Hey, thanks for all the feedback. Some of those oils looked kinda spendy for me. Maybe a little goes a long way, though. I've been going barefoot, taking NSAIDs, and applying heat. My foot is almost completely better. I was really worried that it was something more serious. I'm glad it wasn't.

Thanks again


Here's me and Mew Kittens being really happy about it:


david

they are definitely spendy, it does go a long way, but not as long as id like,LOL...not buying another bottle till I get more hours... a cheap arnica gel may help I got a good tube at a GNC for $3, didnt work quite as good as the trauma oil did for me, but it still helped allot.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

WorkoutMan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1)Dr Robert Morse says in his book "The Miracle
> Detox Sourcebook" the best raw book ive read BTW!,
> that 9 out of 10 times, deficiencies are an
> absorbtion issue rather than not eating enough of
> the nutrient. He goes on to say "Inorganic iodine
> only stimulates the thyroid and can deposit and
> accumulate in the thyroid tissues causing
> inflamation and additional thyroid issues."
>
> 2)I agree with Doug Graham, I do find sea
> vegetables to be disgusting
>
> 3)Fortunately most of us are able to get fresh
> produce from all over the globe. If I remember
> there is only a couple areas on earth, where the
> soils are deficient in iodine. The great lakes
> area of US and Canada happens to be one of those
> areas. I wonder how we ever lived before iodized
> salt?
>
> 4) Congestion of the glands and throat tissues
> highly contributes to hypothyroid issues.


Good post! Especially Item #1 regarding deficiency VS absorption. However, if people aren't going to do something about their low absorption, then I guess it's just as well that they take supplements and hope that some gets through without causing further congestion (but I don't know...)

I ran 6th overall in the Toowoomba Marathon thanks to this 811 lifestyle.

I'd missed Doug Graham's interview with Kevin Gianni during Rawkathon in 2009. [www.naturalnews.com] Fortunately, Jack Norris, R.D. and the co-founder of VeganHealth.org didn't. Here is Jack's response. [jacknorrisrd.com]

For those of you who prefer not to click on the links, Doug Graham says people who are B-12 deficient can obtain it from water fasting that B-12 deficiency is due to malabsorption, not malnutrition. Graham claims in the interview we can obtain B-12 from air and water and has personally experienced patients recovering from B-12 deficiency through water fasting . I will leave the reader to draw her own conclusions.

Paul

pborst, thanks for the link to Doug Graham's interview, it is a great one! I haven't even bothered to read the reply (other link you posted), I will look at it tomorrow. It is a very interesting new concept, and it sounds realistic, that B12 is everywhere - as dirt is everywhere! Regular soil, dirt, contains bacteria that produce B12. What is so surprising in his statement then?

Fasting DOES miracles. I am firmly convinced that is a fact also.

I am sure, if we lived outdoors enough, and drank clear water, and hopefuly ate fruit of the trees, we would NOT have B12 problem, even if we NEVER eat meat.
Chimps do eat termites, but I am not sure that it is because of the B12.

So, Doug rules

rab Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pborst, thanks for the link to Doug Graham's
> interview, it is a great one! I haven't even
> bothered to read the reply (other link you
> posted), I will look at it tomorrow. It is a very
> interesting new concept, and it sounds realistic,
> that B12 is everywhere - as dirt is everywhere!
> Regular soil, dirt, contains bacteria that produce
> B12. What is so surprising in his statement then?
>
> Fasting DOES miracles. I am firmly convinced that
> is a fact also.
>
> I am sure, if we lived outdoors enough, and drank
> clear water, and hopefuly ate fruit of the trees,
> we would NOT have B12 problem, even if we NEVER
> eat meat.
> Chimps do eat termites, but I am not sure that it
> is because of the B12.
>
> So, Doug rules

Even though we have had our differences, I don't wish harm to befall anyone. Please don't water fast to address B-12 deficiency. It makes no sense. If one could obtain water in the first place from B-12, then we wouldn't have to fast to get it. Vegan B-12 deficiency is caused by malnutrition, lacking of it in our diet, and not exclusively from the malabsorption that the general population suffers from. It's true that a vegan could suffer from malabsorption as well as malnutrition. The two causes are not mutually exclusive. I asked Dr. Fuhrman on our board yesterday about water fasting for B-12 deficiency and he strongly rejected it. Dr. Fuhrman, the author of Fasting for Health, is a board certified MD with extensive water fasting experience and is IAHP certified. In short, he's authoritative. Please take a close look at Jack's response to Doug. We don't have to agree on every aspect of vegan nutrition. But seriously, don't water fast for a B-12 deficiency. Best.

