Let us try to arrive at an understanding of hunger by seeing what it is not. Headache is not hunger. Pain in the abdomen is not hunger. Gnawing in the stomach is not hunger. Lassitude is not hunger. Drowsiness is not hunger. Weakness is not hunger. Faintness is not hunger. A "dull pressing sensation" is not hunger. Restlessness is not hunger. In thirty years of conducting fasts, during which time I have conducted thousands of fasts that have extended over periods that have ranged from twenty days to sixty-eight days, I have yet to see a single individual in whom pain, headache, drowsiness, a "feeling of emptiness," etc., accompanied the development of genuine hunger. These observations should be worth something. They are certainly more dependable than those that are made on individuals abstaining from food for three to five days.

Neither the all-gone, faint feeling, nor the sensation of gnawing in the stomach, nor a feeling of emptiness, nor of weakness, nor a headache, nor any other morbid symptom is hunger. These are morbid sensations representing gastric irritation, a neurosis, gastric ulcer, indigestion, gastric catarrh, reaction from withdrawal of stimulation, etc., rather than hunger. That faint sinking feeling at the pit of the stomach, with a morbid "craving" for something to eat, is due to catarrhal inflammation of the lining membrane of the stomach. Such symptoms of gnawing and faintness and all-goneness are seen in their height in cases of acute gastritis as well as in gastric ulcer. Indeed, a bowel movement may induce them in cases of colitis. There is no end to these morbid sensations that are mistaken for hunger, although the surest and speediest means of getting rid of them is to fast.

Think of thirst. Is it pain? Is it a headache? Is it irritability? Is it faintness? Is it drowsiness? Is it any of the sensations described by Prof. Cannon as belonging to hunger? It is none of these things. Thirst is felt in the mouth and throat and there is a distinct and conscious desire for water. One does not mistake headache for thirst. The sensation of thirst is too well-known.

Genuine hunger, too, is felt in the mouth and throat. In real hunger there is a distinct and conscious desire for food. The condition is one of comfort, not of discomfort and suffering. There is a "watering" of the mouth (flow of saliva) and often a distinct desire for a particular food. Hunger is a localized sensation and is not in the stomach. The healthy person is not conscious of any sensations in or about the stomach when hungry.

As most men and women, including scientists, declare that hunger is always felt in the stomach, therefore, the "stomach hunger" must be normal, it has been argued that to take the view that normal hunger is manifested in the mouth and throat, we must be prepared to take the position that most men and women have never experienced normal hunger since infancy. This is precisely what we contend. Mr. Carrington says: "most persons have never experienced normal hunger in all their lives! Their appetite and taste are perverted by overfeeding in infancy, and have never had a chance to become normal during the whole course of their lives--owing to the overfeeding being continued ever since." Dewey pointed out that with many people the "evil work" of inducing disease began with the very first meal which was forced upon them by the mother or nurse before they were ready for it. As the forcing process was continued, he says "in due time trouble began," and, thereafter, every outcry of nature was interpreted as a signal of hunger." He says that the meals of the infant "all through the first year of life are regulated by the tunes of crying." Happily, the so-frequent feeding of infants is not as common today as when Dr. Dewey wrote these lines, but it is still all too true that gastric impairment and gastric distress are built in infancy by wrong feeding.


shelton

I do think that hunger is not always hunger in some people; i don't know if it's due to over feeding when they were little, though. Though it could be. I think maybe overeating has more to do with an obsessive disorder in the brain. Maybe thinking you have to get more and more of something until you can't stand it anymore is more of a brain problem, you know? Taste is something connected to brain, and when one is uncontrollable it will effect the other. Maybe it was the type of feeding that went on in infancy or an inherited trait perhaps. You definitely have some good points worth discussing.

Hunger for me is still confusing, I think. I agree that I never can recall when I feel hunger in my stomach...it is definitely a throat and mouth thing, and yeah, it's smart to crave for a certain kind of food But I think a smart thing to do would be to not let yourself get toooo hungry. It's kind of like common sense to eat so that you don't end up feeling starved, just like it makes sense to drink before you ever feel parched. You could probably overdo both if you aren't thinking!

Goodness.
Great topic.
I wish I could say I only ever eat for hunger,but I would say a good 50% of my eating is simply to enjoy....eating.
I am seeing its WHAT you eat thats the crucial matter
All I know is that if I go any more than about 8 hrs during waking hours without eating,I get that "swimmy,lightheaded" feeling.

Brian



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2008 04:49PM by Raw1228.

Why not at least comment on your own subject instead of a massive C&P job?

