How did she really pass away, I wonder.Because,while I was selling sprout and grass at one of my farmers market, a lady came up to me and told me that the AMA American Medical Association) killed her and she claimed the fire was cover up because she cured many illnesses with grass and sprouts. The lady told me Dr wigmore was helping her mother sue the AMA,that why her ended the way it did. I think I believe it because, if Dr. Wigmore was living foodist, why would died in a fire? It does not make sense to me.What do you think

[chetday.com]

Oh yes, before I forget, I promised a good conspiracy theory here. Some say that the fire that claimed Ann's life was deliberately set by agents of the new world odor in an attempt to cover up the fact that Ann, who was approx. 90 years old, was positively youthing! [Among other turn arounds in her health, Ann's gray hair returned to her natural color!] The theory here is that this program and information is so challenging to the existing medical power structure that Ann, the living miracle and proof of it's effectiveness, was rubbed out to cover up the evidence of the power of reclaiming your own health. However, those close to Ann assured me that was nonsense. Unfortunately, Ann was a brilliant, compassionate healer but a terrible electrician. Apparently, Ann had a bad habit of plugging far too many electric cords and power strips into a single electric outlet. The building in Boston that housed the old Hippocrates institute was an old converted mansion and badly in need of rewiring. The tragic result of these factors is the electrical fire that claimed Ann's life. It would be a discredit to Ann's memory and legacy to back away from the truth. As the old adage goes; Speak no ill of the dead. Amen.

I don't believe in the New World Order. They are all a bunch of fakes who want you to think they wield more power than they do.

Mark

Marcos

Go Vegan for your life, your health, the planet and, most importantly, the animals that we share this wonderful world with!

the only New World Order I have any knowlage in was a wrestling group with the ECW

Wasn't New World Order a heavy metal band in the 80's? Um..."Blue Monday"...

It sure was a track from KMFDM - I have the CD ri'cheer to prove it to myself...

true! true! I forgot about them! !

I thought the smurfs were the new world order!

No! it's digimon! ! ! Smurfs are tooo blue to rule! ! !

Dr. Flora lived and worked with Ann Wigmore for many years.

Here experiences are discussed in this eBook:

==> [www.therawdiet.com]
Conversations with Dr. Flora

She mentions the fire a couple times.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2006 03:05AM by Mike.

ha ha

new order isn t heavy metal

i LUVVVV blue monday

you can dance to it

but i think head banging would be a bit awkward


anyway

interesting thread

i m a sucker for a good conspiracy

maybe not metal, but an 80's band still. You are right, though. Not something to bang your head to.....

I took a seminar at Joy Lake near Reno taught by Ann Wigmore around 1987. She was in poor health and looked her age.

brome, can expand on Ann? I thought she died very healthy so it is a surprise to hear that she was in poor health. Was her hair gray too ?

Theres' an old blues song that comes to mind:

"You're gonna look like a monkey when you get old.."
or so the chorus goes.

Ann Wigmore probably lived a lot longer, a lot healthier, and a lot more on purpose and usefully on her raw and living food diet than she would have otherwise.

Ain't that enough?


Kathleen

Kathleen, it is not enough that Ann Wigmore lived a lot long longer, a lot healthier than she would have otherwise. This goes to the core of how good this raw food diet and life style is in the long run. We are talking about years and years of wheatgrass, colonics, energy soups, sprouts. If she was in poor health at the end of all of this, then it is very disturbing to some of us who are trying to follow this path.
Here is an article that discussing the long run benefit of a raw food diet. Read the heading VEGAN CENTENARIANS – WHERE ARE THEY?
[naturalhygienesociety.org]

I understand djatchi.

My point, which I tried to broach on another thread, is that it seems of paramount importance to have realistic and well-grounded expectations concerning the long-range benefits of a living and raw food diet.

Physicalimmortality, imho, is not realistic.
Jet black hair at 90 is not realistic (and kinda creepy)
Freedom from all grief, sorrow, pain and etc. merely from adopting a live food diet does not seem realistic.

