Anyone else doing studying the above here or anything to do with health.

Ive been thinking alot about it recently and if i could find a solid backed home course id be up for it. Health is my passion and i wish i had known it years ago before getting ill with a poor lifestyle. It probably wouldnt even be like learning as i enjoy it so thats always a bonus.

Just not sure if i would have the time with the business and dont want to bite off more than i can chew.

Anyway yeah be good to hear if any others are studying something similar.

[www.amlaberry.co.uk]

I am currently in a radiography program. Very intense, but also very centered in anatomy.Not too much about preventative medicine, but diagnostic. Curious things to learn about anatomy, things I never thought of before. I really should write down personal questions that come up, things I think of along the way which I find kind of strange, but investigating them would be too much of a departure from the program outline. Like why there are two lobes on one lung and three on the other. I think it has to do with making space for the heart on one side, but couldn't one of the lobes be smaller or something like that? Also the blood vessels which go in and out of the kidneys are different.

That has been something a professor brought up in class, noting that nobody really knows the answer to. TCM has noted the difference also, but I don't recall what difference is made for tcm

I graduated from a holistic nutrition course a couple of years ago. It was a live class (not online), which was taught over the course of 5 or 6 weekends. We had to do a couple of case studies at the end (where you interview people, ask what they eat and come up with an eating plan for them). There were readings and homework assignments. It was quite a bit cheaper than holistic nutrition courses online, and covered the same material.

It was interesting and I learned a lot. However, it lacked rigor, at least to me, and there is no way that the course gave me the preparation I'd need to feel comfortable working with actual clients, especially if the clients had significant health problems.

You are in the UK and it might be different there, but I'm in the US, and we were cautioned again and again that we could get sued if we gave a client anything that sounded like medical advice--that is considered practicing medicine without a license. A 'holistic nutritionist' is not recognized by any state licensing body in this country, so all you can do is make some recommendations and make damn sure it doesn't sound like you are 'prescribing' something; oh, and have some good insurance, too, just in case someone sues. That is what our instructor advised us to do if we were going to do this as an occupation.

Myself, if I were really serious about a career in nutrition, I'd go back to college and get a bachelor of science in nutrition/dietetics. Graduates of those programs are licensed--and there are several raw and vegan nutritionists who went through university nutrition programs. For example, Vesanto Melina and Brenda Davis, the authors of 'Becoming raw: the essential guide to raw vegan diets', are both registered dieticians and also raw vegans.

If a university sponsored degree is not possible, then I'd try to find a live class. Our instructor was a naturopath and was quite knowledgeable; it was really good to be able to ask questions and get an answer right away.

Hope this helps.

RawLibrarian,

Quote

Myself, if I were really serious about a career in nutrition, I'd go back to college and get a bachelor of science in nutrition/dietetics. Graduates of those programs are licensed--and there are several raw and vegan nutritionists who went through university nutrition programs. For example, Vesanto Melina and Brenda Davis, the authors of 'Becoming raw: the essential guide to raw vegan diets', are both registered dieticians and also raw vegans.

This was very interesting and useful. I have heard that the curriculum can be very skewed toward industry--you know, "sugar is sugar" and other propaganda--and I would find that almost impossible to sit through for four years, or whatever fraction of four years one must be subjected to it. But if these people managed to get through without controversy, I guess it is possible, and something I may consider, with my culinary background.

I wonder if Mislu will weigh in on this . . .

Tamukha,
Wow, I feel honored to be asked for input. I am a bit skeptical of the value of being a registered dietician in and of itself. My partners sister holds a B.S. in nutrition, and I often think that it doesn't stand for bachelor of science. But it does give her the ability to oversee the local school lunch program for high school students. She actually fought with the school board to continue to serve deep fried foods. She was upset that she lost. She thought that it was 'ok' to have some available, as nobody is going to go overboard on them, and make unwise choices, right? She serves her children a diet centered around processed foods, mostly white flour, alot of sugar. But figures that its ok because they get dairy and meat, gives them a multivitamin and mineral, so its all good. They might have a piece of fruit once a week, and maybe a vegetable once a month or somehting.

