so yesterday my esl student and i were reading a book review of "fast food nation", which led to a great discussion about health and the meat industry. she mentioned that she had a friend who was vegetarian, but took some protein capsules because of the no meat thing. i said that if she ate right, she shouldn't need them....and that led to the "but animal meat has certain proteins that we need and can't get anywhere else" discussion. blah.

i know i've read about this, but i can't seem to find the scientific proof i need to show her. can anyone post any info or give me some links to follow?

for the record, i ended the conversation by telling her that if my choices were either miss out on a little protein or eat a cow that in turn had eaten feces and dead dogs and cats.....well, i think the choice is pretty obvious. (she laughed.)

thanks!

No, that protein idea is not true.

[www.dietitians.ca]

Most people know nothing about vegetarianism.

Hi Michelle,

It's not really a debate anymore, having been long settled. It's more of a disinformation plague of ignorance PR campaign advanced by the livestock industry complete with bogus public interest organizations with names like The Center for Consumer Freedom.

Any basic biochemistry textbook will tell your student that there are 20 standard amino acids that are the basic constituents of protein molecules and that plants and most micro organisms can synthesize these, while animals need to get them from other sources, plant or animal. So if we can get them from plants why eat animal products?

There are so many other strong convincing arguments against the consumption of animal products based on nutritional health, ecological and spiritual reasons. Here's a decent link: 49 Reasons.

The important thing here is where you stand based on your experience of not eating animal products. I ate animals for the first 45 years of my life and experienced first hand the violence in the taking of life and all the other grisly steps to an animal based meal. Towards the last ten years of that period I began to awaken to the harm I was doing to myself and other beings and began to move away from animal food step by step starting with commercially grown beef. It ended with fish (which were the by-product of my flyfishing hobby) when I could no longer avoid feeling the negative effects on my health, my integrity as far as the planet is concerned and my awakening spiritual life.

My experience tells me that when a person adopts a vegan lifestyle their non-vegan friends and family feel judged for their non-vegan choices and this often comes out as attacks and defensiveness. For that reason I try to not push my lifestyle choices on others who aren't asking for my input. My experience tells me that the most loving way to change an unwanted behavior is to feel the pain of it, for pain is the greatest teacher and arguments and debates only create more separation between people.

Is your student asking you for your input? Do you feel the need to be right on this issue with her? I'm remembering the old saying: "Never argue with a fool, people might not see the difference."

Michelle,

One other thing. According to Dr. Doug Graham all the major scientific studies on human nutrition put the daily caloric need of protein at around 10%, hence his diet and book based on a caloric ratio of 80% carbohydrates, 10% fats and 10% protein: 80-10-10. For me, this further diffuses the "protein debate". It's just too easy to get that 10% protein need from plants, especially if your diet includes a lot of seasonal variety of fresh, whole foods, preferably raw since heat alters the proteins.

"My experience tells me that when a person adopts a vegan lifestyle their non-vegan friends and family feel judged for their non-vegan choices and this often comes out as attacks and defensiveness."

uti is smart.

[www.moondragon.org]

Look at this. Ive never came across a whole food that was completely void of an amino acid. I think all whole foods conatian all the amino acids just different profiles.

I'm really glad this topic has appeared again.

I have problems meeting my protein needs as a result of sustaining liver and gallbladder damage as a result of severe, life threatening bouts of hepatitis and also, later, high dose, longterm chemotherapy.

When I ate animal products, I had trouble meeting my protein needs because I have trouble with protein absorption. However, now that I am eating mostly raw vegan food, people are quick to tell me that the problem I have had with protein absorption is due to my diet. I'm eating completely differently than I was when this problem first appeared.

I usually have my yearly blood tests in November but I have put it off this year... will probably try to get it in by the end of the year. Every year, same thing... low protein. (I also have a lot of the telltale signs of protein deficiency.) I'm hoping that dietary changes will result in a change in this condition.

On the bright side, I was diagnosed with IBS before changing my diet. I have no symptoms of that now. The IBS was given to me free with the chemotherapy. (Free case of IBS with the first dose!) IBS is generally not as severe as Crohns but I still wouldn't wish it on anybody.

I wanted to ask... The last time the protein discussion came up someone mentioned a possible link with minerals and protein absorption. (Upping minerals via green smoothies maybe?) If anyone has any scientific data or can point me to where I can find some, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks to everyone here. I appreciate all your help and support.

Lee

Protein molecules consist of chains of amino acids. Some of these amino acids (histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonin, tryptophan, and valine) our bodies cannot synthesize and must be consumed.

If you look up the nutritional content of individual foods, like dark leafy green vegetables, one plant may be high in some of the essential amino acids, and low in others. So the solution to receiving enough protein in your diet is to eat a wide variety of fruits and vegetables, particularly greens (collards, chard, kale, spinach, bok choy, dandelion greens, and more).

How do you know when enough protein is enough? It's a matter of dispute, but the generally accepted rule of thumb is about 0.8 grams of protein for every pound of body weight. Some nutritionists, however, think you may need more or less than this rule of thumb. So, do what feels right for you, but be sure to eat a variety.

