I actually have a Master's in psycho-linguistics. What a waste of time! Just kidding. Sort of. Anyhoo, I was trying to clarify what he meant and confirm whether or not he was speaking in plural or singular. I was wondering if I had been falsely ID'd as some kind of non-raw person because I'm concerned about the mental state of a LOT of people in the raw vegan community. There's also that thing where I, despite being vegan, believe that vegans are some of the most hypocritically cantankerous and dogmatic people in the world. This often leads to more dark accusations from calm and understanding vegans.

Question: Is Geo incapable of speaking for himself?

Jgunn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HeavenHands ocaissionally in the english language
> something that would normally be considered
> singular is referred to in a plural way
>
> [en.wikipedia.org]
>
> an example might be "so and so just called for
> you" "oh really what did THEY want?"
>
> its no wonder the english language is so difficult
> to learn for some

Why doesn't this person go to DR's site and deal with him there? How bizarre!

HeavenHands

Answer: Im guessing he is

Question: Is there some hidden rule i dont know about regarding answering other peoples questions on here?



...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2011 11:36PM by Jgunn.

No, but considering that "they" could be either singular or plural, it's probably best when the author explains his or her intent.

Jgunn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HeavenHands
>
> Answer: Im guessing he is
>
> Question: Is there some hidden rule i dont know
> about regarding answering other peoples questions
> on here?
>
>

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why doesn't this person go to DR's site and deal
> with him there? How bizarre!


because dr and his posse are just as intolerant as he.

life vs lifelessness

Diogenez Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> banana who Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why doesn't this person go to DR's site and
> deal
> > with him there? How bizarre!
>
>
> because dr and his posse are just as intolerant as
> he.

No offense, but you don't know anything about me or how I post or moderate. I was a very different moderator 2 or 3 years ago. Then, after the Padraig/SuperInfinity debacle, I started changing. He was an Irish vegan troll that I had to ban like 5 times in two weeks. He still trolls us occasionally. DR made me even more hard-hearted, and with every new vegan troll I get more and more aggressive and confrontational.

The other mods complain to me about my behavior with each new troll, then they eventually admit I was right. This fact, to me, vindicates my stance toward trolling there. I don't mind being more aggressive, as long as I am eventually vindicated, and I always am.

No offense, but the criticisms of people who clearly are ashamed of one of their members, and therefore are striking back out of pain, are not very important to me. I'm speaking of you folks there.

If you don't like the way I run my forum, then suggest a better way. There are plenty of raw vegan forums, but really only one truly raw paleo forum. I believe forums should be able to exist without trolling from other raw food practitioners. Since so many vegans DON'T share that belief, I have to do SOMEthing about it.

Really, even if you think all us paleo eaters are crazy, don't you think it makes sense to have at least one forum where people can explore those ideas? I'm not a vegan, but I certainly believe that raw vegans have the right to forums free of trolls.

How about a live-and-let-live policy? Of course, I'll never convince the most dogmatic and fanatical trolls, so...I am forced to take action. What other choice do I have? I really believe I deserve to have a troll-free forum, and that's that. If you don't like my methods, sell me on better ones. There's no point in trying to shame me or pressure me, though. ROFL I already tried the soft, patient approach, and it just allowed the messes to get bigger and bigger, and reduced the opportunity for calm, factual discussions.

The moderator here (there is only one) gives brief emotionless notifications when threads violate forum rules, if it goes too far the thread is locked and that's it. He's not perfect but he deals with things cleanly and quickly, no BS and no indulging in arguments or name calling. Since we look to him for the final say about how this place is run he is pretty much expected to set an exemplary example, which he does. I'm sorry to say, what I read of your posts seems to be inflammatory and participatory as far as the flame war went. You got into it with them, you are partially responsible for the crash and burn.
You don't have to be a marshmallow but you don't have to get down and dirty with your trolls either. Be tough and impartial and don't let it get to you so much, if you can't do that consider giving your status as moderator up and just be a forum contributor.

Cherimoya Kid: Please don't be insulted by this question but drama queen much? I certainly don't bother people over their dietary choices. I can't imagine anyone on here doing so either. You pretty much assumed that we are all trolling you and that's too much drama for me. Goodnight!

Agree with coco.

Some things don't seem to jive:

1. You have a vegan discussion forum on your website, but you don't like vegans to go there, especially if they promote being vegan.

(Is it because the purpose of that discussion forum is to bash vegans, rather than hear their point of view? If so, that's OK, since it's your website; but you should clearly state that. Then maybe you won't get so many vegans, natch.)

2. You complain about vegans going to your forum, but you tell everyone here how to go to your website in your very first post.

(?)

3. You're not happy with vegans, yet you're currently participating in 3 different threads here besides this one.

(?)