Ann Wigmore may have looked 90 @ 90. Does this mean that her diet was a failure? Let's look at what she didn't have: alzheimers, dementia, hearing loss, loss of eyesight, instability on her pins, a frozen expression from plastic surgery, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, stroke and all the other diseases that render our elderly hopeless, useless, and discarded.

These seem goals well worth aiming for, forget the hair color!

In aligning with Nature we do not defy Her. No matter how many apples you eat you will still grow older in years and one day die. This is natural. You can submit to this process gracefully, usefully, with vitality, wisdom and strength by aligning with Nature, or you can be a victim of this process by damaging your body and mind by ignoring Her Laws; either way, you can't stop the process.

I do understand your concerns djatchi. I share them. I am constantly trying to articulate the motivation behind my desire to adopt this lifestyle. Is it motivated by fear? by reason? by a desire to break through a conventional mindset become numbing? or a need to just stop the madness of mindless consuming? or a need for greater vitality, enthusiasm, and general health?

Yes.

Kathleen

Instead of worrying abot getting older, we all will no matter what, lets think about the quailty of life we'll have on the journey. raw living foods will give you a far better quality of life in your advnced years than a regular SAD diet ever will!

Djatchi..
I understand how you feel. I feel the same way too. The problem is that I always hear someone tell me how a revered raw foodist experienced very average health. That to me says a whole lot. A good, unrefined, balanced vegan diet will ward off heart disease and many illnesses but I`m looking towards the raw vegan diet to give me that extra energy, extra vibrancy so if long term raw foodists experience only average health it does make one question.
I am very encouraged by Storm and Jinjee`s family tho-they keep me raw time and time again

djatchi,

I've had some time to look over the articles you recommended from the natural hygiene society. Some of these ARE disturbing and discouraging. I understand better now the point you were trying to make.

I'm as confused as ever.


~Kath

vegangoddess
I agree, Just like you, I am looking for a raw food diet system that will work now and also in the long run. I did go to Storm and Jinjee site and they seem to present a beautiful case a successful raw family.
I did not read much about Storm and Jinjee but the case for b12 they are talking about in this article raise some serious concerns. [www.rawveganforever.com]
Their explanation is not supported by evidence. Animals instinctively eat insects or other smaller organisms to get the b12 and other nutrients they need. Here is an observation of that fact. [naturalhygienesociety.org]
I read that the b12 reserve in the body can last for 20 to 30 years. So it may be that most of these strict raw fooders do well as long as they have the b12 reserve and problems manifest themselves later in their lives when the reserves are depleted and they refuse to take supplement or eat meat of fish. This could also imply that a raw food diet coupled with some small amount of meat, fish or raw egg could be very good in the long run. So I am looking into Dr. Wu diet which goes along that line. [www.qigong.com]

Although I don't expect to get to be very old without gray hair, I found djatchi's link very interesting about the average or less than average life spans of some of these earlier raw foodists.

It would be nice to try to figure out why they didn't live longer. Living into one's eighties or nineties is still pretty good, but some of these guys didn't make it to 60 even. And some, like Dr. Shelton, suffered severe debilitating diseases for years before they died. I got to wondering if these dietary gurus ate what seemed to them to be most natural and gave them energy, but maybe they didn't pay much attention to whether or not they were getting enough vitamins and minerals in their diets.

It appears from Dr. Shelton's writings that he didn't take B12. Several of the others seemed to follow more limited diets than Dr. Shelton, so it's possible that they were deficient in B12 as well as other vitamins and minerals. On the other hand, Chet Day (Health and Beyond) claims that Dr. Shelton was actually a lactovegetarian.

I wonder also about the level of physical activity. Paul Bragg was not a vegetarian, but he was physically very active, and seemed to live a healthy life until he died of an auto accident or a surfing accident when he was 81 (some say 94).

It's somewhat disturbing that Frieden Howard, who was raised a vegan and was a vegan all his life (except during college when he was a vegetarian) died recently at only 66. I wonder what was his level of physical activity.

