What are views on becomming possibly deficient then Rab, this isnt to get at you dude im interested in your thoughts. Iodine alone there are many other essential nutrients that arent obtainable and long term will pose a problem.

Cheers

rab Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 811 is not a "religion", not at all. It is just
> common sense. I am trying to follow it, and I hope
> to stay on it for life. But, if other people don't
> like it, or have other ideas, I am always ready to
> listen. There are questions on B12 and iodine that
> I am finding my own answers for, but other than
> that, like someone said, "eat all fruit and
> veggies you can and don't do more than 10% fat -
> that is my version of 811. This can be done in a
> much more controlled manner, and probably should,
> but I am just doing the best I can at the moment.
> The way I got to 811 is - reading. I read a lot,
> whenever I am interested in something, I research.
> So, my opinion is based on rational thinking,
> analysis. I am open to other opinions, but I only
> accept things after a thorough review. Doug Graham
> has written an unbelievable book, I don't think
> that even he realizes how big that book (811 diet)
> is. My only remark is that he is focused on people
> in developed countries, not mentioning the poor.
> But, he has done his part. There will be some
> other nutritionist who will continue in his path,
> I am sure.

I actually think "religion" is kind. It's worse It's something of a euphemism actually for the other term which is thrown around, in my opinion too freely. rab, I'm glad that your diet is working out for you.

I wanted to share a post I found interesting about the Iroquois diet on the McDougall board in a discussion regarding 8-1-1. 8-1-1 can become very expensive, and may be a less earth-friendly choicethan a more vegetable than fruit based diet. YMMV.

Paul

[www.drmcdougall.com]


I've been very interested in this topic because I have tried the 8-1-1 after McDougalling for about 2 years and, while it is fun to try new things, that diet is truly unfeasible. The cost and inconvenience of eating bushels of fruit, even with smoothies, make it impractical. Also, I am trying to eat locally, supporting farmers in my region and reducing consumption of long-distance food. You really can't be a locavore on 8-1-1 as bananas seem to be a staple in it. Part of my research into local eating includes some data on what the Iroquois people ate in my part of North America. Here's a brief quote:

"The three main crops (corn, beans, and squash) were called the "three sisters" due to their important role in sustaining the life of the Iroquois. Other crops included artichokes, pumpkins, sunflowers (for the seeds and the oil) tobacco and various herbal plants, grown in small quantities for teas or medicines...
Wild plants contributed no more than 1% of the diet, but the Iroquois were familiar with a number of edible nuts, tubers, berries etc., which added variety to the diet." (olivetreegenealogy.com/moh/food.shtml)

(Notice the centrality of plant starches.)
I don't think First Nations people were unnatural or unhealthy in their food choices; I do think shipping tons of mangos, bananas and other fruit all over the world using up fossil fuels to do so is unnatural and, ultimately, unhealthy for us all.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2010 08:38PM by pborst.

Paul,

The Iroquois were also inveterate game hunters and fishermen; the plant based part of their diet would not have been sustaining over the long term in this climate. Agree that 80/10/10 requires that one be either way liquid, financially, or living in Hawaii to follow to the letter.

I'm glad you have pointed out that it is too difficult to follow 80/10/10 to the letter. Most of the impoted fruit in the UK is unripe and not of a good quality. It often ripens to be not sweet and succulent at all but still costs a fortune. I also agree about the ethics of shipping/flying it around the world.

The local fruits like strawberries and raspberries havew a tiny season - cost a small fortune in the shops and are difficult to grow yourself in a wet year (such as the last three

The reason 811 diet can be expensive is that the whole world is wired around grains, meat and dairy. So, there are no greenhouses, orchards everywhere, instead we have corn and soy. Often, fruit is the most expensive item in the store, respectively. If more people accepted 811 diet, this would have to change.

To me, people who are eating 90% raw vegan, or even less, are equally welcome to chat about food. People who are on RC diet also - I find it very interesting. But, please don't feel that 811 diet is a threat to anyone. because it isn't.

