just wanted to get some input
read star thistle's article posted on the OT forum about drugs in water
even though only in minute amounts... but still...

so. the very MINIMUM requirement for organic foods is that they are not sprayed
and that is kind of paltry

i'm wondering if there are any regulations on the quality of water as well

is the water filtered? the water could also have stuff in it

are there any REGULATIONS for the quality of water?

certainly most people ( unless u live in a fantastically pristine area) would not consider drinking their tap water since it is notorious for haboring all sorts of chemicals in it ( i have read the reports of what is in the water and it is NOT pretty)

so i'm wondering, if the organic farmers are taking all this time to have pure soil and no chemical sprays but then just inundate their crops with " TAP" water
that everyone is avoiding,, then what is the point?

the reason i ask is that my body is pretty sensitive

most times when something is labeled organic, it doesn't have that horrific chemical smell that is exuded from the pesticide plants

but there were some times when i got food that was labeled organic and i could smell AND taste the pesticides that were on it

incidentally those stores were notorious for having very low quality foods to begin with so i don't trust their labeling

at any rate, any input is appreciated

La_veronique

Very sad but true. Not only from the water but from the air. All crops are covered in chemtrails and jet fuel.

That's why I am now starting to grow my own food indoors with distilled water. Soon will be getting out of the city to a remote area.

elnatural

You'll have to ask your local water management district about the regulations for agricultural wells. There probably similar in most ways, but different in minor details, for every county. They probably have to be a certain depth, and pass certain minimal standards not only for quality but also for environmental impact for continuance on the permit. But the quality standards aren't as rigid as the standards for tap water.

There is still pristine water in many aquifers that is thousands of years old. But less and less of it exists with each passing year. Head (pressure) levels are declining rapidly. In my state we've gone from 13 million to 19 million in a short period of time. That's almost a 50% increase in 10 years, which means 50% more water is being withdrawn from the Floridan

Go ahead, have more kids.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2008 10:08PM by arugula.

arugula Wrote:
> Go ahead, have more kids.

i respect you, arugula, but i gotta say, as a mom, i find that off the cuff statement offensive. the freedom to procreate should have stopped with you i suppose?

i agree with the premise behind your statement however. as our awareness grows, so to does the realisation of the impact of every one of our day to day actions. it behooves everyone to be mindful of your personal ecological footprint. this was i thought a very good breakdown of the issue. [makewealthhistory.org]

i have a child. but i also choose to live in a very small (450 sq ft) dwelling, and choose to purchase the vast majority of my food as locally grown produce (i actually care more about locally grown than organic, because i live on maui, and the support of local farmers vs. shipping in food from outside sources is an important socio-political issue here). i take quick showers 4x/week. i don't ever run my air conditioner. my car is extremely good on gas, but it is mostly parked in my driveway... i purposely live within walking distance to my job, the market, and my daughter's school. i love thrift stores, and i NEVER purchase new clothes (that's boring, i like the thrill of the hunt!). and of course, i'm a vegan, so i feel pretty good about my personal ecological footprint, although i am always interested in ways to take it down further. not out of fear of the future, but because its fun for me and makes me happy.

a vegan driving a 4×4 has a lower greenhouse gas output than a meat eater who rides a bicycle. this is according to research at the University of Chicago, where the relative carbon intensity of a standard vegan diet in comparison to a US-style carnivorous diet. it was found that a meat based diet emits the equivalent of 1.5 tons more CO2 than the standard vegan. this is not a reason for us vegans to smugly sit on our heels, but its worth knowing about whenever your friends or aquaintances say things like "go ahead, have more kids".

I think water used to water crops in general will be better quality than what comes out of your tap. Of course 'they' would say the opposite, the water in your tap is treated and has chemicals added to be fit to drink, but the water used on crops does not need that. It will be much more natural water.

But I also think plants are a good water filter, the water you get from fruit and veg will be the purest water you can get.

Rob

--
Rob Hull - Funky Raw
My blog: [www.rawrob.com]

There are several lines in the movie "The Matrix" where Agent Smith is interrogating Morpheus..The line that stands out for me is when he asks Morpheus if he knows what species of life on the planet that humans most resemble..And his answer is that we resemble viruses more than any other species due to the fact that we procreate & multiply our numbers with no restrictions until we out strip our immediate surroundings ability to sustain life..We then move on to another parcel of land and repeat the process over & over again..

