Writing about whether or not a woman should take her husband's name got me to thinking about whether raw fooders (who seem ahead of the curve) put much stock in that tradition--legal union--as well as women taking their hubby's name and men demanding they do so. I think I have mentioned that I have been in a very longterm relationship (living together for over 25 years, known him for almost 29). We don't have kids and never wanted to get married. Once he suggested it for insurances purposes, as he had a job where he got free medical but he hated that job and only stayed there for a bit over 3 years! And then we'd be stuck with being married, LOL. I think the one exception to getting legally hitched for me is when you want a family. For some reason it rankles me when people have kids and then get "engaged." And you ask them about the wedding and they are expressing doubt about whether or not to take the plunge. Why would you have kids with someone you wouldn't want to be legally tied to? You are legally tied to your kids a lot more than to a spouse...

My sister got married after having a child, her daughter was the flower girl. The other sister got married and then seperated, then back together after a few years then seperated. She has three children, two from one father and one from another father. They are all her children. I don't know what she thinks, but I get the impression that having children for her doesn't imply that they stay together. As far as I know she stays in touch with both fathers, so its not the usual arrangement that most people picture of family life.

Well LOL, in my mind the desire to procreate has very little to do with any adult partnership. And I am detached from the patriarchy to such a degree that when my son was born I gave him a last name that I thought suited him and then legally changed my own to match. And no, no one in my or the father's family has said anything contrary about it. Not that I think anyone would, I am fairly strong minded and most of the people who know me know this.
I am not interested in marriage or even in living with a man. Maybe as neighbours but that is close enough for me. I don't even want a roommate. Living alone is wonderful.

Coco, I hear you. I think you mentioned being the child of hippies and so that progressive environment probably Also I totally understand about living alone. I think some of the stresses of having two parents is when there's a conflict between how the parents want to raise the kids. I guess my point is that when people have kids and don't get married (and are living together, also) so many times they act like they are engaged but they never get married. I wonder why they would even consider it after they have kids. Like, what's the point? But then they express ambivalence about getting married, as if it's the biggest commitment they'll have to make! No, having kids is! You can get divorced; you cannot divorce your kids!

I have friends who didn't even look at getting married until after children. It wasn't a sure thing not because of the commitment involved, it was a question of social norms, of tax purposes, of shared legal responsibility if something ever happened to one parent, etc. Most of my friends who have kids together remain unmarried, even the ones who eventually want to do it. It just isn't really our generation's thing, you know?

For some reason, it bugs me about the name change thing. I worked with younger women who liked taking their husbands' names after marriage and wanted to be called MRS., which to me is an antiquated title (no offense to women who choose it though). As my mom explained to me as a kid when MIZZ came into usage in the mid-'70s: men have Mr. and no one knows whether they are married or not and now women have Ms.

I hate being called mrs miss ms anything. I have a first name, use it! And if you can't pronounce it my last name is easy and is used by some as a first name. Use it! The school board wants my son's teacher to call me by a formal title but I'm not having it, to me that is utterly offensive. I don't know why I hate that so much but I do. Almost as much as the tradition of a woman and children taking the man's name. Offensive. To each their own and all that but it's yucky IMO.

It really bothers me, too, Coco. Not the Ms. thing, but taking the man's name. It just seems so oppressive to me in 2011! The thing is, I know a woman who kept her own name and got married twice. She's got four kids--two with each hubby. The kids have their dads' last names and she's all alone with her maiden name. I think the only way to really do that properly when married is to hyphenate the two names.

For me I intended to be their parent all my life, the one with custody, so we have the same name.

well another take on it ...

i dont want my own last name anymore it means nothing to me other than what i was born with .. i didnt know my real dad and he was a really bad person

i wouldnt want any of my moms married names cept my step father who recently passed away

i really love my husbands family and would be honered to be a namesake of theirs

otherwise i could go lastnameless like cher

just sayin

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Here's my experience...

I married young and took the guy's name because it was the thing to do back then.

That marriage ended I went through my "women's liberation era" where I changed my last name to one that happened to be my maternal grandmother's last name and my father's middle name.

Then I had a long-term, living-together relationship with a man and did not change my last name.

When that relationship ended I lived alone for a few years, but eventually I wanted my original last name back and had it legally changed again. (however, it is French and hard for people to pronounce.)

Then I met my present husband. When we decided to get married I surprised myself and wanted to share his last name. Actually, I didn't care much about keeping or changing my last name. Now I like the signal it sends to people that we are a team.

Soooooooooo...

I really understand it all:
wanting your original name
wanting to take the man's name
wanting a name that you come up with yourself
(and keeping it married or not)
not caring all that much what your last name is

It's all fine with me.


