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Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: debbietook ()
Date: April 06, 2009 03:37AM

Hi everyone

I've vacillated between raw vegetarian and raw vegan in the past, but raw vegan's been the order of the day for a while now.

But, what I'd like to know is whether there are any cultures in the world who are 100% vegan, rather than 99%.

Every time I look into this, every time someone says 'I've heard the So-and-so are vegan', when I research it I find it's not the case. There's always a little animal food creeping into their diet somewhere, be it the odd bit of fermented cheese, eggs, whatever. And, annoyingly, that 1% does matter, especially when we start discussing Vitamins D, B12 etc, as without that little bit of animal food we could easily say 'well, there's yer proof! They're thriving!'

Note, I'm not suggesting that just because there may not be one (to date), that vegan isn't the right way to go. For example, I believe all cultures have, to a greater or lesser extent, killed each other at times, and just because that's something common to all cultures doesn't make it the right thing to do.

And, of course, there are lots of healthy 100% vegans in our culture, unsupplemented, around. But...although there are a few that have been that way from birth, there still aren't that many (although numbers obviously growing!).

But it would be very helpful if someone could supply a link to information that says, categorically, that the 'x' people, living in wherever, are 100% vegan. Obviously there could be all sorts of pertinent factors, eg they'll be eating their plant foods unwashed, great soil, pristine environments etc, but...would still like to know.

Any takers?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2009 03:42AM by debbietook.

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: arugula ()
Date: April 06, 2009 07:28AM

The Tarahumara indians got about 95.6% of their calories from plants and their incidence of cardiovascular problems is about nil. But they don't live very long.

Calculations based on a typical day’s menu of an adult man: 500 g corn tortillas, 420 g cooked beans, 8 g sugar,150 g pinole (ground roasted corn), 30 g nopales (cactus), 30 g queites (gathered local plants), 15 g chili peppers, 30
g squash, 6 g shortening, 6 g lard, and 3 cups strong coffee. in addition, this includes 2 eggs per week, 3 to 4 ounces meat, poultry, or fish per week, and 1 cup whole milk per week.

They got about 120 calories a day from animal products out of a total 2818 average, or 4.4% of their calories.

The full paper is here (pdf)
[www.ajcn.org]

The Okinawan elders were around 5%, as are a few other longevity groups living in mountanous regions in Asia.

Also there was an Iranian cult group that got zero animal products, this is in one of the earlier Herbert Shelton B-12 papers. They survived by using humanure.

ref for this is
Herbert V. Vitamin B-12: plant sources, requirements, and assay. Am J Clin Nutr. 1988;48:852-8.

But nobody can verify anything about these people and the story is considered to be unsubstantiated.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2009 07:31AM by arugula.

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: davidzanemason ()
Date: April 06, 2009 07:34AM

I was thinking of 'Takers' and thought of Daniel Quinn...of course. Almost ALL tribal cultures of the past have been replaced with more modern totalitarian agricultural societies based on money and paying for food and land. Even though there are no cultures that are documented 100% peaceful....there is still an ideal there to strive for! smiling smiley

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: debbietook ()
Date: April 06, 2009 10:29AM

Apologies for my ignorance, David, but I'm not familiar with Daniel Quinn. Have had a quick google, and I see something about an 'Ishmael' society? Could this help re my query?

Arugula - many thanks for that,and the ref, although once again we have a people who are 'almost vegan', but not vegan. And suppose I should rephrase the question: anyone know of any vegan cultures who don't have any dairy, eggs or honey OR eat their own @#$%&? That is, the only animal products they consume would be tiny insects on their plant foods?

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: Utopian Life ()
Date: April 06, 2009 12:25PM

I wouldn't search for the word "vegan" if you're just talking about diet, since veganism is much more.

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: Jgunn ()
Date: April 06, 2009 12:43PM

from: [www.thehindubusinessline.com]

secret the Himalayas hold
Murli Menon

A trek in the Himalayan regions of Kargil and Leh... in search of the secret lives of a tribe that prides itself on being racially pure Aryan.







We were headed to the villages of Dah and Beema (pronounced Beama) in Leh district and Garkun and Darchik in Kargil district, and the intention was to spend a week studying the secret lives of a tribe of pure Aryans. Some of the more inaccessible pockets could be reached only through trekking.

