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Watch Out for Discounted Reviews
Posted by: syadasti ()
Date: May 10, 2011 10:10PM

I'd like to call out so-called expert reviewers for trying to be pseudo technical with toy gauges and dwelling on subjective differences rather than being objective and focusing on the significant differences important to the end-user. Its a huge pet peeve of mine. Full disclosure is also needed, otherwise it looks like snake oil to a trained eye and turns off potential customers.

John Kohler for example uses a cheap kill-a-watt gauge in his videos - useless, especially electric motors. See here where it is compared with a professional instrument costing 100 times as much:

Quote

Comparing it with a fluke 1735 I found a few differences.
The killawatt is terrible at inductive loads, so don't use it for measuring those.
Inductive loads would be things typically with motors
, compressors.
So not good for measuring a refrigerator or washing machine.
It measures them , but its results are not accurate.
Refrigerator with compressor running 921 watts, fluke 841.8 watts

Its not accurate at measurements of small wattages.
Things like the power usage of a dvd player in standby mode are not accurate.
Killawatt said dvd player was using about 5 watts, fluke 2.64 watts.

The sampling rate is very low compared to meters like the fluke, so it can miss quick spikes or surges in usage . When I used it to measure the power usage of a 51" hdtv at turn on, it constantly gave different readings. Range from 410 watts to 504 watts. Fluke 448 to 453 watts.

Even a novice should realize that gauge resolution is not a reflection of accuracy. You need a better test if your results are close to or the resolution of your measuring equipment. The statement on kWh is useless in his carrot juice off with the Kuvings Silent Juicer. Also getting stuck on small difference of RPM on single unit when he doesn't mention the accuracy of the gauge (or if its calibrated) - he needs explain why these small differences from claimed matter (especially with a useless sample size of one) - are a few RPM going to make any difference in a similar type of juicer - NO. Why use it as a meaningless selling point in reviews/promotional videos - not everyone is as stupid as he thinks.

He also makes pointless analogies about electric motor size and cars. Does he know anything about motor loads and service life? If he thinks large motors are so bad, why does he sell Vitamix and Ktec instead of a more tradition lower powered blenders - you don't want ones of those big SUV blenders...

He also arbitrarily comes with auger "bite size" and makes up a random viewpoint on what is good and bad - he should talk to an engineer, not make up nonsense on the spot. I could guess a large piece of produce to process means a larger load on the motor or larger chunks of stringy fibers in the machine could be more problematic, but I'm not a small appliance engineer and neither is JK.

He selectively do/doesn't note things in his videos like manufacturing tolerance variation which would account for small differences he calls out as significant difference in other videos (and if you want to talk about tolerances - Omega machines juicing plastic when you first run them from the factory anyone?). A sample size of one produces meaningless data - this is why when professional testers or manufacturers are evaluating a product or part they take a simple random sample of parts (he should know this as he mentioned a redesign of an Omega 8XXX series juicing screens in one of his newer videos).

I also would like to know why the site is called discountjuicers if the discount is only $5 or $10 off with a coupon. Charging the minimum advertised price is good for the salesman, but its not a discount for the consumer - be honest and don't support questionable dealer-manufacturer practices like price fixing - how is that helping anyone but the dealer - consumers aren't dumb! There are laws against this for a reason but just like taxes, companies figure out all sorts of schemes to rip us off. I found a dealer once that was advertising below the MAP and told JK for a pricematch - here is last archive snapshot of the site that lists Omega products from June of 2009 (didn't take a screenshot when I was shopping earlier in the year) [replay.web.archive.org] - I checked their website again later and they lost their account with Omega - they didn't sell their products anymore - I guess the message is Omega protects their dealers (or at least their important dealers), not their customers and being true to the laws against price fixing.

He needs to let his customers and potential customers know about any conflicts of interest - does he get one brand directly drop shipped from the manufacturer and others from a distributor so his margins are lower? Full disclosure is needed just like how consumer union/reports buys the products themselves and does not accept advertiser dollars. The fact that a more honest reviewing organization like Consumer Reports are non-profit and JK is a salesman is an important point to consider when watching these "reviews", but almost nobody will realize that to JK's advantage.

