I found this article interesting
[www.rawschool.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2006 02:23PM by vegangoddess.

Yes, well I don't buy a thing that she says. She's one of the natural hygienists that doesn't believe in colonics or enemas of any kind. To my knowledge, Nora has no formal nutritional background to make such statements so she therefore holds no credibility.

Peace,

Marcos

Go Vegan for your life, your health, the planet and, most importantly, the animals that we share this wonderful world with!

In my experience, Bryan is really right. When I ate a raw diet high in fats, nuts, seeds, oils, etc. I needed the enemas. Now on mostly fruit and greens I am getting enema-like detox results without having to mess with the annoying tubes, muss and fuss.

That article's contention that nothing is really in there to come out is just flat out horse hockey (as they would say in Texas).

Dr. Max Gerson determined that for his most severely toxic cancer patients, coffee enemas had to be administered around the clock -- literally. If the enemas were not performed, the patient would often die from their toxic release overwhelming the channels of elimination.

For more information, see Gerson's "A Cancer Therapy -- Results of 50 Cases".

I agree with learning to fly. The toxins inside a persons system can just paralize all the channels of elimination.

If these organs become sick or overwhealmed they just can't function right and all those toxins get trapped inside causing more and more damage till you suffer your way to death.

Enemas and colonics help to release that stuff so your eliminative organs can breath again and be restored to a good clean state and once again work with efficiency.

Its impossible to bring back good health when your body is over smothered with toxic waste. Not everyone is cured on a rawfood diet. It is just so sad cause really everyone could be if they would just find a way to let their bodily organs breath again inside and wash out the guck and replace it with good magnetic raw fibers that will suck in all the poisonous toxins and can be released naturally when and ONLY when the system has had a chance to heal itself CLEANLY withoug being suffocated over and over again while smotherd in poisons its just too weak to release.

Well, some tend to think that our minds know better than the body, while others tend to think that it is body that knows better. Personally, I tend to trust the nature. And, I don't think that one needs a degree in nutrition to truly learn from nature. On the contrary, going away as far as one can from standard ideas in nutrition, back to our instincts, about which the mainstream science knows so little, is necessary for that to happen. Without understanding this simple truth one is never going to be able to learn from nature. Perpetuating old ideas leads to perpetuating old harmful practices. Nothing can cure one, except from removing the cause.

Gosia


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Yes Rawgosia,

However, to remove the cause you have to get rid of the toxins that were put there in the first place. Raw food alone cannot totally cleanse the body of all of the toxins that you poisoned your body with when you were eating as a normal omnivore. I realized how much stuff was inside me when I combined Dr. Natura and enemas. Now, I'm speaking not as a run of the mill, I just went raw and cured myself kinda guy, but as a vegan of twenty years and atleast a good three years of reading up and two years fully raw. Regardless of what you think, or your inner being is telling you, there is plenty of plaque inside of you that is doing more harm than good. As long as you continue to post to this thread I will try to reach out to your inner conscience to try to get through to you. There is much value in the teachings of those that walked this journey before us. To toss away all of their knowledge because "you know" better is quite prideful. I believe this was one of the seven, deadly sins. I learned a long time ago that we must be humble in all things and be willing to "submit" ourselves so that we can learn that which we truly need. However, a wise person also told me that "When the student is ready the Teacher will appear".

Going back to nature implies education of some kind. You wouldn't simply set out in a meadow and begin munching on anything in sight now would you? Furthermore, you wouldn't pick a mushroom and decide that it looks go enough to eat and then eat it. You would research it first. The same is true about the body. What we're speaking about transcends conventional medicine. Heck, Ann Wigmore, Norman Walker, and many of those pioneers to raw food were decades beyond their peers. So was Dr. Batmanghelidj, who discovered the water cure while he was imprisoned in Iran. Luckily, those great folks shared their wisdom and knowledge. Funny that many raw foodists avoid water because they feel they can "get all they need through their foods". Of course, this is impossible and everyone that I've pointed to [www.watercure2.com] has commented on the benefits that adding water and salt to their raw food diets has made for them. The body requires water. Going back to nature should tell you this too. The same applies to enemas and home colonics. Not professional colonics. Yes, they are good in the beginning but not long term.

