I posted this question about a week ago, but maybe you missed it. I will ask it again.

What is the evidence and / or rationale to state that soy is toxic?

and

Does this apply to refined soy products, or does it also apply to non GMO, whole soybeans?

Information is appreciated.

If you search for soy toxicity in Google or pub med, you will find a lot of documents.

First of all, soy beans cannot be eaten raw, straight out of the body. There are toxins in there that are neutralized by cooking. While the cooking may reduce the potency of the toxin, it doesn't get everything. Myself, I always have a detox reaction if I eat some nama shoyu or some tamari in a raw gourmet dish. This can be a headache, a runny nose, or some body odor.

There are plant estrogens in the soy with can confuse the body. In general, taking an external hormone like substance is going to wreak havoc with the internal hormonal balance in the body.

If you search at mercola.com you'll also find much information on soy.

Wishing you vibrant health

I love Miso and tempeh. I don't like the other soy foods like tofu or soy milk.

There is an article on NotMilk .com that says soymilk is okay, people that have problems with soymilk are allergic to the Carageenen that is added to it

Bryan10,

Are you a newly transitioning raw foodist? I thought tempeh and miso are both cooked.

"There are plant estrogens in the soy with can confuse the body. In general, taking an external hormone like substance is going to wreak havoc with the internal hormonal balance in the body."

For women, I wonder if this would be so bad during the pre or menopausal years.

xoxo,
Lita

[paintedrenderings.blogspot.com]

Hi Mameyluver:

I suspect soy isn't good for anybody. I used to eat a lot of soy during my vegetarian years, and was then diagnosed with breast cancer. I am sure I will never know for sure if soy played a part in that, but I did find it interesting that when I completed my treatments, the Cancer Agency gave me a list of foods to avoid - SOY was at the top of the list!!

If you google Dr. John Lee, or seek out his books, he strongly implicates estrogen overload as one of the biggest problems. If you consider how many things around us have a bad impact on our estrogen levels it really makes a lot of sense, so why add any estrogens of any kind if we don't absolutely need to.

First thing that happens when you get diagnosed for breast cancer is that they test to see if estrogen plays a role (estrogen-postitive receptors) - it almost always does.

Just something to think about....

Sapphire

> thought tempeh and miso are both cooked.

There is raw miso at healthfoodstores.

Tempeh is not raw, as far as I know



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2008 08:52PM by cocoa_nibs.

cocoa_nibs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is raw miso at healthfoodstores.

All miso is made from cooked soybeans. "Raw" miso usually means that the miso is unpasteurized, however the soybeans were still cooked.

thanks for the info. makes sense.

Thanks for the info. I rarely eat soy products anyways, was just curious for myself and others.

Miso is a Living Food. It is a cultured food, similar to foods such as yogurt, cheese, sauerkraut, and rejuvelac.

(I eat raw vegan cheese, which is made with cultured almonds and sunflower seeds and flavored with herbs)

I use South River Miso, it is delicious! It is made with things that are cooked first, such as rice, barley, and soy, but then it is transformed into a healthy vegan living food by the beneficial probiotic bacteria.

I eat a 90% raw vegan diet. The other 10% cooked includes things like tempeh, rice, oats, and the occasional lightly steamed root vegetable.


.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2008 02:24AM by Bryan10.

I do not drink soy milk. I make raw milks from nuts and seeds using the Tribest Soybella.

In the past I would use boxed Soy Milk and it would make me sick. I blamed it on the soy. Robert Cohen, the "Not Milk" guy, says that it was the carrageenan that made me sick, not the soy. This is what he wrote,

> STOMACH ACHES CAUSED BY CARRAGEENAN
>
> Some folks can eat just about anything. Some people might
have no problem producing a tall glass of homemade soymilk,
then converting it to chocolate milk by adding the
following ingredients: Three teaspoons of sugar. One
teaspoon of chocolate powder. Two tablespoons of Vaseline
petroleum jelly. The Vaseline might produce gastric
distress, and the soymilk drinkers would erroneously
conclude that they are "allergic" to soy. Some people
do not experience gastric discomfort caused by the
Vaseline-like food additive, carrageenan. Many people do.