Paul



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2010 02:52PM by pborst.

"In short, he's authoritative" ...so am I )))

I don't fall for "authorities" - this world is full of "authorities" who will write anything corporations want them to write. As a matter of fact, the ratio between crooked "scientists" and real ones is probably 1000:1. So, when you throw any titles (titles come from Universities teaching WRONG science) at me, I get cautious.

Christian Orthodox priests (those who are not sold to Vatican yet, very few left) are the highest authorities for fasting to me - as wrong as it may sound to you. And they do fast on water only, often. I have done it many times before I became raw vegan.

I like INDEPENDET thinkers. Those are worth gold. Doug is trying to be one. He is not perfect, but I still trust him.

rab,

I was raised Eastern Orthodox and a.) am assuming your aside about the clergy's selling out to the Vatican is snark, and b.) have never known of any of them, incuding the monks I've met, to have reversed B12 deficiency through fasting(this isn't what it's for in religious communities). Any evidence of point b.) in your experiences with EO clergy?

Tamukha, my late mother was born into an Orthodox Christian family. I have a vegan cookbook (okay, it's not raw) that an Orthodox women's group published for "fasting".

Tamukha, of course monks don't use fasting to resolve B12 problem - I don't even know if any monk ever had a B12 problem. Nor do I mean it that way. I just wanted to say that fasting has done miracles, and people who fast regularly have experienced all kinds of health benefits from it. I would not go any deeper than that, but if fasting can help in so many different conditions, it is logical that it might help with B12 also. This should be judged case by case, but I would not call Graham's claims outrageous and wrong.
Our "medicine" is often neglecting ANY natural solutions, so any researcher like Graham will not have any studies to rely on, as most of those are financed by those who want us to use medication and vaccines for every single condition possible. I agree with Graham's natural approach. I cannot claim that he is 100% right about everything that he says, but I like his direction and enjoy reading his views. Like I have written here before, I do not agree with him about everything, but I consider him genuine. And that is a rarity.

rab,

OK.

Horsea,

I wonder if it's the same one my mom got me when I was cooked vegan: A Lenten Cookbook, by the UWAC of Saskatoon?

rab Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> but I would not call Graham's claims outrageous and wrong.

Perhaps you didn't read Jack's Norris's response.

> Our "medicine" is often neglecting ANY natural
> solutions, so any researcher like Graham will not
> have any studies to rely on, as most of those are
> financed by those who want us to use medication
> and vaccines for every single condition possible.

That certainly doesn't describe Joel Fuhrman. He's about as anti-drug as you can be. And he would be the first to endorse a natural approach through eating and fasting if it worked. And that's why I find Graham's assertions about B-12 so troubling. Agree to disagree.

Paul

> I agree with Graham's natural approach. I cannot
> claim that he is 100% right about everything that
> he says, but I like his direction and enjoy
> reading his views. Like I have written here
> before, I do not agree with him about everything,
> but I consider him genuine. And that is a rarity.

Tamu: yes, that is the book I have. I was pleased to see it even if it's 90% cooked stuff.

A mate on FB asked me yesterday about b12. Here was my reply.


#Next time you buy some brand name cat chow, read the label and it will have added b12 in the ingredients list. Check out the Science Diet cat food brand. 1st ingredient is chicken/by products of, 21st ingredient is cyanocobalamin aka b12.

#The body does produce b12 but many people have absorption issues/live a hardcore lifestyle/have different health histories that make supp'n a valid option.

#Ive never had b12 deficiency symptoms. I supp cos it makes sense living in a sterile/polluted environment with excess stress and a health history of chrons.

#In Japan the b12 serum cut off is 550. Australia is around 150. Ive never met an aussie that met the Japanese minimum standard without supp'n. Ive never met a TDF rider/olympic athlete that didnt supp b12 either.

#If b12 was just a 'vegan thang' like the sam neil redneck TV ads suggest then how to we explain the epidemic b12 deficiencies that we see in the western world today? Thats a good question and one we need to ponder.[www.ars.usda.gov]

/pr/2000/000802.htm

#Here are my blood tests from last month. Text book for an athlete. [www.youtube.com]

durianrider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>.>
> #If b12 was just a 'vegan thang' like the sam neil
> redneck TV ads suggest then how to we explain the
> epidemic b12 deficiencies that we see in the
> western world today? Thats a good question and one
> we need to ponder.[www.ars.usda.gov]
>

Noone is saying B-12 deficiency is exclusive to vegans. But the cause of B-12 deficiency for the general population isn't malnutrition, but malabsorption. Whereas, vegans have to consider higher risks because of malabsorption and malnutrition. [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2010 12:18AM by pborst.

