Bryan, last year, in the thread you started when you just got your 80/10/10 book, you mentioned sleep. That you'd slept for several months, 18 hours a day, 16 hours a day. And that during and after this period of rest, your health improved dramatically.

Please say more about this. I plan on doing this in a few months. But I'd like to know a bit more first.

Did you follow anyone's advice? Did you read anything about this beforehand? Why did you do it? Was it your own idea?

If you don't answer these questions specifically, fine. But something would be great.

This post may get moved, fine. I just want to maximize the chances that you'll see it. I sent you a PM a while back but I haven't seen an answer.

Thanks much,
Troy.



This way is not compatible with Zen practice. This way IS Zen practice. - Dr. Doug Graham

Nothing whatsoever should be attached to. - Buddha

I think about when you wrote about sleeping at that time in your life a lot. I feel like I could do that too. That I need to do that. I don't know how I could though. I have to care for three kids and a zillion animals and I feel guilty even for resting during the day, especially when my husband works so hard.

Boy, pakyd, I feel for you. On the surface, I don't have your situation at all. Not in the least. But, a little deeper, and yep, I feel the same. I feel guilty if I don't work hard, and work a lot.

I've recently decided to lighten my load, work-wise, and mentally. Meaning, I'm not going to work so much, AND, I'm going to keep these guilty feelings in check. Today is a holiday here in Korea, so I'm not going in to work but I've been busy here at the temple (where I live) since pretty early this morning. Haven't even sat for meditation yet. I INTEND to take some time off a bit later today. I really enjoy lots of the work I do here, but there are other things I like doing, and other things I feel I really should do.

There's a lady here at this temple who's always always always working. On top of that, she's an elderly lady. Yet I want to work less than this old lady?! How could I be so lazy?! How could I be so insensitive?! Crazy crazy crazy thoughts. She's also angry all the time. Someday, maybe I'll see that her workacholism and her anger probably are more intimately related than I currently realize. And, mine own workaholism and my own anger, similarly, are probably more closely related than I currently realize.

This old lady would be perfect as a nun at a Catholic church. Maybe I shouldn't be so hard on the nuns at Catholic churches. It's just that it seems to me that there is this stereotype of old, wicked nuns at Catholic churches. This old lady here is a wicked witch. I mean WICKED boy. Yeah, I know, this statement is pretty inconsistent with Buddhist teachings. But ...!

I teach English at a private language school here in Korea, and live at this Zen temple. My teaching contract is up at the beginning of October. I have been making some plans to go to Thailand to sleep the months away. I guess I'll head back to the US in spring 2009. Maybe not!! The closer it gets, the more often I wonder if I'll ever go back. Don't know where I could go in the US to sleep sleep sleep. I do have friends in Thailand though who've welcomed me. Or maybe Vietnam. I once met a Korean American lady living in Vietnam who has invited me. She is a member of a Zen meditation center there. I could maybe go there.

So, hopefully Bryan will chime in with something to say about his sleep adventures!



This way is not compatible with Zen practice. This way IS Zen practice. - Dr. Doug Graham

Nothing whatsoever should be attached to. - Buddha

I hear there's a woman in Vietnam who hasn't slept for 38 years. :O

Troy,

This was not following anybody's advice except for me to listen to my body. When I changed my raw diet to low fat and quit eating stimulating raw foods, ie raw foods with tons of spices and condiments, my body went into a state of constant fatigue. I was unable to function, and I didn't want to take stimulants, so I just resigned myself to sleep until the fatigue went away.

In the past, I had worked so hard during the week, working 60 to 80 hours, and taking so much coffee to compensate, that my body had a huge sleep debt, which I felt I repaid during this 4 months break from my life.

So I was just listening to what my body was asking for.

May I just add something here? The last time I was raw (I'm back again) I slept 10 hours regularly, seemingly needed as body was detoxing and healing. It just occurred naturally.

I believe during sleep the body does much of its regulating and cleansing and self-healing. What I always think of is two stories from James Herriot's All Creatures Great and Small. He went to one farm to treat an animal and he noticed another animal in agony in a pen and he asked the farmer about it. The farmer said, nothing to be done, he is dying. Sure enough, very sick and dying. But Herriot had such a good heart that he snuck back to give the animal anasthesia to put him out of his misery. Calculated the dose and then left. On follow up for the animal he treated, his eyes bugged out when he saw the "dead" animal full of life. The farmer said, "Aye, I don't know what happened, it is like a miracle. That guy just went to sleep and slept for 3 staoght days and woke up kicking his heels." Herriot was fascinated at the fact he not only miscalculated dose but that this long deep sleep actually cured this sick and nearly dead animal. Later in Herriot's career he was to put down an animal who was clearly a goner, but he decided to try the "sleep therapy" on it....and it worked again! Deep long sleep and the animal woke up healed.