My favorite raw vegan

Trive, aren't you in NZ? I take it by this post that you are ok? Heard about the big earthquake there this morning and thought of you straight away.

Yes, Trive, I was just wondering how you and any other NZers are doing--hope all are safe and well.

Thank you, coco. I'm fine. The earthquake was in Christchurch which is on the South Island and has been devastating there. There have been over 65 deaths according to the last news program I saw. Many people are still trapped in collapsed buildings. Aftershocks are also a huge problem. A really strange thing is that with the extreme pressure, water is forced into the soil and there is "liquifaction" where the ground becomes like a muddy soup in places.


My favorite raw vegan

Tamukha, I jut saw your post after I sent mine. Thanks for your concern. I know a family who moved to Christchurch from my town, but don't know how they are.


My favorite raw vegan

Will light a candle for all. Heart breaking these recent catastrophic events the world over. Really, really tragic. I'm so glad you are safe.

I've been married twice (still married to husband number two). I kept my own name both times. Never a big deal to anyone.

Unromantic though it is, a big reason to get married is have some control in legal sitatuions--being able to make decisions for an incapacitated loved one, being able to be there while the loved one is in hospital, making your loved one the beneficiary of your pension/social security/health insurance, etc. Domestic partners have to jump thru lots of legal hoops if they want those rights (and some they just simply can't have) and even then, their wishes are not always followed. I know two different people who were in LTRs and when their partners died, their late partners' birth families swooped in and took damn near everything. My friends happen to be gay. Situations like this are a huge reason gay people want to have legally recognized marriages.

You can write a will at any time in life naming any beneficiary, no need to get married at all. Same with giving power of attorney for making decisions, etc. People have this idea either that 'all will be well, no need to make plans' OR that the only way to deal with a partnership is marriage. Funny that, I have never been married or common-law and I know about the alternatives.

Do you know, here in Canada if a single parent doesn't have a will specifying custody go to a relative the CSA takes those kids and puts them into foster care and the family has to FIGHT to get them back? I don't know who makes up these stupid rules but they should be slapped.

Glad to hear you are ok Trive <3 *huggles* I will be praying for everyone there,I don't watch the news anymore so I heard nothing about this till now...

as far as the OP goes, I dont really think it matters either way, if a member of a couple wants to take the others name, thats cool, if not, thats cool too, as far as some of the other points people have brought up about marriage, im actually against marriage having any legal benefits, and just offer civil unions with the benefits marriage currently has, but considering it seems like the whole point of giving marriage special tax benefits was to give people extra incentive to get married, but being married often makes life financially easier to begin with, (if both partners enjoy working) maybe the benefits should just go to those who have children, since children are the only thing that makes marriage, or any relationship more financially difficult (short of marrying somebody who is really bad with money,lollll) All other legal benefits can be set up in a living will, like what coco says...

Id give more detail on my feelings/opinions on this matter, but im in a big hurry, got a ton to do today, so maybe I will come back later and talk more about it, stuff like this always tends to be interesting I love hearing every bodies perceptions and beliefs on marriage.

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Trive, sending love to NZ, what a horrible tragedy! Aust will help you guys out for sure.

As for marriage, I couldn't imagine taking someone else's name! My name is my own, given to me from birth and something I've grown up with. It rolls off my tongue like a part of me, it's an intrinsic part of my person.

But no partner of mine would ever imagine I would entertain the idea anyways, it's just not a part of personality. Hehe.

Upon saying that, I don't have an objection to women changing their names, I do have an objection to the EXPECTATION it will be the woman who does. It really irks me when I discuss this with people who have changed their names and the reasons are something like 'it's tradition' or 'it's just easier this way' really? easier? So changing your name on every bank account, insurance account, bill, your passport and all other legal documents is 'easier' than leaving your name the way it was. I work in insurance and I know the red tape one needs to go through just to change a family name on ONE thing!

Seems a bit of a cop out to me. It seems that these reasons hide the real reason that they did it just to get their husbands/family off their backs and keep the peace, and that possibly they were afraid of what people might think if they kept their names (radical, women's lib type or something).

In a world where this sexist expectation was not a factor, and it was decided between each couple without outside expectation, it would be fine in any permutation/combination, male to female's name, female to male's name, both to a different name, each keeping their own, hyphenation etc.

So I don't immediately assume that if someone has changed their name that they are footstools for the patriarchy (this would mean that I am making the same sexist assumptions), but if the subject comes up, I often gently question the reasons as I want to make people THINK about the symbolism of the name change and the assumption that it's always the female that changes.