>Why not at least comment on your own subject instead of a massive C&P job?

massive? herbert shelton wrote a whole library full of books. you have a problem with my little snippet designed to promote discussion, or a need to tell others what to do?

anyway,
i am in the process of an experiment in searching for true hunger and will report when done, similar to my recent calorie study.

In my opinion there's no such thing as hunger, only thirst....

Be good

RB

interesting, but i think when people fast, they drink water, and then at some point, they experience something that tells them to eat.

can't be thirst, because they're already drinking water.

You mean this isn't Fresh???-- "In thirty years of conducting fasts, during which time I have conducted thousands of fasts that have extended over periods that have ranged from twenty days to sixty-eight days,..."

I had no idea this was a C&P job. Thought it was based on Fresh's personal experience.

I laughed when I read this from Fresh's second post, "you have a problem with my little snippet designed to promote discussion, or a need to tell others what to do? " because there are few people on this site with greater propensity for telling others what to do than Fresh.

questioning concepts is not telling people what to do unless it is taken personally

saying why not comment on it is telling what to do
as is making a big deal out of c and p.

it said shelton on the bottom, certainly it could have been clearer, but perhaps people could have considered why it said shelton on the bottom?

The truest hunger I have ever experienced happens at the end of a water fast when a desire for food returns and the fast is ended. For me that is usually somewhere after about 3 weeks or more when the vitamin c reserves are depleted.

*fresh Wrote: "interesting, but i think when people fast, they drink water, and then at some point, they experience something that tells them to eat. can't be thirst, because they're already drinking water".

---in a fast you drink water only IF true thirst is present, that is the meaning with fasting in a first place. - to let your body rest without enervating it, so that it can heal and recover itself back in to its natural original by nature state of perfect balance and health.
if you force your body to drink water, while it is not asking for it, you are enervating your body, and obstructing and delaying its healing and recovery.
sometimes "healing fast" is called a "complete fast", or a "dry fast", but the same rule is always valid, you neither eat or drink if and when your body does not require it.
(- all according to Natural Hygiene's Law of Life, and Dr. Herbert Shelton's experience and observation based on countless fasting procedures).
then, there are so called "water fast" and "juice fast" which more correctly should be named: "water feast" and "juice feast" because your body is still feasting and working upon substances ingested, in contrary to when under conditions of a complete fast and rest without outside intervention.


*richard blackman wrote: "In my opinion there's no such thing as hunger, only thirst....".

---i like how you think richard...
when one learns to live with healing fasts and moderate feasting on liquids, such as fresh juice from fresh sun ripe organic fruits, which are the best quality and biovailability water source available, one might well feel the thirst instead of a hunger...





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2008 12:14AM by justin1.

food is totally emotional. maybe we are meant to not eat ate all.

richard blackman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In my opinion there's no such thing as hunger,
> only thirst....
>
> Be good
>
> RB

When I forget to feed my cats they remind me about hungry (same thing if my daughter doesn't get responded to quickly enough).

If you do nothing but drink water you'll die in approximately 80-100something days.

*communitybuilder Wrote: "If you do nothing but drink water you'll die in approximately 80-100something days."

---not true:
"Hira Ratan Manek (HRM), amongst others, have proven that a person can live just on solar energy for very long periods without eating any food. This has come to be known as the HRM phenomenon. Since June 18th, 1995, HRM has and continues to live only on sun energy and water. Occasionally, for hospitality and social purposes, he drinks tea, coffee and buttermilk. Until now, he had three strict fastings, during which he had just sun energy and water and was under the control and observation of a team of medical doctors. The first of these fasting lasted for 211 days during 1995-96. This was followed by a 411 day fast in Ahmedabad in 2000-01. The third one was for 130 days in USA in 2002."

Quote

Until now, he had three strict fastings, during which he had just sun energy and water and was under the control and observation of a team of medical doctors

Source please.

Note : his own website doesn't count.

Surely if the man was actually studied by a team of doctors there would be a record of it.

IMO, those who think hunger doesn't exist have a moral obligation to goto parts of the world where people are starving & teach these magical techniques.

If you can save just one person by helping them understand they don't really have to be hungry you'll have made a world of difference.

i do not agree that food is only emotional; it's important for survival, and something like that would not be based on emotion

anything can be based on emotions if you make it so

Good to see the Shelton passage again, Fresh. It is of course interesting when one has been raw for a while and understands what 'hunger' is to hear even raw foodists say 'we should only eat when we're hungry', as, in practice, what on earth does that mean?

I think most of my eating is for pleasure.

I pick up a sweet cherimoya neither because I'm 'hungry', nor for its nutritive value. I eat it because it tastes delicious!