I read a lot..Between 200-400 books a year..Both fiction & non-fiction..We live on a planet that has finite resources..Over three decades ago the fiction novelist John D. McDonald had several paragraphs in one of his books that made the point that there were not enough resources in the form of readily accessible raw materials to create all of the luxuries that we take for granted here in the USA in order for every family on the planet to each own an automobile, to possess a washer, a dryer, a refrigerator, a microwave, a window air conditioner, etc., etc. etc..

That book was written long before many of the labor-saving devices that we now take for granted in the year 2008 were invented, or popularized..Personal computers, cell phones, all of the kitchen appliances that we talk about endlessly on raw forums, & literally hundreds of other electrical devices of every possible description now fill the average home..

The population of the planet has increased dramatically since that book was published..In addition, the citizens of the two most populous countries on the planet, China & India, are now demanding, not just desiring, the same amenities that the USA, Japan, & the countries of Western Europe have enjoyed for decades..The rest of the planet will not be too very far behind in their desires & demands..

Japan is the only country that is actively & aggressively pursuing so-called green solutions to every facet of daily life..As an island nation with limited resources they understand the absolute need for such measures for their long-term survival..

It is a sad fact of life that there is not one single square foot of the planet that is not effected by atmospheric pollution..There is very little clean drinking water left on the planet..Probably less than 20% of the earth's above ground water supplies can be considered free of man-made ground-based pollutants..As arugula said, the planets below ground aquifers are being depleted at an astonishingly, absolutely mind-boggling rate..

It is my personal belief that unless nature steps in to deplete our human numbers with a planet-wide pandemic, similar to the 1918 Flu Pandemic, that we are going to outstrip our planet's ability to heal itself sometime during the next 50-100 years..For we have shown that not only are we not willing to give up any of the amenities that we have come to take for granted, we want more & more..The number of humans that are willing to think & act as you are doing maui_butterfly, pale into sheer insignificance compared to the rest of the world's population..

Which is not to say that those of us who do wish to change, should throw up our hands & quit..Every person changing helps..It's just that we should recognize that there is a distinct possibility that it may be "too little, too late"..

So, while I have made a personal commitment to effect as much "green" change in my life as I possibly can; I am not going to worry endlessly if I am the only one in my circle of acquaintances that is doing so..Just like eating raw, if asked I will state my opinion & do my utmost to back up my opinion with facts..

As to la veronique's question, I do not believe that there are any restrictions on the quality of the water being used to grow organic food..If there are restrictions, then my guess is that those restrictions are pretty limited..I might be wrong..A source to start asking for an answer to this question might be the folks at Peaceful Valley Farm & Garden Supply..They sell supplies to organic gardeners & farmers across the USA..They could probably point you in the right direction to seek out an answer if they themselves didn't know..

[www.GrowOrganic.com]

Bruce

If you have a municipal water supply you should be able to get a water test report if you ask for one. There are regulations affecting the level of toxins which are allowable in public water supplies (these vary regionally), but these limits are notorious for allowing unacceptable levels of some toxins. I've read articles about drinking water containing enough arsenic to make people seriously ill without surpassing the legal limit for arsenic in the water. There are no organic standards for water, so it's up to you to make sure your water is clean enough for yourself and your family.

If we start worrying about the purity of everything, we'll either starve to death or go insane. Nothing in this world is "pure" anymore. What's more, if you only consumed, and used, what was pure, you still wouldn't have the guarantee of perfect health. You wouldn't be promised lack of illness. In fact, you'd just have other types of sufferings because your body would be so pure, it would react horribly with the rest of the polluted world around you. You can't escape it. Matt Monarch had to leave New Zealand because the air pollution..

Relax. Do what you can. If you worry about the things you have no control over, your health will be destroyed by stress and worry. Our lives should NOT revolve around what we eat. What we eat should enhance what we DO with our lives. Eat to live, don't live to eat.