I have seen her books she read for her college, something about them just seems wrong. It makes nutrition seem so complex, which it really is if you list out every chemical step that the body has to do. But really the body just does what it does, and you don't have to think about all of those most of the time. I just wish the book stated what would make nutrition so much easier, and result in better health. Eat whole natural foods, avoid food additives, eat raw and fresh whenever possible. Most of the time nutritional deficiencies are a result of refining, poor agricultral practices, and perhaps some poor life choices, like excess drinking, lack of fresh outdoor air, sunlight, exercise, smoking.

I agree that nutrition is very skewed to industry and doesn't significantly challenge bad habits that people have that are damaging peoples health. Also doesn't address agricultural practices which result in erosion, loss of minerals, application of pesticides etc...

But I don't want to discourage anyone with an interest in raw foods, and veganism from becoming a nutritionist. It will probably take someone with a very strong understanding of living foods to influence nutritional paradigms towards living foods. Certainly there will be a lot of people who will question it, or criticize it, but I know that changes have happened and will continue to happen. I remember taking a class in nutrition in the 80's and some of the nutritionists absolutely hated some particular alternative author on nutrition. It was a vegan author who advised a lot of fresh fruit and veggies, no dairy, meat etc... But I noticed since then the government has started the 5 a day program, and the new guidelines on nutritional labeling. Putting more importance on cutting back on fat, sodium, sugar. Encouraging people to get more natural fiber, and reducing the importance of particular nutrients like protein, calcium etc...as people were tending to eat more to try to get 'enough' of some particular nutrient when they didn't need to.

Mislu,

See, that's why I awaited your response! I remember you mentioning how clueless your sis-in-law can be about nutrition, and I was thinking, well, she must have learned this somewhere. Unless she was bucking a "sensible" curriculum the whole time, which is unlikely. I cannot tell you how many formally trained degreed Nutritionists, who are otherwise intelligent, when questioned about permitting things like junk food, intone, Borg-like, "everything in moderation." That isn't scientific! It isn't!

Also, you have said that there is a whiff of the don't-deviate-from-the-norms about some of the instructors you have had in your program, like you're wary of bringing something up that contradicts what is being lectured. Now, YUM! Foods members such as Taco Bell and Pizza Hut are petioning the USDA to be included in the food stamps program on the basis of their being food[NO!]; they'll probably be approved. I'm just thinking, how will the Nutrition and Dietetics curricula reflect this change? I am cynically expecting it won't be for the better. This is galling when I think that they could instead take the lead in promoting actual foods in their coursework, and--gasp--in activism! I bet if those disciplines did, and I am being serious here, there would be no fast food joints within hospital lobbies; I was shocked the first time I saw this, and actually complained to a director of this massive hospital, and organic produce would already be accepted by food stamps programs, which they generally aren't. What is wrong with this picture?!

Tamukha,
Yes, she comes up with some really strange things, and defends the unthinkable at times. Shes critical of my partner who hasn't eaten mammal or bird meat in quite a long time, but he still eats eggs and fish, but maybe once a week or every two weeks something like that. She thinks hes going to get deficient in b12 for not eating beef every day.

When I went on vacation I left my goldfish alone, basically without being cared for or fed for just over two weeks. I had asked the local aquarium guy about that he said that aquarium fish could go for as long as six months without additional food. Recycling the muck in the tank, and algae growth that quite often appears in the tank. Anyways, my partners sister predicted that she WOULD DIE!!! She said everything needed food everyday! She looked at me like I set out to abuse my little goldish. Well, she was still alive when I returned. But not only that she was more beautiful than ever! Brighter colors, her tail actually grew about twice as large! So, her nutritional knowledge and predictions were way off. I never told her that I personally have gone for a week without food, just water. I don't know what her reaction would be about that.

I am way too tired to really think about the problems with the food stamp program, but yes organic food should be real food, fast food not....can't people buy soda with them? I never understood the everything in moderation thing, especially in reguards to junk food. I guess its a matter of perspective about what someone thinks of junk food. For some its just processed and sugary stuff, candy, doughnuts. Others might also include white flour products, like white bread and noodles. Others might include any cooked food product, whole food or not. Perhaps dried food might be junk food for some people. I don't understand 'moderation'. That could mean something for one person and something else for another.

