sunshine79,

It has been my experience that for healing to take place, a person has to become whole in terms of their mind/body/spirit connection. Some of this I alluded to in the Cures any and all diseases? thread, and I also wrote about this in the Success on the raw foods diet article.

If by whole though you mean that a person has to already be healed to heal themselves, no, I don't think NH or anyone is saying this. Having the conditions for health to be present is enough. For for many, eating a clean enough diet is a showstopper for the multitude of reasons we've all heard before.

Yes, Bryan, exactly! Becoming whole first. So then we were saying the same things, but in different ways.

Rawnora,
I appreciate your response, Bryans, and actually everyones. Its really great to start to understand the difference perspectives. Its really simple, but for some reason it was hard to get. I think its because most peoples modern sense of what is natural just isn't.

I think the part about complete resting for healing, including not eating is something I never got before, even though I myself have done fasting, because it was good to do that. I'm still not sure what signals to look for that indicate that a fast would be a good idea.

Also the part about ones general habits is important. That makes sense, how can one expect true healing to take place if you go back to the same old bad habits? whatever caused the condition is very likely to re-create the condition if nothing has changed.

I don't quite understand the commentary on tonic herbs. Actually, most of those are taken when you feel well. Its more specific herbs which are consumed when one has obvious symptoms of ill health. Or seeking relief from accupuncture for specific symptoms. I never thought of these things as being a problem, but it is sort of like taking tylenol or something. Except the stimulant is an herb or a given set of needling. It never occured to me when I got treatments that its perhaps not a good thing. Most people are taught to do something, or take something to find relief, or prevent the cold or flu from geting more serious.

Wow, I am really learning something. I might actually be able to form an opinion about NH. Prior to this I did not have a clue. It was just some vague idea of another sort of alternative 'therapy'. I think its really a different perspective about the body, and living.

There is a lot to understand that I still don't get. What does an NH practitioner do then? Is that person an advisor? Someone to help the person unlearn bad habits, unlearn and debunk all the loads and loads of conflicting information out there?

There is something which sort of bothers me. I read that one mans account of doing a fast, and I think that is something I would like to do. However, I don't know what to expect, how to break such a long fast, and how to do it safely. I know someone who has done fasts and monodieting for years. He says he has heart problems from fasting, and he actually fell down recently and hit his head seriously from a fainting spell. I don't know if its from fasting or from something else. He is vegetarian, and does eat quite a bit of fresh raw food. But he does some drinking, and eats some junk and rich food. But its only for about a two week period each year before christmas. I guess its his way of 'breaking loose'. But I know some people that would think that even this level of indulgence is far to austere for their liking.

I feel really changed in perspective. I must admit. I am a bit shocked now whenever I hear about anyone getting treatments for something. I car pool with someone who has prostate cancer. He is getting radiation treatment, which i don't care for. But I thought nothing about him taking herbs in conjunction with this. But now I am wondering if that is even advisable. But if I read the description in NH cancer is one of the later stages of toxicity and disease process, where its really almost too late to make effective recovery. Is that true?

It IS hard to get used to the idea that all the wisdom is there in the body and that we have to just let it be.

It seems easier to interfere and 'help out' somehow. And when we seem to get worse before we get better, we think we're doing something wrong!

It takes an open mind to really understand it, since it's so unlike how our society thinks.

Sunshine,

>I was trying to get someone to ask me what I had eaten in the days prior to the spasms - and despite my answer of "a mostly raw food diet" - they would ask, "But did you eat any sugar?" Yes. "Did you drink any coffee?" Yes. "Did you drink any alcohol?" Yes.


I was not in the mode of solving the issue that you presented - I was merely presenting NH concepts.
Of course ones recent dietary impacts a current problem and that is one
of the things that would be addressed, but all of the others would be addressed as well.