<<vegans have to consider higher risks because of malabsorption and malnutrition>>

An interesting and debatable point. This view is derived from the mainstream ideas of optimal human diet, in which eating SAD is considered a norm while eating raw food, abnormal. But this is the type of view that raw foodists are challenging. I think that it is more correct to say that SAD leads to malnutrition. Also, a typical understanding of malnutrition is being too skinny, not eating enough or not eating enough variety. But being too skinny is a very subjective term and many perfectly healthy individuals would appear too skinny to the average overweight person. In fact, one can be malnourished when they are overweight and eat a lot, when what they east is cooked. One cannot be really well nourished unless they eat some considerable amount of raw fruit and veggies.


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2010 11:17PM by rawgosia.

rawgosia, correct. The image they have about vegans is - unhealthy. But, even with all the "risk factors", vegan diet is much, much healthier, or, if you like, many times less risky then SAD diet. As a matter of fact, ANY kind of SAD diet leads to illnes, quickly and surely.

I don't know why people act like "vegans being unhealthy" should result in some conclusion that they shouldn't be vegan, anyway, since there's also "SAD is unhealthy" "Americans are unhealthy." I mean, if we're all going to be "unhealthy" anyway, let's not hurt animals. LMAO

bad is a moralistic term of judgement . do you mean what harms are associated with it? afer 10 months none

life vs lifelessness

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd missed Doug Graham's interview with Kevin
> Gianni during Rawkathon in 2009.
> [www.naturalnews.com]
> toms.html Fortunately, Jack Norris, R.D. and the
> co-founder of VeganHealth.org didn't. Here is
> Jack's response. [jacknorrisrd.com]
>
> For those of you who prefer not to click on the
> links, Doug Graham says people who are B-12
> deficient can obtain it from water fasting that
> B-12 deficiency is due to malabsorption, not
> malnutrition. Graham claims in the interview we
> can obtain B-12 from air and water and has
> personally experienced patients recovering from
> B-12 deficiency through water fasting . I will
> leave the reader to draw her own conclusions.
>
> Paul

Hmm, on one hand i have to undergo a water fast for 6 weeks and pay 11000USD for un-necessary coaching and hope that my Vitamin B12 levels will improve, on the other, i have to eat healthy food rich with vitamin B12 and / or supplement.

What a predicament!I dont know what to do. Oh wait, my blood test of two weeks ago revealed that my B12 levels were closer to the maximum level.

Am i one of those 20% people assuming that 80% people in the world are B12 deficient? Or maybe those figures of people who are B12 deficient are not accurate?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2012 10:30AM by Duke.

Diogenez Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bad is a moralistic term of judgement . do you
> mean what harms are associated with it? afer 10
> months none

You have my curiousity. You yourself have spoken eloquently about non-violent communication [www.rawfoodsupport.com] and yet you resurrect a 15 month old thread which you must know to be contentious. Maybe it's just the optics, but I've always thought "letting sleeping dogs lie" makes sense. I'm curious why the pattern of raising old threads which often show more heat than light. This isn't the first "old" thread to be raised which had a contentious nature.

My concern is that the forum certainly provides ample kindling if you want to start a bonfire from old threads. Of course, as someone will correctly point out, we are "free to ignore it" which is sound advice. But I view that advice as complimentary rather as a substitute. There can be good reason for raising old threads. It's just after Trollio recently resurrected the "Black Pepper" thread (which I oppose), I hope that at least some of the old threads can be less controversial than "Black Pepper" or "80-10-10 Bad for You?" two of the more contentious threads in the history of the forum.

And yeah someone can always start a new contentious thread, but I'm thinking to myself that if one wanted to cause trouble.. resurrecting old contentious threads is easier. Mind you Diogenez, I'm not accusing you of wanting to cause trouble, though I think that was the case with Trollio.

I'm just expressing my thinking that a new thread with the intent of spreading more heat than light makes a better use of my time. So, I'm going to boycott participating in old contentious threads that I have opined on unless there is a compelling point (e.g. personal accusation).

Diogenez, I understand that this was not your point in resurrecting this thread. That said, I hope you understand my concern.

Paul