I often feel like doctors and professionals need to be more clear and objective about these sorts of things. When my partner had some surgery on his foot the doctor encouraged him to start walking on his foot 'a little' when it was starting to recover. I envisioned him just taking a few steps from the car to the home, or just walking around the house. Well, wouldn't you know it he started going for half mile walks. For him that was 'a little', because he was a marathon runner before he had his problems. Having the surgery was perhaps the worse thing for him over all.

His mother fell down and broke her neck about 10 months ago. She had seen a doctor, and he had some questions about her nutrition. I actually wasn't present to hear the dialog. But he advised her to eat everything in 'moderation' and to eat a balanced diet. That she could have a 'little' bit of junk food if she wanted. But I recall something about her needing to eat better in there somewhere, but all she heard was that she could continue as she was doing. I am not surprised at all that her neck has never healed. She is tired of wearing the collar, so basically doesn't wear it anymore. If she ever falls again, its not going to be pretty, either death or paralysis. I think she sometimes puts the collar on if she feels stiffness or soreness, but its not very often. I got her some supplements of greens concentrates, and a more balanced forumula of minerals with vitamins, all from food sources. Shes not interested because I recommended them. Instead she takes calcium carbonate and vitamin D because her daughter the nutritionist suggested them.

Hi Powerlifer and Tamukha,

Powerlifer,

This school might be OK for learning some stuff at home. There are nutrition and herbal studies courses, and you earn a certificate. I have no idea what that would mean for you in the UK. You'd probably learn some good stuff though!

[www.pennfoster.edu]

Tamukha,

I'm working towards a degree in dietetics. So far, there are some things that aren't so good; but on the other hand, it's amazing! For one thing, the science of vegan nutrition is undergoing an incredible surge of new research, and the results are moving (slowly) into the mainstream.

American Dietetics Association's policy is that dietary advice must be evidence-based. To provide evidence-based research to dietitians, the ADA keeps a library called the Evidence Analysis Library (EAL); and research submitted there is graded by the ADA. Several of Dr. Neal Barnard's studies are in the EAL, and have received high grades. Also, the ADA has a position paper confirming the beneficial and healthful effects of vegetarian/vegan diets in all stages of the life cycle.

The vegan evidence is substantial, but especially for diabetes and heart disease. Here's a great video lecture by Caroline Trapp that covers diabetes evidence as of 2010:

[www.youtube.com]

Currently though, most diabetics are advised to follow the standard count-your-carbs, take-more-insulin approach. We need more vegan dietitians!

Regarding raw, Becoming Raw, by Vesanto Melina and Brenda Davis was a good ice-breaker, but the research is very sparse so far. That's where we come in! Would that be fun?!!!

The other dietitians where I live are not vegetarians, but they have been absolutely wonderful in helping me out. They've known from the beginning that I'm vegan, and it hasn't seemed to bother them. For a couple of weeks now they've known I'm raw (my neighbor is a nurse, and she happened to mention it to one of the dietitians). I'm not trying to make waves as a student. I think that's the best (and most respectful) approach.

There isn't a nutrition program at the university where I live, so I'm going through Eastern Michigan University's (EMU) online program. The nutrition courses and some of the science courses are online, but other prerequisites have to be taken locally (including science courses with lab). After the prerequisites are completed, the student applies for acceptance into the Coordinated Program, which is a "practice experience" in lieu of internship. The student is required to spend two years with local dietitians who agree to take you on as kind of an apprentice, while you complete assignments (like case studies) from the EMU instructor. 8 different sites are required (4 per year). 3 dietitians and 1 food service manager have to agree to sponsor you the first year before you can apply.

I would advise going this route instead of doing the normal coursework and then the internship, because only about half of students who apply for internships are accepted.. I think EMU is the only school in the US that offers this program (legitimately, where you actually qualify to take the RD exam when you're done).

It's expensive, but grants are available. I'm personally just pushing forward until I can't go any further - and hopefully I'll be done by then.

