i was helped by your post maui_butterfly as I am trying to help my daughter eat more raw. thanks

I totaly agree with Pistachio. IMO.. Raw does not = a lifestyle which provides all the requirements of good health, one could feasibly exist on just carrots and dates and still come under the lable of raw food. There are so many variables involved when you consider

1) The health of the individual when they began raw, what they are lacking and what they need to detox from.
2) The balance of their specific diet long term.
3) The amount of excersise that they do.
4) The health of the food that they can aquire ( many freash foods these days are either full of toxins or depleted of their nutrient minerals )
5) The state of their mental wellbeing, as resentment and anger etc will have a negative impact on physical health.
6) Finaly what the person is exposed to daily.. i.e polution in the water / air as well as their individual needs such as male / female and energy consumption.

I also agree about a spiritual aspect being vital to vibrant health in the form of some kind of practice that premotes a feeling of self fulfillment. I definately feel that just being a raw foodist doesn't garauntee all of these things. IMO it removes the whole world of toxins stemming from human processing and brings immediate relief to those who expose themselves to them on a regular basis, but no more than that.

Hi veganforlife. I've been slipping in and out of raw for a few years now (also an ethical vegan gone raw). My goal is to be 100% raw, but so far, having that kind of goal is proving to be unhealthy for me. I can't afford to buy the range of raw fruit, greens etc that it would take to meet my nutritional needs, so end up overeating fats to fill me up.

There have been countless times where I have turned my nose up at cooked broccoli... but then ate 2 raw food bars (at a total of 600 calories, mostly nut based!) in one sitting, just so I could give myself a pat on the back for staying raw. Very silly of me, I know.

Maybe some of the 100% vegans fall into a similar trap, where the 'raw' label becomes more important than balance?

For me the issue comes down to if a person's diet, raw or otherwise, is supplying everything needed to be healthy. Possible food things (nutrients) to consider in a list for long term health would be:

+) Vitamins
+) Minerals
+) Amino Acids
+) Enzymes
+) Water
+) Fiber

Did I miss anything ?

sunshine79 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I found one answer at least to why some people are
> unhealthy on raw - it'll be a really long post but
> the short answer is magnesium. I learned that
> magnesium is the most important mineral to humans.
> It is found primarily in dark leafy greens, beans,
> nuts, seeds, and whole grains (and chocolate). For
> the past year of my raw food diet I wasn't eating
> a whole lot of those foods, as I suspect many raw
> foodists don't. I ended up developing heart
> problems which went away when I started eating
> those foods again. I also discovered the amazing
> power of magnesium to give me that awesome light,
> clear raw food feeling even when I ate heavier
> foods. Magnesium drives cellular energy.
>
> Mild tiredness or depression is the first sign of
> magnesium deficiency - other symptoms include
> irritability, cramps, anxiety, panic attacks,
> teeth problems, and a whole list of other things.
> Heart problems indicate a serious deficiency.
>
> I also discovered that despite all the writing
> about how hard it is to overdose on magnesium, I
> found it actually quite easy once I started taking
> a magnesium supplement. And an overdose really
> sucks, it's so uncomfortable.
>
> Wheatgrass juice is my best way to get magnesium.


Wow - this is really helpful for me. I am sure that in my history with an ED, I have been starving my body of magnesium (and of course every other nutrient!) However, before leaning toward raw foods as a lifestyle, I certainly wasn't bingeing on greens and beans. Maybe, chocolate...or poor quality nuts, but that is a whole other issue. Anyway, thanks for the insight on the magnesium issue.

Interesting idea about the magnesium, but even with an all fruit day for me I get ample magnesium though.

Grayzie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i was helped by your post maui_butterfly as I am
> trying to help my daughter eat more raw. thanks

oh thanks, grayzie, how old is your daughter? mine is soon to be 5, and from birth has been extremely independent. she enjoys making her own decisions about as much as i can possibly allow her to, and that has always included the food she eats. she has instigated lots of discussions about my raw diet "mommy, why don't you eat cooked things?" "because raw fruits and vegetables are the very healthiest foods that you can eat, and i feel happy when i give my body the very healthiest things" "i like raw food, but i like cooked things too. it's okay if we are different, right?"

allowing her to self define and choose her own path, even at her young age, seems more important to her healthy development at this stage in her life than being "forced" to eat all raw. i'm just going on my motherly instinct here that with THIS kid, top-down decisions on this are not the way to go. i question my approach a lot, and wonder if i am doing the right thing, but i have decided to stick with it, and i see her slowly choosing to incorporate more and more raw foods in her diet. but green smoothies -- no way! she will politely try them, and diplomatically say "i LIKE it mommy, i just don't want to have it right now." if she knew how to roll her eyes behind my back, she'd be doing it. hilarious.