Yeah, things SHOULD taste delicious; it's a part of enjoying life, I think

and eating is such a world wide thing...so relatable..incorporating so many senses..it's great

In my opinion, we can all do and eat what we want, there's no rules but there should be better judgement, people will have their own opinions on this and will eat what they want and will probably get away with it for many, many years but I think we humans abuse our gift of taste and we have conditioned ourselves to let pleasure seeking and sweet foods take control of our mental and physical state, you only have to look at how we are losing the battle against obesity to see that, now I'm all for people enjoying themselves but as far as I know and I could be wrong, we are the only animal that eats and has sex for pleasure and at random, after all most of us know that too much food and too much sex will eventually leave you feeling less than optimal but again most people know this and do it anyway to the point where feeling less than vibrant is the norm and is expected.

We manufacture our own food and add flavourings/chemicals and even hormones to it to change the taste/appearance so it is more pleasing to the eye/taste buds, none of which has anything at all to do with nutrition or true hunger, it's all about taste and in some instances, economics and the same goes for raw gourmet foods too and we have conditioned ourselves to eat way past our cut off point because we are so focused on the sensation of taste.

Just because fruits are sweet doesn't mean that it's natural for us to ignore our built in senses and eat bucket loads of it or it's even our natural food,heck we can eat cooked foods for years and get away with it, to me it simply means that the fruit has a natural adgenda and that is to tempt any animal to eat and spread the seeds in the same way a flower attracts the bee and there's nothing at all wrong with that and there's nothing wrong with someone wanting to taste something delicious for their own enjoyment because like I say, there's no rules and people can do what ever they want, I'm just sharing my view point from where I'm at just like anybody else.

But take a look at water.....water has no taste at all but look at how important it is and look at how it has no taste yet can satify any thirst....also unless you have an underlying issue it's extremely hard to drink too much water because again...it has no taste, so your not being fooled, tricked, tempted or teased into anything, so there's a greater chance that if you do drink it you are drinking it because you genuinely need it, plain and simple. I think when you can understand your need for water you can understand what true hunger is because when you can naturally desire something that has no taste then to me that's real need. There is so much more to just plain water than we can imagine but because it has no taste most of us don't give it any attention.

Just my 2 cents

RB





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2008 04:02PM by richard blackman.

hey richard, look up bonobo monkeys; they pretty much sex it up when they're bored, and when they get into arguments and want to "make up" ..for fun..pleasure. Yeah. And they're even more related to us then chimps, who are more fighters then lovers really. It's probably because they eat more fruit then chimps -- chimps will not mate unless there is fruit around. Just guessing the sugar might have something to do with it.

There are theories as to why a person would crave sweet food, and one I think is interesting is that we want quick energy when our bodies think they're starving. Some interesting experiments have been done with calorie-deficient men and the results were shocking. I think most of the people in america are depriving themselves of correct nutrition and because of their choices to try to stay thin, and when they fail or can't control their natural urges, they reach for what their instincts tell them, "Sugar! quick! anything to get up my glucose levels!" No matter what it is - boxed processed, this usually just means "quick". These people that were basically experimentally starved for days could noot stop eating when they were told they could eat again. Over 8000 calories, and the body wouldn't let them stop. They craved quick sugar, glycogen. So really, anything can throw off the senses and make things confusing.

In other cultures, food is much more then just appearance and taste. It's history, and a part of them, essentially. Most people are defined by what they eat and a lot of people are proud. We probably worship food so much because it was a way to connect to other people when man first began cooking, in a gigantic circle.

We do get a thirst for water if you're thirsty. But we know it's silly to wait until you're extremely thirsty. If you were given the choice to drink water or salt water, and you weren't thirsty, the obvious choice is, ok water...duh. But if you're on the edge of insanity from being so parched and surrounded by the ocean, that salt water is going to look pretty good, no matter how dehydrated it will make you. As for taste, the food you want to eat should taste good anytime. I think the aim should be to plan when to eat and keep satiated all the time so that you can regulate your metabolism, and your body will never think it's on the verge of starvation and trying to keep your fat deposits frantically. Or just an option of a possible way to think about eating, yeah. Because it used to be that one meal a day could be the only one for a week. It's nature.

i do not typically experience typical false hunger symptoms .

whatever hunger is though my experiment that lasted 3 days where i would wait until very strong urges arose was interesting.

i ended up eating average 700 calories per day.

energy was good but not high

my thought is that there is a continuum to hunger

and that waiting for true hunger will not result in a condition in which one will thrive as one will not be driven to eat enough.

now i was active, sometimes intensely and this will impact the equation as well.

while i have diverging thoughts here, at this time from my experience i think hungers purpose is from an evolutionary perspective a starvation preventative and therefore never eating until true/real hunger arises will result in undereating.