OK, Lucy puts on her shrink hat, charges $.25 and concludes:

A. You really like arguing with vegans, but you kicked so many off your forum that you came here to argue with us, and/or to attract us to your forum so you can argue with us there.

or

B. You're a closet vegan, and you're (subconsciously?) looking for a reason to come back into the vegan fold. Welcome my child... We'll break out the fatted um mango/avocado/bok choi/nori/macadamia nuts! Yay!

(well, it's possible!)

Whatever the case, please keep in mind: This is a vegan forum. It's clearly stated that promotion of meat or dairy products is against the rules.

i would suggest to you to learn Non violent communication and i feel it could help you resolve allot of the frustrations you are dealing with as well as better resolve with the people you static label 'trolls'.

i understand very well that you as well as dr or any of the people he tasks with keeping order in the places you manage are under allot of pressure. every behavioral study ever conducted shows power over leads to abuse. No matter if it is parents over children, teachers over students, boses over workers, prison guards over prisoners, leaders over the people they rule... the pattern is the same that is why in the movements i involve myself with we avoid centralization and hierarchy because we understand what it leads to. So in context to the platforms we use (forums of various types) it is inherent to the system that these dynamics occur and can not be avoided. people will continue to get hurt (negative feelings resulting from unmet needs we all share as life) until we transcend and learn or create better tools that avoid this said hierarchical nature.

If you want any help or links beyond this one , diagrams etc i am more than willing to help because it helps me to not face the type of persecution and intolerance i am i imagine many others from your forum and theirs have faced. helping to help and see the humanity in each other move away from moral evaluative judgement see the shared needs and find strategies what will enable us all to contribute to each others well beings.

[www.noogenesis.com]


1

life vs lifelessness

life vs lifelessness

Bye bye Cherimoya_kid - think we've all heard enough now. You aren't contributing anything here.

My God, there's certainly been some activity since this morning. And in relation to your question 'Heavenshands', I'm quite capable of speaking for myself. But since my post this morning (Oz time) I've been out and about with study at uni and work. And I meant 'they' in the singular, and Jodi explained it beautifully, thank you Jodi... I didn't know what gender the person was, so I used 'they'.

Heavenshands, your tone sounded confrontational, and if that is so, then I'm at a loss to understand why. Can you explain please?

Cheers,
geo

geo,

I apologize in advance if I ever attempt to explain anything you've said in your behalf to anyone here.

Come on, some of you are being nasty, narky and provocative. Some of the responses here are actually meant to be taken seriously in response to what I thought was a genuine request for suggestions on how to better moderate. It's not an easy job and there's no shame in asking for advice and help from people who are on a well moderated site with very few issues and flame wars. If you can't take that seriously then please don't contribute to this thread with insults etc, it undermines those of us who took the time to post a thoughtful and considerate reply. I'm a little miffed at you guys.


You know, this is a vegan forum but we are not all vegan here. We behave ourselves and stay on topic for the most part because when we HAVE had non vegan conversations in the past it's EXPLODED in an absolute horror show. Anyone who's been here for a few years can attest to that. So the topic is strictly prohibited to avoid a repeat. I understand and respect that even though there are times when it would be convenient to debate vegan vs non-vegan in certain circumstances. It never goes well though so we just don't do it, there are plenty of other places online to have those discussion so it just is not done here. Fair enough.

Perhaps the vegan thread on that paleo forum is for just that, discussing a balanced view of vegan vs non, comparing, weighing, deciding. I think it's an invitation for that discussion to spread out all over the board though so they shouldn't be surprised if that is exactly what happens. If they want a strictly paleo forum, they could do what is done here and enforce sticking to that.

Diogenez Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> i understand very well that you as well as dr or
> any of the people he tasks with keeping order in
> the places you manage are under allot of pressure.
> every behavioral study ever conducted shows power
> over leads to abuse. No matter if it is parents
> over children, teachers over students, boses over
> workers, prison guards over prisoners, leaders
> over the people they rule... the pattern is the
> same that is why in the movements i involve myself
> with we avoid centralization and hierarchy because
> we understand what it leads to.
>
>

100% agreed. I don't like acting like a dick...I certainly didn't start out as the harshest mod on the site. And yes, I'm known for that. I'm generally polite and factual in discussions, but, once I feel someone is a troll, I'm flat-out merciless.

I guarantee you, I didn't start that way. I feel a responsibility to caution people against the low-fat fruit diet, though, because it did me SO MUCH HARM. When the biggest believer in that diet comes and trolls my site SPECIFICALLY, I see red. I get real, real mad. That's that.

I'm certainly all for democracy in forums, but dangerous diets don't DESERVE fair discussion. Low-fat is dangerous. Extremely high-fat is too, for some more than others, but I don't GET any high-fat trolls, and there's no HIGH-fat fruitarian gurus, so there's much less danger from that. Dr. D is the problem here, and his little buddy DurianRider.