We rose early and started our jeep safari at 7 a.m. The 130-km drive passed through the villages of Khalatse (pronounced Khalsi), Dumkhar, Skurbuchan, Achinathang and Hanuthang. We crossed several high peaks before reaching Beema (14,350 ft). Every photograph clicked en route resembled a picture postcard and the seven-hour drive over rugged terrain was made listening to some soothing music.

The first glimpse of the Indus, from miles away, was a near-spiritual experience. A speck of light blue amidst sand dunes, rock and stone. A stream nestling in Nature's palm. We finally arrived at Beema and took an ice-cold bath in the turbulent waters of this river steeped in history. The tranquility experienced while meditating on its banks, on a bed of round pebbles, is indescribable.

A group of women checked one's bags on alighting from the vehicle. There is a self-imposed prohibition in these Brok-Pa (Ladakhi word for Aryan or white skin) villages. The sarpanch had asked the womenfolk to ensure that no alcohol entered the village. After a thorough frisking of the luggage, the three women, resembling Greek goddesses, allowed entry into the PWD guesthouse. The chowkidar, named Sonam Thondup, was an Aryan who knew a smattering of Hindi. Through a combination of sign and body language, one tried to develop a rapport with the hostile chowkidar, who made it plain that my visit to Dah was not welcome.

On seeing the inner line permit and letter from the collector, Satish Nehru, Thondup reluctantly gave me the guesthouse keys. There were no other occupants. The guesthouse is on the banks of the Indus and the view from the room was picturesque. The gurgling of the river was soothing music to the ears.

The next morning, one had to report at the sarpanch's house for a purification ritual. This called for a 10-km trek over mountain streams, rock and stone. Thondup sent along two tough looking escorts. It took us almost two hours to reach Laisthiang — the sarpanch's village.

The landscape began to change and a canopy of green could be seen. Walnut and apricot trees stretched across the horizon and the fields were full of grain, ready to be harvested. The staple food is barley, grown in terraced fields and irrigated by the mountain streams that rush to meet the Indus flowing below. The ascent was rather steep and the altitude nearly 17,000 ft. One kept replenishing body fluids by drinking the natural mineral water of the mountain streams.

There are about 1,000 descendants of the Aryan tribes and they live scattered around Gilgit, Hunza, Kargil and Leh. Being nature worshippers, they celebrate the Bononah (nature) festival and are strict vegans, which means they are not only strictly vegetarian but also don't consume milk or milk products. This minuscule community bars both men and women from marrying non-Aryans, and polygamy and polyandry is common. Couples who do not conceive are free to choose other partners to give them a better chance of producing an offspring. Nearly 80 per cent of them marry in their own villages, while 20 per cent marry from neighbouring villages.

Two 500-year-old Juniper trees (Cilgi Deuha) crown the village of Dah, which is the venue of the tri-annual Bononah festival (held on a full moon night during October). The tribes symbolically draw energy from the ancient Juniper trees by hugging them after a ceremonial dance. They also worship the swastika symbol (clockwise) and the `Om' (symbolising energy).

The trek to Dah from Beema took us three hours. It was a dangerous trek, as we crossed several craggy peaks, holding on to tiny crevices to haul ourselves up. We could hear gunfire across the Indo-PoK border. My inner line permit was checked at the army post. One wrong step on this arduous trek could have proved fatal.

We reached the ancient juniper trees by noon and hugged the trees to soak in their energy. After spending several hours in this picturesque place, it was time to visit some of the elderly Aryans. We shared a meal that consisted of jo (barley) roti baked in an earthern oven, lettuce leaves, roasted potato, spring onion, boiled cauliflower and wild mint. Women cooked in an open hearth, burning fallen twig collected from the trees in their courtyard. There is a strict taboo against tree felling. The simple meal was fresh and extremely tasty. The following week the trek continued into the villages of Baldes, Samit, Garkun, Darchik and Hanu. The few thousand Brok-pa Aryans have over 5,000 years lived in these hostile terrain at 15,000 ft altitude, subsisting on a vegan diet.

Music and dance are a way of life for them. Both men and women wear colourful costume, decorating their hair with flowers, and are full of joi de vivre. They live in harmony with nature, and are cheerful and stress-free despite living in small rock shelters. They trek long distances.

Almond, apricot and walnut form part of the diet along with endless cups of black tea fortified with barley flour.

The weather in September is pleasantly cold, though temperatures in January can plummet to -20 degrees Celsius. There are an unusually large number of Aryans above 70 years. Many are active even at 90.

