blue_butterfly Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Humans were created, in my eyes, to learn how to
> co-exist with all other species on the planet.
> There is so much anger surrounding the way humans
> have been treating other animals that it's easy to
> believe we're a curse or a virus, but I feel it's
> simply due to forgetting who we truly are. We
> apart of life here, not separate from it. I feel
> it would be simply a matter of swinging the
> pendulum in the opposite direction if we were to
> cease any relationships we could have with other
> animals. It's easy to believe that we have
> nothing to give to other animals, but that's just
> because we don't realize our inherent value...it's
> been covered up by anger, shame and whatever else.

i think that was beautifully said, and i agree with you.

> I have read and heard of some amazing
> relationships between beekeepers and bees...if you
> ever want to learn about what it means to
> co-create with other living creatures then do some
> research.

because i agree with all you said above, i am open to reading more about this. not because i want to eat honey, i actually don't care about that... just interested in the idea of humans being mutually symbiotic instead of merely parasitic.

> Also, are any of you aware that antifreeze
> contains honey? How many vegans right now are
> driving around with antifreeze in their cars? :-)

i think you meant that in the spirit of sharing some interesting information (i personally did NOT know that antifreeze contained honey! fascinating!) and not trying to bait the vegans... i think we all understand that the positive conscious decisions people are making are not somehow invalidated by the ones that they are not. it doesn't make someone a hypocrite to not eat honey but to drive a car. people can always look at someones life and say "oh sure, you're doing THIS, but if you're so great what about THAT?" there's always a THAT. i prefer to focus on the positive and conscious things people are doing, and leave the THATs to them to figure out.

Lack of love and compassion to animals... I have a hard time to accept this.
Sorry, but we are animals too, and we live surrounded with animals. We can make some choices like not using them in a harmful way, and other humans too.
But we have to keep some basics in mind. To get organic fruits and veggies, we need some inputs from some animals. Conventional farming grow stuff from petroleum derived fertilizers, and kill pests from petroleum derived pesticides. Organic farmers don't. But still, we need to fertilize and control pests. So we need manure for the first, and helpers for the second. On our farm, we have chickens, but we are vegans and don't eat them or the eggs. But they are useful to eat lots of bugs in the soil, and to bring manure in the orchard. They help us controlling pests and fertilizing, and we offer them shelter and food.
We also have a pond for frogs (they eat lots of bugs and don't destroy the veggie garden like the chicken would do if they could get in there...), and bird boxes. And cats against rats, otherwise, the watermelons during the summer are bitten...
We have bees too, to increase pollination. We could do without them, but they dramatically increase the production. In return, we plant some almost year round flowering plants for them.
But important point, all the animals are free. The place is large, and they can go if they want. They stay, because in return for their service, we offer them some living conditions they seem to find appropriate. We try to create both for them and for us a nice living area, because if the animals fells well, so do we.
So keep in mind, vegan or not, animals will always be in the equation for the food you eat. Organic food from healthy soils require animal inputs (manure). And this manure generally comes from large animal farms, especially in the case of big organic business. Only small farms can manage to keep an equilibrium between the animals and the input needs.
I'd like to finish with these two points:
1- almost no food is strictly vegan. There are better choices than others of course, but animals are always in the equation. For example: is it better to use a mechanical tractor or a horse to work the soil?
2- there are different ways of farming, and beekeeping. Instead of focusing on a global idea, I prefer to talk with the people involved, know their techniques and involvement, and judge on a personal level from there.

Raw Fruit Festival
[www.raw-fruit-festival.net]
Health, Fitness and Fasting Retreats in Spain
[www.fit-in-nature.net]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2008 09:39PM by sgc.

There's certainly no debate here - in my opinion. If you CAN avoid animal products and harmful choices.....and do to the best of your ability....then you are on the right track. If you feel you cannot avoid them....and use them....at least you are trying! LOL. Those that certainly COULD make other choices and do not...because they value pleasure / taste more.....they would benefit by taking full responsibility for this. Modern tools and cages may allow us to dominate, enslave and destroy animals for food and products. It is often said that if you had to raise and kill animals with just your hands, there would be a lot more vegans....out of sheer laziness! Ha! ha!

Thought: Remember: The REAL food that keeps us alive is the underlying power/consciousness that gives rise to awareness. It is attention that is the doorway to this. Anything that allows us to take LESS responsibility in our lives, and show a lesser degree of love, attention and awareness....closes that door just a little bit more.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

maui_butterfly: I suggest reading "The Shamanic Way of the Bee"...this is a great introduction into learning more about communing with bees on different levels.

As far as the antifreeze comment goes, it wasn't meant to be antagonistic but, rather, as something interesting to muse over (hence the smiley face). I just think it's rather humorous that so many of us try so hard to be ethical and humane and many of us don't even realize what's lurking inside of our cars...I personally wasn't aware that antifreeze contained honey, so when I was researching honey to find different ways of looking at it I came across that and it made me chuckle. I feel it's important to be relaxed about this kind of stuff...there's no point in breaking our backs trying to be perfect.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2008 04:46PM by blue_butterfly.

Just a little thought--more of us eating more fruits in theory means more dispersal of seeds, which means more flowers for bees. Yes? >8)

Tires can have animal product, contact lens solution, photographs...the list goes on. I believe that you didn't bring up the anti-freeze as vegan-baiting, I have just heard that kind of thing as vegan-baiting a lot, so I've gotten tired of it--but now I see where you were coming from . Basically it goes to what DZM said--we are on the same page and trying to make the best choices. Also, as slaughterhouses go away, so will their by-products--so I focus on the slaughterhouses

Hmmm...the smiley after the word "slaughterhouses" seems inappropriate--I think you all know what I mean.

Peace and love.