Somebody's got to oppose them. That's just how I see it. All the more true when they won't stop trolling sites on which their ideas are not welcome.

Seriously, what reasonable person disagrees with that?

cherimoya_kid,

You are clearly very passionate about your dietary beliefs, and I respect that. However, your last few posts on this thread suggests that you are extrapolating out your bad experience with high fruit/low fat and assigning its hazards to everyone in a very generalizing way. Many people here have been doing high fruit/low fat for a very long time without any ill effects, and your categorical insistence that it is bad because it was bad for you personally kind of makes me wonder why have a vegan paleo forum at your site at all, as it will inevitably invite the fruit-curious, so to speak. And you are clearly vehemently opposed to that. It might cause a lot less aggro, and make it easier to ban the trolls before they cause a fuss, if you keep it meatist, you know?

One time I started a thread here, a kind of book review from my perspective - mostly negative - about 80-10-10. It stayed up for a while, but was then deleted. 80-10-10 is a very popular diet, and people often have strong feelings about it, one way or the other.

Like you Cherimoya, I've been concerned about 80-10-10, because it seems to me that severe restriction of nuts/seeds on a raw vegan diet makes it extremely difficult to get sufficient minerals and also the essential omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids. When I read 80-10-10, I noticed that many of the "scientific" references were taken out of context and/or misinterpreted.

I too experimented with fruitarianism and a very LFRV diet (no, or very few, nuts or seeds) for many years. I had extreme difficulty with both. I do still eat lots of fruit. It's just that I eat a fair quantity of nuts and seeds as well.

In my view, insufficient nutrients can lead to important deficiencies and/or destructive binge-purge eating behaviors - for some at least. And that concerns me, especially when I see very young people going down that road and possibly having the same difficulties I did, and possibly even developing a life-long fear of some very healthy foods - namely nuts and seeds, which research has shown to be beneficial in all the ways that the alternative fats are not beneficial.

Where our paths differ I'm afraid is that at a certain point (25 years ago), I committed to a raw vegan diet no matter what, and about 4 years later I added nuts and seeds regularly. I've never strayed from vegan during those 25 years, though for a while I had my moments straying from raw. The nuts and seeds have made an all-raw diet possible for me, maybe for similar reasons that the alternative has made an all-raw diet possible for you.

I won't get into why plant fats are superior to the alternative fats or the ethics involved, though I will say that plant fats do supply the only 2 essential fatty acids: linoleic acid and alpha-linolenic acid. All the rest of the fats our bodies use can be synthesized from those two fats plus carbons from glucose and proteins. IMO, raw vegans should probably make an effort to supply those two essential fatty acids in sufficient and balanced quantities.

I'm a little less concerned now than I used to be, because it seems that most people who are advocates of 80-10-10 don't really follow it anyway (although I feel bad when they blame themselves for "failing" ). For the ones that do, if they're that committed, there's nothing I can really say to dissuade them, and perhaps they're able to eat enough fruits and vegetables to get the minerals and fats they need. I don't know if it's impossible, but it would just seem extremely difficult, especially for those who don't believe it's important to follow their mineral intake.

One thing I can do is try to remind people that if 80-10-10 doesn't work for them, nuts and seeds are not poison, they are beneficial, and they can help round out a perhaps otherwise deficient raw vegan diet.

I think it may be helpful for some of us to hear your experience with 80-10-10, but I'm not the monitor. You might get deleted. If you decide to go into more detail about your personal experience with that particular raw vegan diet, please remember to leave out any reference to certain items in your current diet. And try to reference only YOUR experience, rather than project about anybody else. Thanks.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2011 10:16PM by suncloud.

just quit kid hierarchy is ass. there is no obligation.

deserve thinking leads to tragic happenstances and perpetatures the patter with those you oppose you see the same between durianrider and all the people who make videos against eachother.
"A statement combining a moralistic judgment and deserve thinking is typical in our present retributive justice system "durianrider and those who moderate for him did something wrong and deserves to be punished," in contrast to restorative justice.
[www.thesunmagazine.org]
"All human beings have
the same needs. when our
consciousness is focused on
what’s alive in us, we never
see an alien being in front
of us. other people may have
different strategies for
meeting their needs, but
they are not aliens."
Domination systems believe that the people in positions of judgment, power and authority have the right to punish or hurt others because they believe they "deserve" it, but really, it is just their way of using their positions of power and authority for their own benefit."