All I'm saying is that it's ok to go back to nature but we still need education of some sort to do even that. The blueprints were created and the manuals are there. Will you choose to read them or try to build a better path?

Peace,

Marcos

Go Vegan for your life, your health, the planet and, most importantly, the animals that we share this wonderful world with!

It is true that only Nature heals, however in today's day and age, there are so many ways in which Nature can be overwhelmed, especially with regards to our bodies' delicate homeostasis. And therefore, unnatural input into our bodies may require unnatural means to remove it, as Nature was never designed and is therefore not prepared to deal with such foreign, man-made pollution.

For example, imagine a hypothetical situation where you were tricked into drinking a vial of poison. The poison will surely overwhelm your body's detoxification abilities; however, if you were to rush to hospital, a "stomach pump" or other such intervention could be performed, thereby saving your life. In such a circumstance, the unnatural treatment would trump all of Natural Hygiene's wisdom.

The principle is the same with Max Gerson's clinical experience -- Nature can be overwhelmed by the sheer quantity of poisons released during the detox process, and an UNNATURAL intervention may be required to deal with this toxic flood. Although well-intentioned, the body CAN reach the point of death through its enthusiasm to detoxify as rapidly as possible, since our bodies never evolved to deal with such morbid toxicity as exists in the world today.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2006 02:35AM by learningtofly.

No, the cause are not the toxins in your body, they are the result. And no, one does not to perform unnatural, human-invented, harmful practices in order to heal from ilness that was caused by harful practices. Instead, one needs to remove the cause, and the body will heal. And no, one does not need to do research to know what type of raw foods are appropriate for one. If one ignores the strong signals that body gives, then yes, reading may help. But I would not call it necessary. The blueprints have been created by nature, not by the books people have written. Books are only a reflection of what the humans currently understand about the nature, it is by no means equal to the true wisdom. The wisdom is within the nature. In relation to both bliss AND health. Those who have experienced it, know what it means.

Spontaneus transition to appropriate raw foods is possible, and has happenned to many raw foodists. Even spontaneous transition to raw foods is possible, and has happened as well. How? By following the wisdom within, of course.

Gosia


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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2006 03:05AM by rawgosia.

rawgosia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Instead, one needs to
> remove the cause, and the body will heal.

If you swallow some nails, and then realize the error and never swallow nails again, will the body heal?

learningtofly, for this emergency situation, the western medicine is good only as far as the removal of the nails. But it is not good for creating the optimal conditions for healing after the operation. For that to happen, body needs to be left without harmful practices such as hospital food or medication. Thankfully, humans do not tend to think that nails are food.

Gosia

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2006 03:32AM by rawgosia.

Finally, agreement!

Not entirely.

Gosia


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Rawgosia,

So, in otherwords, what you're saying is that you are walking in a meadow, you see a lovely plant that you body tells you looks apetizing and you reach for it and devour it. Two hours later you are found dead. This happened because you listened to your body but failed to read up on this type of plant which is highly poisonous. Sounds downright silly to me but people do it everyday. I guess you're no exception to the rule.

Peace,

Marcos

Go Vegan for your life, your health, the planet and, most importantly, the animals that we share this wonderful world with!

Hi rawgosia
I agree with Marcos and learningtofly,
like Marcos said <<<<However, to remove the cause you have to get rid of the toxins that were put there in the first place. Raw food alone cannot totally cleanse the body of all of the toxins that you poisoned your body with when you were eating as a normal omnivore. I realized how much stuff was inside me when I combined Dr. Natura and enemas.>>>>

I can sure vouch for that personally. When I was first transitioning to raw even if I tried to go slowly still my elimination system slowed down and clogged up all too soon. I just would get more and more sickly and stuff just kept getting worse and worse and I got the jaundic appearance and had funny sensations all over my body and cramps in my legs and my feet started getting a little blue and I felt so nausious and dizzy and would hallucinate and it was just sooooooooo horrible it was really really awful. Both of my ears blocked and my eyes were twitching and I had laryngitis alot too. My arms felt really funny too and my heartbeat was very fast like as if I had been running and it just stayed that way feeling like I was gonna have a heart attack. I was just getting worse all the time and nothing was giving really just tiny tiny amounts at a time only and not regularily.