>The reason those things are significant - what I ate in the days prior to having muscle spasms - is because all of those things will deplete or leech vitamins & minerals from the body... in other words leaving me with a deficiency. See, the answer to the muscle spasm isn't fasting - it's figuring what caused the spasm in the first place, then solving that.

It may or may not have been a deficiency.
There could have been any number of things that you could have done that would have fixed the problem including fasting, more fluids, eating pizza, rest, movement, deficiency, etc.
Eating seeds could have corrected a deficiency, but it could also have temporarily fixed the problem because it stopped the movement of stored toxins causing spasms, or shifted the focus of the body to another area, or any number of reasons.

> I would add to that, very importantly - KNOWING WHICH FOODS to choose once someone has made themselves un-whole.

I still don’t see it like that, and it's ok that we see things differently.

For me, when I have had physical problems in the past I may have tried to do things or stop doing things to alleviate the problem, but my point is this:

Do you want to spend your time chasing symptoms and searching for remedies (specific curative foods ), even if for the sake of what you think is deficiency ?

(It occurs to me now that the reason people continue seeking treatments/remedies is that they have no health knowledge or knowledge but **no intention of changing** their negative health practices). In that case, sure, the only response is to be a user of treatments and seeker of specific agents of "cure".

Health seeking, to me, is not really focusing on the current problem (although it can inform as to what to emphasize) but instead taking a longer approach and engaging in healthful practices.

Health challenges arise less and less as we improve all aspects of health impacting activities.

Certainly if one is going to continue eating sugar and coffee and alcohol, then this is going to present a problem. Cause must be removed or you will be always fighting fires, looking for immediate remedies that may or may not work depending on circumstances.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2007 04:43AM by fresh.

Aquadeco,
Yes, I totally agree that its difficult to change certain ideas. ones which we have been taught for such a long time. I have a difficult time with the idea of getting worse before getting better.

As long as I have posted on this board and other raw food boards, the longest time I have gone 100% raw and vegan has been 3 weeks. What stopped that was some very disturbing symptoms. Severe fever, some horrible nightmares, heavy night sweats, I was really very freaked out over that. I cried like a baby. I didn't know what to expect.

Its difficult for me to trust that this is a step forward in health. It felt so awful, and naturally almost everyone I know would view this as a sign that I was doing something wrong. I told my partner and he thought I was just making myself sick with a 'stupid diet'.

Its really the release of deep accumulated toxins?

Mislu,

I think anyone who became 100% raw had to face the challenge you are facing about going through the discomfort of detoxification. I wrote about my detox in this post called Re: sucess/failure rates of vegan diets.

Mislu - I haven't had those exact symptoms, that must have been hard to go through.


I know people who find fasting quite easy - they say they're going to fast for 15 days and they just do it! I am very emotionally dependant on food and my body is very quick to detox, and I nearly always get depression along with my physical discomfort so .... I sort of dread it.

Bryan's account of taking 4 months off work, making his health his priority, has made me determined to do this for myself, as soon as I can arrange it.

I think there's a mind-body connection that could cause strong emotional episodes, but that' a whole other thread. Many people say they feel depressed when they cleanse, especially fasting, but it's hard to keep perspective when it's happening to you!

Remember that your brain is physical. Our organs are linked to production of neurotransmitters. No wonder we get emotional when they're stressed.

"What does an NH practitioner do then? Is that person an advisor? Someone to help the person unlearn bad habits, unlearn and debunk all the loads and loads of conflicting information out there? "

**Yes and yes. This is the only legitimate thing a health educator can do. Medicine should confine itself to fixing traumatic injury and genetic deformities and it should even do these with the minimum amount of intervention. Where medicine attempts to meddle in disease, it creates more disease.