I'm sure my rage for coconuts right now has something to do with a previous magnesium deficiency. XD

In any case, while raw may not be the be-all-end-all, just compare all of the people reversing terminal cancers, neurological disorders, etc. with a raw diet, vs. anyone who would try to do the same thing on fast food and pop!

Ultimately, just work with your body and see how it responds to different things. The occasional baked potato or steamed veggies are very satisfying when I do have them, but rice gives me INSTANT anxiety that flows into the next morning, with a low-grade fever. And my body is more forgiving with that potato than 2,000 calories of macadamia nuts in a sitting, although they are raw.

Everyone has to examine the WHOLE... I suppose that's part of what whole foods are about.

Some people are thriving on the 80-10-10, but I'm thriving with more fat that that--right now. Everything is a work in progress, the body is not a static thing. The bottom line is, everyone who is doing well and getting improvements is increasing the amount of fresh foods in their diet. The improvements I got with the raw skyrocketed when I started to incorporate exercise, so again, it's not holistic to link health to diet alone--although to disregard diet as a part of health is equally foolish, if you are thinking for the long term.

It is very easy to focus on the shortcomings of a minority group if they are a threat to the industry (big pharma, meat, dairy...). Statistics are not in favor of the standard diet, however. 1/150 children now have autism. Cancer instances are skyrocketing. We might not know everything about raw and how to do it best, but it certainly is working WONDERS for plenty of people who would be in otherwise much worse conditions.

A lot of people seem to be getting breakthroughs with high-raw and 100%, so again, just follow your body and what works for you. There's certainly no harm in that much wonderful produce.

Lastly, we all have the power to change, and we are all responsible for our health. On any diet, if we don't feel well--tired, anxious, ill, whatever--it is ultimately OUR responsibility to seek the root of that cause and dispel it. You can correct deficiencies with any diet, but raw seems to be very efficient if done properly. I also much prefer the side effects of joy, peace, and increased energy versus the multiple pages of side effects I got from the pharmacist with treatments in the past.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2008 12:47AM by phantom.

It appears that some raw "foodists" don't eat much of anything at all.....just as there are people with eating disorders who are omnivorous, there are people with eating disorders who are vegan/raw, etc.

[utopiankitchen.wordpress.com]

A friend's father used to say (before he died), "It's just old age. You'll get over it."

We are all mortal, susceptible to decay and death. Sometimes I feel like an old used car without a warranty. Raw fruits and vegetables help keep me running.

^^ Very true.

I had sort of a weird moment this Christmas. I had an unavoidable dinner with my boyfriend's family, and I was sticking to a large variety of fresh fruit. (The holidays are challenging enough!) His brother's girlfriend started on a tangent about this "really weird girl" she knew who (spoken very disdainfully), "ate only fruit, then microwaved it because she wanted something hot."

She launched into a long rant about this girl's fruit-based--but very disordered--eating and exercise habits right in front of me, while I was there, having my fruit.

I didn't contribute anything to the conversation, but, I get my greens, I get sprouts, nuts, lots of fruits, I eat a joyful variety, as my body demands--I know this, and the awesome results are showing more and more every day.