Ok...great, Bonobo Monkeys have sex at random too....so I'm guessing that the child birth rate is pretty high among them too, right?....because there is a reason behind sex but many people abuse it's purpose and use it as a means to feel good or get stimulated but it's not just for pleasure, which was the point of my previous post.

Like I say, this is just my opinion and really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things at the end of the day.

Take care and be good!

RB

Reading body signals can be tricky but gets easier with practice and a cleaner body. Static comes from cravings (addictions) and competing signals like thirst. I have found that a diet that is as pure as possible helps to clear static. I try to use my body signals as my coach to help me in my quest for ever better health. I also acknowledge that taste enters into decisions about what to eat and how much to eat. The brilliant taste of some really good simple, plain, fresh raw vegan food makes me think that for me that is what "gourmet" is.

iLIVE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hey richard, look up bonobo monkeys; they pretty
> much sex it up when they're bored, and when they
> get into arguments and want to "make up" ..for
> fun..pleasure. Yeah. And they're even more
> related to us then chimps, who are more fighters
> then lovers really. It's probably because they
> eat more fruit then chimps -- chimps will not mate
> unless there is fruit around. Just guessing the
> sugar might have something to do with it.
>
> There are theories as to why a person would crave
> sweet food, and one I think is interesting is that
> we want quick energy when our bodies think they're
> starving. Some interesting experiments have been
> done with calorie-deficient men and the results
> were shocking. I think most of the people in
> america are depriving themselves of correct
> nutrition and because of their choices to try to
> stay thin, and when they fail or can't control
> their natural urges, they reach for what their
> instincts tell them, "Sugar! quick! anything to
> get up my glucose levels!" No matter what it is -
> boxed processed, this usually just means "quick".
> These people that were basically experimentally
> starved for days could noot stop eating when they
> were told they could eat again. Over 8000
> calories, and the body wouldn't let them stop.
> They craved quick sugar, glycogen. So really,
> anything can throw off the senses and make things
> confusing.
>
> In other cultures, food is much more then just
> appearance and taste. It's history, and a part of
> them, essentially. Most people are defined by
> what they eat and a lot of people are proud. We
> probably worship food so much because it was a way
> to connect to other people when man first began
> cooking, in a gigantic circle.
>
> We do get a thirst for water if you're thirsty.
> But we know it's silly to wait until you're
> extremely thirsty. If you were given the choice
> to drink water or salt water, and you weren't
> thirsty, the obvious choice is, ok water...duh.
> But if you're on the edge of insanity from being
> so parched and surrounded by the ocean, that salt
> water is going to look pretty good, no matter how
> dehydrated it will make you. As for taste, the
> food you want to eat should taste good anytime. I
> think the aim should be to plan when to eat and
> keep satiated all the time so that you can
> regulate your metabolism, and your body will never
> think it's on the verge of starvation and trying
> to keep your fat deposits frantically. Or just an
> option of a possible way to think about eating,
> yeah. Because it used to be that one meal a day
> could be the only one for a week. It's nature.


Ok...great, Bonobo Monkeys have sex at random too....well... I haven't seen any Bonobo's in the checkout line at the store buying condoms and I don't think they practise the withdrawl method, then again I could be wrong, so I'm guessing that the child birth rate is pretty high among them too, right?....because there is a reason behind sex but many people ignore it's real purpose and use it as a means to feel good or get stimulated but it's not just for pleasure, it's for reproduction too but because of addictions, emotional issues or what ever reason we as a society we have a HISTORY of putting pleasure before functionality and have lost sight of the original purpose of most activities such as eating/drinking and sex to name a few, heck, we don't even know what true hunger is....ha,ha and this is just one reason out of many why I believe our society is suffering with various health issues which was the point of my previous post. We can debate this subject all day long but at the end of the day most of us are here because it's reached the point where your physical or mental health is suffering due to ignoring your senses in some way or another and we want to transition to the simpler raw lifestyle or we no longer felt "right".

Like I say, this is just an opinion/personal thought, we are all coming from different backgrounds, experiences and stages in life/diet so I'm not in anyway saying that I'm right or that my word is gospel, thanks for letting me share.

Take care and be good!

RB





Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2008 03:00PM by richard blackman.

richard, I totally respect your posts, so it's all good. It's another opinion I have to think about, just like I can give you my opinion; and we all stay modest.