"How do you know when enough protein is enough? It's a matter of dispute, but the generally accepted rule of thumb is about 0.8 grams of protein for every pound of body weight. Some nutritionists, however, think you may need more or less than this rule of thumb. So, do what feels right for you, but be sure to eat a variety."

I whole hartedly belive this is too much. I tried to eat like that when I was into bodybuilding. I had trouble eating that much when I wasn't vegan. Eating all those thick foods made me feel very tired.

shane Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How do you know when enough protein is enough?
> It's a matter of dispute, but the generally
> accepted rule of thumb is about 0.8 grams of
> protein for every pound of body weight. Some
> nutritionists, however, think you may need more or
> less than this rule of thumb. So, do what feels
> right for you, but be sure to eat a variety.

Hi shane,

Years ago when I first learned about bodybuilding, I saw everyone on the bodybuilding forum recommands people to eat 1g protein per pound of lean bodyweight, or 1.5g, or even 2g (Well they rarely go beyond that point, 2g is the upper limit of their recommandation). And I still remember clearly that they all recommand the same protein supplement which is Optimum Nutrition 100% Whey Double Chocolate!

After that when I was introduced to raw foodism, which told me about exactly the opposite of what I've learned, I really had a hard time making a U-trun in my brain. Later I went back to the same old forum and post about my new discovery, I got bashed without surprise except that one member told me that my idea sounds interesting and I believe that some of my old friends on that board saw my post but didn't say anything about it. Nonetheless, they didn't ban me straight for posting something so contradictable to their belief. Instead, the board somehow "crushed" and they set up a new board all over again and my username and posts just disappeared.

All the Best,
Wong

You made your first mistake, by trying to convince someone else of raw food proof. There is no proof of anything. the only truth is that which is inside of you. Truth is to be found inside, not out there, by a scientist or herd..

Little do you know how little anything you say, about facts or numbers, means to anyone else. What you can do is give out ideas, and your life stories, and that is all.


Why change others, there is no glory in that? So what? What does that do for you?>Change yourself, you know what is right to you.

I know what is right to me, and I honestly don't recommend fruitarianism to anyone who asks me about it. I just tell them, " I like it" and so be it.

you guys are so awesome, thanks for all the insight.

coconutcream....very wise words.



i'm not out to convert anyone, and honestly i probably won't mention this to her unless she brings it up again. but for my own knowledge, i wanted the scientific proof. which i guess isn't necessary.

i eat raw. i feel good. end of story.

Ahh....the hunt for that mythical beast....the protein deficient American....LOL.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

even taurine. it's found in eggs, fish, meat, and milk but not vegetable protein but it can be synthesized from cysteine and methionine in the body so long as there is adequate b6 present.
cysteine is manufactered by other amino acids in the liver.
methionine from (veg sources) beans, garlic, lentils, onions.

I'm protein deficient. I'm not a mythical beast. I have the symptoms of it and my blood tests show it.

However, it isn't because I don't eat enough animal products. I can back that up with over ten years of medical records. I have a problem with protein absorption as a result of a medical condition and treatment... <sigh>

There are people who are protein deficient. I just try to make clear that I had this problem before I ate this way. I'm hoping to find a way to increase my body's absorption through diet. I'm not sure if it is possible.

Lee

lee, have you read prescription for nutritional healing? it's my go-to book for any nutritional query. good info about nutrients for specific conditions and food sources of them too. it's a really great book, i think they print a new edition frequently so it's updated with the latest info.

I hear you Lee. I apologize if my answer was glib/flippant. You seem to have a pre-existing medical condition - which inhibits absorption. I hope eating fresh, raw plant foods....and pursuing your greatest dreams.....helps to liberate you from this condition...if that is what you wish. Strength to you - and happy holidays.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2007 05:08PM by davidzanemason.

David,

No offense taken at all!

My frustration is with the condition and the fact that most people (no one here!) will tell me it is because I don't eat animal products. But, I want everyone here to know that when I ate animal products, I had the exact same medical problem, and when I tried tempeh and tofu and seitan, I had the exact same medical problem. Now, on a raw/vegan diet, I have the exact same medical problem... but I do, really, feel better overall than I did when eating animal products or when eating a vegan diet that included cooked foods. Because I feel so much better overall, I'm going to continue with this and see what happens over time. I have a lot of hope because the fatigue that plagued me before has abated significantly. Not entirely, but significantly and that is awesome.

My hope is that continuing with this diet will enable my liver and gallbladder to heal enough so that I can absorb the protein that I need. I think we are all in agreement that eating animal products or cooked food isn't the answer. I'm just trying to explore the raw/vegan possibilities and learn as much as possible.

I am following my dreams and that helps a lot too!!! That is definetly part of the equation.