When I first started doing raw food, I was very into the fruitarian thing, and believed that the prana or life-giving force in fruit, sunlight, and fresh air should be all that was needed. Nutrients meant nothing whatsoever to me. After several years vegan and mostly fruitarian, I experienced the effects of iron deficiency, and then several years later (after 15 years 100% vegan) of B12 deficiency. The iron deficiency disappeared after adding seeds to my diet. The B12 deficiency was corrected by adding a B12 supplement.

I guess I'm wondering if these folks could have lived longer as raw food vegans if they had given more credence to the benefits of a diet consisting of sufficient nutrients and if they had been more physically active.

I think I'd personally find it very difficult to start eating meat or dairy, but that's just me.

Best wishes, -Ally

Thanks Ally, it is very informative to hear from longtime vegeterian on issues they have faced and how they have solved them. We all learn from this.
I think that the addition of green leaves and green smoothies to the diet as popularized by Victoria Boutenko is a step in the right direction for raw foodist. Fruits and seeds are not enough.
I personally do not mind adding some raw dairy, or small amount of meat or fish to my diet. For some it is difficult to go that far may be on ethical or religious ground, I can understand.

Thanks djatchi,

I can see that I might have left the impression that I eat only fruits and seeds. Sorry about that. Fruits and nuts/seeds make up most of my diet, but I also eat salads with seaweed and the prepackaged (fresh) raw wheat germ.

I love the taste of raw greens, but I'm not a big smoothies fan. I like to chew. I've been reading lately that chewing not only helps digest food, but also strengthens the jaw - especially when chewing foods that are raw. A stronger jaw helps support stronger teeth (kind of like how excercise strengthens bones).

Best wishes everybody, -Ally



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2006 06:52PM by Ally.

The "small amount of meat or fish" will putrify in the digestive system, poisoning the body and the beneficial microflora one needs to digest raw foods.

I agree about the B12 and stuff. I`ve just ordered some supplements for myself. I don`t think meat is necessary if one is willing to take a supplement or two and include a wide variety of foods-lots of greens, some fruit, nuts, seeds, fat.. But that`s just me..
I guess we`re each on our journey and we do what works for us.

Good point Brome but if I am eating 99.99 percent raw food, raw juice and raw smoothies and my system cannot handle a little piece of fish then there is problem with the law of proportion. But I understand your point. My take on this is that we do not have enough proof that a 100 percent raw diet without supplements can go a long way and I am also concerned that the b12 supplement may not be the only missing nutrient. There may be others not discovered yet and I want to be on the safe side.

Let assume that B12 deficiency is inevitable on a 100% raw vegan diet after at most 20-30 years (as this is the maximum time our body can store B12; and raw vegan diet, presumably, does not supply B12).

Since Storm has been 100% raw vegan for about 35 years (he went raw at 22, and is 57 now, according to his website), he should have observed the signs of B12 deficiency long time ago. Since he has not, the assumption is false.

Gosia


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

How do we know if Storm is telling the whole truth and not just a marketing plot? We cannot ignore the evidence from countless of cases and assume that one single case is the proof. Storm story is very good to read, beautiful body, beautiful raw wife and kids, all is nice but let not forget that Storm site is a business, he trying to sell a product. For years we all thought that Ann Wigmore was the example of perfect health. But it was not.

I believe Storm and Jinjee-they are absolutely wonderful and sincere.

Also you can`t ever really "trust" anybody without giving them a bit of the benefit of the doubt, who knows? Even the people selling you supplements ( they are also a business remember?) might tell you they are healthy but they may end up causing more harm than good.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2006 02:04AM by vegangoddess.

Incorrect. If one knows logic, then one knows that ONE SINGLE counter-example is enough to disprove a false claim (or even a whole false theory). This type of proof is commonly used in mathematics and other sciences, and follows from basic laws in logic.

As far as suggesting that Storm is lying, this is a far-fetched claim. Note that Storm said explicitly that he could easily earn lots of money by selling supplements (which I think is a reasonable prediciton), yet he chooses not to, for moral reasons (see [www.rawveganforever.com]). In my opinion, the evidence to support the fact that Storm is telling the truth is overwhelming. So, the line of reasoning that you suggested is very weak indeed. Of course, if you have a proof that Storm is lying, do not hesitate to present it here.

Gosia


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2006 02:31AM by rawgosia.