Organic is better for the land even if the water is still contaminated. The fewer chemicals poured on the land, the better.

wow, i really appreciate the depth of the people's response here

i hestitated at first to voice my opinion concerning this matter ( to be honest) because I know that it is a struggle for some to stay raw ( let alone worry about the water that goes into growing the raw crops)

however, like i said, i have a very sensitive body and i can pretty accurately gauge if there is something aberrant in the food ( thus water) just by how my body feels and there have been times, even after I have consumed or drank "ORGANIC" this or that, my body tells me that there were things inside the water/food that were discordantly affecting my blood, nervous system and brain
sure, I can't "prove" it.... but I have a very acute sense of smell as well and have been able to prevent potential adverse affects ( to put it mildly) by being able to detect hairline cracks in people's gas pipes due to the smell ( which most people ought to smell but some don't)

i have never been wrong in my assessment of this

no, i don't worry about each little facet of raw (though maybe i ought to but i have much other things to think about)

i am a fairly " c'est la vie" kind of a person

however, if we are shelling out extra dough to get ORGANIC, it would behoove us to know exactly what this is entailing

if the water that is inundating the soils is filled with antibiotics and all other sorts of medications, then... perhaps we ought to advocate for more aggressive measures

it is always the invisible things that get us the most

having said this,

i still have a lot of hope

don't ask me why

its a feeling ( once again)

and i go with it

its the invisible things that we put our trust in

that yield the greatest joy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2008 10:22AM by la_veronique.

The medication thing is actually pretty predictable. Here in the USA, the water-wastewater cycle is not an exact closed loop. After wastewater is collected and treated, it gets put back at some distance away from any well withdrawal sites and it will take a long long time for that treated water to move close to a well. That is not necessarily the case in other countries. But even when injected at a distance, treated wastewater will eventually make its way back in to the water supply.

The concentration of the drugs found in the water is on the order of 10**-9 g/L which is far too small to have any therapeutic effect. For now. Maybe that won't be true in another 10-50 years. I that suspect a lot of awful things will be happening in the next 10-50 years.

I've toured a wastewater treatment plant and the key to treatment is to let bacteria do most of the work, using different species for different specific tasks. Workers finish the job by adding little bit of bleach or ozonation (which is more expensive). But they are not removing trace elements of drugs or other contaminants, for that matter. I don't think this is cause for concern yet. When the concentration of such contaminants is 100x or 1000x greater than current, then we will be in deep doodoo.

At any rate I think this is the primary reason why we shouldn't be consuming drugs. Because flushing the toilet doesn't make it go away. There is no "away."

Right. My observation is that the food we eat is like anything else. I'm sure the organic standards probably must comply with whatever the local standards are for digging an irrigation well (although I have not researched this extensively). As pointed out, irrigation wells are not nearly as deep as a 'drinking water well' (usually).

-In any event, you really DON'T know too much of anything unless you have toured the farm where you buy your produce....or you grow your own. Beyond that, you eat the highest you can find...taste...whatever.

-I think the conversation and questions are very good.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

hmmm... good points ( once again)

i plan to tour a wastewater treatment place very soon arugula

it is true what u said about the bacteria doing most of the work

u know though... when i think about all the bleach they put in it... geez.. makes me never want to even wash my hands in tap water cuz i can smell the bleach (especially when the water is hot)

david mason

yeah, never know really til u tour the farm

but also still hard to tell unless the farmer is knowledgeable about how the water is treated .... etc.

but like arugula pointed out, its in minute amounts

yeah, sometimes though it feels like everything is closing in

then at other times, i realize how unbelievably forgiving and strong our immune system is ( considering the onslaught of pollutants that find their way into our blood via water , soil, air etc.)

our bodies ( at least my body) seems to be on MY side

and i intend to continue giving it the HIGHEST respect


i enjoy the high caliber input

luv u all

i don't feel so alone in my concerns , struggles, and fights


its a good feeling

Hasn't the water run off from cattle ranch been implicated in some Ecoli breakouts ?

It would be ironic to locate an organic farm down stream from a cattle ranch.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2008 07:39AM by EZ rider.