He also leaves out differences in reviews which might cast his own Omega product in a poor light. Did he mention that the Silent Juicer has a Tritan BPA free juicing bowl and juice/pulp containers and the Omega 330HD does not - nope - other videos from the tradeshow did - thanks for leaving that out of your "review". Many customers are concerned about BPA so why does he avoid this important piece of information?

Before he released first Kuvings review I tried to email him and his email server was having technical problems - it was the last straw for me and the reason I've posted this rant. His email server hosted by pair.com - the error message (and I've noticed in the full headers of all emails from discountjuicers.com) is omega.pair.com. This is especially troubling for someone who is putting out reviews of competitor's products.

This also causes me to question his editing in his videos - what is happening between those cuts. His videos seem scripted. If you edit, tell us why.

JK isn't the sole salesman playing this sneaky youtube marketing game. Thomas Fox is the blender "expert reviewer" equivalent - I've seen his reviews change over the years as the products he is selling/promoting change. He also calls out his competitors for issues he makes out to be important differences - like ktec with their Wildside container not being true to size and yet never mentions bigger deceptions like his Omni V "3hp" blender only has an 8A motor rather than the 18A required for 3hp of electrical energy at 120V, why is measured fluid container size a huge problem and not motor size? Thomas marketing antics also resulted in him losing my business.

I don't doubt that JK and TF are nice guys and have lots of helpful information in their reviews, but never forget these are sales videos just like as-seen-TV commercials are - a smarter internet age Ron Popeils - they are selling, not just reviewing. Take them with a grain of salt, especially after seeing how biased his juice-off "review" between the 330HD and the Kuvings 750 with baby carrots.

Now some related humor - was played on NPR a few days ago:

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2011 10:11PM by syadasti.

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Re: Watch Out for Discounted Reviews
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: May 10, 2011 11:23PM

You know this is his site, right? It's fine to have an opinion but I don't think it's a great idea to come here to dis him. He provides this site with minimal advertising so that we have a vegan raw forum to come to for advice. Don't bite the hand man...

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Re: Watch Out for Discounted Reviews
Posted by: xray ()
Date: May 10, 2011 11:48PM

JK edited many spots in his video. If you guys watch his other videos, his conclusion is always on Omega's side skillfully. And also you never can leave any messages that contain bad comments of Omega to the thread under the videos.

You guys should know how easy to change the results by editing the video.

Obviously very biased..

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Re: Watch Out for Discounted Reviews
Posted by: Wheatgrass Yogi ()
Date: May 10, 2011 11:54PM

Sy....You're putting too much negative energy into your posts. It's time to examine your own head. John Kohler and Thomas Fox have enough problems without you adding to them. If you don't like what they're doing, pick up the phone, and discuss it with them, not us.
As for me, I see both of them as 'nice guys' trying to make a living.
I find both of them very amusing at times, without trying to be.....WY

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Re: Watch Out for Discounted Reviews
Posted by: xray ()
Date: May 11, 2011 12:33AM

someone was very frustrated with JK's video.. I thought his video is fair enough too but I found sometimes he had an intention to distort the facts. I got disappointed too.

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Re: Watch Out for Discounted Reviews
Posted by: syadasti ()
Date: May 11, 2011 01:34PM

These are the facts, not negative energy. Soft sell marketing is not an honest profession, its actually more sneaky and effective than overt hard sell marketing.

Some other questionable points:

-If you are going to use some junk gauges, why show us the non-load wattage (in which the Omega was higher) and then avoid telling us what the load wattage range or peak was for each machine. Why didn't JK say the Kuvings was more efficient in that instance he did show the non-load - that's a great useless marketing point to go with the many noted in the video.

-Omega is just a Hurom knock-off - who would want to have that Omega knock-off brand when you could have the original from the people who actually make the Omega? This is such an important selling point, I mean small appliance are just like artwork - having the original is important! I better make sure all other appliances in my kitchen are from the company that pioneered them otherwise people will question my taste in appliances.

-If you want honest looking comparable test results, take the produce right out of the fridge before you use each machine and measure each right after juicing - how do we know if one bag was sitting around and drying on the counter and one was in the refrigerator most of the day. Same goes for the pulp and both should be weighed on a kitchen scale, not just a guess which seems bigger.