Fortunately the only thing keeping me from enemas was my own discomfort in mind which thank goodness I got over. When I did do home enemas(just distilled water) stuff just came flying out and by doing them regularly everything got better again and the horrible symtems started to fade away. I released alot of harmful gasses and pressure and my color went normal again and the blue coloring on the top of my feet was gone too.

So how the hell can you sit there on your self righteous high horse and say you know better than all the rest and that it would have been best to continue to get sicker and sicker from continuously circulating all those poisons that continued to make me sicker by the day.

Sorry for exploding but I just wish I could you to see the point of just how horrifically ill the build up toxins can make a person and that when you become ill your eliminative organs become weak and ill as well and just can't remove the toxins that are making you sick so you just keep on getting worse till well the body just can't breath anymore and suffocates in its own waste.

To get well you have to get that stuff out.

I have read it on here time and time again how people have been weeks and even months raw and still aren't eliminating even every DAY!!!! its cause they are too clogged up with waste thats just not being removed from the raw diet. And every time there are all kinds of people advising them not to use enemas or colonics to help and to just keep suffering and nature will fix it. What does it take to get people to just understand that the body can only do so much. The more sick the body gets the less it is able to eliminate and that leads to more and more self poisoning.

and also like learingtofly said
<<<<<And therefore, unnatural input into our bodies may require unnatural means to remove it, as Nature was never designed and is therefore not prepared to deal with such foreign, man-made pollution.>>>>

That is so true. The laws of nature were designed 6 or 8 or 10 thousand or hundred thousand or whatever some odd years ago. They were designed for the bodies that were designed back then and this was before they were first weakened by cooked foods and then worse by eating sticky grains and flesh foods and what not. And have continued to weaken over thousands of generations all the way till the pathetic sickly form of humans left roaming the earth today.

Enemas(I don't remember when colonics came out) were used five thousand years ago even and who knows if that was even the first time. Our ancestors weren't stupid. They recognized the benifits of helping nature to remove the toxins that age us prematurly.

I think humans have been needing enemas or colonics ever since we started eating cooked foods and over time our genetics have become weaker and weaker. Natures laws were made to work with no help on the human body that was created in the garden of eden when there was no pollution and no impurities whatsoever on the face of the earth.

Now in todays world we need such methods more than ever cause you can't go anywhere in the world without ingesting some sort of toxin through air or water or food or anything the world is not the pure world it was in the beginning.

Enemas and colonics are the most natural and effective way of protecting us against all that and these can also be enhance incredibly by following with a wheatgrass enema or implant(in enemas or colonics) which will help further to cleanse and remove whatever may be lurking inside as well as to help restore and revitalize.

Marcos - Silly? Of course you argument is silly (note that it is you who constructed it, not me). Nature is not that silly. Until you understand that, there is no point in me going over simple points that you clearly failed to understand.

singiraw, this debate can go forever. I see no point in trying to collect votes for or against. I have expressed my opinion and am not interested in trying to change anyone's mind. I am satisfied with the fact that the simple truth about Nature resonates with those who are able to understand them. I am happy for others to choose the practices they want, they are entitiled to that. I also maintain that insisting that others must incorporate colonics as their lifestyle (which I consider to be a harmful practice, and my opinion is not an isolated one) is going too far.

In my view, no amount of intelectual argument is going to prove Nature wrong.

Gosia


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Rawgosia,

This is a rawfood site and not a natural hygiene site. With all due respect, perhaps you'd be much happier with like-minded people. Very few people on this site are natural hygienists and therefore think differently than you. I am a perfect example. I find it amusing that you would call my discussion an argument. Obviously tells me you see the glass as half empty rather than half full. I've never thought of this discussion as anything more than that. However, because of your thought process, which may be in alignment with other natural hygienists, you seem to be out of place here. Maybe I'm wrong and, that's quite possible but you just seem to want to debate about too many things rather than leaving them alone. In school I was a debate captain and it's part of my nature to debate, discuss and learn. You seem to be offended whenever anyone challenges your thinking. Just some food for thought.

