Let me guess - this is great? If only they could teach it to 3 years olds, it would be even better. Now the term 'sex toys' is finally appropriate.



[www.dailymail.co.uk]

"Before the election, the Liberal Democrats said they ‘unreservedly’ supported mandatory sex education in primary schools.

But in its report, the Christian Institute warns ministers that compulsory sex education would lead to the proliferation of explicit material.

It states: ‘If sex education is made compulsory for primary schools, the publications highlighted in this report are the kind of materials that will be used with children as young as five.’ "



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2011 01:06AM by KidRaw.

This is sick for grade schoolers to be seeing this. This is soft core porn writing/illustration.

Thank GOD my kid never set foot inside a public school building...

My TAX DOLLARS will not go to fund this crap...

OMG... daddy looks a little worried with all the balloons tied to his hands and feet and floating in the air. LOLOLOLOL!!!!!

Makes me want a space hopper!

If the whole thing weren't so utterly ridiculous it would be shocking. Much, much too young for that sort of sex ed.

Here's an image from the book I had when I was 3, it's called "where do babies come from" and has accurate drawings in it of naked people at a few stages of development. I have that copy, I read it to my kids.

[www.sparklingadventures.com]

I watched my sister being born when I was 6, little man was the only witness to his sister's birth also at the age of 6.

You guys are so freaking uptight it's frightening. Bodies and babies are nothing to be afraid of. I wonder how careful you think parents should be about protecting their children from over-hearing the news on tv or radio, adult talk of world issues, or the dangers of television in general. Seriously, shaking my head over here.

My son had his first 'life education' class at about 8 yrs of age. They have a mobile bus that goes around all the schools and has lots of different body pics and stuff.

Thing is he already knew most of it, literally. We'd discussed this stuff ever since he could talk whenever it came up.

Why is this such a huge deal for people in the US? Those pics are weird, why not simply make them anatomical, and factual? Why do you guys have to weird everything up? Nobody blinks an eye about sex ed here in Australia.

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's an image from the book I had when I was 3,
> it's called "where do babies come from" and has
> accurate drawings in it of naked people at a few
> stages of development. I have that copy, I read it
> to my kids.
>
> [www.sparklingadventures.com]
>
>
> I watched my sister being born when I was 6,
> little man was the only witness to his sister's
> birth also at the age of 6.
>
> You guys are so freaking uptight it's frightening.
> Bodies and babies are nothing to be afraid of. I
> wonder how careful you think parents should be
> about protecting their children from over-hearing
> the news on tv or radio, adult talk of world
> issues, or the dangers of television in general.
> Seriously, shaking my head over here.


Coco, I really have to disagree with you! The picture you showed is something I saw as a kid as well (similar pic). That is not sexy at all, even though it could be described as explicit. I think this is very sick stuff. We were talking about pedophilia and if I didn't know better, I would think a ped wrote this garbage. Telling your children the mechanics of sex is something a parent must gauge; I don't think it's crucial until they are a bit older (8 or 9 at the earliest). Children are pure. They will let adults know when they say a "bad word." They get very modest, even in families where they are not shamed for nudity. It's just developmental. Mention kissing a girl to a young boy and most will go "Yuck!" So it seems very inappropriate to expose them to this stuff too early on.

The illustration to describe an orgasm using a baby??!!!! One thing everyone needs to realize is that there are many "pillars of society" who are into child porn. I mean YOUNG CHILDREN getting raped,etc. Burns my blood! Here is an example of a BABY (toddler in diapers) getting raped:[www.examiner.com]

The connection between describing an orgasm and showing a baby getting tickled turns my stomach and I see a sinister mind behind it.

I've heard said before, the more you can get a person to suppress thei sexuality, the more they can be controlled.

Also, in my personal experience, if something in this world is causing me emotional pain, say like some of the pain being expressed on some of the recent threads concerning sexuality, this usually has to do with my unresolved issues around some past event, rather than a fresh response to what is in front of me, which is actually perfect.