Your friend's heart problems are not from fasting. Whatever belief system he's adhering to that spawned such an idea will be holding him back from experiencing optimal health. Dizzy spells can happen when a person fasts (this is a natural consequence of cleansing and is not dangerous in and of itself) and that's the #1 reason why people should not fast alone for more than a few days. And it can safely be assumed that anyone who cuts loose for 2 weeks out of the year is not being as good as he could be the rest of the time. It is these behaviors that are causing his ongoing problems, not fasting. I don't know any genuine health seeker who would abandon all the efforts s/he has invested in health for the entire year for a couple weeks of dietary debauchery. There is nothing on earth that would be so good as to be worth the suffering this would cause.

If you want to try fasting, just go without a couple meals and see how you feel. Work up from there. Read "Fasting Can Save Your Life" by Herbert Shelton.

"if I read the description in NH cancer is one of the later stages of toxicity and disease process, where its really almost too late to make effective recovery. Is that true?"

**It is only in the latter stages of cancer that recovery is not possible. The vast majority of diagnosed cancers are not cancer at all, since NH defines cancer as the point where cancer cells have metasticized throughout the body. Tumors are not necessarily cancer, even when they're diagnosed as such. Tumors are quite easy to get rid of; very often they come and go spontaneously. When tumors are diagnosed as cancer and the tumor goes away, another victory can be claimed by the cancer establishment. It's almost never too late for recovery, even from cancer. The fasting clinics who take people who have tried literally every medical treatment under the sun have extraordinarily high success rates, even though these people often arrive on the brink of death.

I must run and will be away from my computer for a few days. Thanks again and I hope this helps answer some of your questions. I would highly recommend reading the information at www.RawFoodExplained.com as well, especially the first 6 lessons about the fundamentals of health and disease. There is lots of good info on the lesson about cancer as well.

All the best,
Nora
www.RawSchool.com

hmmm..

a complex subject

setting aside the aspect of TCM ( generally though i do know of exceptions) not believing in raw foods

acupuncture is a very powerful method of healing

sometimes it heals maladies PERMANENTLY

sometimes the malady is not caused from faulty diet ( a person could vigilantly practice NH for their entire life and STILL have a problem due to

1. an accident ( like a car accident which effects chi flow and which acupunture could assist in unblocking to unblock pain in the neck etc.)
2. injury whether it be from sports etc.
one could have had a pristine diet for their entire lives but if they are into sports or some other activity that is prone to injury, TCM does have its place

i'm sure there are more examples

the majority of this post dealt with the herbal/ingestion aspects of TCM
but TCM goes beyond this

in a way, you could think of it as self healing if you knew how to perform acupunture on yourself

then there is qi gong

and.. there are also other things that go beyond as well

which is what u might consider as "energy work"

so... my point?

don't diss the entire iceberg just because you don't like one dent ( cooked food aspect) of it

there is an entire ICE underneath

uhh.., yeah... ice is not the best description


but u get the point

i respect everyone else's point here

great ideas and none really contradict each other ( as far as i can see)

just shelling out my two pence

clink clank.....

yes, you can always tell when the chi is flowing or not..in folks


if people would rather have their 'theories'...they can keep em.

Veronique,
Healing proceeds, albeit at a slower rate, even when the flow of nerve energy that transmits pain is disrupted, as it is with acupuncture. Acupuncture does not effect or hasten healing, it decreases pain. We rightly associate the abatement of pain with healing but one does not equal the other. It may sometimes appear that acupuncture "heals permanently" but this is either because other things were done that really do cause healing to occur (like dietary change), OR, the body was able to heal in spite of the treatments and continuing causes. In those cases, symptoms do not return. On those occasions when acupuncture does not "heal permanently", it's because the causes of the problem are still being indulged and the body is not able to overcome them. Pain may go away temporarily with acupuncture but it will return when the body is able to recover from the treatment. It is not possible to stop pain without slowing down the healing process. This is the case no matter what caused the original injury or disease. Most of the time when injuries don't heal, it's because the conditions that allow healing are not present (rest, proper food, etc.)