You know, that's pretty much how I felt about keeping my own last name and giving it to my kids. While it was my mom's maiden name (she never changed it and she's been married a few times now. Sigh, no wonder I don't believe in marriage) she got it from my grandad (and her mom who changed her name at marrying, which doesn't really matter because her maiden name came from her dad, and so on as far back in history as you can go). That was never my name, it was just handed down to me by a bunch of guys.
I nearly changed my first name while I was at it, I mean why not? I was paying for a name change anyhow. Sometimes I still wish I had but you know what? All my friends, my extended family, know me by my given name and it's unusual and special and my dad made it up just for me anyhow so I kept it. But if my babies want to change their names they have my blessing. It is tradition in many cultures to change your name several times in a lifetime to reflect other changes and I think that's groovy.

that is kinda cool actually...Ive considered changing my name, but for my mom, there was so much of her hope and love put into deciding on my name, Im actually quite honored by the thought she put into it, so maybe I wont, at least not legally...

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Yeah coco, I discussed my son's name with him saying if he wanted to change it that'd be alright by me. He thought for a while and said, I think I want to be called Zac, but it only lasted a few days, lol. He may change his name when he gets older, no big deal, he'll still be my boy!

I totally understand if you don't connect with your own name given to you at birth. I used to hate my name when I was a kid, it wasn't a 'hip' name. I remember a girl in the 80s when I was a kid saying to me,'your name is so old fashioned! mine is more new and fashionable.' her name was Deanne! LOL!!!!! 80's name it is, but ladies and gentlemen we are no longer in that era of flouro and bad haircuts!

But my name grew on me, it's a good Welsh name, and that's my heritage (my late father was welsh) and I like the fact that I have a surname that's been in the family for many many generations. Both these names are me.

I think a traditional last name would be nifty. And no, I didn't like my name growing up. Kids made fun of me something fierce, curly hair, big eyes, big lips, my hippy parents dressed me funny, and then the unusual name ooh, I was Such a target.
I like it now though, people are always going on about how nice it is. And the hair too, people love the hair.

Haha, yes it's funny what we hate as kids cos it makes us a target, but the same thing we love as adults. Curly hair, big lips, big eyes, who WOULDN'T want that as an adult! Lol.

I love my name--it is my identity, and I would never consider taking a husband's surname or hyphenating mine; I think that would look dreadful, because my name is its own little melody, and any other name would likely throw off the meter!

I have always enjoyed being called Miss, though it does remind me of when I was a schoolteacher and the under-fives would wail my name, drawing it out to a train of a dozen of syllables with the "Miss" as the engine car. Still, I have never found it off-puttingly modern, the way some people do, as my mom had a few "womens lib" friends that went by "Mizzzz." I liked the way my front teeth hummed when I said it

I don't think there is anything wrong, however, with a woman's taking her husband's name out of a sense of tradition, as in the case of a cultural custom. I come from a burgeoise but ethnically traditional Ukrainian family. My mother took my father's surname at marriage, and wisely so: Her married name was lovely and elegant compared to her maiden name, and suited her--a lovely, elegant woman--better

I think there may be an important legal imperative in the U.S. to having a legal union; you can write all the living wills you want--they won't necessarily be honored, as we see from all those gay and lesbian couples whose union has no standing at all in a medical crisis in states where non traditional marriage isn't legally binding.

Lastly, I have never seen the point of being married, as I love being on my own. It hasn't been necessary, in modern times, to marry for financial reasons, though with our regressing economic system, society may be reverting to this again. I would only marry if it were more important to my Prince Charming to marry than it was important for me to remain unmarried. That would be my first compromise, I guess In the case of children, they'd be adoptive, and I have no idea whose name they'd take, but I don't think I'd wish to allot them--one for daddy, one for me, two for daddy, etc. Just too confusing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2011 02:06PM by Tamukha.

Tam, I am like you in that I don't do things unless I can see a reason behind them. For me, fitting in doesn't interest me in the least and I think I enjoy being a bit different As for taking a man's name in the 'sense of tradition,' what bothers me is that the "traditions" set up favor a woman losing her identity. What about a man doing it for a change?

Oh, I watched a news story about a man wanting to do that, didn't have a connection with his estranged family but had been practically adopted by hers... anyhow, long story short he was Not Allowed by law to do it! It was frantically ridiculous to the point of lunacy, some archaic ruling that disallowed a man taking his wife's last name. Bet if you researched that you'd find those rules still in effect.

Does it ever make you worry about a post-apocalyptic time when people might refer back to some of those unchanged ancient unreasonable rules for an enforceable standard of behavior?

hmmm, that wasnt in the U.S. was it? as Ive personally known multiple men who took the last name of their wife...

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Pretty sure it was. Big country with funky laws all over it you got there...