Carrageenan is a commonly used food additive that is
extracted from red seaweed by using powerful alkali
solvents. These solvents would remove the tissues
and skin from your hands as readily as would any acid.

Carrageenan is a thickening agent. It's the vegetarian
equivalent of casein, the same protein that is isolated
from milk and used to thicken foods. Casein is also
used to produce paints, and is the glue used to hold
a label to a bottle of beer. Carrageenan is the magic
ingredient used to de-ice frozen airplanes sitting on
tarmacs during winter storms.

IS CARRAGEENAN REALLY NATURAL?

Carrageenan is about as wholesome as monosodium glutamate
(MSG), which is extracted from rice, and can equally be
considered natural. Aspartame (NutraPoison) is also natural,
as it is extracted from decayed plant matter that has been
underground for millions of years (oil). So too are many
other substances such as carrageenan that can also be
classified by FDA and USDA as wholesome and natural
food additives.

Just because something comes from a natural source does
not mean that it is safe. The small black dots in the
eyes of potatoes contain substances that are instantly
fatal if eaten. Got poison? You will if you eat the
black dots on the "eyes" of potatoes.

Carrageenan is a gel. It coats the insides of a stomach,
like gooey honey or massage oil. Digestive problems often
ensue. Quite often, soy eaters or soymilk drinkers react
negatively to carrageenen, and blame their discomforting
stomachaches on the soy.

High weight molecular carrageenans are considered to be safe,
and were given GRAS status (safe for human consumption) by
the FDA. Low weight carrageenans are considered to be
dangerous. Even SILK admits this.

In order to get more information about carrageenan from
a scientist, I spoke with one of America carrageenan
experts, Joanne Tobacman, M.D. Dr. Tobacman teaches
clinical internal medicine at the University of Iowa
College of Medicine. I explained to Dr. Tobacman that
I rejected animal studies (we discussed valid concerns
about animal research, and why they never produce
reliable results for humans). I requested evidence of
human trials that might show carrageenan to be a
danger for human consumption.

Dr. Tobacman shared studies with me that demonstrate that
digestive enzymes and bacterial action convert high weight
carrageenans to dangerous low molecular weight carrageenans
and poligeenans in the human gut. These carrageenans
have been linked to various human cancers and digestive
disorders. Again, I remind you that Tobacman's evidence
and conclusions are based upon human tissue samples,
not animal studies.

Thanks so much for sharing, Sapphire. No soy for me then ...

xoxo,
Lita

[paintedrenderings.blogspot.com]

Actually, flax have higher phytoestogen levels then soy (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16898863?dopt=Abstract). BUT these plant estrogens are weaker then endogenous estrogens, competing at cell receptor sites and creating a net LOWERING affect. See [en.wikipedia.org] and [www.power-surge.com]

There is still of course some debate. The bottom line is, how do you FEEL? I feel great on soy, and it's one of the last cooked foods I'm giving up . . .

-Ryan
radicalvitality.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2008 05:37AM by ryandvan.

cosbynian- there is an enzyme in raw soy that will give you serious belly ache. From what I remember of my home tofu-making days, I think the soy beans have to literally be boiled for about 30-40 minutes to make them safe.

I personally think organic soy used in the tofu products in the health food shops is far healthier & safer than the cheap soy used as 'filler' in other foods (especially meat pies and things), but the more I think how I had to boil soy to death before I can eat it, the more dubious I am becoming of it also.

Someone mentioned the notmilk guy from notmilk.com. I think he provides some great information. But he is very pro-soy and then I was shocked when I saw him at a talk because he was very obese. I wonder if the soy is messing with his thyroid...

Dr. Mercola is very anti-soy. My son has tested allergic to soy twice (the only food that showed up consistently, even though he wasn't eating much of it). I ruined my thyroid at one point because I ate too many hi protein bars with soy in them - my thyroid is recovered now.

Karen DeVeaux
[www.healingtype1diabetes.typepad.com]