Peace,

Marcos

Go Vegan for your life, your health, the planet and, most importantly, the animals that we share this wonderful world with!

"This is a rawfood site and not a natural hygiene site. With all due respect, perhaps you'd be much happier with like-minded people. Very few people on this site are natural hygienists and therefore think differently than you. I am a perfect example."

I am quite happy where I am, and my happiness does not depend on who you are. Nor, does it depend on other people's opinions.

"I find it amusing that you would call my discussion an argument."

??? I suggest that you check the dictionary for another interpretation of the word "argument", different from the one that you are using here (see [www.thefreedictionary.com]).

"Obviously tells me you see the glass as half empty rather than half full. I've never thought of this discussion as anything more than that."

You seem to be putting a lot of your words in my mouth. I suggest that you stick to what I have said, not what I haven't said.

"However, because of your thought process, which may be in alignment with other natural hygienists, you seem to be out of place here."

I am perfectly happy here, and have been here since 2003, when I first entered raw foods.

"Maybe I'm wrong and, that's quite possible but you just seem to want to debate about too many things rather than leaving them alone."

Any raw foodist here is entitiled to their opinions, and expressing them here (in a polite manner, hopefully).

"In school I was a debate captain and it's part of my nature to debate, discuss and learn. You seem to be offended whenever anyone challenges your thinking. Just some food for thought."

No, I am not offened by anyone challenging my thinking, I welcome that. I emphasize again that your insisting that I (or anyone else) do colonics (and calling them silly if they don't) or pray for my colon is going too far. Hopefully you will see the inappropriatness of that.

Sincerely,
Gosia


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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2006 02:05AM by rawgosia.

Rawgosia,

Now you are putting words into my mouth over and over again. I never insisted but I was strong in pointing out how you could benefit.

I didn't put words into your mouth but I did translate that way your thoughts were interpreted by me. Obviously, this is a discussion that you're not happy with.

I don't need to check the dictionary. This is a discussion and a lively one at that. If you view it as an argument then the best thing to do is to walk away. It is not now nor has it ever been an argument.

Also, I'm glad you're happy here. I'm not trying to chase you away but you just seem out of place here. Again, this is my opinion. The best thing that I've learned in situations like this is to use the grocery store method. Take what you need and leave the rest behind. This works best for me.

Ok, so we all know you aren't into colonics. This said, why are you still engaging in this conversation if it is upsetting you? I say this because you've already decided we're arguing.

Peace,

Marcos

Go Vegan for your life, your health, the planet and, most importantly, the animals that we share this wonderful world with!

Marcos, Marcos, you should have checked the definition. The one that I was referring to was "argument = (a) A course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood (b) A fact or statement put forth as proof or evidence; a reason (c) A set of statements in which one follows logically as a conclusion from the others". I hope that this has clarified some confusion here.

Well, when one uses the words "you say/see this or that" and then say things that the other person have not said/seen, it is putting their words into someone else's mouth. To tell someone what you think they mean or want to say does mean to put words into someone's mouth (see the definition at [idioms.thefreedictionary.com]).

Note that to insist does mean to be strong and persisistent (see [www.thefreedictionary.com]). So, by that definition of the word, you have insisted (about others needing/having to use colonics).

The fact that to you I seem out of place here is only the sign of you being uncomfortable with my views. It's OK. You don't have to be. In raw foodism, there is a lot of varying views, as there are a lot of people on different stages of different paths, and we do not have to agree on everything.

This said, why are you still engaging in this conversation if it is upsetting you? I say this because you've already decided we're arguing.

You are assuming that the conversation is upsetting me, because you assumed the different definition of the word argument that I am using. So, your guess is incorrect here.

Gosia


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Herbert Shelton's motto:

"Let us have the truth though the heavens fall"

What does this mean to Natural Hygienists? Does it mean to argue and belittle until the non-believers are converted?