free yourself as you please. there is no GOT TO. "expression was used by Nazi officials to describe a bureaucratic language that denies choice "you deny responsibility for your actions. So if anybody says, 'Why did you do it?' you say, 'I had to.' 'Why did you have to?' 'Superiors' orders. Company policy. It's the law.'"" If you say to yourself, "I 'troll' hunt, because I am an troll hunting addicted," your self-talk is a combination of Amtssprache and a moralistic judgment because you are denying responsibility for your choices by labeling yourself as an 'troll hunter', a kind of tautological self-fulfilling prophesy. Domination systems want to fool you and trick you into believing you are free, yet have you all the while serving them. In actuality, "You are free, but you just don't know it!"and this topic is the subject of my webpage on [www.noogenesis.com]


suncloud yes i grew up on needs and seeds. the brain is made up of the same omega-3 and the studies show it has a cognitive effect thus the problems with freelees shortsighted mind. (un-derfed/nourished)




life vs lifelessness

[www.scribd.com]

life vs lifelessness

My experience with 8/1/1 is simple. The diet was slowly causing more and more fear and social anxiety, but it wasn't until I started eating mostly just apples and pears (and basically nothing else) that my teeth starting becoming ridiculously sensitive. I started eating spinach to counteract this, and it worked, but it didn't stop the TREMENDOUS social anxiety. It was crippling. I couldn't function, I couldn't work, I could barely be around anyone at all.

The longer-term 8/1/1-ers know that you can't get by on cold-weather fruits, particularly the watery ones, for very long at all. You have to eat mostly tropical, non-water fruits like durian and banana to make it work. And guess what? You're still starving your brain of fat, and slowly, slowly creating semi-permanent or permanent neurological damage.

I was actually lucky--I could have limped along for months or years on 8/1/1, but the apples/pears diet cured me of it.

I didn't even quit that diet because it wasn't working--I actually just happened to go back to Costa Rica for 3 months, and lived on coconuts and mangoes there. I observed how good the coconuts were for my teeth. The mangoes eroded them, and the coconuts built them back up, every day. Mangoes for breakfast, coconuts for lunch.

After that, I realized that fat was far more important that Dr. Graham says. A few months later, I read Dr Price's book and discovered that the tribes that ate the most fat generally had the best teeth.

I made the connection between the extra cavities and crooked teeth that the heavy-carb-eating tribes had, and the tooth problems that most fruitarians have, and I realized that something was deeply wrong.

Teeth matter. A diet that doesn't support them isn't a smart/safe one...in my view.

When I took a fasting on coconut water I noticed my teeth became very sensitive so I can imagine the same thing may happen eating only fruits....

As far as DRider goes - I find his dedication to raw foodism admirable in one way but mostly think he's quite obnoxious as most people here feel - but since everyone knows his posts are just going to be links to his videos, the easiest thing seems to be just to ignore them (ie not open that thread and not comment)....then there's no big problem...

pictures or it didn't happen

life vs lifelessness

That was a great post suncloud, I know how the body can synthesise some fats, even cholesterol, but I didn't know about those two other fats.

Cheers,
geo

I agree Geo - Suncloud's posts are always worth reading. Her long experience of the raw food diet make her contributions very valuble.

Thanks Suncloud

cherimoya_kid,

None of us here would eat just one or two kinds of fruit indefinitely, and Graham does not recommend this--to the contrary! Also, he does recommend some nuts and seeds in the recipes of his book. Eating the way you did, you developed symptoms of deficiency and you adjusted your diet by instinct when you noticed the specific healing effects of certain foods on your biology. I think most people posting here, as opposed to 30 Bananers, do not follow 80/10/10 fastidiously; we tweak things here and there, from day to day, to find the variety of foods that best nourishes us. The main distinction between us and your forumees is that most of us draw the line at resorting to animal products to correct inconsistencies in our respective variants of 80/10/10.

I any case, I am glad you found your way to a regimen that works for you

I'm going to agree that the extreme low-fat of "80/10/10" really messed me up, as well. Fruit is good... but too much and you end up like Durianrider.
We should all keep a totally open mind when it comes to dietary changes.

the harley durian rider diet is extremist certainly and it does not seem to be doug graham's all the more reason they ban so many raw people and feel threatened? all the more reason he thinks it is ok to judge people and to slander them, and gets sued being so offensive /defensive.

hah

i love it here

life vs lifelessness

with all due respect, it sounds like you needed a therapist or friend to vent to, but a random group of strangers and griping about vegans on a vegan forum? maybe you need a hug or something? i don't know. but the post is very odd. and also how you gripe about LFRV later on and the merits of veganism (or not, so you believe) later on, on pages 2 and 3, to me, reveals your true intent. this is not the forum for arguing the merits of veganism. this is a sanctuary for those of us living a cruelty-free lifestyle. if your post hasn't been reported yet and you are still a member, kindly do not discuss your anti-vegan views. i'm sure you have friends on your own forum for that, or family or whatever. thank you!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2011 02:58AM by Utopian Life.

Well yeah, you busted us. We are like Durian Rider's groupies and we do his bidding...