I know how different scientists' brains work, and I am not easily impressed with scientific theories - they are often contradicting and it takes a while to sort out different views. Therefore, even though I do not accept Darwinian evolution concept, I accept monkeys as my cousins and teachers.

No offense to science, but monkeys "walk the walk"

If the subsidies for the meat, dairy, and grain industry were removed, the cost for 80-10-10 would be comparable to a cooked vegan diet, and way less expensive that an SAD diet.

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Paul,
>
> The Iroquois were also inveterate game hunters and
> fishermen; the plant based part of their diet
> would not have been sustaining over the long term
> in this climate. Agree that 80/10/10 requires
> that one be either way liquid, financially, or
> living in Hawaii to follow to the letter.


Tamukha,

In that temperate climate, am forced to agree with your assessment that the plant fraction would not, by itself have been sustaining. Question, what does that say about the "natural" diet people in temperate climates at that time should have or could have been eating? Raw vegan? Fruitarian? How? Best.

Paul

I think powerlifer makes a very valid point about iodine. Iodine is an essential nutrient. We have to have it for a healthy thyroid.

It's also worth noting that cruciferous vegetables, including kale, interfere with absorption of iodine. Regular consumption of kale, combined with a minimum of iodine can be a double whammy to thyroid health over time. Parents please take note: Lack of iodine can lead to hypothyroidism, resulting in chronic fatigue, weight gain, muscle-wasting, and compromised brain function - among many other dangerous health effects. These are well-researched facts. We can deny them because they come from the boogeyman "science", but then of course, there's also no reason to accept the "science" of calorie, protein, carb, or fat.

Obvious short term benefits may not completely cut it as evidence for continued well-being down the road. Best to at least keep an open mind and be aware that none of us know everything. We're all human, and we're all at least a little bit ignorant.

In 80/10/10, Doug Graham claims that seaweed is not beneficial for human consumption, because it's not an appetizing food. (I happen to like it, and so do millions of others.)

Doug Graham is a human being.

interesting, Ive heard about all cruciferous veggies except kale causing problems with calcium and and iron absorption, but have never heard anything about it effecting ones ability to absorb iodine... I guess I shall have to google this when im less tired, cause kale is a staple for me.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Yeah kale contains goitrogens curator which can cause impaired thyroid function if ate raw.

Cooking inactivates alot of the goitrogens.

hey annex. yeah absolutly.
what's wrong with Grahams right hand ??
besides there are some vids in which his salivary glands look really swollen and I don't but it doesn't look like his actually really healthy.

[www.youtube.com]

and another thing is that considered he is 48 (hope I'm right) ... I'm not intending to be insulting but I just thought apperance stays really quite youthful.

hey annex, yes absolutly-

about Graham.. what's wrong with his right hand?
and what's with his salivary glands, they seem pretty swollen..

[www.youtube.com]

and he's been eating 811 for 30 years.. I don't want to be insulting but I always thought that skin stays a lot more youthful.

I think that we should undergo greenhouse revolution. That is the only way to sustain vegan life.

Paul,

I'm sending a pm in response to your query here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2010 03:03PM by Tamukha.

Has anyone got pics of Graham before he went 811 to show his improvement? Or are people just trying to criticize him now without any baseline?

orrantia49 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have been 811 for 8 months and have had nothing
> but incredible success. Weight has fallen off, I
> am lighter now at 37 than I was when I was
> unhealthy and 13. I have lost 102 pounds from my
> highest point 4 years ago with 85 of it coming
> this year alone. My physical activity level and
> fitness level is dramatically increased and while
> I did have some detox symptoms, my body has
> regulated itself beautifully and I enjoy enhanced
> skin and hair conditions. No more dry and cracked
> skin.
> Whether or not 811 is ideal for people, one thing
> I can tell you is that it is much better for you
> than SAD. Struggling with 811 is better than
> coping with SAD. Do the work, continue to improve
> your 811 regimen and you will find the right
> combination of what works for you. Yes, it is the
> species specific diet, but each of us is unique
> and it takes minor tweaks to make it work for you.