Their striking features include blue eyes, aristocratic noses, fair complexion and flawless skin. They appear ethnically distinct from Ladakhis or Kashmiris. They do not marry outsiders and restrict their contact with the outside world, seemingly happy in their isolated existence. Married women braid their hair, which gives them a resemblance to Greeks. One of the women photographed at Dah could have easily been mistaken for a German tourist. She was blonde and had high cheekbones, rotund face and unmistakable German features.

The Aryan tribes believe in prophecies and the recording of dreams. Most of the elderly Aryans meet in the morning at the Juniper grove and discuss their dreams. One of their folk songs sung at the Bononah festival is translated as follows:

In the beginning there was water all over the earth and some of it froze. Dust settled on this patch of ice. Later, a small patch of grass appeared on the frozen patch and, soon, a juniper tree sprouted from the earth. The whole universe was created by Chag (fire), Ser (water) and Yun (earth).

Picture by the author

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: davidzanemason ()
Date: April 06, 2009 12:57PM

Hey deb. Quinn's books are definitely a unique read...and well worth it:

[en.wikipedia.org])

-There really are no documented all vegan groups.....but where are you going with this? Heh...heh.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: debbietook ()
Date: April 06, 2009 12:58PM

Aha, excellent, JGunn!

I see the writer defines vegan as 'no dairy'. Let's just hope there aren't any eggs creeping in there! Assuming not, this is perfect.

And I'm guessing they're not taking supplements :-)

David...looks like we've got one. And, BTW, no secret agenda here :-). Just want to know. Well, actually, OK, maybe there is a bit of an agenda - my inclination is towards raw vegan unsupplemented rather than supplemented, so it's good to find a race of people who are apparently surviving fine without pills, powders, potions or poos..., but didn't want to say that as could open a big can o' worms re B12, D, etc etc...aargh....I have said it....aargh! (if anyone wants to discuss either of these hardy perennials, request it be a separate thread - please?).

(further edit - have just been to that link, David, and the page has been deleted - must have been recently - how mysterious...)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2009 01:06PM by debbietook.

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: Jgunn ()
Date: April 06, 2009 01:05PM

i think the tribe is called brokpa from what i can gather so not sure you havent stumbled on them before in your research .. id be curious as well to know more about them .. longevity etc etc..

let us know what you find out !! smiling smiley this is in wiki on the Brokpa (or aryans as the above article refers to them) [en.wikipedia.org]

The Brokpa or Shins are a small community of Dard people residing in the Dha-Hanu valley about 163 km southwest of Leh in Ladakh.


BrokpaDha and Hanu are two villages situated in the Dhahanu valley where they are found. They are also scattered in other parts of Ladakh. Part of the community are also located in the Deosai plateau just across the LOC in the Baltistan. Like the people of Gilgit, they speak an archaic form of the Shina language unintelligible with other dialects of Shina. They are originally said to have come from Chilas and settled in the area generations ago. They have an Indo-European appearance in contrast to the predominant Tibeto-Mongol inhabitants of most of Ladakh and are considered to be pure Aryan. They are nominally Buddhist, however animist, pagan and Bön rituals still survive.

Minaro is an alternate ethnic name. 'Brokpa' is the name given by the Ladakhi for the people.[1]

The Brokpa's staple is barley, which they grow in terraced fields irrigated by mountain streams. Walnut and apricot trees are also common, as is other fruit. The Brokpa do not eat meat, dairy, or eggs, can therefore be considered a vegan tribe. [2]

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2009 01:08PM by Jgunn.

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: debbietook ()
Date: April 06, 2009 01:10PM

Great stuff, JGunn - very encouraging!

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: Jgunn ()
Date: April 06, 2009 01:13PM

soemthign to consider too debbie , im guessing that like most of the culture *overthere* they use their hands to clean up their backends so i would assume that despite rinsing of the hand thereis probably some slight what we'd call fecal contamination .. so they may exist vegan , no pills, potions or powders but there very well might be a bit of poo (although not as intentional as downright eating it lol)

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: Jgunn ()
Date: April 06, 2009 01:16PM

i really dig these people too for their respect of trees ..hugging them and refusing to cut them down .. nifty !! =D

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: debbietook ()
Date: April 06, 2009 01:22PM

OH. DEAR.

We have a spanner in the works...

'We would have even savoured Brokpa cheese, if brokpa community had participated.'