Prana, I am not against children being taught by their parents that they are sexual beings. Shaming children is horrible; making them feel like their bodies are dirty or any natural exploration is wrong is bad. But there is a definite agenda that I see being played out where people in authority are taking the initiative to expose children to information for which they are not capable of processing. One of the reasons I refuse to label myself "liberal" (I prefer 'progressive') is that I believe that there are boundaries that should be observed in life. One of them involves seeing others (in this case, children) as they are, not as you are. And understanding what is comfortable for them at their age, not wanting to render them as little adults. The same applies for marital difficulties. I think it's foolish to relate to children as you would another adult or a teen and burden them with unnecessary info. Being mindful of the differences in abilities to grasp and digest various issues/problems is important so you avoid confusing and/or harming children, IMO.

Kids learn modesty, it is Learned not inherent. In cultures where nudity is not a big deal nobody is self conscious of their bodies. My son is nearly 10 and just now becoming hesitant about being naked, this is a direct result of influence from peers at school. We don't have any hangups about nudity in our family, my parents didn't raise us like that and I am the same with the kids. Bodies are beautiful.

When a child asks about where babies come from they also often want to know WHY adults do what they do to make that baby. Pretending that the only reason people have sex is to get pregnant, as though it is a job you must do for the pleasurable end result of a baby is not accurate, it is very misleading. Child psychologists say that letting children know that mom and dad want private time, letting them be aware of the sexual aspect of that relationship and that mom and dad enjoy it is healthy. What's unhealthy is creating a psychology around sexuality that doesn't ever speak of or acknowledge the pleasurable aspect of it at all. This paints sexuality with a smutty brush, it is taboo, it is illicit, there is something wrong with it. That is the way to bring up confused and unsatisfied human beings.

No child should ever be sexualized (Bratz dolls, padded bras for little girls, barbie, pop icons and music, etc included) but neither should a child's sensual nature be subverted. Kids get told all the time not to touch themselves, that it's dirty, we make up ridiculous infantile names for genitals, we lie about where babies come from and hide healthy sexualty from them while exposing them to the skewed version available in popular media, religion teaches that masturbation is a sin, society makes a mockery of it as well. Conversely society also belittles sexual inexperience so what a confusing contradictory message our children get right from the start straight on into the teens! Kids are human beings with the same biological imperative as adults and their hormones start telling them what to do at puberty, that is Young and they better have some knowledge to guide their teenage impulses or they will be LOST!

If you're talking about parents with a healthy relationship with their child, comparing sex/orgasm to tickling is a reasonable description. I could describe it like that to my son and daughter BUT I have also had talks with them about appropriate behavior, touching, who what and where with them since they were very, Very small. That's my job as their parent. Thank goodness my mother did the same for me. She never hid sexuality from me and she was very open and honest about relationships between men and women and also what to expect in my life as a child and then a young adult. She wasn't perfect but nobody is, I'm just thankful she didn't include shame and guilt in her lesson because that's is a hard thing to recover from.

What do you tell a child who wants to know why grown ups have intercourse? You can't just say it's to have a baby because that's Not why most people are doing it, that's just a big fat lie and I don't lie to my kids. It isn't something that people who love each other do either, it's not exclusive to love and I don't want kids who grow up thinking that's what sex always means or that it's THE way to express love.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2011 06:46PM by coco.