But it was just awkward. Technically, that girl was a fruitarian, but in reality, she had a full-blown eating disorder. Not what >>I<< was doing at all, but I got plenty of "the looks."

maui_butterfly, my daughter is only 2, but she will tell me what she wants (and doesn't want) to eat lol. I'm just amazed though because my husband has been on raw for only this week so far, but because of that there has been no meat and potato on the dinner plate, so she hasn't asked for it! I am amazed because she was always asking for meat and potato and I wondered how I could ever get this kid to be mostly raw and I've done it for the past few days!
My husband is finding it difficult though as he has a very physical job and he feels as though his tummy is full of water all the time. Hopefully I can keep him mostly raw for his sake as well as my daughter's!
I've been raw for 3 months and just starting to get more energy now yay
Oh, just wanted to say that we all still eat biodynamic yoghurt and some code additive free cheese but the rest of our diet is raw

phantom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ^^ Very true.
>
> I had sort of a weird moment this Christmas. I had
> an unavoidable dinner with my boyfriend's family,
> and I was sticking to a large variety of fresh
> fruit. (The holidays are challenging enough!) His
> brother's girlfriend started on a tangent about
> this "really weird girl" she knew who (spoken very
> disdainfully), "ate only fruit, then microwaved it
> because she wanted something hot."
>
> She launched into a long rant about this girl's
> fruit-based--but very disordered--eating and
> exercise habits right in front of me, while I was
> there, having my fruit.
>
> I didn't contribute anything to the conversation,
> but, I get my greens, I get sprouts, nuts, lots of
> fruits, I eat a joyful variety, as my body
> demands--I know this, and the awesome results are
> showing more and more every day.
>
> But it was just awkward. Technically, that girl
> was a fruitarian, but in reality, she had a
> full-blown eating disorder. Not what >>I<< was
> doing at all, but I got plenty of "the looks."


Yeah, there's a huge difference between a "raw foodist" who eats 500 calories a day, not even sustaining their basal caloric needs, and a raw foodist who gets enough energy/food/calories to sustain life.

Coco wrote:

>> but i have to come up with kid friendly dishes and holy moly, the stuff raw people are feeding their kids! it's all raw versions of stuff i would never feed him now! chocolate cake, donuts, cookies, ice cream, etc. sugar sugar and more sugar but that's ok because it's raw. rriiigghhhttt.
*frustruated*.
i need some kid friendly suggestions that aren't dessert. <<

A lot of these foods aren't bad, unless of course it is all your kids are eating. For example raw "ice Cream" is just frozen fruit ran through a juicer and when you go to a party where all the kids are eating dairy ice cream, or whatever crap, and yours are eating frozen fruit it feels really good. I admit my kids eat a lot of things sweetened with dates and I am thrilled about it. Dates are healthy. Kids love sweets. There must be a reason for that. One time my daughter made a chocolate cake sweetened with figs, again I was thrilled. Usually they eat sweets in the form of fresh fruits. The raw donut holes my daughter made for her friend's visit were sweetened with pineapple, dates and coconut. These are foods that have helped us succeed in transition to raw and we are all thriving on it. Of course most days we eat salad, soup, fresh fruit and smoothies.

i think dates are terrific, in fact i'm eating some right now! they are the ultimate candy for me. and we do eat a lot of sweet fruit too.
sure, raw ice cream is just bananas but for me it's more about the mind set, the focus being towards sweets and treats. as though the only way to enjoy raw is to do it with desserts. this may be a good transition, as you say, but i wonder about the long term for my boy. i know that if there is a treat in the house often he will ask incessantly for that treat, morning noon and night. if i were to give him lots of sweet raw treats as a way to have more raw in his diet i think i would succeed in only encouraging his desire for sweet treats instead of more raw healthy foods. that may just be my kid though.
no matter what our diet, i have never had sweets in the house. we don't finish off a meal with dessert ever. it's not a habit that i gravitate towards. and mostly when i am craving something sweet i will just grab a piece of fruit or a plain old date or two alone. i'm not a big one for prepared sweet dishes usually.

i am trying to find something that is sustainable long term for us. i don't actually aim to be 100% raw again (for many reasons), high raw will do. to do that i need to find a way to make it easy for this whole family. it's a toughy.

>
> She launched into a long rant about this girl's
> fruit-based--but very disordered--eating and
> exercise habits right in front of me, while I was
> there, having my fruit.

It's like the "vegetarians" who say they're vegetarian only so they can decline another category of food, but would start eating meat again in recovery, or if it somehow fits in with the eating disorder. Kinda gives vegetarians a bad rap, but the person is not really vegetarian, they have a sickness (not that there aren't ethical vegetarians who might happen to also have an eating disorder). They are very separate but SAD eaters often like to confuse them!

