Hippocrates Center newsletter includes video reports.

This is one from today's newsletter about testing performed on a fruitarian:

[www.aliveraw.com]

In order to go directly to the video, please use this link (without the quotation marks):


"[www.aliveraw.com];

Was he referring to David Zane Mason??

jackie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hippocrates Center newsletter includes video
> reports.
>
> This is one from today's newsletter about testing
> performed on a fruitarian:

I just watched the video. It had to be DZM, who else?
I believe that Dr. Joseph gave a 'fair' report when he said "mild
anemia"...and "mild deficiency, especially Vitamins A and D". Brian
Clement then came on a blew it all out of proportion. IMHO.
I think it is perfectly normal for a Raw Foodist's Body not to be normal
when compared to the general population.
I'd say there's nothing to worry about.....WY

Yes, he was referring to Davie. My impression was he didn't even speak to Davie about the test results, and now he has exposed his results to the world in a video? Yikes!! Looks like the results weren't all that great.

I have been a little cautious about fruitarianism (all fruit, that is) ever since Rene Beresford (long-time fruitarian guru) got prostate cancer a few years back, and I believe another long-time fruitarian had cancer around that same time.

Hello,
Sorry this took so long to post. I dropped the ball on this for several weeks. After this, I sent two E-mails to Dave over the past week as I wanted him to review the response before going public. However, I did not get a reply and we started getting numerous requests to AliveRaw.com as well as to Hippocrates for the response, so I decided released this yesterday.

David, if you get this, please respond to my e-mail. I can also arrange a call if you would like to discuss. Hope all is well with you.

With all due respect, I have to say that the 2 doctors do not look healthy and vibrant to me. I am not attracted to do whatever it is they are doing.

On the other hand, I AM interested in doing whatever Dave Mason is doing, as he looks young and healthy and alive. His skin and eyes are glowing. And his mind is certainly sharp and intelligent and creative.

I do not concern myself with tests or their results any more. Most test results are based on an average population of people, who are all unhealthy. We don't even know what a healthy person is!

I like what Doug Graham says: There is no substitute for healthy living.

: )

Love,
Julie

I thought Brian Clement looked fine. I didn't get the impression the first doctor was a raw fodist, but that he was a clinician who just did the testing.

David Mason is a young man. Brian Clement is probably 20 years older; isn't he in his 50s? Even the most diligent raw foodist will show certain signs of aging at a certain point. For example, Doug Graham has facial wrinkles and is balding; his wife has facial wrinkles, and I think she's in her 40s. Tonya Zavasta has is now doing facial exercises to counteract changes in her facial structure and musculature during related to menopause. I am not criticizing them at all; I'm saying that this is a normal progression, even for raw foodists.

I'm 59, and when I was a younger raw foodist I hoped I would always look 29, or at worst, 35-- my expectations were fueled in part by the hype, and also by my idealism and naivety-- but it was not realistic.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

whats going on with the man's blood test? Can some one please explain to me? I am not sure I understood the whole thing?

So they are saying there is a mild deficiency of Vitamin A and D and also there is little anemia right? But was the young man was feeling fine and had no symptoms?

If a person has no symptoms, then is it ok to have results that indicate that there is deficiency and still not take supplements? Are they saying that it is not wise to follow mostly fruit diet? Does it have long term bad effects while making people feel better in the short term?

I am not trying to judge or criticize but I Just want to know your view points on the young man's blood test results as we all are interested in the same thing here (eating raw and staying healthy and happy).

Take care
A Iyer

For sure, the non raw med sounds less aggressive in his diagnosis...
One thing strikes me on the aliveraw website: it's just a store selling supplements. Sorry, but it really looks like it, a store with some advice on why you should buy the products...

Raw Fruit Festival
[www.raw-fruit-festival.net]
Health, Fitness and Fasting Retreats in Spain
[www.fit-in-nature.net]

It smells like fish to me. I am not happy with the way Clement handled this. I think Dave comes across with more integrity.

What you observed in Clement's integrity also matches his existing reputation. Funny how that works.

I could be wrong (I didn't watch the vid) but it looks like what all of a sudden the test results are worst than they were coveyed to Dave or are now made to look that way that's the impression I get as I skim through this....seems kinda odd to me but hey what was expected, you didn't expect the guy to suddenly be pro all fruits did you!? no... he's going to pick the worst things he can find and use it to support his argument and forget about all the many, many good things that is going on in Davids health/life....this is why it's not wise to do these things with people that have an adgenda.

And all this stuff about Doug graham and past Fruitarians...these guys have spent more time on cooked foods than on raw foods, you all gotta remember that they were not always Fruitarians/raw foodists and also their/our health depends on how their/our parents ate/lived also....so when I hear stories of these raw guru's dying of things like cancer it really doesn't surprise me because like I say, they weren't always raw and chances are niether were their parents and their parents, so really the best you can do is simply enjoy your life while you can.

As a long time Fruitarian myself I know that fruitarianism/raw veganism is not perfect, nothing is, I'm not going to live forever but me listening to my intuition and going strict fruitarian is the best I can do to improve my quality of life out of all the over options.