Sure, people can get addicted to anything really. Our cortex's are huge, we have the most interesting brains and we are the most interesting species. I mean, look at all the human race has accomplished. Yes, it seems we could be destroying things as well, but nature has the same kind of thing going on. I think we should realize we don't have to be like nature and destroy what we fear or what comes easier. But everyone should have some amount of respect for people. I mean we are all people.

It seems like you're thinking in terms of everyone having problems with sex and drugs and food, etc. Addictions are terrible, yeah, but this is identifiable with a brain function, and not just diet. Just like certain people are born with a deformity or illness in their brain, it can probably be formed by experience and behavior as well. Just like negative thoughts can be obtained over positive ones in a persons whole view of thinking. Anyway, not everyone in the world has these problems. There are a lot of people saying the same thing people here are saying about their diets which could be the exact opposite of raw food. And it could just as well be making their lives much better. Also, pleasure is what pleasure is. Who doesn't want pleasure in their lives? Why should it not be first...most of the history books have romans doing some weeiird things for pleasure. I mean have you heard of their vomit pits? Theres kama sutra..haha. And all cultures have obviously accomplished different things. It's obvious most of america is doing something off, because we will end up even more obese and sick then we are today if we keep going. But it's also apparent that there are healthy people living in america; and there are healthy people all around the world. Not everyone in the world is like the states.
Anything over-used would not be pleasurable. An addiction to food is no longer pleasurable in life. Addiction to anything will create havoc in a body. Addiction to obsessing about health is not pleasurable, surely. So usually if someone is searching for pleasure, I think it's just being human! haha. And they make different results on the way, but our environment is very confusing in the fact that different ideas are always being shoved towards them and people just end up confused, and adding this to a daily life of a hectic person who hates their job will not fair out well in the long run for happiness.

People who look towards raw foods wish to find pleasure only in health; some health and taste..etc. There does not have to be sacrifice of pleasure if you really think about it.

Thanks for discussing with me; I probably have more to say but I'm so bad at putting my thoughts in order haha

Cool ilive....again in my opinion, if you seek "pleasure" to the point where you ignore your bodies original purpose than it becomes a habit or addiction that is less than optimal that will eventually compremise your health but as I said before and as you've already pointed out, people can and will...do whatever they want to, there's no right or wrong in my book, just choices...because at the end of the day none of what we think even matters in the grand scheme of things but what does matter is that we simply live and however you choose to do that is up to each individual. I'm coming from a totally different place, where I'm coming from there is no distinct pleasure, no peaks and lows, just middle ground and that's where I get to see the simplicity and beauty in what I do but I don't seek that beauty I just acknowledge it and move on and that's how I choose to live, I get to see and experience things differently, unfortunatly not many people are doing what I do so not many people understand what I'm even talking about, ha,ha.

Be good

RB





Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2008 03:53PM by richard blackman.

iLIVE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> It seems like you're thinking in terms of everyone
> having problems with sex and drugs and food, etc.
> Addictions are terrible,

Yes I do or else it wouldn't be a "problem", I don't want people to have to live with health "problems"




> Also, pleasure is what
> pleasure is. Who doesn't want pleasure in their
> lives? Why should it not be first...most of the
> history books have romans doing some weeiird
> things for pleasure. I mean have you heard of
> their vomit pits?

Exactly...a pleasure seeking habit that is taken to the point where it is less than optimal to your HEALTH, living or dying depends on your HEALTH. I'm not against "pleasure" or feeling good but you have to question the reasons behind it when it effects your health.

> So usually if someone is
> searching for pleasure, I think it's just being
> human! haha.

I think there's unlimited possibilities to being human, we have the power to strive for excellence and be the best we can be in health...mentally, physically and spiritually and we also have the power to destroy ourselves with our choices.

It was good discussing this with you iLIVE, now I'm gonna shud up 'n' train!!!!!

Be good

RB





Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2008 04:08PM by richard blackman.

I believe that, just as thirst is the body needing water, hunger is simply the body needing nourishment in the form of vitamins & minerals. We are simply conditioned by our SAD diet culture to believe its all about how we feel. Most of the sensations that I used to think of as hunger, I now understand are just cleansing, detoxing going on in my system. I do believe there is such a thing as hunger, but I do not believe its necessarily a feeling but a state of being.

hunger is a survival instinct; you get hungry when you are low in calories - energy; if you are getting the right kind of food in the right amounts at planned times, I think that is what should cause a person to be at the right weight with never the feeling of fatigue OR an overwhelming desire to stuff their face with any type of food or the feeling of a craving or offset in any way. hunger is just more complex then thirst, that's all. thirst = water, hunger = food; you should feel neither and always keep up to par so that your body knows it's not starving or dehydrating.

True.