I don't see anything wrong with sweets, isn't it just another flavor? If raw ice cream is just bananas then what is wrong with calling it a treat? If we make an orange smoothie and call it a fuzzy navel does it make it less healthy, of course not. Are you creating unhealthy habits by eating fruit in different ways and giving it fun names, not IMO. I think you are making life more fun. I think I am creating a mind set that eating healthy is fun and feels good. We are not sacrificing fun foods to be raw. Take a celery stick, add almond butter and raisins and call it "ants on a log" and it is still celery, almonds and raisins. I personally like savory better but kids like the taste of sweet. I often have wondered why. It seems to be something most kids have in common. I think it must come natural and be good for them.

Sorry to continue to be off topic.

For me the issue comes down to if a person's diet, raw or otherwise, is supplying everything needed to be healthy. Possible food things (nutrients) to consider in a list for long term health would be:

+) Vitamins
+) Minerals
+) Amino Acids
+) Enzymes
+) Water
+) Fiber
+) Calories

Did I miss anything ?

veganforlife,

Its great that you are questioning whether 100% raw is healthy. For myself, yes. For you, its up to you to find the answer for yourself. The answer for you may well be no.

While there can be great healing on an all raw food diet, it can also exacerbate certain conditions. The examples you raised are evidence of this.

I don't think there is anyone who is saying that raw foods alone are going to bring great health to anyone. Health is more than a clean and nutritious diet. There is the mental/emotional/spiritual health, as well as many other components that comprise a healthful lifestyle.

Each of us needs to find what works for ourselves. No one can tell us this. Trust your experience, yet at the same time recognize that there are people with more experience who may have a bigger picture.

EZ rider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> +) Vitamins
> +) Minerals
> +) Amino Acids

> +) Enzymes

No, you don't need to eat enzymes. These are proteins and your body will make what it needs from your essential amino acid intakes.

> +) Water

> +) Fiber
> +) Calories

You missed essential fatty acids, omega3 and omega6.

We don't really *need* phytochemicals, the ones described as secondary plant metabolites, at least they are not required for growth and health to a point, say young adulthood without major elective incident. But we do so much better with a variety of them.

hey, we're not off topic at all IMO! talking about feeding kids and creating good eating habits for life is just what this thread is about, right? totally.

i hear what you're saying about sweets just being fruit and it's something for me to think about. i think what i'm not into is the adding of agave and other sweeteners, cocoa and carob powders and tons of dried fruit in a lot of those "kid friendly" recipes. little has had cavities and a major drilling episode that included being put to sleep so... dried fruits and too much sweet food in general are things that i try to minimize. we take very good care of our teeth and mouths but soft teeth are an unfortunate family trait so i take extra care with our diets.

ants on a log is a favourite snack of his, he just loves that. but it has very little sweet fruit actually, it's mostly celery and that is a dish i encourage. where did i read not to worry about vitamins, that hardly anyone is deficient in them? it's the minerals that you need to focus on and those are found more in dark leafy greens and the like. luckily he has developed a liking for kale but only cooked. perhaps when his teeth stop falling out and he can chew more easily he might be more amenable to raw leaves but there are several years of baby teeth falling out left so...

i don't know how to do a totally raw diet long-term in a healthful way without some kinds of supplements. efa's for certain, i need iron as i am always low, and i wonder about certain aminos like taurine that are only available in flesh foods. it's an experiement for sure but one i expect to have better results with than feeding my kids junk and seeing how that turns out! it's a wonder to me that vegetarianism and veganism is so questioned while mcdonalds and cheetos, coke, ice cream, and sugar cereal diets are not! unbelievable.

I love this kind of threads, and I enjoyed your posts Sunshine 79 and Pistachio!

Personally I feel that "raw" is not per definition healthy. It all matters "how" one is applying it, like David said it is the hand which holds the hammer which will determine if it is hit on the nail.

I believe a lot depends on variety, and on sufficient greens. Greens are just so good in supplying all the missing minerals! If you get your greens, then there is no need for cooked foods! I am always amazed when I enter them in my Cronometer how much nutrients they supply, and it dispels all my fears of deficiencies! Also people generally do not do well on fruit/high fat diets. They probably would do better when they would replace fats with cooked whole foods, or better even with fruits if available. Too much dried fruits or dehydrator stuff does not seem to be too healthy either.

My 2 cents....

