this is interesting - [www.independent.co.uk]

These people have never heard of greens and fruit, nuts, and seeds?

Quote from article: Calcium

Found in dairy products, this is essential for strong bones. It is often lacking in a vegan diet unless taken as supplement.

although i dont doubt she somehow malnourished her kids as she stated this was the case , we really dont know what their diet consisted of as it doesnt state that , so who knows what restrictions she faced.

i found it interesting that she kept saying her kids were 2x smaller in clothing size etc to others their age .. perhaps they were a bit smaller but the *NORMAL* is quite a bit larger than normal these days

also if the woman just suddenly noticed holes in her kids teeth would leave me to think she was paying much attention to their overall health .. holes in teeth enough to be seen would take a bit of time to manifest i think

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2009 10:16PM by Jgunn.

The article said that the mom was binging on rice cakes and butter!?

We have no idea what this family was eating.

It sounds like animal product propaganda without any real proof to back it up.



Her daughter was wanting to eat sticks of butter? I can't imagine how her kids got so sick on a new diet and she was oblivious for any amount of time, let alone three years.

When I started changing my kids diet I studied every little thing about their health, from their moods to their hair to their @#$%&! LOL!

"she was paying much attention" should have been she WASNT paying much attention

lol oops !

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

This is awful, but, and pardon my bile here, is it veganism's fault this woman didn't know what she was doing? [sigh]It is constantly exasperating to me that things like, "Scottish vegan girl admitted to hospital with rickets!" always hit the presses, but one never hears a hue and a cry over the thousands of lardy tots driven directly to diabetes mellitus by their "loving" but utterly stupid parents! What is WRONG with people?!

I wonder what Shazzola has to say about this?--off to her Mupdate, or Twlog or whatever she's calling it these days . . .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2009 11:01PM by Tamukha.

The article says the kids ate lots of raw grains, soya, and pulses; foods very hard to digest raw, and full of anti-nutrients. Eaten along with nuts and seeds and dried fruit, they can mess people up, as can binging on rice cakes and butter and yoying between diets extremely high in cancerous animal fat/protein. Vegans who don't eat much destructive raw foods and who don't have borderline eating disorders have a lot more success than this person, whose story has nothing to do with veganism. She says at one point they were all in great health and never got sick but that still 'something was missing,' so I guess instead of finding it in her life, she found a way to bring the missing sickness back.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2009 11:28PM by wild-aloe.

She has a website called giveittomeraw. I looked around to see if there was anything there about her switching diets, and I didn't see anything. I don't get it.

>b...ut one never hears a hue and a cry over the thousands of lardy tots driven directly to diabetes mellitus by their "loving" but utterly stupid parents! What is WRONG with people?!L<

Amen, Tamukha! It's incredibly annoying, this crazy, doped-up and brainwashed society we live in.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

theres 30 pages of discussions with Holly here [www.giveittomeraw.com]

its quite a read so set aside some time lol

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

There should be some articles in mainstream newspapers about very healthy, content raw vegans who know they are getting all the nutrients they need and who are moving forward. And if it were deemed newsworthy every time a meat-eating kid had a cavity, or seemed unhealthy? I wonder how harassed they would feel if the media were run by vegans and we blamed every single possible thing on meat-eating and constantly accused them of being irresponsible, stupid 'nuts' for feeding their kids like that.

[i.dailymail.co.uk]

That woman is my age and she looks about 15 years older. Maybe 20.

Whatever she was doing, it probably wasn't all that healthy. But I doubt that what she is doing now is significantly healthier.

You know, it just goes to show that you only need to have sex (or implanted in some way) to have children. You don't have to be intelligent to have children. I'm not saying this person is stupid.....but she definitely does seem immature in the way she wants to get the last word and make comments that are anti-vegan. I don't care whether she is pro-vegan or not; I just wish she would say something intelligent and intelligible.

There's an inverse correlation for education and fecundity in women.