I hear you LaV. I KNOW that drinking-quality water from a well (like at my house) HAD to be tested by the local health department for bacterial count and content. A person can certainly ask to see that report. Or YOU could pay to have the irrigation / drinking water tested by the local health department at no expense to the farm....if you buy your produce from there.....and are REALLY concerned. Of course, the easiest step is to grow a good portion of your own greens (at least) and KNOW what went into them! LOL. Power to you girl.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

DMZ

even if i grew my own greens
i'm staring at the hose wondering what is in the water

i could get it tested but that is just step 1

step 2 is getting it filtered

it is my opinion that an ORGANIC farm ought to have their water tested and filtered as well otherwise that name is a misnomer

Sure. Or buying filtered water....or using rain-water catchment as your irrigation. It's what the plants would be getting anyway! LOL. You know? That seems to me to be the most efficient way....in the long run...for small gardens and groves. What do you think?

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

Baltochef wrote:

"It is my personal belief that unless nature steps in to deplete our human numbers with a planet-wide pandemic, similar to the 1918 Flu Pandemic, that we are going to outstrip our planet's ability to heal itself sometime during the next 50-100 years.."

The planet will remain able to heal itself. The pandemic that you speak about to deplete our human numbers is here ... you wrote about it already. It is us.

"There are several lines in the movie "The Matrix" where Agent Smith is interrogating Morpheus..The line that stands out for me is when he asks Morpheus if he knows what species of life on the planet that humans most resemble..And his answer is that we resemble viruses more than any other species due to the fact that we procreate & multiply our numbers with no restrictions until we out strip our immediate surroundings ability to sustain life..We then move on to another parcel of land and repeat the process over & over again.."

We will make the planet uninhabitable or at least very difficult to inhabit. We will die down and then the planet will begin to heal. Whatever remains will adapt to start the whole process over again. It's all very much like a virus. It is basically how MRSA became MRSA.

That's not to say that we should not live by exapmle and we should not try and educate.

davidzanemason Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sure. Or buying filtered water....or using
> rain-water catchment as your irrigation. It's what
> the plants would be getting anyway! LOL. You know?
> That seems to me to be the most efficient
> way....in the long run...for small gardens and
> groves. What do you think?
>
> -David Z. Mason


DZM

If I was ever fortunate enough to become involved with a large organic garden, or small mini-farm, my FIRST priority as far as infrastructure would be the construction of a rainwater / snow melt catchment system for both all of the buildings on the property; as well as all natural land contours that could allow for runoff to flow through a natural filtration system of some kind into a series of covered cisterns..

Building & implementing such a system would take priority over all other infrastructure construction..I'd live in a tent, teepee, or cheap trailer in order to finance such a system..

The second priority, which really goes hand-in-hand with the catchment system, would be to construct & put into operation a pumping system to using DC electric pumps..These would be powered by solar, wind, thermal, hydroelectric, or any combination of the above..This would allow for irrigation, & hopefully all of the needs of the humans on the property..

I returned a book to the library last week that was co-written by HRH, The Prince of Wales, titled "The Elements of Organic Gardening"..Regardless of what you might think about the man personally, his relationship with Princess Diana, the scandal, & the monarchy in general; I would urge anyone interested in sustainable organic gardening & mini-farming to obtain a copy of this book & read it thoroughly..There is a LOT of good information in this book!!..He espouses & has implemented many of the practices that John Jeavons has been researching & practicing at the Bountiful Gardens mini-farm in Willits, California..

With aquifers worldwide being depleted at a far faster rate than nature can replenish them, the time will come in the very near future when we will begin to run out of water..In many localities wells, streams, rivers, & lakes are already drying up so that water is not available for part, or most of the year..

Bruce

gorillawar

What's that saying??

"I have met the enemy, & he is us!!"

Bruce

Balto: I'll definitely check out the book. I think you are certainly correct.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

Simple Living,

>>Matt Monarch had to leave New Zealand because the air pollution.<<

He did not have to leave New Zealand, just a busy city he was a guest speaker in. He and Angela Stokes are happily staying in a place on the beach far from the city now and he says the air is so clean there that he experienced detox symptoms shortly after arriving. This I got from his blog.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2008 04:20PM by Dulset.

DZM

I would like to PM you regarding your farm, but your mailbox is full..