This may be out of range for someone in the UK, but you could do it Tamukha!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2011 06:53AM by suncloud.

its funny.
I remember taking a nutrition course back in the mid 80's.
It was full of advice on eating low fat.
Everything was low fat.
And of course"eat your meat and dairy to get your protein".

Vinny

and all loaded with sugar? one of my partners other sisters makes this dessert that is just pure corn syrup....and she always says ' its low fat!!!' like its ok to eat...

My mother does the same dang thing! Only she buys garbage for my kids and thinks it's ok because "It's ORGANIC!" As though organic flour, sugar, butter, etc isn't still junk food. Sigh. Organic cheesy puffs, organic oreos, organic chocolate cake and frosting mix, organic gummy bears, and so on. I could just SCREAM!

Hi all,

It does seem pretty discouraging sometimes that so many people seem to be so totally in the dark about what foods are healthy and what foods are not.

A couple of months ago, I was on the Mainland, and I visited a dietitian to see if she could shed any light on my sensitivity to greens. I thought she might be helpful, because she advertised as being able to counsel vegetarians. OOPS! She told me that because I was a vegetarian, I should be eating way more protein than meat-eaters (not a confirmed hypothesis, according to the ADA), that otherwise I would become anemic (not so), and that I should start eating tofu because it's fermented (it isn't).

I don't think she was a vegetarian, but I never asked.

Old tales die hard I guess, despite all the science available.

Meanwhile, vegan dietitians are moving forward. Brenda Davis for example, is the leading dietitian for a diabetes program on the Marshall Islands.

I'm sure you've heard of Bikini Atoll. That's where the US conducted nuclear testing. People there were evacuated to other islands and away from their traditional food sources. US sent them packaged foods, consisting mainly of white rice and Spam. In addition, islanders also apparently learned somewhere to use Kool-Aid as a condiment.

When a generation or two grows up without learning their traditional means of acquiring food, tradition can be lost.

Today, the Marshall Islands population has the following diabetes rate:

30% by age 15.

50% by age 30.

No figures beyond age 30, but according to Brenda Davis, for age 35+, it could be 95%.

Many believed the high diabetes rate was due to radiation fallout. A few years ago, some good people got together and were awarded a grant from the US Dept. of Defense to set up a program to combat diabetes in the Marshall Islands. Brenda Davis and others have set up an intensive 3-month vegan program. They teach people to prepare vegan meals, they walk with them several times a day, do aerobics with the women and boxing exercises with the men, they've partnered with the Marshall Islands Agriculture Dept. to help the islanders set up home gardens, and with grocery stores to sell more fresh produce.

The program has been a success of course, and provides further indisputable evidence that a vegan diet works!

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2011 12:55AM by suncloud.

Not to poo-poo this program but... a vegan diet only works long term with B12 supplementation. So, even though it may be a choice we make for various reasons, IMHO it doesn't seem to actually be what is optimum for humans.
Living on the farm with the horses I saw up close how big ruminants get B12. They eat a ton of bugs. Natural grass is FULL of bugs.

Well, actually, horses synthesize their own B12 and don't need to eat bugs.

[www.understanding-horse-nutrition.com]

But good point coco! Maybe we'll evolve to start synthesizing our own B12. That would be nice.

Or another way to look at it: Maybe it's "natural" for humans (at least some humans) to figure out a way to spare animals, and B12 supplements do that.

Nutritionally, for humans, there's really nothing else that eating animals has to offer that can't come from plant sources. For certain wild omnivores and carnivores, there are nutrients in addition to B12 that they can't synthesize themselves and have to get from eating other animals. Carnitine for instance is absolutely necessary for fatty acid oxidation, and some animals have to eat meat (or supplements) to get it. Humans synthesize our own.

Ah, it said "synthesized by the microorganisms in the horse's digestive tract", I am going to assume those come from all the dirt they eat along with their buggy grass. We might be able to get enough if we ate soil too but... that's how parasites end up in the gut (this happened to my sister from her organic garden, big horror show, very nasty, I wash all veggies thoroughly now).
We are too clean these days but we've gotta be because we live such long lives that illness that we would have died before succumbing too now has enough time to manifest in the body and kill us. So, a catch 22. I'm ok with taking a B12 supplement though, it works for me .

Me too.

