right for that moment because you have a greater understanding of love. This is impossible with a 'Type A' "I AM RIGHT AND THIS IS THE LAW' personality/belief system.


TC Fry's list (I think thats what fresh posted) is great..everyone should pursue those as goals in which each is not dragging far behind another. But its usually doing the RIGHT things - like changing one's diet, that opens the gates of detox, be those the awaking of physical deposits..buried emotions...the confrontation of thought addictions...creating an inability to see love in the world,

if doing what is natural solved all of these things independent of human invented tools and practices, why would we be sitting in front of a radiating box tapping black scratches on plastic? or doing yoga? or talking with our friends/therapists/religious figures about our problems? or buying fruit instead of bashing the cashier over the head and taking it? or looking at something so beautifully man-made that inspires us to change our habits in the first place.

good night

I just looked up Natural Hygiene for myself... and ok, you guys kind of have it wrong, now I understand why I was getting frustrated with your explanations. It actually dates back to natural healing therapies of the 1800's - which is what I was saying in my posts above, that these ancient natural healers from which the current raw food movement descends - they all recommended dietary therapy - i.e. removing the dietary cause of disease.

Which is exactly what I was trying to get to with my muscle spasm question above.

I was trying to get someone to ask me what I had eaten in the days prior to the spasms - and despite my answer of "a mostly raw food diet" - they would ask, "But did you eat any sugar?" Yes. "Did you drink any coffee?" Yes. "Did you drink any alcohol?" Yes.

Why is this is significant?

Yes Anaken is exactly right, that's what I meant by the caveat - that in order for NH to work as described in this thread, one has to become whole first.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2007 02:59AM by sunshine79.

The reason those things are significant - what I ate in the days prior to having muscle spasms - is because all of those things will deplete or leech vitamins & minerals from the body... in other words leaving me with a deficiency. See, the answer to the muscle spasm isn't fasting - it's figuring what caused the spasm in the first place, then solving that. Clearly I ended up with a deficiency because my dietary habits had made me un-whole. I needed something to make me whole again and fill in the depleted nutrients, which in this case was achieved by me eating pumpkin seeds.

But in Nora's & Bryan's versions - it just doesn't sound like that. I mean maybe I'm misunderstanding your guys's posts - but when I looked up NH it seemed to be pretty similar to my own understanding of what causes & fixes diseases - as well as mirroring the understanding of my mom's natural healer and many natural healers before her. DIET! I would add to that, very importantly - KNOWING WHICH FOODS to choose once someone has made themselves un-whole.