Lee

wow, lee....i'm sorry to hear about all the problems you've had. it's fantastic that you're feeling so much better though! it sounds like raw is the right path for you....

good luck to you!

michelle

Lee_123 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm protein deficient. I'm not a mythical beast. I
> have the symptoms of it and my blood tests show
> it.
>
> However, it isn't because I don't eat enough
> animal products. I can back that up with over ten
> years of medical records. I have a problem with
> protein absorption as a result of a medical
> condition and treatment...
>
> There are people who are protein deficient. I just
> try to make clear that I had this problem before I
> ate this way. I'm hoping to find a way to increase
> my body's absorption through diet. I'm not sure if
> it is possible.
>
> Lee


I was iron-deficient despite eating plenty of 'high-quality' sources of iron. Many many women with osteoporosis eat plenty of dairy products daily and their condition worsens anyway.

Humans on raw vegan diets are in their own category of requirements and rules. I don't think most research could even be applied to us.

Lee, I really hope your body will respond to raw vegan, as mine did to it. Within weeks of switching to raw vegan, especially high-greens, my iron levels soared and have remained high.

Hi Lee,

I'm sorry to hear about your condition and I sincerely hope that you can find a diet that works for you and cure yourself from it.

Good luck and All the Best to you,
Wong

I'm giving this my best shot because I feel better doing it. I've had enough of trying to cure myself with stuff that tastes bad, makes me feel bad, or hurts. I like the way raw/vegan food tastes and I have more energy. That's huge.

I'm hoping that just being five months into being 90-100% will make a difference. Nothing else has helped. I'm actually supposed to go twice a year but got tired of hearing the same old thing. I'm hoping that this year I will hear something different. I get a whole slew of tests. It's comprehensive. Overwhelming.

Thank you for all of your concern and caring.

I know I'm on the right path. I just don't know where it will lead.

Lee

Hey Lee,

Congratulations, you're on the right path! Eat lots and lots and lots of raw greens! Mix them into smoothies, eat them as salads, and even if they don't taste good now, you'll soon develop a wild, unexpected craving for them. Get a variety. Consuming daily greens really does seem to help many people, and chances are they'll help you, too!

concerning the protien question my daughter pointed out to me that horses and cows live and thrive off of green grass not meat. These are very large and active animals. They do just fine without eating meat, don't you think? I am not saying we are the same as a cow or a horse but when my daughter pointed this out it made a light bulb go off in my head. I just thought to share it with you all. I do agree with what shane said about the green smoothies I felt so good when I was doing the green smoothies all the way through my body. Maybe that is the key for me right now because I am having a difficult time with getting back on track. I also found myself craving the green smoothie after time.

Good point, pam! Apes, which are very strong muscular animals, only eat a few bugs for their 'meat' and otherwise live off of fruits, veggies, bark, shoots, etc.

It's the same thing with dairy, people are always asking where do you get your calcium? Well, cows don't drink milk after being weaned and they get their calcium from the greens they eat. Again, not that we are like a cow. But it makes you think.

karennd
[healingtype1diabetes.typepad.com]

I hope that you find the right raw path for you

I cant stress enough to eat intuitively..which can be really hard at the start-- but usually what you crave is what your needing. If my body says to eat 2kg clementines a day then I do it, until it sends the STOP signal.

I have 100% healed myself from crohns. I am healed, I no longer have it. Thanks to raw. Not myself, but living nutrition.


Anyway keep encouraged, keep searching and you will find your healing.

I'm going to try green smoothies. The blender I have now is old and not very high powered but in a few weeks, I will spring for a new one. (Any recommendations for where to buy, please send me a private message if you don't want to post on the forum.)

Lately, I have been craving greens and can't seem to get enough of them. Green smoothies might be the way to go.

I'd also like to learn how to grow my own... WHEATGRASS. I'm not much into superfoods due to the super cost but I have learned to sprout, so anything is possible! I used to kill every plant given to me so this is a big deal that I can grow anything! I'm thinking of making that my project for the new year.

I'm signed up for my blood tests at the end of next week. If they don't show an improvement, I'm going to keep eating raw/vegan because I just plain feel better. No great all the time, but so much better than I used to feel.

Michelle -- I love Fast Food Nation. Some schools use it in AP English Language classes. Yea!

Here are some links related to Fast Food Nation itself:

[www.mcspotlight.org]

[www.mcspotlight.org]

[archive.salon.com]

[www.participate.net]

[www.roch.edu]


Thanks to everyone for the suggestions, support, and good vibes. I really appreciate it.

Lee

Lee,

Have you experimented with Spirulina, Chlorella, Blue Green Algae? those are very high protein, I believe. (I take compressed powder tablets, I cant stomach the taste of them in smoothies yet, working on developing a taste). kelp, dulse etc might be helpful as well.


Insipring to read how you are dealing with stuff. Wishing you the best and continued healing.

cocoa

lee....oh my gosh, are they really having kids read that book?? thank goodness!! when i was in texas i brought it to school and showed a few of my students. i completely think it should be required reading. it is kind of ironic though, considering more and more high schools have mcdonald's, taco bell, and subway in their cafeteria's.

awesome links too, thanks!!

good luck with the greens....green smoothies are the BEST!!!

michelle