This is from:
[www.bhutanobserver.bt]

(and the article is talking about Brokpas in Bhutan, Himalayas).

Oh, isn't there always one...groan.

Thinks...perhaps it's made from nuts, but...suspect not...

Hmm...ray of hope - perhaps the vegan people in the article aren't synonymous with Brokpans. I'll see what I can find out.

Ah, still in time to edit again:

'More on the Brokpans from another source:
They do not drink cow’s
milk, nor do they eat or make butter from neither it
nor do they burn cow-dung-the most common
used fuel in Ladakh. Cows and fowls are offensive
to their gods. For ploughing also, they use bull
or Dzo (a hybrid between cow and yak). Only
for crossing yak with cow, they put up with a
cow in the village or near it, but they have as
little as possible to do with them. If a cow dies,
they call people from Achinathang to take the
carcass. There is heaps of Dzo dung in the
villages, but people would not use it for manure or
for fuel. They use goat’s milk in the households.'

How very annoying.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2009 01:34PM by debbietook.

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: sunshine79 ()
Date: April 06, 2009 01:35PM

What I'm wondering is this:

To illustrate with an extreme example, let's say a raw vegan from Florida moves to Greenland and opens up a health food store amongst the Inuit and says "See here, this is your ideal diet, raw vegan. Your fish habit is unhealthy and morally wrong." Wellll..... is it??

Because the Inuit, like the rest of us who are of European, Asian, and Indian descent, descended from the same migration out of Northern Africa. So let's say our common ancestors lived in the proverbial Garden of Eden (science seems to support this) - and let's say for the sake of argument that they were raw vegans (we don't know if they were).

Well, over thousands and thousands of years of migration, they adapted their eating habits to their surroundings. And in so doing, some of their blood types changed, so that even though we all share a common ancestor, we've evolved into different blood types. So if our actual blood can change, then what about our metabolisms, nutritional needs, etc?

Or, if we move back to the tropics, can we all automatically go back to eating our original ancestral diet? Does location determine our dietary needs, or do our metabolisms, which may now have evolved away from our ancestral metabolism? Or is it a combination of location and innate metabolism? What about protein, could some of us actually need more than others?

I think that until these questions are answered, no one can definitively say what the Ideal Diet is, if in fact there is such a thing that would be the same for all humans.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2009 01:40PM by sunshine79.

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: Jgunn ()
Date: April 06, 2009 01:35PM

i think the term brokpa covers a larger group than the initial 1000 or so that the original article covers .. so im not sure what the smaller tribes name is ..if anything smiling smiley

this article talks about *modern* brokpa eating meat krepublishers.com/02-Journals/.../EM-02-2-077-08-099-Bhasin-V-Tt.pdf

so i dont think the term brokpa is specific to the original articles tribe of people it was talking about smiling smiley

keep on digging !!

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: Utopian Life ()
Date: April 06, 2009 01:42PM

Who said they were looking for an ideal diet, Sunshine?

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: sunshine79 ()
Date: April 06, 2009 01:54PM

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Who said they were looking for an ideal diet,
> Sunshine?


Aren't we all?

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: Jgunn ()
Date: April 06, 2009 01:57PM

can someone anyone answer me this ? why on earth did the inuit decide to settle in sucha harsh environment ? is there some documentation somewhere on this? its one of those questions burning in my mind for years smiling smiley

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: debbietook ()
Date: April 06, 2009 02:07PM

Sunshine79, I really didn't start this thread to discuss the ideal diet, whatever that might be. If we start getting into those conversations, the thread could end up with 100+ replies (not to mention various 'lively disagreement'), none of which relate to my original question. :-) :-) :-) And then people will forget what the thread's about, and...and...we've all seen it happen...

I asked if anyone knew of a race/tribe of people who are 100% vegan, and NOT 'well, yes, all except the odd bit of goat's cheese'.

Nothing more. Nothing less. :-)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2009 02:12PM by debbietook.

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: sunshine79 ()
Date: April 06, 2009 02:16PM

When I read the original post I started thinking, ok maybe in India, since alot of Indians are vegetarian, and maybe there are also vegans in India? And if Indians can be vegan, can that be extrapolated to the rest of us? Or since the migration to India was the first migration, then are some of us now too far removed from our ancestral diet (such as the Inuit), that the presence of a vegan society in say, India, wouldn't hold meaning for the rest of us.... or would it??