I guess I've dissed TCM as much as anyone here, but even I am not tossing out the whole philosophy, as you say. As I mentioned before, all of the so-called healing modalities overlap some simple truths and it is to that extent that they are legitimate. A TCM practitioner might recommend that his/her clients rest more, or exercise more, or eat less meat (?), etc., for example. It is only those parts of TCM which seek to suppress symptoms by further burdening the body that deserve condemnation.

Regards,
Nora
www.RawSchool.com

Interesting discussion, thank you for all your contributions. Prior to this discussion I always thought of TCM, Are-you-veda, chiropractors etc...as being 'natural'. Certainly they are compared to western medicine. But I had no idea how distinctly different NH is in thought and 'practice'. Anyone supplying advice on NH would have to be very, very clear about what to expect, that they aren't doing the healing, curing or supplying any treatment. That was something that I never knew.

I am now a little bit more wary about even traditional medicines to the degree that it might remove uncomfortable symptoms which need to be there to cause habits to change, which brings about healing. For example, I have a dear friend who took pain medications for his foot, which was having trouble. That was a signal for the body that something was wrong, and to stay off of it. He didn't do that often enough with the pain medication. He did consciously try to become less active, but its not the same as what pain would do. I know that its not fair to say when its not your body.

The only other thing I want to add is that if I woke up tomorrow to a world where NH was the only option, I'd be really nervous. God gave us plants for a reason. Me personally, I want to know all my options, not just have some guy tell me that all I need is bed rest or a fast just because he doesn't believe in deficiencies. But to each his own. Whatever works for YOU - that's all that matters. I believe healing wisdom has to come from God first and foremost - and to me that does not include strict adherance to any one man-made program.

I heal so fast it is ridiculous

The different schools of healing have their unique explanations of how disease occurs in the body. In Western medicine, germs and viruses are considered a major cause. In some eastern medicines, there might be imbalances of energy, imbalances of elements (earth, wind, fire), or imbalances based on your body type (doshas). Natural hygiene has its perspective on the the disease process, which in my opinion is well worth understanding. The above link is an excellent description of how disease starts outs as a common colds and ends up as cancer, and all the various stages in between.

sunshine79 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The only other thing I want to add is that if I
> woke up tomorrow to a world where NH was the only
> option, I'd be really nervous. God gave us plants
> for a reason. Me personally, I want to know all my
> options, not just have some guy tell me that all I
> need is bed rest or a fast just because he doesn't
> believe in deficiencies. But to each his own.
> Whatever works for YOU - that's all that matters.
> I believe healing wisdom has to come from God
> first and foremost - and to me that does not
> include strict adherance to any one man-made
> program.




I think of NH not so much as a woman made "program" it as an attempt to explain and put into practice natural laws.
Just like gravitational theory attempts to explain the reality of gravity.
atomic theory
cell theory
big bang theory are other theories that attempt to explain what we see and observe.

they are not man made programs in my mind.

so i see it as distinct from other programs or as nora said, it is Nature.

it involves an expectation of health - that is the difference - others expect disease and that we must correct the faulty body that nature has created.

[www.soilandhealth.org]

Bryan,

Just a little joke first... Earth, wind, fire is a band
[en.wikipedia.org]

Some further explanation on the elements.
[en.wikipedia.org]

I get the general idea of your reference to the elements, but 'wind' is a diagnosis in TCM not one of the five phases. But your statement about the theory is more or less correct that its fundemental.


I have a question, what would disprove the NH theory of the disease process?

Well, its a theory, and I suppose finding a single counterexample of a disease of the disease process would disprove it. This has been found in abundance for western medicine. For example, there are people who have the tuberculosis bacteria but don't have tuberculosis (about 1/3 of the population). Even though people get sick who don't have a germ, or people with a germ don't get sick, the mainstream is unwilling to give up the convenient and profitable germ theory.

Whether a theory has any value whatsoever is does what it says match your own personal experience or what you have observed in other people who are diseased?

