Lack of Personal Responsibility

[www.thesun.co.uk]

Ugh. I'm with you on this one, Kid--the nerve!

>.<

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

This is something that annoys me about society as a whole, theres no personal responsibility anymore. Someone smokes all there life gets lung cancer and next there suing tobacco companies because its there fault etc.

Some are just chancers but some really do believe in what there doing, which is crazy. No one forced food, cigarettes, alcohol, drugs etc into your mouth.

I agree entirely.

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

"Personal Responsibility"? Actually helped him reach this size? I have heard of very large people, that after awhile they just can't take care of themselves. They need to be fed, and washed and taken care of for just about everything. So, hes really not in this alone.

Mislu,

I guess what we all feel regarding "personal responsibility" is that it might have occurred to this fellow at 300 lbs or 400 lbs that he was eating himself planetary and he had to reverse course. For some reason, he did not do this. He did not reach this girth because he's been in a coma for five months and all he was fed during that time was smoothies made of ice cream and Hostess snack cakes. Whatever underlying psychological disorder he may have, he did this to himself. I used to be fat, and at no time was I unaware that I was making a choice to not be healthy.

Gotta agree with tam on this one, on all points...

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

On the flip side... an anorexic or bulemic would get help with their eating disorder. They could even be checking into a facility that would give them the 24 hour a day counseling and help that they needed. They would be taught how to deal with the emotions and thoughts that cause them to abuse their bodies with food. Is this man's eating disorder much different? Or his addiction to fats/sugars any different than an addiction to alcohol or drugs? I suspect that he has as much control over his eating disorder as does an anorexic or drug addict or alcoholic. It is an illness. He asked for treatment and didn't get it. I feel sad for him.

I would love to see treatment centers for the severely obese in the same manner that there are treatment centers for other eating disorders, drug addicts, alcoholics. Centers that get to the core of the problem through counseling and treating addiction.

I had a drug problem, I took control...it wasnt easy, it was a nightmare, but I stopped it... there is personal responsibility... but I do agree treatment opportunities for the core symptoms of obesity are rare.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Nobody exists in a vacuum. The idea of personal responsibility sounds suspect, like the doctrine of 'free will'. I am very, very, very skeptical of that idea. There is responsibility, and choices to be made, but not in the sense that people are thinking of it.

What environment did this man grow up in? What about his genetics? What about the judgements people make about him? Also the momententum of all the accumulated choices perviously made?

Sunlight and rain feed the tree that grows, so in a real sense there is sunlight and rain in each sheet of paper. And what of the forester? the pulp producer, the printer, the distributor and the shop owner who sold you every book you have ever read?

a tree isnt a sapient being, capable of making choices for itself... a human is.
People in this society do nothing but blame others for their choices, and its ridiculous, people can effect us, but we have the final say on what we do or don't do, And the final responsibility.

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Well, certain states and cities are starting to regulate some aspects of food preparation and choices. It seems to indicate that government isn't trusting the masses to make the right choice.

These few instances also involve communities. In california there was a ban on foods with excessive fat, and I believe the food also had to have a certain amount of fiber in it per serving. In San Francisco, a particular fast food resturant can no longer sell meals with toys, if it fails to meet certain nutritional guidelines. So apparently we don't always have the final say on what we do or don't do.

So, your using the government taking away peoples freedom to choose what they eat as an example why its ok for this man to sue this organization over his weightgain? thats... well if thats what your saying we are going to have to agree to disagree on this, as we will never see eye to eye on this subject.

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

He is suing because he was not given the treatment that he needed.

In trying to look at this case from a different perspective... it is unlikely that an alcoholic that went to his doctor and asked for a referral to a rehab center would get referred to a dietician to teach him to choose water instead of whiskey. Or a bulemic would be referred to a dietician or be casually told not to binge eat and just don't throw up anymore. They get treatment. The man in the story asked for clinical help with his eating disorder and was referred to a dietician. That is awful.

It is true that people should have personal responsibility. But there are disorders and addictions that are holding some people hostage and they BENEFIT from professional help. Some people just don't have the strength, ability, or skills needed to conquer addictions and disorders on their own.