Edcuation level, average # of kids
Less than HS 3.14
HS only 2.64
Some college, no BA 2.44
Bachelor's only 1.92
Graduate education 1.63

I agree with the article in the first post, it isn't possible to be vegan in the winter if you live above a certain latitude, because Vitamin D has to be supplemented and it comes from foods such as egg yolks and fatty fish. Even people who think they're vegan, if they eat fortified cereal, they're not really vegan because that Vitamin D supplement is fish oil in the cereal.

Given the importance of vitamin D for calcium absorption, I think we can safely say that the natural ancestral ideal and healthiest diet has always had to include eggs & fish, at least in the winter, for those humans living above 40 degrees latitude where the skin cannot produce vitamin D from the winter sun.

Now if you live in Florida, then yeah, that's another story. Raw vegan is probably do-able year-round there.

But not in the UK, no way.

Well, somehow, in the UK, we seem to be managing, sunshine79. My good friend Chang-Yu has brought up her children raw vegan, unsupplemented. They're now five and three.

I've been no eggs or fish for the last two years and have been 100% raw vegan through the last winter (and I had a bone density test a few months ago, and it was fine). Vitamin D doesn't have to be supplemented. The whole Vitamin D thing is VERY debatable. Even in the UK, we get plenty of sunshine - we just need to arrange our lives and have the self-discipline to get out in it a bit more! I will not be getting my Vitamin D from a bottle.

Having said this, flipperjan wasn't to know, but the subject of Holly and her children has been discussed ad nauseum in the past. Holly was pretty much burnt at the stake for this article by vegans on various forums.

Holly is a thoughtful AND intelligent woman who had concerns about her children's development and made links with aspects of their diet. Now, she could have been right, she could have been wrong. She switched to raw vegetarianism rather than raw veganism (OK, plus a bit of fish). Note as far as I understand it she wasn't into giving them a host of supplements. Shazzie has raised Evie on raw vegan food plus eggs plus supplements. And many are successfully raising their children raw vegan unsupplemented. Diff'rent strokes.

I can understand the feelings of vegans who say that this sort of media coverage can make it harder for those wishing to bring their children up vegan, but...I felt the public villification of Holly went too far a year ago, and I very much hope that it's not going to all start up again here. Shazzie was attacked similarly for saying children shouldn't be brought up raw vegan unsupplemented. You could say that both these mothers put themselves in the firing line by being so vocal about what they felt, but they only did so out of love, out of genuine concern for others.

If this thread does continue, it would be great if those who do feel Holly drew incorrect conclusions could simply explain why, adding to the 'pool of knowledge' rather than making the personal attacks that characterised the negative, enervating, giveittomeraw.com forum thread.

i dont think she drew the wrong conclusions regarding her children , i just think her article is seriously lacking in content , she admits the interview for the article was only 45 minutes , so really how much content can someone get about someones life in 45 minutes.

i think its just one of those types of articles that non vegans just love to jump on and rub in people (vegans) faces and say see! SEE ! the headline alone is sensationalist. Im not saying she got what she deserved ..honestly her blog way back to 2003 states what she eats and does and she never made any false premise that she was 100% vegan.

and i still dont see how someone just suddenly notices their kids teeth are full of holes , to me that smacks of neglect

my 2 cents

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2009 06:27AM by Jgunn.

Also, human metabolism at the genetic level can adapt and change quickly, and that's probably true of I any migratory animal. For instance, certain humans developed the enzyme to break down starches such as rice (the ones who migrated East to Asia), other groups developed the enzyme to break down dairy (the ones who migrated North to Northern Europe), others the enzyme to break down alcohol.

I do wonder about the protein question, though. I believe the ideal diet should start from a raw vegan starting point, and be modified slightly if necessary to accomodate for individual metabolic needs. So even if you find you have to eat eggs and fish in the winter, it'll probably be small amounts, the way our ancestors would have done.

I also wonder, if along with that vitamin D requirement that Northern European humans had to get from eggs & fish in the winter, did their metabolisms also adapt to need THOSE PARTICULAR foods in the diet?? Those are very nutrient dense foods. And I guess we can extrapolate that if eggs were being consumed then along with it, chicken was as well.