Great attitude and good job.

Doug Graham looks tired. He is healthy, but he is doing too much of extreme fitness training - endurance etc. This is something I do not agree with him about. Humans should be fit, but there is no need for constant exhaustion that is present in the average athlete life. The state of an athlete (any athlete) is the state of an exhaustion. That is why soccer, basketball and other players catch a cold with fever, or even mononucleosis or similar, much more often than average people. Being an "athlete" is NOT healthy. Being in good shape is. I think humans are made to walk and do some easy running. We have arms that we should use daily, so walking and working is the best exercise. Even out of shape human can walk 5 km usually. This is because we are designed for that. Our legs are strong. But we are NOT designed to run 20 miles or more every day, whole year or ten years in a row.
Doug pushes himself too hard, and that is an ADDICTION. Adrenalin is involved.

I think that every human should walk at least an hour or more (outdoors) daily, run a little bit (this depends on individual abilities, never to the point of testing the endurance too much) and work outdoors, using their arms and the rest of the body for at least 2-3 hours (or more).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2010 05:46PM by rab.

+1 Rab, as an athlete, I totally agree with your post. However most people really are not as fit as they should be. I do agree that chronic over-trainig leads to premature ageing.

There is some evidence that consuming a lot of carbohydrates after vigorous activity inhibits human growth hormone function, which could, conceivably, accelerate aging. I wish Doug Graham would address this, as those of us that exercise in the morning and eat fruit within two hours after could benefit from an 80/10/10er's perspective on this. I don't want to be wizening myself!

what does wizening mean?

when you say "accelerate aging," also, do you mean appearance-wise, disk-space-wise/dehydration, inflammation, depletion, or what? I'd rather have a fun laugh with some wrinkles than be a Ms. Cranky-Skirt with a line-less face. tee hee

Sorry Curator. I should have included the source about kale interfering with iodine absorption. I should also say that I didn't mean to imply that consuming kale is unhealthy. It's just that if a person is already iodine deficient, consuming cruciferous vegetables can make that worse.

Here's the quote from "Becoming Raw" by Davis and Messina:

"Certain very nutritious foods from the cabbage family contain substances known as thiocyanates that interfere with thyroid metabolism if iodine is in short supply in your diet. Thiocyanates are naturally present in broccoli, brussels sprouts, cabbages, cauliflower, collard greens, kale, kohlrabi, and flaxseeds; these nutritious foods normally cause no problems if adequate iodine is available from other sources. Fermentation, a food-preservation technique used, for example, in making sauerkraut, eliminates thiocyanates."

Also from Becoming Raw:

"Iodine is a part of the thyroid hormones, and most of the organ systems in the body are under the influence of these hormones. Iodine is essential for energy metabolism, and deficiency can result in either depressed or accelerated metabolic function ...Insufficient iodine has been linked with fibrocystic breast disease. Hypothyroidism can result in a growth called a goiter...other symptoms are skin problems, weight gain, and increased cholesterol levels, all of which can be reversed in adults with sufficient iodine in the diet.

"Iodine deficiency during pregnancy is a different story, as this mineral is essential for normal brain development of the fetus. Its lack causes the most important and most easily preventable cause of mental retardation in children around the world - an irreversible and tragic condition known as cretinism..."

It's important to also not consume too much iodine. Becoming Raw includes a chart for the different ranges of appropriate consumption of different seaweeds. From the chart (this is incomplete):

"-Commercial preparation of sea salt with sea vegetables: 1/8 tsp - 3/4 teaspoon
-Dulse granules: 1/2 tsp - 3 1/3 tsp
-kelp: less than 1/16 tsp - 0.4 tsp
-Nori: 1 1/2 sheets - 10 1/2 sheets"

For a couple of years, I've been consuming maybe 2-4 sheets of nori/week. I may soon find out that wasn't enough (when I get my lab results). I probably haven't eaten iodized salt in over 40 years, and don't plan on eating it now. But consuming a little more seaweed to increase my iodine to recommended levels may improve my health, and I'm always all for that.