Mike (I assume that you have adressed me, nice to talk to you again ):
1) It is inaccurate to assume that by labelling someone one will be able to expect from them to emanate certain characteristics. Everyone is an individual, if you know what I mean. My opinions are not the result of deciding to be a natural hygienist, or a fruitarian, or anything else (in fact, I have not labelled myself as such so far, and by the way, I have not read much Shelton yet, thanks for the quote). Rather, they are the result of my personal growing, through my personal learning (by intensly observing the world around me).
2) I emphasized many times, but I will repeat that again, in case you missed it. I am not interested in changing anyone's mind, so no, I am not intending to convert anyone. I am happy for other to do colonics, take supplements/superfoods ( ) or practice other ways of living, it is their individual choice. I do not condemn anyone for their lifestyle choices (why would I? I would be condemning my-self if I did). Everyone is where they need to be. I like to share my experience and for me it is sufficient if it resonates with anyone, the same way I enjoy reading ohter people's experiences which may resonate with me. And, what I am opposing here is someone insisting that I (or anyone else) do colonics (and calling them silly if they don't) or praying for my colon. I hope this helps.

Hugs,
Gosia


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I am a totally new person to this message board, and have learned a lot here so far...and have a new set of questions now about colonics vs. solely natural cleansing via. raw foods. I would have originally said that I am 100% for letting nature take it's course, once your diet change is well under way. I am now a little bit more in question than I was before, though it still does seem to me to be a rather unnatural thing to stick a tube up your bum in order to flush your intestines.

A few thoughts. First---it seems to me that over perhaps a longer period of time, eating raw natural foods, especially greens, could do quite a good job of scrubbing your colon, seeing as they are fibrous and contain water. Secondly, it would seem to me that abrubtly changing the environment of your colon such as you do when enemas are administered could upset the natural healthy flora and bacteria that are SUPPOSED to exist in there, thus inviting god-knows-what-else to grow. Any women on here will know what I am talking about when I say that Gynecologists on the whole do not support douching, and know that douching or upsetting the natural balance of the uterus in any way can encourage the growth of yeast or bacteria, resulting in a nasty infection.

On the other side of the coin---I have used a netti pot for a terrible sinus infection that would not go away, and it cured me. I work in an environment that is sometimes rife with sawdust and other such impurities in the air which, coupled with long hours, makes everyone on the job sick at the end of the run. I also live in a dirty, polluted city. These are factors over which I have little control, save changing jobs (working on it). In this case I see no alternative but to flush the sinus cavities periodically, within reason.

My personal conclusion is that I see no reason to use colonics except in cases of extreme impaction that won't resolve itself through diet alone. And I personally would only use colonics or enemas to resolve the initial problem and then revert to a better diet and perhaps Dr. Natura to flush the rest of the impurities. (I have read the ingredients on Dr. Natura's product and see nothing volatile--seems like mostly fiber and herbs to me, though I'd have to research the herbs before trying it).

Anyway, not to get too involved in the bickering between Marcos and Gosia, but I'd like to point out that Gosia has been very helpful to me thus far and I haven't seen her posts to be preachy in any way. Additionally, I see nothing wrong with defending oneself when attacked. I also believe in using your own common sense and instinct rather than just following what the "experts" or advertisements say you should do. A healthy dose of skepticism can be a very good thing...


Cheers!
Katie

To add...

I think that humans are unique in that we are a combination of mind, body and emotions, unlike any other animal. Each one of these "brains" has an intelligence and role in the decisions we make, and sometimes one does a job that the other should be doing. Sometimes, for instance, we overthink something that our instinct and body already has an intelligence about, and other times we overutilize our bodies and forget where thought is necessary. All are necessary--it is just a question which of our "brains" should perform what function.

Anyway, I hope you all don't mind a newbie putting her two cents in.

Hi Katie,
Of course we don't mind you adding in your thoughts

Its nice to have you here with us. I hope your diet is doing well for you so far






Hi rawgoshia,
Its true that we do have to choose for ourselves the practices we incorporate into our life and some like yourself may really feel comfortable and happy without practices such as enemas or colonics.