Coco, I probably didn't really make that clear. If a child asks a detailed question as the ones you mentioned, then absolutely: tell him/her in an easy-to-understand way why people have sexual relations and how they do so. And as I mentioned, no child should be made to feel ashamed for exploring sexuality. But this is the issue of bringing up the issue when it has not been asked by the child. I also saw something on "Oprah" where this child psychologist wanted to teach a 10-year-old girl how to masturbate. I find that intrusive. It's one thing not to shame a child for exploring her body but to take the lead and foist this info on her before she has requested it is intrusive, IMO. Sexuality is an individual thing. Some teens are seriously asexual, not interested, and there are parents who try and force their kids to date before they are ready or "get laid" because for some reason they are afraid of their child not being sexually expressive. My boyfriend had this happen to him and it really turned him off. Sometimes I think the parent is homophobic and wants to "make sure" their child isn't gay...In any case, it runs roughshod over boundaries. Everyone is different. Your child may be influenced by society but this is where we live. People wear clothes! It's okay to conform to that when we live in this culture. In an indigenous culture (in the rainforest where it's warm, LOL) then perhaps it would be odd to demand to wear a lot of clothes. But I don't think our clothing requirements are that oppressive or shaming.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2011 07:10PM by banana who.

klomasius Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Why is this such a huge deal for people in the US?
> Those pics are weird, why not simply make them
> anatomical, and factual? Why do you guys have to
> weird everything up? Nobody blinks an eye about
> sex ed here in Australia.

The article was from a UK website.

If a child has no interest in learning masturbation, then I can see forcing the child to learn it as being intrusive. However, if the child has interest in it, then it seem teaching it would be helpful and loving, not intrusive.

All that seems necessary is to either let the child ask for what they want, or if a parent doesn't know, ask the child if they want to learn about sexuality.

The loss of innocence is not the learning or expression of sexuality. The loss of innocence is learning how to hate or feel shame or to experience judgment about oneself.

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Also, in my personal experience, if something in
> this world is causing me emotional pain, say like
> some of the pain being expressed on some of the
> recent threads concerning sexuality, this usually
> has to do with my unresolved issues around some
> past event, rather than a fresh response to what
> is in front of me, which is actually perfect.

Are you implying that those folks opposed to sex education to really young children are opposed because of unresolved issues in their past? That had there not been some "event" in their past that they would otherwise not be opposed to teaching young children sexually explicit material? That there is something wrong or unresolved with them because they don't think the way that you think?

Hogwash.

I typically agree with everything you post and I respect you greatly, Prana. But it makes me nausious to read what you wrote. Reminds me of people that said if you don't support the war in Iraq then you are not patriotic. As though something is wrong with a person if they don't think the way you think.

I was talking about me. Why are you taking it so personally?

When I do find something that brings up emotional pain for me, what I like to do is to feel the pain, and to see if I can source where the pain is coming from. In the times that I have sourced the pain, the pain goes away once I find some acceptance of my source of pain. And in that place, I feel lighter.

This is a process of celebration for me, not one of judgment and the need to determine right/wrong or good/bad. My pain is a gift to me, and I love and embrace it.

Rocketship, yet it seems the people getting weird about it are Americans..

I give up! I'm not even sure why I come to these threads!

Word.

Banana, you and I generally agree and can't say this is an exception. Anyone who isn't ready shouldn't be forced to do anything. You are right, it is homophobia a lot of the time. So sad when the parents of very young children force gender specific roles on them, that is just as abusive as anything else but widely socially accepted.
I do support a level of sex ed in schools though, sex ed is essential to the good function of society and lots of parents are too embarrassed or uneducated to teach it themselves.

Coco, you are right about some parents not providing proper instruction. I have always believed that there was a place for sex education in schools. This just seems icky to me: "As they cuddled, your dad's penis moved gently inside your mum's vagina and sperms flowed out." But what if that isn't accurate? Shouldn't they say "Your dad banged your mum against the headboard and she had multiple orgasms." LOL- whatever. Also, "sperms?" I thought the plural was 'sperm...'

klomasius Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rocketship, yet it seems the people getting weird
> about it are Americans..
>
> I give up! I'm not even sure why I come to these
> threads!

And from where do you hail, if I may ask? "Americans" are not a monolith. Sheesh, thanks Dubya! Seems like ever since the last Administration, the USA is looked down upon, even those of us who did not support the 8-year Reign of Terror.