And I found it interesting that Paige seemed to crave dairy, as well - noting that she lives in the area where humans adapted to dairy... what I wonder is, that along with metabolic adaptation, does it then follow that there develops a metabolic NEED?

i wonder these things too sunshine

i also wonder why on earth any migratory human beings would choose to live inthe arctic circle rather than migrate south to easier pickings

but i digress its probably for another topic

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Debbietook, I did 2 years raw vegan in a Northern climate as well but could not do 3 - I started having weird bone injuries which was alarming to me as I have an athletic, larger frame and am not at all frail. So I did some research being that I was bed-ridden and all, and the light bulb went on in my head with the vitamin D/eggs/fish thing.

And again, most vegans who eat cooked food are NOT VEGAN if they eat fortified cereal or soy milk etc.

So why not strive for the most ideal, holistic diet that Nature intended for us, rather than dogma. We don't have to be ALL OR NOTHING, vegan or raw or whatever, I mean how stupid is it to be all rigid about these things rather than a lifestyle of moderation.

Sunshine, you are entitled to your opinions, and I can see that they seem quite logical based on your experience.

I am not certain that I am right, but my views are based on observation of healthy raw vegans I know, and common-sense (although obviously that is subjective).

To reiterate, in case my point was not clear, we can all get lots more Vitamin D if we get out in the sun more. Simple as that. For example, in the UK it's now 11 am in April. The sun has been shining for four hours. Most raw vegans in the UK will not have even stepped outside. Many (like me right now!) will have spent most of the time on their computers. The amount of Vitamin D those in northern climates get is, in my opinion, due to a lifestyle choice.

That is how, in MY OPINION (sorry to shout - no italics available), it is possible to be raw vegan (and, yes, 100%) in a northern climate and not to have to take a Vitamin D supplement.

You may believe that raw vegans in northern climates all need to take a Vitamin D supplement. I happen to believe that raw vegans may not need to if they get more of the sun that is available. You certainly appear to have suffered from lack of Vitamin D. Would it have been impossible for you to get more sun?

Anyhow, I'm not quite sure why you feel that that view/similar views is based on 'dogma' or is 'rigid', but perhaps I've misunderstood here and that paragraph was directed at other posts in the thread? Difficult to tell :-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2009 10:19AM by debbietook.

[ost vegans who eat cooked food are NOT VEGAN if they eat fortified cereal or soy milk etc. ]

No, this is not strictly true, it depends on the cereal or milk alternative. All you have to do is read the label. I don't eat breakfast cereals but my milk alternatives are definitely vegan.

I don't know how many vegans you actually know, Sunshine79, but every single vegan I know or talk to (hundreds) look up where sources of vitamins are in their cereals if they eat cooked food. I'd guess that I have a better idea, considering I'm an ethical vegan and speak freely with other vegans, befriend many of them.

Also, Sunshine79, maybe you don't understand veganism very well, but few of us would consider it "rigid" "stupid" or "dogmatic" or anything of that sort; we care about other animals equally and think they should be given equal consideration, which means that we would not take their life just for our pleasure or convenience. It's probably the smartest way of life I could have chosen; I have integrity with who I am and I'm so much happier.

Now, if one's integrity includes taking other lives/harming others, fine, then they will obviously be happy with themselves living that life, but that's not my life, and I won't have you call it stupid.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2009 02:13PM by Utopian Life.

After hearing the "natural" eating eggs as opposed to supplementing thought years ago, I checked chicken feed ingredients and found the supplements added to that to be very interesting.....so much for "natural"! People don't seem to think of that, though. I wonder what fish feed has added in that you're getting.....

Arugula wrote:

<<<<There's an inverse correlation for education and fecundity in women.

< Edcuation level, average # of kids
< Less than HS 3.14
< HS only 2.64
< Some college, no BA 2.44
< Bachelor's only 1.92
< Graduate education 1.63

I would think that woman who are pursuing a higher formal eduacation and/or career would choose to have less children. It makes since and is better for everyone in society.