However the thing is alot of newbies come here trying this lifestyle and get so sick and uncomfortable and get chest and stomach cramps and stuff from the stirring up everything. I have seen it here time and time again.

Enemas and colonics would be a tremendous help to them cause well if stuff just ain't giving thats one way to fix that and feel better again.

When they see you writing that they are harmful and unatural it may leave them trapped then with no way out. Then they could either go back to the SAD diet or end up in the hospital or dead from drowning in their own waste that could have been so simply removed.

Its one thing to say you prefer not to use them. Its another to say they're harmful though. You're then saying its best to just keep on suffering and thats just so cold and inhumane. Some people really need them especially people with less than perfect health and with weak systems.

Singinraw--As one of the newbies, I feel I should comment: I think you are underestimating people who are new and learning about this diet. There are enough varying opinions on this board to gather from, and you are basically saying that people who are new here do not have the discrimination to separate opinion from experience, common sense and experimentation. One person's opinion is not going to throw all newbies into 'the dark place', though it will give them cause to question, which IMO is a good thing. I read all kinds of content on the internet--I take it into consideration but it doesn't mean I am going to believe all of it.

To comment on your last statement---I think it is very possible that colonics could be harmful, based on my observations above, and a new thought that they might dislodge built up material and disperse it into the system inadvertently, thus upsetting the balance. Therefore I personally would approach enemas and colonics with caution, and use them only if really necessary. It is possible, for instance that a person experiencing this violent a problem could make a more gradual change in thier diet, rather than such an immediate one. It is tempting to make the changes all at once, but I am for the conservative approach. JMO.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2006 06:41PM by threebrainedbeing.

No, singiraw, it is you saing that it is best to keep on suffering, I have not said that all. I am saying quite the opposite. That is, rather than perpetuating old unhealthy practices that do not allow the body to heal, one needs to change these practices, and the body will heal. I do not underestimate the power of the body to heal. I do not believe that your argument (just in case, argument="line of reasoning" ) is valid. To me, encouraging others to be able to heal through simple and effortless lifestyle choices, is an empowering message. I realize that it is hard for me to explain these ideas to someone who might be completely unfamiliar with them in just a small paragraph. I am in the process of preparing an article, in which I will explain these things in a little more detail.

As far as your desire to have only views in line with yours expressed on the forum, it is quite unreasonable.

Sincerely,
Gosia


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Hi Bryan and co....

I had a colonic done for the 1st time in 2001...the lady who did this was very professional and gentle... She also told me I had an A1 system (possible due to all of the veg, fruit and seeds I eat).

Fast forward 5 years...my diet is now 70% raw and I know how to blend smoothies at the drop of a hat almost without thinking, because I know how they should taste...however - January 2006 having read the testimonials on Dr Natura, I bought 2 packs and thought of getting rid of my mucoid plaque which EVERYBODY has...past the age of 15...

Stools got larger and larger and in the beginning of the 2nd month saw a lovely white piece of macaroni, only it was a worm as I hadn't had any pasta for the last 7 years.

How to rebuild the flora? Take probiotics or kefir, or yoghurt...even nut milk yoghurt exists if you have the patience to make it at home.

I'm all for doing my research before doing enemas, etc, and so far, fortunately, I've been surrounded either by very healthy friends who own online juicer stores or people who've been doing enemas for the last 10 years. Though I'm not advocating doing daily enemas like the people in 19th century did in England, what I am trying to point out here is that to thoroughly cleanse out parasites in our systems...we have to go deeper than eating clean food...Unless we were born with raw food and never ate any cooked, we have parasites that can cause anything from eczema (ascaris) and even prevent us from getting the nutrition from our food...

I've always wondered why I can't put on weight...now several months after doing the Dr Natura cleanse, I'm putting on weight at last...and it's a great feeling..

Healthy flora? In the kefir!

Star

Star,

What a great testimonial. I'm almost done with my second month of Dr. Natura and am amazed at what has been coming out. If only folks knew what we know.

Peace,

Marcos

Go Vegan for your life, your health, the planet and, most importantly, the animals that we share this wonderful world with!