The thing I find odd is how it seems these days we must be either at one pole or the other when it comes to a position. For instance, I have argued with people about abortion on a "liberal" site. The fact that I am not gung-ho about abortion general must mean that I am ultraconservative, Christian fundamentalist, etc. Ironicially, I believe that NAMBLA justifies itself by saying that children are sexual beings anyway so why should they be limited in expressing it, even with those who are much older.

It's not a recent thing, I remember this attitude towards Americans from when I was a child and I even grew up part of the time in a border town. It's perpetrated by the media but also by some American tourists themselves. I've had groups of fat yahoos come into a store I was working at and loudly proclaim about our "funny money" and make obnoxious comments that were just plain rude. Why come to Canada if all you want to do is complain about how un-American it is? Anyhow, this is like 2% of the Americans I've met in my life but they stick out the most in my memory.


Banana, I should have started by saying just didn't take the original article very seriously. It's posted by a religious news agency after all. That material is not all for 5 year olds, I've seen this same story more than once before. Any parent would choose age appropriate language and pictures for their kids, so would teachers. The thing is, in a lot of places kids are already experimenting at the age of 7 and 8, they do need to know what's what and they will hear nonsense from friends and have no idea what's true if that's their only source of information. Do people really believe that not providing sex ed to kids means they won't learn about it somewhere else? Doesn't anybody remember being that age themselves?

Actually, children having sex at age 7 should be interviewed and the family life investigated. It is simply not "normal" for children to be engaging in sex acts like that. Most likely they have been abused to even know how to perform oral sex or intercourse. Obviously I am not talking about playing doctor

LOL- Stoopid Americans...Well, being from the Chicago area, I have heard that those in Wisconsin (possibly Michigan, too?) have a name for us. Maybe Tam or someone knows what it is...They think we are yazoos, too. The American-centric mentality is NOT respensentative of the average traveller, IMO. It just can't be! Most people who enjoy going to other countries seem to be interested in cultures outside their own. In any case, I am gonna have to defend Americans. We've been beaten up enough lately.

Coco I get the feeling that you are making another "the pendulum must swing the opposite direction first." argument, seriously, a middle ground is good and healthy, the pendulum does not have to swing the opposite way for balance to be found, I pretty much agree with about everything nanners has said, AND about everything you have said to, just not to the extremeness you have stated it...

I do not believe that mandatory explicit sex ed belongs in schools, at least not at such an early age... But I agree that parents and society in general need to stop teaching shame, especially in regards to the body, and for that matter, all of the bodily functions as well, we all do them,lol...
(Physical education on the body, not the sexual aspects but the basic biological aspects only, I am not against being taught at a young age, but im still unsure if I believe it should be mandatory... but I think it may be best, oh and of course how to react to inappropriate sexual behavior from others...)


As far as Sex Ed goes for older, Id say a good age to do so at would be around 15, shortly be4 the historically average age of 16 for the average girl to lose her virginity, I believe the male average is actually closer to 18 if I remember right...here is what I would teach to my children, albeit awkwardly,lol.

1.The proper usage of various forms of birth control
2.the need for gentleness
3.foreplay
4.The need for a loving connection for a healthy sexual relationship (but making it clear that there is nothing wrong with being sexually attracted to people you do not have a loving relationship with, just that it is usually healthier emotionally and physically on average to know the person well and have a good emotional bond with them.
5. clearly teach and define the differences between healthy behaviors, things that constitute emotional and physical abuse patterns, and how to deal with them constructively, how to recognize them more easily in yourself as well, and how to make things right and change those patterns, and not to beat one self up over it, but recognize its natural but that any behavior harmful to yourself or others needs to be worked on and changed...