From Mayo Clinic:

Symptoms
By Mayo Clinic staff

The signs and symptoms of hypothyroidism vary widely, depending on the severity of the hormone deficiency. But in general, any problems you do have tend to develop slowly, often over a number of years.

At first, you may barely notice the symptoms of hypothyroidism, such as fatigue and sluggishness, or you may simply attribute them to getting older. But as your metabolism continues to slow, you may develop more obvious signs and symptoms. Hypothyroidism signs and symptom may include:

Fatigue
Sluggishness
Increased sensitivity to cold
Constipation
Pale, dry skin
A puffy face
Hoarse voice
An elevated blood cholesterol level
Unexplained weight gain
Muscle aches, tenderness and stiffness
Pain, stiffness or swelling in your joints
Muscle weakness
Heavier than normal menstrual periods
Brittle fingernails and hair
Depression

For the other side of the story, here's the quote from Doug Graham (The 80/10/10 Diet, p. 247):

"...I do not recommend the consumption of sea life under any circumstances. Humans are terrestrial creatures and as such our digestive capacities and nutritional requirements are adapted to the consumption of plants from the land. Aquatic plants and animals are not our natural foods, nor does their nutritional makeup match our needs.

"If you disagree, take yourself to the oceanside one day and collect some of your own fresh algae or seaweed. I think you will find these "foods", as they appear unprocessed in nature, to be abhorrent in taste. Compare this reaction to the sensory trill that you experience when you see, smell, and taste a perfectly ripe piece of fruit picked fresh from the tree. Your visceral response to these two scenarios should tell you unequivocally which of these items is food for humans."

1)Dr Robert Morse says in his book "The Miracle Detox Sourcebook" the best raw book ive read BTW!, that 9 out of 10 times, deficiencies are an absorbtion issue rather than not eating enough of the nutrient. He goes on to say "Inorganic iodine only stimulates the thyroid and can deposit and accumulate in the thyroid tissues causing inflamation and additional thyroid issues."

2)I agree with Doug Graham, I do find sea vegetables to be disgusting

3)Fortunately most of us are able to get fresh produce from all over the globe. If I remember there is only a couple areas on earth, where the soils are deficient in iodine. The great lakes area of US and Canada happens to be one of those areas. I wonder how we ever lived before iodized salt?

4) Congestion of the glands and throat tissues highly contributes to hypothyroid issues.

WorkoutMan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> there is only a couple areas on earth, where the
> soils are deficient in iodine. The great lakes
> area of US and Canada happens to be one of those
> areas.

This is right where we live

thanks for all the information suncloud, I am an info junky I do have to say I do disagree with graham, just because I really love the flavor of SOME seaweeds, others I find gross... but I also dont believe that liking the flavor of something or not means it is or isnt good for you...Lots of people love the flavor of a greasy cheeseburger or a deep fried doughnut covered in some concoction of processed sugars... and many people hate the flavor of many veggies, my niece hates carrots but weirdly likes carrot juice, she also loves coffee >.<

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Utopian Life,

Wizening means getting hoary with age. Human Growth Hormone is implicated in maintaining dermal elasticity, muscle tensility, sex drive, bone density, and immune functioning. It is possible that one could appear prematurely aged, not just become prematurely aged on a cellular level, with a deficiency in HGH. People are once again commenting on Dr. Graham's appearance, and it got me thinking: I'm speculating, but maybe it isn't just a lot of stressful exercise and desert sunlight? Vexing.

Having trained with Doug, I'd put money on it that he could out perform 99% of the population and even people half his age (58) both in strength and endurance. Does anyone know a raw food author that could out run, jump, chin up Doug Graham? I dont. I say being so fatigued that a 58 year old 'iodine HGH deficient fruit eaters' can kick our ass in sport speaks volumes for how unhealthy we really are.

His funny looking finger? Well its clearly an iodine deficiency or perhaps its really a gymnastics injury from back as a teen..