That was my line of reasoning.

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: sunshine79 ()
Date: April 06, 2009 02:22PM

Jgunn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> can someone anyone answer me this ? why on earth
> did the inuit decide to settle in sucha harsh
> environment ? is there some documentation
> somewhere on this? its one of those questions
> burning in my mind for years smiling smiley


haha, yeah I know what you mean. But I think it happened gradually, with the migration going further and further north, and as it happened people developed features that helped them in cold weather, such as an extra layer of fat over their eyelids (i.e., Asian eyes), and shorter, thicker torsos which enabled better retention of body heat.

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: debbietook ()
Date: April 06, 2009 03:46PM

I see, Sunshine 79 - thanks for explaining. But, personally, as long as they're homo sapiens, they're relevant for me :-)

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: davidzanemason ()
Date: April 06, 2009 09:05PM

You can try this link:

Ishmael_(novel)

Or just type Ishmael into Wikipedia. I like the book so much....it's one of those ones I just pass out for free anytime I can get some one interested....along with The Prophet...heh..heh. I'll send you a copy for nuthin if you like! smiling smiley

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2009 09:17PM by Bryan.

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: April 06, 2009 11:20PM

This is the first time in history that it is safe to eat vegan! In the past, we couldn't do it because there were no B-12 supplements. People who tried to eat vegan would become sick because of B-12 deficiency. Also, in the past vegans didn't have easy access to important foods like flax seeds, hemp seeds, & coconut oil.

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: debbietook ()
Date: April 07, 2009 01:12AM

David, I'd appreciate that (though I'm in UK...)

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: debbietook ()
Date: April 07, 2009 01:46AM

Supergreens, that is your opinion. Dr Doug Graham has thrived on a raw vegan diet with no B12 supplements for 12 years now. And so have many others, eg my understanding is that Storm and Jinjee Talifero and their children are unsupplemented and have no dairy or eggs.

So, if any one has any information pertaining to my original question, please contribute.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2009 01:50AM by debbietook.

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: pakd4fun ()
Date: April 07, 2009 12:00PM

But the Taliferos do consume honey. Does that count? Maybe not since you seem to be interested in B12.

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: debbietook ()
Date: April 07, 2009 12:26PM

Yes they do, so not vegan. But, yes, you guessed right :-)

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: April 08, 2009 01:39AM

Hi debbietook,

Yes, that is my opinion.

Almost every vegan must eat some type of B-12 supplement, whether it comes from a supplement bottle or nutritional yeast.

I heard that there are about 10% of people in the raw vegan community who do not need to eat B-12 supplements.

Cooked vegans get their B-12 in foods such as boxes of soy milk, rice milk, or cereal that have B-12 added to it.

For example, most cooked vegans eat alot of Rice Dream milk, and one cup contains 25% RDA of B-12.

Two of my good friends followed Doug Graham's advice and ate 100% raw vegan with no B-12 supplements.

After 2 years, they were both feeling sick and tired all the time. One of them could barely get out of bed and finally went to the hospital. Turns out the only thing wrong was a B-12 deficiency. After a few B-12 shots, he was back to normal energy levels. The experience scared him so much that he went back to eating meat.

Some people don't need B-12, but most people do! The only way to know for sure is to have a blood test done. I would like to have my blood tested but it is pretty expensive, maybe around $200 or more. It is easier to buy a $10 bottle of B-12!

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Re: Any cultures truly, verifiably, 100% vegan?
Posted by: debbietook ()
Date: April 08, 2009 02:46AM

Supergreens, the reason I explained (as briefly as I would) is that I really would prefer it if this thread could not turn into a debate on B12. It's a contentious area, and has been the subject of SO many threads on here and other forums. I already have a fat file full of the arguments for and against supplementing with B12, and I'm well aware where cooked vegans may be getting their B12.

I'm really hoping replies can stick to answering my original question, because if it digresses into a general discussion about B12, it will rapidly turn into a 100+ replier - seen this happen SO many times! Then I'll feel duty-bound to check it regularly, but will be searching probably fruitlessly for replies to my original question. And what will then happen, in about one hundred replies from now, someone will actually supply me with the information I requested, but I won't notice it!

I'm not saying you're wrong. You could be right. I just want to information-gather as outlined in the post, rather than debate the subject of B12.

Hope you'll understand!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2009 02:51AM by debbietook.

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