In this case, the man should have *insisted* that his doctor refer him to clinical help instead of a dietician. But who knows... perhaps fear of confrontation or the inability to communicate his needs clearly is why he didn't push the issue and instead went home and continued the cycle of self destruction and abuse. Who knows, right?

And let me just say... as someone who has conquered a binge eating disorder... there is NO joy in eating so much food that your stomach feels as though it will burst, that you are so stuffed that any movement you make forces food back into the esophagus, that you literally feel horrible pain and lay moaning and crying, yet you reach for another bite the instant the pain subsides. And all the while you can't believe you are doing this to yourself. And sometimes you hope you will die. It is a true disorder and is not fun. My point I suppose is that this man got to that size by chronically overeating - which is a long and sometimes painful journey. I am sure he enjoyed a good bit of it by eating whatever he wanted when the mood struck but there was also a lot of emotional and psychological pain. It is a shame that our society does not recognize severe obesity as a true disorder. (Especially in this case where the man was asking for help!)

I'm sure at one point he had control, but just because he's morbidly obese doesn't mean his psychological relationship to food isn't as demented and severe as an anorexic or bulimic persons. Not everyone is mentally connected enough to just put their food down and walk away, and once you are in the habit of overeating, your body expects it, and it becomes a physical matter as well as mental.

If this were an underweight person I'm sure the tone of the comments would be different.

Rocket ship, I was a binge eater to, I still occasionally fall back into that, I know, it is not fun, it can even become agonizingly painful, But I made the choice to change things, unless he is insane, he has the ability to make that choice too...

Its not other peoples Job to do the work for him, he made the choice to get that big, he then made the choice to look for an option to fix it, and FOUND it... If it was me on the other end of the phone, I would have done everything I could to find him help, But from experience I can say 99% of the time, every suggestion you give to people who ask you for help with such things, they just completely dismiss, I cant even count how many thousands of suggestions ive made to people to help them with weight when I was counseling people, maybe 1 out of a hundred tried any of my suggestions for more than a day.

Then, its not their job to keep him from eating himself to death, whether he requests them to or not, YES it would be the moral thing to do, to try and help him, but since when is it ok to sue somebody for having different morals than us that are within legal boundaries?

So, I state, I think it was morally wrong for them to not do more to try and help him, But I do not believe that they are financially responsible for not wanting to take that burden on themselves, as fa r as I can tell, its not part of their Job... should a DMV employee fix your car for you? or even less, Should they be held responsible if you need car repairs, you ask them for a reference to a good repair shop, and they tell you "go check out kragens" are they responsible if your car problems get worse? no, they are not... it would have been awesomely kind of them to take the time to help you, but they did nothing legally actionable by doing so, its your car, do your own research, find the right place, get it fixed... (which he eventually did himself, although with surgery unfortunately.)

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Cyclopsicle, no, it wouldnt be, not from me, personal responsibility does not change based on size.

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Remember, the obese are just people with a problem.

He sought medical treatment and was refused the referral. He has the right to sue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2011 10:38PM by RocketShip.

Curator... BTW, I didn't post in this thread to have a debate with anybody. I posted my opinions and you feel the need to refute my posts. I don't want to debate with you because there is nothing you can say that will change my view. The severely obese should be allowed the same clinical help that any other eating disorder or addiction is provided.

This isn't a debate forum. It is much nicer when we can post our views and not have them doggedly challenged.

End of discussion.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2011 10:40PM by RocketShip.

Did you even read my post? he has the right to sue, not the right to win, its a pointless lawsuit, you seem to be for financially penalizing people for not sharing the same morals as you, that is fascist.

I stated I would do everything I could to find a person help, and I HAVE in the past, Do you know al lit takes to to find a psychiatrist or any service you want is opening up the yellow pages and dialing the phone? something he was capable of, He had the ability to do that for himself, he chose not to, the people directed him to a dietitian which is what they believed he needed to be helped, if they where wrong, and if he actually went to the dietitian, the dietitian if he felt it was a psychological issue, would have then referred him to some one that could help him with that... the average medic does not have the knowledge needed to help some one like this man, and most likely quite allot of wrong knowledge, you cant blame somebody that doesnt know what their doing, for not knowing what they are doing... when its not their job to know in the first place!