Hm. I think the ongoing theory is that microorganisms in healthy humans also synthesize B12, but we don't absorb it. B12 synthesis happens too low in the human intestine - past our B12 absorption spot or something.

Maybe if we stood on our heads more often....

Good thread that i had forgot about lol.

There are a few other things that meat can provide that plant sources dont vitamin D being one and various conditionally essential amino acids. The latter why i hate when seeing various gurus recommending raw diets to newly born as its very dangerous for growing babies to not to be getting various conditionally essential amino acids such as taurine.

[www.amlaberry.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2011 11:38AM by powerlifer.

I know I try to take very good care when feeding my little ones, it's a hard call to "experiment" on them with any sort of restrictive diet. They aren't vegan, I wouldn't do that even with supplementation. Thankfully I have access to free range organic egg layers .

I know this is a vegan forum, I am not advocating eating any sort of animal products for anyone else.

Powerlifer and coco

I share your concern about raising raw vegan kids. Many raw vegans are not settled with their own diets and are experimenting on a constant basis. That's not something to force on a child. What really makes me cringe is when I read about expectant parents who plan on raising their children as fruitarians. What?! Are the parents fruitarians? NOT! Hopefully reality and parental instinct sets in at some point.

According to ADA, newborns should be exclusively on Mother's milk for the first 6 months. No worries there about taurine, because breast milk has all the taurine that babies need. I think we could accurately say breastmilk is not vegan (but it's raw).

For mothers who can't breastfeed, IMO a good commercial organic vegan formula would be the best option because of the possible link between Diabetes type 1 (an autoimmune disease) and cows' milk baby formulas. (Vegan formulas contain all the essential nutrients for babies, including taurine. Mixing your own vegan formula is probably not a good idea).

My understanding is that taurine is currently used most popularly as a supplement for bodybuilders or as an ingredient in an energy drink. However, taurine is normally synthesized by our bodies in the pancreas. Populations known to be at risk for taurine deficiency have health issues that either severely limit food intake or compromise normal organ function, in which case they're often at risk for a lot of other deficiencies as well. Although vegans do have lower levels of taurine, so far there's no indication that it's a problem. Vegans are normally at much lower risk for the health issues that taurine supplements may be helpful for - such as diabetes and atherosclerosis; so there's no indication that taking taurine supplements would be necessary for prevention of those conditions among vegans.

As for taurine as an anti-anxiety supplement, well, I guess that's up to the individual. My husband and I have never felt the need for such a thing in the 25 years that we've been 100% vegan.

A vegan diet (that includes sufficient cooked whole grains, beans, fruits and vegetables) is well past the experimental stage at this point, with the ADA endorsing vegetarian and vegan diets as healthy in all stages of the life cycle.

According to the ADA, "It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."

For the full text:

[www.eatright.org]

Care must be taken to get all essential nutrients. That's true with absolutely every diet under the sun; but overall the risks for acquiring some of our most debilitating diseases is lowest among vegans. I wouldn't hesitate to raise a vegan child, as long as we supplemented with B12 - and also Vitamin D if we lived anywhere outside a tropical climate. I would feel like I was giving my child the healthiest possible start in life, and that's backed up by current research.

From about age 6, my son began to suffer from bronchitis and asthma. The only thing that helped him was to remove all meat and dairy from his diet whenever he started getting sick. He could eat whatever he wanted, and I cooked meat for his father; but my son learned to regulate his diet for himself, because his symptoms could be so severe.

For diabetics, if a vegan diet can help them get rid of their medications and reverse their symptoms, then that's an incredibly wonderful thing. In the Marshall Islands, amputations from diabetes are common. And people go blind of course. When the disease has progressed to the point of needing renal dialysis, they have to move or die, because those facilities aren't available on the Marshall Islands. If they do move and survive, dialysis becomes a ritual that takes over a person's life. It's not a pretty picture. So far, a vegan diet has been shown to be the most effective diet for combating diabetes. The only more effective cure is bariatric surgery.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2011 08:47PM by suncloud.