Just my 2 cents

F1





Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2008 05:07PM by fruitarianfitness.

Why was Brian Clement's diagnosis so exaggerated? I don't understand his hostility towards a fruitarian diet, especially since there was nothing out of the ordinary or life-threatening in the blood analysis.

He's trying to sell something. And he is unsullied by a conscience or morals or integrity or anything like that. His ATO (amygdala/thalamus/orbital complex) circuit is busted.

arugula,

Now thats funny! :-D

Bryan, you will like this, it is a great paper with lots of pics:
[moritzlaw.osu.edu]

Some people were born to be evil.

I think we are being way too judgmental and defensive here. I don't think anyone here has any hard evidence or proof that Brian Clement is the evil individual that he is being made out to be. I would wager, in fact, that his motives are benign and that he is genuinely seeking the truth. I'm not saying I think he's right or wrong-- I leave that to history to decide.

My inclination is to let Bryan Clement interpret the tests as he sees fit, as a doctor and a health educator, and I will continue to eat what I think is right for ME, without impugning his integrity.

The raw food movement is still evolving and finding itself (as it will always be); it seems to me we need to work together in harmony, even when there is disagreement about key principles.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

kwan Wrote:.

> The raw food movement is still evolving and
> finding itself (as it will always be); it seems to
> me we need to work together in harmony, even when
> there is disagreement about key principles.

you rock! seriously, you have such empathy and such heart and you are such a team player. i appreciate you...even if it is only in cyberspace that i "meet" you kwan LOL
patty

I agree with Kwan. He should be allowed to speak without Ridicule.
Brian Clement is clearly wrong with his attack on Fruitarianism in
General, not just on DZM. I don't know what he's trying to prove.
His Hippocrates Health Institute in WPB, FL is a place of Healing for
many. He chooses to do it without Fruit (or with very little). His
personal diet doesn't include Fruit and I think he looks pretty good.
As for me, I'm going to balance Fruit with Greens, and not go to either
extreme......WY

jackie

are you associated
with hipocrates inst or
the guys in the vid?

what was your intention of this thread?

thanks

I have not seen the vid, If it is about health of a 100% fruitarian diet
`the results of that test the most extensive ever done were sadly done by the `Nazies in the 30s On all age groups of prisoners strictly meat, or dairy, vegs, `cooked, raw. fruit, ect, Results best health was had by the fruitarians.

The mild vitamin D deficiency was explained by David as the result of too much time in (the office). Was there any mention of vitamin B 12 status?

Yeah, I was wondering about the B12 too. I bet DZM finds a little more time to get out in the sun now! Also, what Dewey said (Kwan, you have a fan club!!! )

brian does have an agenda. that agenda is to sell his business.

his methods are incredibly unscientific.

this has nothing to do with impugning his character.

1. he has not established that the deficiencies are associated with health status
2. he has not compared the results to any other subjects
3. he has not indicated how much off the so called baselines the results are
3. he has made statements about the tests that are not scientific
4. he has tried to tie fruit ingestion with having specific actions on the body cells. this is unproven nonsense.
5. he has made statements about cellular actions and structure that has no basis in fact
6. he is overweight

i could go on

Hi Fruitgirl,

I get newsletters from the Hippocrates center, but I've not yet had the chance to visit there, nor am I associated in any other way.

I've been a longtime member of this site, and when I saw this video I thought right away of some of the fruitarian discussions I was following.

My raw food ideas run along the lines of Wheatgrass Yogi - I balance fruit with greens (although it's hard to grow wheatgrass down here in the summer-> high humidity=mold).

I'm a smoothie gal, and this summer I'm eating pretty much all smoothies with various greens and fruit. Works for me!

So, I guess you could say my intentions were to add information to the fruitarian discussion.

He also didn't mention which specific assays were used for A and D and how accurate they are. Since these are both fat-solubles there are some similar issues. But vitamin D in particular is notoriously difficult to assay with precision. Some labs simply aren't equipped to do an accurate assay. And some tests aren't as indicative as to the true state of D as others. There are many potential D-related compounds in the blood to test and each has its own set of issues.

No, he tried to twist this as if to make the volunteer fruitarians look very sick. Especially Dave, who is so positive and well-behaved. It turns my stomach that he did this to Dave.

This is not the behavior of an honest, helpful, caring man. It was dirty and underhanded. I stand by my original statement of a busted ATO circuit. His moral compass is underdeveloped. I did not intend for anyone to derive amusement from writing it.

I wasn't that interested in Clement's comments about vitamin deficiency, but I did find the blood cell analysis (broken cells that sound like they're hemmorhaging?) of concern-- at least something I'd want to know more about. I personally am probably low in vitamin D every winter, and although I don't like it, I don't worry enough about it to take vitamins, because I don't want to teach my body to rely on supplements and stop manufacturing its own substances.