So when asking for what he wanted, and being sent to somebody else, did he not have the ability to pick up a phone book, or use a computer or ask a family friend or local church to help him look for the kind of expert he wanted? he did have that ability... he says nothing about trying to find the info himself, and that sort of stuff is usually EASIER to find with the internet than relying on some random person who has no idea to tell you...

If It had been me, I would have gone out of my way to find the info for him, BUT that does NOT mean that this group is financially responsible because they didn't, when as far as I can gather, its not their job... Morally? sure, but imagine how easy it is to burnout when you are dealing with trying to help dozens of people (on a slow day) and HUNDREDS on a busy day? because I know how hard that is, it is extremely hard to go the extra mile for some one when you are constantly bombarded with people who you are trying your best to help but don't want to do ANYTHING to help themselves... When you have gotten any experience in this, THEN you come back and call me cold. (oh, and it was all volunteer)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

I never said they shouldnt get care, im saying the people did their job, they shouldnt be sued for not going the extra mile, and he should have taken more initiative, pick up the yellow pages, surf the web, make a couple phone calls, I knew a woman paralyzed from the neck down that could still surf the internet and make phone calls.

Edit: Rocket ^ I also think you should re-read from the beginning, because you are the one who tried to refute MY opinions on it to start with, well, really the opinions of Tam and powerlifer which I agreed with, I even agreed with part of yours but stated that there was a level of personal responsibility that this man did not even really attempt to meet, but you have been acting like your opinion is the only valid one the entire time, and I have been saying, No, thats part of it, but so is personal responsibility, and he showed none in this situation, he wanted others to fix things for him, and didn't take any measures till it got so bad he needed a life saving procedure, you should re-read the thread.

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2011 11:07PM by Curator.

Curator Wrote:
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> it is extremely hard to go the extra mile
> for some one when you are constantly bombarded
> with people who you are trying your best to help
> but don't want to do ANYTHING to help
> themselves...

I know what you mean. It happens to me a lot.

ALLOT... Are you capable of change?

Obviously the government shouldn't have to shell out money for this man's problems. That money I'm assuming comes from taxpaying citizens. At the same time, its unfortunate that he did not recieve the help he needed when he asked for it. Since he's in a better condition now, he probably wants money for emotional damages.

Luckily his weight is somewhat back under control. This is a fine example of mental illness, food addiction, medical neglect, and maybe a lack of personal control.

There.

Rocketship, your condescending comment makes my point... thankyou.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Curator,
"he has the right to sue, not the right to win, its a pointless lawsuit"

I was going to say that anyone has the right to sue, but its a matter of convincing the jury. Somethings get thrown out before it even gets to trial,because its just obviously not fitting for the law.

Sorry I wasn't clearer earlier. I was getting at more philosophical basis of how exactly things come into existence. Another point is that no matter what, one can hope that he find the help he needs, and finds a way out of the place he doesn't want to be.

Something tells me that this fellow, should he have been referred to a clinical mental health services, would likely have hesitated to avail himself of their advice. When his doctor glibly told him to ride his bike more back in the 90's, did he?

Mr. Mason's problem, and I am going based on the info he provides, appears to be an inability to take action for himself. Mental health services can help a lot, but ultimately, it's up to you to take the second and third and fourth steps. You can't just ask for help and then sit back and let others do your work for you. There are people all over these boards that have written about this: how they weren't getting anywhere at step 1--talking to doctors--and took matters into their own hands and made phenomenal changes that saved their lives. They took a consistently active approach to their difficulties. And it worked.

I believe the underlying psychological problem of his obesity would have interfered with any other treatment offered to Mr. Mason. It doesn't seem to have been an access problem. It seems to have been a desire or action problem. That it got to this point at all indicates a pattern of behavior that was not subtle. It's great that he recognized the need to help himself years ago, but what did he do for himself?

Btw, if he were suing because the NHS hadn't prevented him from starving himself twiglike, my assessment would remain the same.

Sorry I wasnt clearer either mislu, because I totally agree with what you just said... I guess if we had both been more clear, we may have understood each other better! im glad thats cleared up!

Exactly what Ive been saying Tam...

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?