Women can be intelligent and make good choices for their children even if, sometimes even because, they haven't spent the time or money to get a formal education.

My posts were deleted by the moderator on the site give it to me raw. Holly somehow managed to convince people she was being attacked but if you read carefully there is no attack, only those that do not agree, and had a different view. I couldn't care aless whether she is vegan or not vegan only that I don't agree with her version as I witnessed it at the time that vegan made them ill, as she was very extreme raw vegan right after after giving birth too two children I felt she may have been depleted rather than vegan itself, the article didn't mention raw vegan, just vegan and I felt that was relevant. She struck me as very ocd with it at the time, and insisted others were wrecking their health if they did not do raw vegan but decided when she was not raw vegan everyone was wrecking their health there too, well at least with me she did, and others I witnessed. She called people vegan brainwashed mind controllers if they did not agree with her and said they were attacking her..

The thread was originally 45 pages long and is now only 30 as many posts were deleted including some of holly's most abusive, so it is impossible to follow

In fact the only attack sthat occured in the ones made on me by Holly and partner Karl implying I made my children ill on raw vegan when infact my eldest son became ill as a result of MMR vaccine when he went into a coma within hours,and he was not raw vegan at the time. That is pretty attacking actually. He is fine now though.

This article was done around the time there were journalists scanning forums looking for people that had not done well on raw vegan as it was being used to fuel the media hype on the vegan child who had rickets.

Here is another link on a take on the article [vegpage.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2009 04:04PM by Ariel55.

I meant to add she also convinced shazzie that people had damaged their children on raw vegan and that she had been attacked, hence shazzies article on raw vegan children, and there is another well known raw vegan (no longer) they refer too as having made her child retarded, I think the person is oblivious it is her they refer too.

I don't care whether people are vegan are not I just care when they spout untrue stuff to back up their own belief systems. I did not see holes in her children's teeth shortly before they decided not to do raw vegan as she didn't wish to constinue which i supported at the time, Maybe vegan wasn't right for her that is fine but I don't think the article is accurate as to why.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2009 04:23PM by Ariel55.

From all that i have read during my short relationship with the raw vegan diet (18months) it is quite easy to not succeed.

I try to evaluate everything i read with an open mind and try to absorb the facts as i see them. It seems to me that people succeed best with a high fruit, low fat diet with plenty of green stuff.

This diet, i would imagine, could be quite difficult to give to a child in sufficient quantities for optimum health. As i understand the matter, one can fill up on fatty foods such as nuts and for children puddings made with raw cocoa and many dried fruits. This must result in not enough greens and fresh fruit in the daily diet. This would also add to the problem of dental problems. Adding all kinds of supplements to this type of diet is not going to overcome the lack of fresh, raw fruit and vegetables.

Having said all this I am glad that I am not trying to raise raw vegan children - it must be a worry unless you have been living this lifestyle successfully your self for years and years with other supportive and experienced friends.

Quote from the article:
"But despite taking a daily supplement that included vitamin D and B12, she and the children were suffering."

There's yer problem . . . too much vitamin D has about the same effect on the bones as too little vitamin D.

There have been other people who claim that their health failed on various diets, I wonder if these "failed attempts" at fruitarianism and raw food could actually have been caused by the supplements and vitamins that the people took, rather than the diet itself. Interesting.

[books.google.com]
"Too much or too little vitamin D results in bone softening, in the case of vitamin D toxicity, calcium is removed from bones and deposited in soft tissue where it normally belongs in very small amounts. This unwanted soft tissue deposition can result in arthritislike pain and kidney damage."

American Dietetic Association complete food and nutrition guide
[books.google.com]
"Because fat-soluble vitamins (A, D, E, K) are stored in the body, taking high levels of some for a prolonged time can be toxic. For example, excess amounts of vitamin D can cause kidney damage and reduced bone density."



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2009 06:36PM by tropical.