Bryan,
Its nice to know that something about NH could be found to disprove NH. Which means its testable. But honestly, the more I think about it the more I question if anything is really truely provable and testable. Whats not specifically stated is the posibility that one will not recover from a disease doing NH. But that is out of line with the positive attitude that is required for healing. But part of 'scientific' investigations is trying to make something fail, and do 'double blind' tests. Thats kind of difficult or impossible to test that way if you consciously choose to live a natural lifestyle. You can't double blind natural living! Interesting, I always wondered why people quite often state they don't believe in science.

Science can 'prove' however that a particular drug or treatment can cause a very specific effect. For example lowering blood presure, or cholestrol. As if those things can be modified artificially without changing other things. As without understanding how those fit into the total organism, be it human or animal. Observation also affects outcome.

It is interesting to note that western medicines often use words like 'manage' and 'treat' or like words. Heal, cure are not used very often. Remission is more often used, or the closest thats generally used. I never really noticed that until reading a bit on NH.

The other part is peoples expectations about life and experience are so closely linked to perceptions about health, nutrition, beauty, quality of life. Some nutritional paradigms are difficult for me to adandon psychologically. The part about detox, not feeling good and equating to that as getting sick is an example. I percieve that as being deficient in something, or that I got sick from being weaked from an inadaquate diet. Also the idea of NH as being a lifelong habit, that you never ever depart from, that isn't an easy idea for me. I am sure these are common ideas for resistence, justification for habits or not trying NH.

Dealing with my partner is also not easy. My renewed interest is causing some concern that I am going to go to 'extremes' again. It also conflicts with our habit of going out to eat, its pretty sad that its one of our few 'social' outlets, but the interaction isn't really anything, just getting served. Eating only green salads is going to get boring quickly, and is likely to start raising questions, ones which I don't care to answer honestly, or be pressured into going into my old habits. There might be people in the area in NH, but it doesn't seem like there are many, its difficult enough to find a resturand which has just a plain green salad, let alone fresh fruit. Come to think of it I haven't seen a single resturant in the area which serves a fruit salad.

Another question I have about NH is that the theory makes sense on so many levels, but what about the actual practice? I would really have to undo a lot of notions about food, nutrition, and perhaps a lot of other aspects of living which I haven't even thought of yet. Habits can be difficult to change, I don't know how much natural instinct I have left, because I have been taught to suspend so many aspects, like instinctive selection of food, adaquate chewing(i usually eat incredibly fast and too much) worrying about x,y, or z nutrient and eating more because of that, eating because its time to eat. Eating things which are out of season or out of location, modern shipping provides a lot of foods which techinically might be fresh, but may not be appropriate to eat for a particular time of year or location. The food itself may not have the nutrition its supposed to have for any number of reasons.

Mislu Wrote:

>Whats not specifically stated is the
> posibility that one will not recover from a
> disease doing NH. But that is out of line with the
> positive attitude that is required for healing.

i really don't think that a positive attitude depends
on a 'guarantee' of healing, do you?

> But part of 'scientific' investigations is trying
> to make something fail, and do 'double blind'
> tests. Thats kind of difficult or impossible to
> test that way if you consciously choose to live a
> natural lifestyle. You can't double blind natural
> living! Interesting, I always wondered why people
> quite often state they don't believe in science.

during a transition one can easily see and test the validity of the philosophy, by the way that you feel. or you can compare health status indicators if you like.


> Dealing with my partner is also not easy. My
> renewed interest is causing some concern that I am
> going to go to 'extremes' again. It also conflicts
> with our habit of going out to eat, its pretty sad
> that its one of our few 'social' outlets, but the
> interaction isn't really anything, just getting
> served.

if you believe in it you will find a way to make it work.
how many times a week do you go out to eat?
nothing wrong with eating raw at home and relatively healthy cooked when going out.


> Come to think of it I haven't seen a single
> resturant in the area which serves a fruit salad.

because nobody has asked. you can be the one !