Obviously there is a TON more than just that, but thats what I can come up with and list right now, ive been planning on writing a book actually, if anyone wants to contribute any ideas, clearly listed so I can understand what youd like them to describe, id appreciate it. (even people with radically different views to mine) Email them to me at owl.o.puss@gmail.com, no view nomatter how radical on one side or the other will be rejected, all will be considered, although possibly not included directly, but will be considered when deciding what to put in the books. (ones for little kids and teenagers)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Curator: IMO, that is too old to first discuss some of those things. Actually, the show I cited on "Oprah" was good about one thing: it mentioned encouraging teens to masturbate/mutually masturbate rather than need to do intercourse and other more invasive acts (like oral sex). This way the issue of pregnancy and diseases are not something they need to worry about. After all, birth control is now called "safer sex" because it's not 100% effective against diseases to slip on a condom. Another thing that happens is that teens learn about how they receive pleasure, plus they don't have the sexual tension that creates the desire to have intercourse.

But one thing that has to be mentioned is that even teens may not be ready or willing to hear this info. I know of teens who are just not interested in sex, even though most of their peers are curious. Some adults are asexual. It doesn't have to be "fixed" as long as they are not acting this way because of past trauma. We are all different. I do not believe in giving teens the message that wanting sex is healthy and not wanting it is not.

I agree mostly, Im not talking about first discussions with some of them, like I stated its not a complete list, some of the things obviously would be better off being talked about earlier in most cases, and some may not even have any interest even at that age, thats why im opposed to completely mandatory stuff for sexual education, but I think much if not all information should be available if the person is interested in learning about it, nomatter the age, but much of that information I believe should be taught by a certain age, especially the safety stuff...

the lack of shame teaching, and learning to be comfortable with ones body, I think includes the masturbation stuff, I know condoms are not 100% effective, in fact they arent effective at all against some stuff, of course that would be taught as well...

And I never ever said anything even remotely close about teaching teens that wanting sex is healthy and not wanting it is not... Im a Demi-sexual here,lol... a middle ground between supposedly "normal" sexuality and Asexuality, obviously I am ok with both choices if its what feels right to the individual, teaching them the difference between healthy behaviors would cover all of that, such as not letting others to push you into doing something that does not feel right for you... this could be part of a separate course, separate from the sex ed, more of a personal development etc style course...

Basically, teach safety, teach good self esteem, teach responsibility, teach biology, teach acceptance, and teach them to stand up for their own personal needs, and to not allow themselves to be abused... amongst other things of course, but none mandatory...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Ok, seriously? Too late. I was having sex by the age of 14 and so were most of my friends and I am nearly 40 now so just think what age kids are starting at now!
At that age I was the same height and weight as I am now so fully grown, I also moved out on my own 2 years later so maybe I matured faster than some, I don't know (lots of women are married w kids by then). I've had boyfriends since that time too and thank goodness I knew about safe sex from the start though it wasn't taught in school then. BTW I went to a totally regular school in a middle class neighbourhood.

In indigenous cultures where nudity and sexuality are not taboo children of very young ages emulate the sex act, it is totally natural to be curious about it from a young age. It's dangerous and unhealthy for adults to fool around with children, that is certainly true, but "playing doctor" is something that nearly all kids do at some point in their lives and it's best if they know what's what.

I don't think what I've said is extreme. And I don't think you can reasonably attempt to teach how to react to inappropriate sexual behavior from others without teaching what that means, that would have to include explicit sex ed. If it were vague in any way it would leave way too much room for supposition and that's where kids make stuff up, believe weird things they've heard or just don't know what the heck is going on. Kids today are saying that only vaginal sex is losing your virginity so manual, oral and anal sex are common even in grade school. Common! Unprotected too because it's not real sex, you can't get pregnant or anything. And where are they going to get condoms from anyhow? These kids need a good talking to.

Yes, I think mandatory sex ed in school is a good thing. Yes I think it should be age appropriate but you know what? That's what teachers and educators want too. I keep my eye on what happens in school but I'm not worried about this. My kids have already gotten more info from me than they ever will at school. We talk every day about everything, no holds barred, whatever they have questions about. Kids are smarter and understand more than we think. And they are sillier too, until recently my son thought you had to be married to have a baby and he Knows how babies are made! Funny little kid.