-If you want to talk claimed RPMs and a significant difference from the company literature, why not talk about Omega? Omega originally claimed their unit was 70RPM - 10RPM lower - now that is a useless marketing claim to position your unit better against the competition - its a point that doesn't matter but if you want to focus on it, call out the intentional marketing lies and who is making them. Hurom and Omega were the ones playing this intentional RPM marketing game but the truth is it doesn't matter for anything but marketing.

Some dealers still have the 70RPM claim up.

Quote

The auger of the Omega Vert VRT330 HD Juicer turns at a low 70 RPMs to ensure the maximum amount of enzymes, vitamins and minerals, are captured during the making of your juice.
...

Dual-Phase Induction Auger RPM: 70 RPM Rotation Speed.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2011 01:39PM by syadasti.

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Re: Watch Out for Discounted Reviews
Posted by: banana who ()
Date: May 11, 2011 04:30PM

I understand you, Coco, but I don't really think raising valid question is "dissing." When I was researching for blenders, I watched his demos and they did raise some questions. I asked him and he never responded. I had bought my Omega from him so I would think he could at least answer my Youtube posts.

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Re: Watch Out for Discounted Reviews
Posted by: john ()
Date: May 13, 2011 06:51PM

syadasti,

I will briefly reply here, and then close this thread.

Of course, anyone at ANYTIME can "argue" with me on my reviews (or any other reviewer). I do the "best" I can with the tools that I have available to me.

If you send me the expensive fluke, I will use it in my videos.

If you have done any research on me, you will find I started this web site to further educate people about raw and living foods. One of my missions in life is to educate people the TRUTHS about foods, health, being sustainable and eating the best foods possible- fresh fruits and fresh vegetables. I publically speak my mind on "raw food crap" being sold, such as agave and cacao.

In my opinion, I tell it like it is, and provide the best information I can provide to HELP people make the best desicion. In the case of Omega vs Kuvings, I personally feel the Omega is the better decision at this point.

Yes, you can critizes me. Yes, you MAY think my videos are "slanted". Granted, I may not know everything about EVERYTHING, but I strive to make some complicated subjects easy to understand in "laymans" terms, at the same time attempting to be as accurate as I can while NOT having an engineering background, because most people dont. Do I get it wrong sometimes, and have some not-totally-correct analgies? Of course. Nobody is "perfect".

While I may have some biases- which is human nature. I have ALSO visited the very factories where these (in particular) juicers are made- the Kuvings and the Omega. I have done more research than ANYONE ELSE in the industry that I know of.

I have seen things the camera didnt see, and have information the common customer does not have. Such as factory cleanliness, efficiency, etc.

In addition, on the "bpa free parts". Do you believe EVERYTHING you read? If you did you may believe raw foods is not a diet for humans, and WE NEED to eat or meat for protein. Meat is 2nd highest in protein to some plant-based foods based on another video I made recently exposing raw protein powders - which im not a fan.

In addition, some manufacturers may make claims "bpa free" without them being true. I do not have 3rd party independant certifcation from kuvings that their products are infact BPA- free. They will not send them to me. Are they trying to hide something? Just like anything can be labeled "raw", and it may not be "raw". you can label something "bpa-free" and there is no "legal defintion".. Im not a lawyer either.. Maybe you "get the bpa free" when you purchase the product..

I am currently in my research stages as to the "bpa free" claims with the kuvings, so I can not discuss much else at this point, but what I will say is that the Kuvings and OMEGA both have ULTEM augers and screens. I know for a fact, and have TUV (german standard) testing that ultem DOES contain BPA. So what if the catch containers DONT have bpa? that side-skirting the point of being BPA free. I recommend people use glass, and personally catch my juice in a glass mason jar.

In the end, I do my best to show the fair story and paint a picture. Sometimes the results of my videos shock me, but I post them anyway. Such as with the kuvings juicer that blew up on me. I did not expect that to happen. I had an idea it was not going to perform as well as the Omega because I had previously used them at the the tradeshow and compared the results at that time. After the kuvings video came out, the kuvings people wanted me to delete the video and take it down. I did not. Although, I did offer to them to send me another machine so I can do a "re-make" in case I did recieve a defective juicer.

In any case, I would ask you to focus your energies on more positive things in life than "bashing" me on my own web site that I run at no-charge for people to learn about raw and living foods.

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