Interesting, isn't it? I'm all for waking consciousness, but when the body is unwell or tired or detoxing, there's nothing like a lot of sleep.

Thanks Bryan. I appreciate your response. Here, I have so much anxiety that I hardly get much rest, even when I'm asleep.

I look forward to getting to a place where I won't feel the angst. I realize though, that unless I really get over it, I'll carry it with me wherever I go. I've been carrying it around for as long as I can remember. Decades and decades.

So, thanks much, Troy.



This way is not compatible with Zen practice. This way IS Zen practice. - Dr. Doug Graham

Nothing whatsoever should be attached to. - Buddha

Hey Troy,

I have had problems with anxiety in the past... it's weird. I have insomnia sometimes, because I feel revved up, but then I am so exhausted, I could really sleep for ten hours if I didn't have to go to work.

What helps me is regular exercise. When I am not exercising my physical body, I get more anxiety and more insomnia... and more exhaustion. It's tough sometimes because I wear myself out at work and then don't have the energy to exercise and that starts a vicious cycle...

I also do Vipassana mediation and that helps. Are you doing any meditation regularly?

A friend of mine who is a researcher in biological sciences told me that most cellular repair and re-generation takes place during REM sleep.

I hope things get better for you.

Lee

I second a meditation practice. It has helped me to learn to get my mind to listen to what my body needs, which would be sleep in this instance.

HIYA! Yeah, I meditate nearly every morning for 30 minutes and nearly every evening. I live at a Zen Buddhist temple! And I do get quite a lot of physical work during the day here at the temple. In the afternoon I go to teach English at a private English language school. Very stressful for me most of the time.

Things that others say have helped them have done little or nothing for me. Not raw foods, not exercise, not meditation, not yoga, not breathing exercises, not yakity yakity yakity yak, ad nauseum. One thing I have felt I have lacked for years is adequate sleep. So, I want to try this. Yeah, I also understand (Elakti's story was quite a story) that sleep is so important for so many things, at all stages of life. There's a 90 or so year old lady here who sleeps no less than a baby. She sleeps and sleeps and sleeps. I so enjoy watching her.

Not like the other old lady who lives here. But, you know, sometimes kindness does apparently bring immediate results. Just this morning, I gave that old lady that I have so much trouble with some melons. A local melon that is fabulous. She didn't thank me for them but did speak nicely to me immediately afterwards asking me to do something. I didn't understand very well but at least she spoke in a nice tone of voice. Maybe she was just in a good mood and would have spoken nicely to me even if I hadn't given her the melons. Don't know. But, I felt good about giving them. That's good enough.

Thanks everyone for your ideas.

Troy.



This way is not compatible with Zen practice. This way IS Zen practice. - Dr. Doug Graham

Nothing whatsoever should be attached to. - Buddha

Great thread Troy,

My internet has been off for days.

I love that story about James Harriot.

I sleep a lot but i don't think I am getting the quality of sleep I need. I am so worried I am going to sleep through something like something getting the chickens. I am going to try to relax more. My father was very anxious when he slept. He yelled and swung his arms in his sleep and snored a lot. He always dreamt someone was breaking in the house.

I hope you find the sleep you need Troy.

Hi Pakyd,

"I am so worried I am going to sleep through something like something
getting the chickens."

I wonder what you mean by this.

"I am going to try to relax more."
It really isn't about trying though, is it. We say "try" all the time, but what really is that? Either we do, or we don't. I suppose what you mean is that you intend to relax more. Or that you hope to relax more. It really happens or it doesn't in each moment. In each moment, we either really want to or we don't really want to. If we want to enough, we will. Seems simple to understand intellectually. Doing it ... that's an entirely different thing.

I wonder if you inherited something from your father that now you don't sleep so well either. I look back on my childhood and see that I flailed around in my sleep an awful lot. Like your father maybe. I remember waking up many mornings with my head where my feet had been when I went to bed. I still toss and turn a lot, I know, because when I wake up I see my bedding pretty messed up. But I remember nothing that happened during the night.

> I hope you find the sleep you need Troy.
I wish the same for you. Really I do.

Troy.



This way is not compatible with Zen practice. This way IS Zen practice. - Dr. Doug Graham

Nothing whatsoever should be attached to. - Buddha

I got very ill this winter and now that I am taking it easier (ok, so much poorer for it, but hey..can't have everything) and taking some Chinese medicinal herbs for help along with a large amount of raw foods, and green juices I have been sleeping over 12 hours a night most of the time. Sometimes like last night I went to bed at 8 pm and got up at 10:30 am. It's wonderful to allow yourself to do that.

Because of the herbal tea I am up often to urinate but I can get right back to sleep with no problem. Today I was outside in sunshine by 11:30 and worked until nearly sunset in yard and garden. Then I got to watch the sunset. All very lovely and at my own speed today..just very good day for me.