Greenpower
www.natureshealingsecrets.com

Greenpower

Visit my website and my blog!

[www.natureshealingsecrets.com] (closed on Sundays)

We have no way of prolonging our Life, (Length is up to God*/Destiny)
But We have All the power over QUALITY of our life




I Know some Of You guys will love me for this ;-) ..so Grab Yourself some watermelon, or a couple of mixed bananas..

First I'd like to welcome everyone back at RawfoodSupport after a year of absence.
:-)))

A little more elaboration on Issue of longterm:
We can only shorten our life's by the improper choices WE Make.

Regardless of what We think, being good or not for Us, bottom line will always be: end result > which are always in correlation to "Laws of Nature"

Who walks to walk,
who talks to talk,
and who walks the way they talk.



*"Improper" meaning: We Are human, living on earth, "governed" by laws, and Physical forces AS WELL as spiritual*
So it means: Against forces present around and inside of US.
*These are called: "Laws of NATURE".
*some people substitute laws of nature for a Religion, which in My opinion is By FAR, a mistake.
*Then, even more so, some people substitute RELIGION, and their Needs: spiritual, environmental, family, rest patterns, work, fulfillment, etc., For... FOOD. That is even more common, than other way Around. and as inappropriate/ unsuitable


Would You go to a philosopher for an advice on woodwork, growing plants, fixing a car, how to be a Ninja ? ;-)

Would You use oil instead petrol?

Neither would I. Since lubricant is not suitable at all for regular engine, as energy source
as, much as regular gas is not suitable as gas for an aircraft.


WORLD, or OUR LIFE, is NOT "FOOD."
Life's meaning is : Experiencing, Learning, and Wholeness.

If You choose to experience a PART of life, and call it "LIVING", by all means, You have EVERY Right to do so.(saying, living, "raw food", without paying much or ANY attention to about 30 other ESSENTIALS Human needs..).Just be aware that there are other sides of life that You chose to ignore, and do not impose Your definition of Living on others as GOOD For Them.

That probably is THE GREATEST thing about this Place, and time We live in. Earth.Here.NOW.

At same time it also creates enormous amounts of different opinions on: How should it be done, and Lived through.
That's also where religion "kicks in".
It is My opinion *ONLY*

As long As We try to IMPOSE on others our point of View it is creating conflicts, and often results in -dis ease- Either PHYSICAL or EMOTIONAL.
Imposing ANYTHING onto anyone, or "any ground that is not ready for "it". It's against how NATURE Works.

Make it: planting "our favorite tree" in someone else's country.
Just because We have moved/traveled to another country, does not mean our plants, animals, habits will adopt to a new conditions.

Same with humans, "transplanting" someone else's ideas without understanding "Wholeness" of environment,and character of person, where they have failed, or succeeded is as pointless as recommending to someone to give lots of Water to a plant that easily rottens.


Fortunately differences in humans, in regards to CONDITIONS and Foods needed to Thrive on(Physically), are of Such Little difference from one human being to another, that recommendations are practically IDENTICAL, with VERY Little of fine tuning, that everyone can do themselves. IF Conditions ARE Met, Body is simply guiding us.

ex:When You are THIRSTY, it probably will be impossible to chose what your taste will be for your next meal.
Why?, Because You are THIRSTY,
Same with being tired. After exhausting run, when you cannot breathe, should you be choosing your meal?, can you Really tell what taste you will have, when ALL Senses give You only one feedback: BREATHE !!!..?

After that(catching breath) probably still Your taste buds don't give any ..Hmm "care" for "taste",food.
Now ALL That Your Senses desire(as should You be..) concerned about IS: WATER! WATER! WATER!
*personally i love to drink, or eat Fresh, watery sweet, fruit instead of plain water after such activity, but I Won't go any deeper into it now..)

..Do You Think, that Giving FOOD Instead of WATER is Best, that can be done?

Now, Do You think, that Giving a FOOD to someone in need of Spiritual Help is appropriate?

Do You Think that You REALLY Know what spiritual needs do you have? Or, that environment You live in REALLY IS a Healthy ONE?



Food: the Physical part of Our Earth Experience, is ONE OF the sides. ..of the SAME coin, With EMOTIONS, Spirituality,religion,beliefs Or: "psychic" part on the reverse.