Too bad he can't test a large number of raw foodists-- fruitarians and non-fruitarians alike. I'm guessing that he wanted to, but only David Mason stepped forward. I'd like to see him test at least 50 people. (No, I would NEVER have let him test me either!!) One of the problems is that we raw foodists tend to be averse to being tested, doctored, poked and prodded. (We're smart.) But we still complain when 'experts' try to take scant evidence and make pronouncements about our collective group's health or lack of it, based on that small amount of data. We are suspicious-- perhaps rightly so-- of the tests, because I think we suspect they're skewed by SAD diet statistics and not relevant to raw foodists.

Another doctor who HAS tested a lot of raw foodists is Gabriel Cousens. I wonder what his overall results have shown?

In retrospect, I'll say this it was pretty ridiculous and inappropriate to so publicly condemn a fruitarian diet based on the results of one individual-- I agree that even on that one point alone his testing results are rendered totally unscientific.

The whole thing is unfortunate.

Fresh-- I agree with a number of your statements, but is Brian Clement overweight? I didn't notice that particularly. I'm a little bit overweight myself, so I guess I don't notice weight problems in other raw foodists unless they're really quite chubby.

We need David Mason! Dave, where are you? I'm sure he'll be as upbeat as ever about all of this and cheer us all up.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

sharrhan

>
> Too bad he can't test a large number of raw
> foodists-- fruitarians and non-fruitarians alike.
> I'm guessing that he wanted to, but only David
> Mason stepped forward.


all i would ask is that he has himself tested or someone similar
not too hard. he should already have the info, although it would be difficult to trust it unless we had an independent unbiased evaluator.


>
> Fresh-- I agree with a number of your statements,
> but is Brian Clement overweight?

i would not judge or condemn anyone based on how close they are to their ideal weight unless they are putting themself out there as being on a program to aspire to and judging others. i have met him in person, and yes he is overweight.

i too am interested in what happened to Rene and why...

I think that what is bothering me about the video, as arugula, fresh, & several others have alluded to, is the more or less unscientific way that the information in the video is presented..

First, anyone that is in business to sell anything, anywhere, anytime, anyhow, has an agenda..Generally speaking, that agenda will ALWAYS be to promote & therefore sell, whatever products & or services that that particular business specializes in..Therefore, it should come as no shock that any business would attempt to denigrate & marginalize any person or other business that contradicts or competes with it's positions.. That being said, there is no gainsaying that over the decades the Hippocrates Institute, in all of it's incarnations, has helped many thousands of people in many ways..

I don't think that most of us who embrace raw veganism would argue that a substantial amount of the knowledge that physicians, especially those practicing Western-style medicine, teach, accept, & promote as "TRUTH" is based on faulty logic & premises..

Most of the data that has been collected over the past 100 or so years that is used for postulating theories & trying to prove those theories right or wrong, has been collected from human beings that we now know to have had less than optimal body chemistry..

My grandmother will be 105 years old this November..The food supply that her mother used to create & cook meals for her as she grew up during the developmental stages of her life in NO way shape or form resembles the food that is available for her to eat today..Even if she was being fed meals cooked completely from scratch by her nursing home, which she obviously is not, the raw ingredients used to assemble those meals would still contain minute traces of hundreds upon hundreds of chemical adulterants that just did NOT exist 100 years ago..

Thus, the blood, skin, cells, etc. collected for the baseline data for all of the scientific medical studies that have been & currently are being done, regardless of the field of study, comes from humans that cannot be considered to be "PURE" or "NORMAL"..
The advent of so-called modern medicine coincides exactly with the Industrial Revolution..The proliferation & dissemination of man-made chemicals into the environment, & thus our food supply; has come along at the same time that humans have started to learn about how our bodies work, & how to try to heal or repair those bodies..

IMO, the FDA recommended amounts of vitamins needed for daily human cellular function thus seem to be based on data collected from human beings that have eaten a less than optimal diet..Regardless of how "HEALTHY" the people were that the data collected for the various vitamin studies were, ALL the data collected after the 1950's to 1960's must be considered to be suspect..Those people ate foods that were grown with petro-chemical fertilizers & were sprayed with any number of highly toxic synthetic pesticides, herbicides, & fungicides..Even those fruits, grains, & vegetables that were still grown with animal manures are suspect, as the animals ate grains & foods that were themselves sprayed & contaminated..Thus, I tend to wonder what the levels for a healthy raw vegan, fruitarian or otherwise, might be..There just is no data available to make such decisions..

My guess is that time will prove that the FDA charts have little reality for long term raw vegans..I wonder what Dr. Fred Bisci's blood tests would show??..

Not to mention the pollutants that collect in our bloodstream that we breathe in through our lungs & absorb through our skin & eyes as we work, play, & just live our everyday lives..

In the above mentioned video Dr. Clement presents mostly anecdotal evidence..He fails to present any quantifiable numerical evidence of the person's anemia or the Vitamin A & D deficiencies.., Nor does he provide any published case studies or accepted charts that are used to compare the data collected from this person's blood to an established & accepted baseline chart..He is merely giving his opinion..Since the Hippocrates Institute does not promote the eating of fruits except in very small quantities, is this truly surprising??..

Bruce



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2008 04:03PM by baltochef.