Thanks, Bruce

Just send me an e-mail at davidzanemason@hotmail.com. No problem.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

baltochef

i must check out that book "elements of organic gardening"

thanks for the tip



humans as blind viruses who forsake the malthusian logic

hmmmmm...

" the enemy is us"

another hmmmmm....


well yes... obviously... if u see this one aspect... it is resoundingly true

but another aspect exists

as well

always the opposite aspect exists

if we can destroy

we can also build up

the soil is a good place to start

and the water is an excellent partner to the health of the soil

let's keep this thread going

ideas that blaze through like wildfire

it is inevitable that they will coalesce if married to the heart

look at david mason's garden

i remember when he was just TALKING about his dream on this board

before the first fruit ever grew on any of his vines

and now, its in full fruition

always makes me happy when i think of DMZ's organic garden



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/2008 07:49AM by la_veronique.

la veronique

You are correct in that we humans have the capacity to heal the damage that we have done to the planet..

What I find unfortunate about us as a species is that we always seem willing to embrace the newest technologies without considering the possible drawbacks of that technology..These technologies are always touted as improving our lives by virtue of making them easier..

And herein lies our greatest weakness as a species..Given the choice between two different methodologies to accomplish the same task, with the first choice being quicker & easier than the second choice; 95-99 out of 100 humans will invariably make the quickest & easiest choice..Regardless of the ecological, physical, emotional, or monetary costs..In fact, the more expensive a new technology is, the more we seem to covet & embrace it..

Observation of our history on the planet since the inception of the Industrial Revolution has shown us that regardless of how innocuous & harmless a technology might seem to be at first, there always seems to be a downside that was overlooked or ignored in favor of adopting the newer & easier way of doing things..

It is our overwhelming propensity to ignore the drawbacks of new methodologies in the hopes that we will be able to come up with a solution for those drawbacks in the future that has led us to the present circumstances that we find ourselves in..

This same willingness to hope is the only thing in our favor that we have going for us..It is what allows me to get up every morning hoping that another person will have joined the quest to make the planet a better place for future generations than it currently is..That that person will have come to realize that the more difficult way of performing a task will be ecologically, spiritually, monetarily better for themselves, their children, their community, & the planet as a whole..

I allowed myself to be convinced to disassemble our organic garden in my mothers back yard 13 years ago, & turn it back into a lawn..Until discovering this forum & immersing myself in it I did not realize just how much I missed & needed to have my hands in the soil..It is my fervent hope that I will be able to turn my life around & somehow become involved in organic gardening or mini-farming within the next year..I need to do this for spiritual reasons as much as for the quality of the food that I might grow..

My experience has shown me that it is the true organic farmers that hold the future of farming in their hands..The agribusinesses that only follow the bare minimum of the organic regulations in order to be able to sell produce at a higher price than conventional produce are more of a detriment than a help, IMO..While every square foot of soil that is taken off of petrochemical farming & returned to an organic state helps in the healing of the planet, I just do not trust these folks..

These businesses do not truly have their hearts into the organic movement..It's just a way to make a greater profit for the time being..Given a choice, these large corporations will go right back to the petrochemical ways of farming if it means greater profits than farming organically..Their ONLY goal is to show a more profitable end-of-the-year statement to the shareholders of the corporation..By law that is what they MUST do..If abandoning organic farming for a return to petrochemical farming, or adopting a newer, even more harmful means of farming that has yet to be discovered meant greater profits, then that is what these corporations will do..

Anyway, I'd just like to say that while I do not always agree with your point of view, I very much enjoy reading what you have to say..You always seem to have something interesting to say..

Be well!!..

Bruce

Yeah, some companies are really doing all they can to dilute the meaning of "organic". The real organic farmers are my heros.

Has anyone here seen the short movie "Six Degrees Could Change the Earth"? I recently saw it on the History channel and it scared the crap out of me! Basically, it predicts what will happen to our planet as global warming continues to run its course. If we raise the global average climate by much more than 3 degrees, we will barely be able to survive as a species (or won't be able to survive). I wish I knew more about the science behind the movie...At the very least, it inspired me to go buy a reusable water bottle, a resuable grocery bag, and I got a larger bin for my recyclables!