>I don't know how much natural
> instinct I have left, because I have been taught
> to suspend so many aspects, like instinctive
> selection of food

it's worth it to discover your nature again...
you animal!

i also commend you on your openmindedness and willingness to
learn something new.

>The food itself may not have the
> nutrition its supposed to have for any number of
> reasons.

true, but it's likely to be more nutritious than cooked.

rock on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2007 07:41PM by fresh.

Fresh,
Thank you for your response. Its overal very good at removing some blocks for not moving forward. It is true that you can have a positive attitude without any guarentee for healing. I just read something about positive feelings and optimism in the healing process in NH. I think that healing can occur without it, just that it sounds like it can proceed better and fast with a positive attitude, changing your ideas of what is happening. Being able to endure unpleasant things with the hope of better things to come.

Its also great to balance 'positive' attitudes with realism. I know that people can have ungrounded and unfounded positive attitudes. I know that its not popular in circles of 'power of positive thinking'. I know there is an unbalanced view because of positive people getting upset if they are reminded of limitations, things they forgot or didn't take into account. And then getting made or berating someone else as a 'kill joy'. Its not possible to do this if one has a complete grounded positive view.

Hi Mislu,

Rather than looking for proof (is disproof) of NH, I would invite you to have your own personal experience of it, of the health that it brings, and the possibilities that might arise from living a healthful lifestyle as described by NH.

I can see why it would be hard to abandon the idea that symptoms of detox are something to be avoided and feared rather than something to be welcomed and grateful for. Or that its hard to abandon the idea that being sick is deficiency rather than excess. But if you embrace the idea that symptoms are a sign that your body is healing itself, when you next get the occurrence of symptoms you will also see that you have something to look forward to, that is the elevated health that comes after the symptoms pass. By elevated I mean better health than before the symptoms came on.

The partner thing can be tough, but it is doable with a non-raw person. I've done it in the past, and my partner and I just ate different meals when we dined together. Or she would sometimes eat a raw meal with me. You are right that eating salad only at restaurants would get boring. What I do is when I go to restaurants with friends, I bring a bag of fruit with me and eat the fruit at the restaurant. The staff at the restaurants never seem to mind, as my friends are all ordering food from the menu. But its is rarer and rarer that I am in a restaurant (except for the raw restaurants like Cafe Gratitude).

You are correct about having to undo a lot of notions of health, stuff that we were all taught by our society, our teachers, our peers. But if you go with that philosophy, you will all get the outcome our society gets: chronic disease that never goes away. Its your choice, and now that you have some experience with raw and some knowledge of it, are you going to take your power back and heal yourself, or are you just going to be like everybody else and get chronically ill?

By the way, it is possible to not be 100% raw and still practice the NH ideas, and have a level of health that is superb. If you eat cooked foods, you just need to make sure that the habits that build health are mostly practiced and the habits that remove health are mostly eliminated. For myself, even though I went to a low fat raw vegan lifestyle, there are habits that I have been reluctant to let go of, things like staying up late at night and not getting enough sleep and rest. But I am unwilling to control my body and my mind to achieve the perfect habits. I prefer to bring consciousness to those habits, and over time they seem to lose their power and go away.

Even eating cooked foods, it is possible that at the end of each day, your body has fewer toxins in it had than the day before. And if you are able to establish this balance, your health will increase.

I think a study of scurvy could easily prove or disprove NH... it's a simple cure - eat vitamin C. But NH is against ADDING anything because they don't believe in deficiencies... I say certain foods & habits DO cause deficiencies, and those deficiencies have to be addressed first and foremost. I would be curious to know whether a fast could cure scurvy. I think I know the answer, but being a scientist at heart, I'm certainly willing to keep an open mind. Show me a scurvy patient who recovers without ADDING vitamin C, and I'll believe NH.

If NH says "well we advocate a whole-foods approach" - well that's great, so do I - meaning either add the correct plant foods to correct your imbalance, or take away toxins, and you'll recover just fine.