Both are EQUALLY Important, and Equally influencing each other, or rather Quality of OUR LIFE

Nutrition, carbohydrates, fats, water..Rest, sleep, ONLY If on the other side are: spirituality, work, workout, breathing, love, creation, nature, air, music.. :-)

Ignoring Our Emotions/fulfillment/spiritual/harmony.. in Life
is like ignoring WATER In DIET!..
Yes Food IS Important, But would You Say: Water is of LESS importance?

Same With: Vitamins ARE Important.. Sure.. But MINERALS? Who Cares??
BEWARE Of Such Claims/Fashions saying: Minerals Are KEY to Ones Health, As is The Other Way Around.
As other guys/gals here already posted restrictive "sweet fruits only diet".. without green leafy veggies... approaches ignoring THE Other side of a coin, simply cannot work LONGTERM.

"THE" Other, because what is ignored IS MORE Important, since ignored, omitted, forgotten things are MORE destructive, "silent" Destroying factor..

Also, If Your Coin have more sides, or You Will find for YOURSELF 6, or 8 sides of life..
Fine By ME.

For NOW Me Personally.. I Prefer to stick to Dual nature of world as i Experience it: Night day, cold hot, sweet sour, moist dry.. etc..

To Simplify: Physical><emotional for the rest of our discussion


I can only say: MILK, Aspartame, Polysaturated Fats, Benzene, parasites.
all of above can easily, silently, and SLOWLY, Just like IGNORANCE deterr quality of our life, and often shorten our life much faster than most doctors and marketing speciallists would want to admit.
.sometimes it takes several years to see how aspartame can destroy health, sometimes many more to see how parasites, or benzene, or milk influences our health...


(There are many great people out their, sharing their "systems"/Compilations, "take" on life. If You for some reason can't, or don't have energy or power to defend for Yourself as of: WHY are You Doing to Yourself/ food/choice wise/ You may as well Try any of those systems fore some time, to see if it works for You/ what elements, and move on to next one. EXperience IT :-)
Just Bear in mind what has been here for hundreds of millions of Years.. and How far away form that "guideline", or NATURE that system had drifted..
Is it based on history from last 100, 1000 Years..?
or 1 000 000 of years of successful survival, and constant evolution

Is Your choice to survive, or to Thrive?
Is it YOUR Choice to Suffer where You are now(choice, food, living environment.. wise), or can you aspire for something better not only for Yourself, but or your family, children, environment..
Do You find Yourself liking Sunshine, and living in arctic circle?
Can You find out where's more of what You are enjoying?
Do You Have POWER TO acquire knowledge?
Can You Read?
.,.Can You talk, taste,think,feel for yourself? CHOOSE For Yourself.Hurt NOone. ;-)

..Just Because Your mother felt good about herself eating different variety of food, that Went hand in hand with Her Environment, lifestyle choices, possibly religion, or rather what the interpretation of this religion was where she grew up, Where Her Mother Grew..etc.?

Even Religion Interpretation differs from country/ region to region.Changes happen in Christianity, an official take on many matters have changed recently in Vatican.
Muslim religion in one region is Against Music, as they consider it a sin, where in other region there are 24/7 open Chapels, where Music is being played NON STOP, as Highest hail to Their Name of The Lord

Choosing Your "compilation" of things that Work BEST For You Is Your DUTY.. or Am I Right.. Do I Have a right to say That Anyone has any duties in their life?, Sure, if You have decided to not do anything in your life and Be Happy, than My "having a Duty in life" advice is a mistake.
But it defines YOUR CONDITIONS that you have chosen to live in.
So, IF You HAVE already made a choice to not do anything in your life, and have successfully lived for several years, that means, that You HAVE Chosen your "compilation" of Conditions and beliefs, that make You Happy, and already your "Duty" Had been long fulfilled.> therefore You Are Happy, And Content with It.(I won't go into .."if so, than why are you Reading this" :-),I believe our experience here is All about learning)

Besides a "Laws of Nature" rule there are several more.
I'll "give out" only one more(to keep this post Hmm.. Shorter :-))

For Your Life,Spiritual,Food,Work.. choices, to not hurt anyone

That One I call Essential HUMAN Law..

some other words : harmony with Nature, peaceful, Good.
Essentially these laws ARE UNIVERSAL.
Yet, if You have been born in place, conditions, country, or religion filled with hostile and/or limiting Set of beliefs as to: Your right to Personal, Dietary, religious, work choices.. At least both,Laws of Nature are already in violation.
Blindly following "not hurt anyone" can easily get you in trouble where everyone is not paying any attention to what You Belief, to be Write and Wrong.