That old mean lady lives in 'hell' for some reason..maybe find out if she lost family or children or something that is very hurtful to her spirit. Perhaps you can become like a 'son' to her in someway..take some burden off her..and then you may find that taking on some of her burden will lighten your load and take some of your anger away too.

Love,
Prism

Hey Troy,

>>>>Hi Pakyd,

"I am so worried I am going to sleep through something like something
getting the chickens."

I wonder what you mean by this. <<<<

I mean I try to stay aware of my surroundings even if I am sleeping because of the fear I have that something bad will happen, like a coon or dog getting my chickens or my kids needing me.

I toss and turn all night too. I wake up every time I move. It usually takes me a while to relax and actually go to sleep when I first lay down. I am often in a partially conscious state. My Husband sleeps about half as long as I do but he falls asleep and starts dreaming in less than a minute. Also, he can sleep anywhere. He slept at a party this weekend.

I am so much better than I used to be. From about age 7 to age 27 I was a terrible insomniac. Often I would go to bed at 9 PM and not get to sleep until 4 AM and then I had to get up at 6:30 and go to school or work. I worried so much about everything that I would keep myself awake thinking about my fears.

I want to try to make it a priority for me to start getting better sleep. I have been taking time outside to meditate during the day and that is helping me to relax more at night. But I am not sure if I am ready to let go of that fear that something bad will happen. There have been so many times that I have jumped up from bed to rescue and animal or to lead a sick kid to the toilet. On the other hand, I can't be responsible for every thing.

I hope your gentle spirit is a positive influence on the lady who needs to enjoy life more.

Pakd

Prism,

Thanks for your suggestion. Really I do appreciate it. I know that her husband died. I don't know how she feels about this though. It may have been a terrible loss to her, sure. I don't intend to ask about it. We have been nicer to each other lately. I know why I have been nicer but don't know why she has. She lives in a kind of hell, that's for sure.

Pakyd,

Please please please do lighten your load. As you say, you can't be responsible for everything. You know what people say about how we create realities? I wonder, I just wonder if this could explain in part, why you've woken up many times to rescue an animal or lead a sick kid the toilet.

You can be glad that you don't sleep as little as you used to though. Boy oh boy that must have been rough. Congrats for rescuing yourself from THAT hell.



This way is not compatible with Zen practice. This way IS Zen practice. - Dr. Doug Graham

Nothing whatsoever should be attached to. - Buddha

Thanks Troy.

My kids are at their grammy's for a few days and prompted by this thread I decided to try to relax more while i have the peace and quiet. I slept so great last night. I went to bed at 11:00 pm and crashed hard untill about 7:30 am. When i woke up (as from a coma) my hands were as heavy as bricks. I got up and did a few things and went back to bed about an hour later and crashed hard for two and a half more hours. I feel really rested. I am not full of energy but I am so refreshed. I have been fighting candida for a long time. I have reached great strides in that, especially lately, but I know I need rest to really help my body heal.

Thanks for starting this thread. The timing was really perfect for me and, as I stated before, I had been thinking about what Bryan wrote for a long time.


PAKD

PAKD, glad this thread has been inspiration to you. Mostly any inspiration at all, for us to do what we should do .... Sometimes it takes being hit by a ton of bricks, doesn't it?

I know that I never feel refreshed and energized when I wake up in the morning.

My kindergarten kids are all over me so I gues what I better do is stop typing!

Love, and REST, Troy.



This way is not compatible with Zen practice. This way IS Zen practice. - Dr. Doug Graham

Nothing whatsoever should be attached to. - Buddha

I have been focusing on sleeping better and have had great results. I have done some things, like kick all little dogs out of my bed, and I have been sleeping all night without waking once. When I wake up in the morning I feel so much better and it lasts all day.

I started having serious insomnia off and on in grad school when I was experiencing major life stressors. Right now I'm withdrawing from Klonopin which I used for sleep for over a year. Does eating raw and detoxing the body generally help people sleep better? For example, maybe my trouble sleeping has had to do with toxins in my body. What is the consensus? Also, can the detox period cause insomnia for some? Please help. Thanks. I plan to go totally raw in two months when off my medications.

annasophia,

Some people report having temporary insomnia due to detox. Some people then need a lot more sleep, and get it easily, and others find they need less sleep, but it's just as restful. It depends on how your body responds to raw. Let us say that, typically, raw does not promote disorders, but helps to correct them.

I am sleeping so sweetly after a lifetime of insomnia and have been since last November.

My results came from focusing on several aspects of my lifestyle including, but not limited to, healthy eating.

This thread really gave me the push I needed and it is wonderful to finally sleep.

I just wanted to say, as a former childhood dysomniac, thank you, TroySantos for posting this thread, and thanks to everyone else for their contributions. I wish each of you deep, restful, Ellysian dreams. Again, thanks : )