But in this thread we're being told YOU MUST NOT ADD ANYTHING. Which I think is ridiculous. But again, I'm completely open-minded, I love science. So show me some proof and call me a fool.

Until then, I will trust my own intuition which says that sometimes you need to take away, and other times you need to add.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2007 02:41AM by sunshine79.

sunshine79 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>Show me a scurvy
> patient who recovers without ADDING vitamin C, and
> I'll believe NH.


NH does not state that deficiencies do not occur.


> But in this thread we're being told YOU MUST NOT
> ADD ANYTHING.

if anyone said that, it's wrong.
i don't think i said that.
what i did say was that you adding pumpkin seeds does not prove that you had a deficiency, but it could have been.

if i drink coca cola and my headache goes away, did i have a deficiency?

Bryan,
I think that is very sage advice. One can spend several lifetimes studying, researching and not really find out anything, or find out that you know a lot about conflicting ideas. I would say your right on about transitioning and testing, and not worrying too much about staying 100% all the time, especially at the start, as long as one is moving in the right direction.

I have gone to a largely raw diet and over the past few days I find that my bowel movements have been getting a lot more regular and easy. That was one of the first problems to develop after trying to adapt back to a regular cooked diet. The other thing is that I find that I am able to smell a lot more. I am usually all clogged up and never smell much, unless is a very, very powerful smell. When I was picked up by the partner I smelled him the moment I got in the car. I commented on that, and he immediately thought that meant something bad. Its on a very rare occation that he actually smells, and usually he never smells bad. But I could definately smell him, it was rather comforting actually, made me feel at home.

I'm working on it. I think psychologically the only problem I have is how to deal with social situations that might come up from people who don't understand. I think I am going to practice saying "I really don't want to talk about it". Unless of course I sense that they honestly want to know, and its in private without distractions, but my experience so far has been not to get information but to criticize or to find fault and modify whatever I might be trying to do.

My partner is really the only really difficult person to deal with in this reguard. He thinks I am going to extremes. But I will point out that I can actually smell things now. Hes often criticizes my inability to smell. Hes really picky for clean and odor free. It seems like a natural that an uncooked diet would work for both of us, as he doesn't allow cooking in the house, except for oatmeal, or potatoes, rice pasta etc...things that don't require the use of the oven. Thats great for me, I hate cleaning ovens or scrubbing pots. The problem comes from going to eat out, which we do often. He wants his cooked food, usually some 'roast beast' and wine and cheese etc. I have a taste for them, but I think I am loosing it. The last time I had wine and meat I felt really, really awful, that is what brought me back to the board.

My goodness I think I started WW3!Sunshine79, I too have a tendancy to want 'proof'. I also have a strong tendancy to want or need some authority to provide proof, guidance, wisdom etc. I am realizing that there are definate limitations to scientific inquiry, there are so many biases, and interests to force a particular outcome.

The greatest breakthrough for me was the realization that natural living cannot be tested by using a double blind test. That is you can't have one group living a totally natural life, and one getting a placebo for natural living, and not have another group not knowing if their natural or not. BUT you CAN experience natural living on your own, but only you know if it works or not. Its kind of strange. Someone can relate their experience, but if someone doesn't want to believe, trust or try then they won't.

I don't know about the vitamin C, and scurvy, or any other nutritional deficiency. For the most part nutritional deficiencies come about from eating processed foods. There are people who claim our soils are depleted and everyone is missing one or more trace elements, or that several minerals are low. Also that nutritional values in general are low. I don't know enough about NH to know what the response is. Its an interesting question, as scury is officially a disease.

Although deficiencies are possible, someone brought up the point that excesses are more likely. I think this is correct, that excess is the major problem. Its likely that there are deficiencies at the same time, i don't want to discount that. But I realize today that marketing of products generally has more to gain from telling you you need something more. Its a rare thing to hear someone in marketing telling you that you need less of something.