Probably third Law should kick in..
Protect Yourself.
Choose for Yourself.
Acquire knowledge.
And Learn how to use it.

Ok, that was more than one ;-)

And ONE Last thought:
Having OR Experiencing ?

Which ONE is more important/ Valuable ? ;-)

Free, Open source.Healthy
F.E.A.R. is
an acronym that stands for, False Evidence Appearing Real
F.A.I.T.H. - the First Attribute IN Thoughtful
Health

svakanda Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> veganforlife,
>

> On a separate note...Have you ever tried raw meat?
> It's really quite different then you'd ever
> expect. quite exquisite, and probably has had
> more of a positive impact on my life then any
> other foods I eat.

But we don't have the right stomach acid to eat meat, carnivores have stomach acid strong enough to disolve bones AND kill harmful bacteria, we have to cook our meat to kill the bacteria.

I believe a possible reason for something not designed for us to eat, to have a "positive sensations," or a impact(as had been written by svakanda..) on a persons life, like alcohol, meat, or milk of other species.. is clearly social/mental.

One of basic human needs is to:"belong".. to a group, cult, interest.. to be accepted etc..
We by choice first deny everything we connect to our parents/friends/society that eats cooked/flesh food, just to find ourselves with problems with acceptance of ourself from family, friends, society, etc..

"christmas story" that phantom wrote above clearly illustrates such "conflict", and how she dealt with it. Still Yet some people could as well be offended and not eat for the rest of an evening..


If you will do it(raw, hygienic, peaceful lifestyle) out of harmony, compassion, and knowledge, giving yourself a lots of support and time, as most folks here do..
..Then those "sensations of being more calm after giving yourself/, eating of what our body has such a hard time digesting, and removing undigested from our body... do not happen.

it's like knocking yourself out when you want to experience most you can from life.. instead staying up all night making love to Your girlfriend/ boyfriend/ wife /husband.. ..Just an example ;-)


But definitely it works for some people like eating chocolate,drinking alcohol,eating greasy foods... when feeling lonely/being depressed/in a new environment, living under stress* ..helps, while to others it(chocolate and the rest) induce stomach cramps, diseases and pains..



It STILL Stays up to question things, that are known to induce diseases/discomfort to our bodies/ That We may perceive as pleasurable ones..

After all, that kind of conduct is often what drug addicts do. Take drugs, that kills them, because that is what is pleasurable AT THE MOMENT to their senses, without questioning, without CRITICAL THINKING.., and looking from perspective..

Disease is a punishment for not using what god gave us: BRAIN ;-)

Animals have harder time since as we believe they are not as smart as us, and ALSO Suffering consequences of NOT using of what God gave them.. but after all.. Isn't that how it works after all?

Only the smartest survive.., and they have a chance to reproduce, and teach their knowledge, and about Their life choices, that evolved over the years, as world did with them.. to their children.

Free, Open source.Healthy
F.E.A.R. is
an acronym that stands for, False Evidence Appearing Real
F.A.I.T.H. - the First Attribute IN Thoughtful
Health

Bryan wrote:

"Health is more than a clean and nutritious diet. There is the mental/emotional/spiritual health, as well as many other components that comprise a healthful lifestyle."

I just have to back this up. Oh man, did my health take a nosedive when I was in an unhealthy relationship. And, when my job situation was incredibly stressful. And when I wasn't following my spiritual path.

Now, I'm slowly healing. Food is a PART of it. But, without the other pieces in place, mental, emotional, spiritual, I"m not going to achieve optimum health (for me). And what is optimum for me will probably be different for you. We are all starting at different places and moving at a different pace... probably toward different goals.

For me, this is a lifestyle, not a "diet."

All the best,

Lee

"Abandoning false illusions, moving towards the truth, may we keep walking step by step, advancing towards the true goal."

-- S.N. Goenka

[www.vri.dhamma.org]