Anyhow, we could argue about this forever and not all agree. I personally think that at least basic sex ed should be taught in school from the youngest age people will agree on and parents should supplement that teaching at home even if they are uncomfortable with it. Especially if they are uncomfortable with it!

I am not arguing, and extreme is the correct word to use as you are on the extreme side of a social issue,you just do not believe it is extreme,because its what you believe, that does not mean you are wrong, but when there are two sides, with varying levels within them, and you are all the way to one side, that is "extreme" not always wrong, but still its an accurate descriptor.

Im not trying to argue, as stated above I want every ones opinions, I prefer them in email so I can easily reference them later, I have a horrible memory... so if you could email me your detailed beliefs and preferences on what you want taught, that would really make me happy...

And I said 16 was the average, not that every woman lost theirs at 16, numerous studies have been done on that, and shown it to be true, that does not mean I believe the information should not be available earlier, but that I do not believe its needed by most earlier, and I am, and always will be emphatically against mandatory explicit sex ed by the school system for young children, if they parents wish to teach it so at home thats their choice, or even enrolling a child in a non-mandatory program that does.

I am not here to argue though, I want to take every ones personal opinions into account and collect the information, as i am from many other sources, to make the books I plan on making, ideally, there will be a series of them covering various things, that can be picked from to meet the specific needs of the learning environment at hand... but I want to create an easy to understand, and clearly defined system for teaching these things to choose from, with each book being able to stand on its own, so the individual needs can be more easily ascertained and catered to... Everything from what you would want, to even addressing the people who want no education on it at all...(dangerous in my opinion though, I just want to discover a way to appeal to them, and offer at least some basic teaching that will at least help give the children the tools to more safely discover things for their selves in such an environment.)

No one approach will be best for everyone Coco, I want to devise a system that can help everyone...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Coco, which indigenous cultures are those? I have seen where they have an initiation ceremony for young men and women around puberty (maybe during first menses for girls?) but I am curious about this emulation of sex act. Do they see their parents getting it on? In any case, I am not one to believe that the indigenous are 100% perfect in their society and we "civilized" peeps are all hopeless, LOL. I am sure there are flaws in every way of thinking. For instance, female circumcision is totally ignorant and misogynistic, IMO. There is absolutely no need or reason behind it besides "tradition," which is based upon a belief that women who can receive pleasure during sex are likely to stray from a marriage. Absolute garbage!

I think sex is too emphasized and elevated in our society anyhow. The Puritans were against anything pleasurable (or at least found it suspect). On the other side you have people who think sex is such a big deal. It's not. Animals have sex. It's not the highest elevation of consciousness. But that doesn't mean we should be ashamed that (if) we have sexual desires. I just feel that sex is a bodily function like other ones. No more, no less. No need to be repulsed and no need to make it more than it is...

nanners, can you please email as much detail as you are comfortable with on yuor views, and the subject of sexual education and relationship education that yuo feel comfortable with tot he email provided above, to help with my endeavor? (coco to of course, but I think I asked her already) and even kidraw and rocket, and anybody else... I want to try and incorporate as many varied opinions into this system as possible... (not directly, but in spirit, and I need to understand them all more completely and be able to easily refer to them in the future to be able to do this.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

I can no longer remember where to point you for that specific article but most of the world co-sleeps in a one room house, it would be impossible for those kids not to know all about sex!
Ditto but All circumcision in my mind.
Sex is not a big deal in my mind either. It's not something I want to do with just anybody but it's not a super duper top priority extra special mystical freak show either. You know? It is the prime biological directive for all species but only up to a point. I'm past prime breeding years myself so the urge is no longer as dreadfully overwhelming as it once was (thank goodness!). But I remember being a teenager and that's pretty much the majority of what we thought and talked about. I'll be ready when my kids reach that lovely age. I hope.