Suncloud,
I had heard of someone advocating mothers milk for 5 years for maximium brain developement! I told that to a few people and they are all like NO WAY!!! thats way too long. A woman said, no once there are teeth, no more breast feeding! I thought that was funny. But for some reason I thought it was true. The really funny thing was that everyone though that direct breast feeding was the only way. Not thinking that there are breast pumps, tippy cups etc... I remember my brothers wife was taking care of a child and would feed him out of a bottle, but the milk itself was from the mother. She had enough insight to provide him with her milk even if she wasn't always there for fresh delivery!

Well Coprophagia has been observed in horses. I don't know if that is normal behavior for horses, some think its a sign of nutritional problems. But it could just be the biology of horses to do that sometimes. One source says its quite normal for foals. For adults its normal also, but in smaller amounts. If it becomes a large portion of their diet there may be a problem.

That would be a sources of b12. Coprophagia for rabits is totally normal, and probably a lot of other animals, especially if they have short digestive tracts and are eating coarse plant materials.

suncloud,

I looked into that dietetics program at EMU--no idea there was such a program an hour's drive from me--and my goodness it is rigorous! I was daunted by all the coursework and prereqs, and I was premed in my early twenties and have a couple other degrees!

I am in awe of your dedication and wish you the best of luck in your pursuit; keep us posted, and thanks for letting me know about this. I will keep looking into it

P.S. And don't get me started on what we've done as a nation to the Marshall Islands. Sometimes, I wake up screaming . . .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2011 01:35AM by Tamukha.

The world average for breastfeeding is apparently 5 years old actually. And some babies are born with their first teeth already coming in so that's an odd standard to set. Personally I think allowing baby to self ween is optimal. For me that meant that I slowed it down when the nursing relationship changed and I could feel that it was no longer necessary for my little ones, it stopped fairly naturally after that. The little man was 3 and a half and the girl was 2 and a half. Both of them had only my milk for 6 months and then mostly my milk after that. Neither of them has ever had an ear infection either which I think it has to do entirely with breastfeeding, so many kids are sick sick sick from those!

For me I would rather find a food source for essential nutrients than a supplement, especially for the kids. B12 can be had, D3 not so much so we always take that in the dark months. Aside from that we use occasional herbs and I take iron but that's because my levels stay low no matter what I eat.

Many of the people on this forum already know more than most traditional nutritionists, I would trust this bunch above a "professional" any day of the week!

Mislu and coco, yes I think breastfeeding is so important. That's great that you went so long coco. I do know one lady who had to quit when her baby started teething, because he was biting her!

Tamukha, you are so lucky to be so close to EMU! I think there are many vegan students there. I've seen two vegan studies in the last year from EMU written up in the Journal of American Dietetics Association. One was by a student along with two of her instructors (who was also my instuctor). Another was I think with several students who added vegan recipes and labeling for the University dining room.

Students at EMU don't have to worry about applying for an internship or even finding their own preceptors. The school arranges all of that for them. Gee, go for it if you can (we will be partners in crime....ssshhh).

I bet Tamukha they would pick up some of your former classes for prerequisites. They picked up my psychology class from 30 years ago.

Yes, I think with your brains and background, you would sail right through!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2011 04:57AM by suncloud.

Aw, suncloud[blushing], that was so nice to read on a Sunday morning--thank you! And I will keep it in mind

has anyome heard of the "clayton colllege"?

Hi eagle,

I hadn't heard of it, so I looked it up. I guess Clayton College closed down. It wasn't accredited, and online students are trying to get their money back.

[en.wikipedia.org]

Accreditation is something to seriously consider when checking out schools. National accreditation is best for job opportunities and for transferring credits to other schools.

Ho! Kim Barnouin, author of Skinny Bitch!, graduated from Clayton. She did OK! Not sure how much the Clayton education helped though.

Bastyr University is a very good naturopathic school in Seattle. They're planning on opening another campus in San Jose.

Thanks.
Didnt know that.
The course I took many yrs ago was correspondence,and it was fully accredited.
It was ICS back then,now Thompson education.
ICS had been around for almost 100 yrs

vinny

I wouldn't mind taking an online or distance course. Living where I do it would be impossible to attend any classes so that's about my only option. I have no idea how to choose a program or a school though, when there is too much choice it short circuits my brain!