Ive had my thryoid checked and it went from a medically documented low level to a medically documented nomral level as indicated in my 'raw vegan blood test' vids. All with no seaweed. Sure eat it if you like it, a bit now and then wont hurt you but I went 2 years with no seaweed just to prove it to myself and others with medical documentation vs subjective claims based on theory.

Organic farmers load up the soil with iodine. Ive never met anyone with a medically documented iodine deficiency from eating 811, has anyone here? I didnt think so.

For sure its very exsensive or very cheap, depends if we like to get bargains and shop at wholesalers or just pay full retail.

Then again, Ive never heard any of my junkee mates say 'Harley, this habit is killing me financially, I think I need to stop..'

But at the end of the day, we can justify our complacency or we can look in the mirror and step up to what we really want to achieve in life. If our diet and lifestyle is going great, then great, lets stick with it. If not, I would suggest taking objective advice from the crew that are a little 'bananas'.

As for Doug not having botox, porcelain veniers, wearing a beret all the time or taking HGH injections like some other raw authors do, then I guess we cant really compare him. Not to mention the fact he is raising a raw kid in a crazy world and his wife has some immigration lawsuits to battle so they dont have to live forever in cold crappy olde' England forever!

People say I look great but I say Im young so dont compare me with people double my age but if you compare me with my brothers..then yeah, you can see how this diet and lifestyle is paying off big time.

So Doug is 58 with 6 pak abs and done more in his life than 99% of the population. If you want to stick out and make a difference, you have to leave your vanity behind cos your gonna get ripped to shreads by society and last time I heard, all that stress aint youthening..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2010 05:18AM by durianrider.

Some interesting points durian, I would like to point out, that most organic farmers that put iodine in their soil, at least every home gardener and farmer Ive met or read about, do so with what?...composted kelp or something similar... why not cut out the middle man?lol

All that aside, the easy truth about it all is most people in countries that are not tropical or near a place with a tropical climate can not afford to eat even close to how you do, that is a sad economic fact, most families in the world get by on far less per month than you spend in a week on food, I honestly have no idea what is the optimal diet, and I believe its quite possible 811 could be, or could be close, no way yet of really knowing for sure till you can spend 10 lifetimes trying everything out, me, im just concerned with having the best diet that my current budget is capable of supporting, and thats what I have, now excuse me, there is an insane sale on cantaloupe starting at safeway in 3 hours, im going to walk down there and load up a cart then walk back home, have a good morning, or afternoon or evening, i cant remember the time difference...lol

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Iodine is very rarely never tested for so id like to see some paper proof that your levels are fine durian.

durianrider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not to mention
> the fact he is raising a raw kid in a crazy world
> and his wife has some immigration lawsuits to
> battle so they dont have to live forever in cold
> crappy olde' England forever!

His wife is English?

duriander: "Having trained with Doug, I'd put money on it that he could out perform 99% of the population and even people half his age (58) both in strength and endurance. Does anyone know a raw food author that could out run, jump, chin up Doug Graham? I dont. I say being so fatigued that a 58 year old 'iodine HGH deficient fruit eaters' can kick our ass in sport speaks volumes for how unhealthy we really are."

What does that prove? That is a little bit childish, I think.

Doug Graham has written a great book and I truly respect his work. He is the number one nutritionist for me. But, exposing his body to "extreme endurance" over a long period of time - I don't agree with that. That is NOT healthy.

We are not in a competition here, the only goal is healthy living. Some may want to be athletes (which I think is not healthy, but there are many unhealthy professions and hobbies), but that is not the essence of raw vegan diet, nor of the 80-10-10 diet, I hope. At one point in the book he says that all men should be fit as athletes. I agree that we should be fit, but what is an "athlete"? Athlete pushes him/herself to the limits constantly. That is not healthy and there is no reason for that. Also, as I wrote in my previous post, it causes exhaustion and illness. Different terminology should be used for a healthy fitness level. And different philosophy as well.