I was thinking about this today and I am very sincere in asking this so please don't get all foaming at the mouth.

If veganism is at least as good, if not superior, to a vegetarian or omnivore's diet, then why do I keep reading about how vegans must supplement? A viable diet should not require the need for pills to make it okay, according to my logic and intuition. So any diet that is purported to be deficient in some nutrients is a diet that I would be wary to stay on for long periods of time. It may have to do with not eating the same variety as a vegetarian who occasionally consumes eggs or dairy.

As I said, I am just curious because I would like to go vegan and stay there. I have been vegan (or BEEgan, to be exact) but that is one thing that has always made me reluctant to continue with it.

The only thing vegans may need to supplement with is B12, but that being said a lot of consumers of animal products must supplement as well. They may not need to, either. According to Brian Clement, not only are the majority of people deficient in B12, but meat eaters generally have LOWER levels than plant eaters. Makes sense considering B12 is a soil-based organism and when you cook food (like meat), you destroy it. That being said, various vegan foods such as nori and chlorella contain useable B12.

everything is mooving. The plants at the supermarket have been man devised. For example, corn has been devised to be sweet (at the xpense of nutrients). Many apples have been made sweet (sprayed and with little nutrients). All for the saling point of view. Vegetables have been favored to those that sell the most. In the same way, the society has been molded to support western cultural diets (distant from the equator). Once you get away from the equator, food is scarce and people have to adapt and go for the animals. The fact that people can live a healthy live with only eating plants is enough for me. I see other animals at the same level as me and I don't won't to murder them. Would you eat your neigtbor? The end of the industrialized society is comming. There are limited things/animals to exploit. Garbage is piling up and small pieces of plastic cover the oceans. Eating animals is perpetuating damaging cultural that is destroying the Earth and also ignoring the cruelty towards the rest of the animals that share the planet. At some point people have to see the devastating effect of humanity. We are murderers.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2014 04:17PM by Panchito.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is alot more than Vitamin B12 which isn't
> provided on an all plant based vegan diet, i can
> think of various nutrients which either aren't
> provided at all or are in low amounts.
>
> Vitamin D comes to mind, as does pre-formed
> Vitamin A and other fatty acids such as EPA/DHA.
> Then there are various conditionally essential
> amino acids not provided on a vegan diet such as
> taurine.
>
> Ive been saying this even when i was vegan, no
> healthy diet should be reliant on nutritional
> supplements in order to be nutritionally complete.
> Even as a vegan this never resonated with me.
>
> Brian Clement is massively mistaken here on the
> b12 issue. If he had done the research he would
> see 99% of the studies all come to the same
> conclusion, which is vegans consistently show to
> have the lowest B12 levels out of each groups.
>


Vegans who live in a warm climate can get D3 from the sun. Foods like hemp seeds, walnuts, flax seeds, and chia greens are extremely rich in omega-3's and the body can convert ALA/EPA into DHA. I recently found out that goji berries contain taurine, as does chlorella (and likely many more that I'm just unaware of), but as pointed out previously our bodies also produce taurine. Also, chlorella and nori contain B12. But how many vegans do you think actually consume these foods? I don't think very many.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2014 11:57PM by Prana.

?.....Vitamin D comes to mind, as does pre-formed Vitamin A and other fatty acids such as EPA/DHA. Then there are various conditionally essential amino acids not provided on a vegan diet such as taurine. 

u could say this a million times (I think u have already)

and it still wont be true.

ha ha. I love it. All that sick people at the gym with lots of problems are not vegan. Yet, they warn other people about veganism. What a joke. Where I go, nobody swimms as much as I do or do the ellyptical bicycle as much as I do. If they were to try half of what I do, they would come out semi collapsing (even the most fit ones), whereas I come out as better than new. So yeah, going vegan is bad for your health ha ha.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2014 04:41PM by Panchito.

As far as B12, I am skeptical about the soil connection. Some raw fooders have gone as far as to suggest that we should eat unwashed produce to get this B12. I have heard that we make it in our guts. It would stand to reason that if animal products contain it (and that they are not getting it from consuming other animals) that it is possible for us to produce it the same way we produce certain amino acids. But gut health may be compromised in a good portion of people and THIS is why there is a deficiency!

I have heard contradictory evidence regarding sea veggies and B12 (analogs). Some say they are bio-available and some say no.

I sometimes drink soymilk fortified with B12. It stores for long periods in the body, too. But again, fortification seems counter-intuitive.

As for Vitamin A and D, I am content with betacarotene for A and the Sun for D. I just am not going to take isolated pills for this. Remember that dairy milk is also fortified with D! I don't know if A is present in butter or not.

Hey, Banana Who. For me, I like to take a sublingual methylcobalamin as it's the best absorbed. Knowing what I know now and had I not be in a position to decide not to harm animals anymore/decided to continue to consume animal products, I think I'd still choose a sublingual form as opposed to taking my chances with 1) intake and 2) absorption. But it's a good question. My intuition and your intuition may drive us in different directions, and that's okay. It's all right for two people to disagree without arguing for 10 pages, as we have seen lately on this forum. teeehehe

Panchito, your posts in this thread are great and thank you for writing them

I reached a stage in my life when I can't even think of eating animals as an option. To me, this doesn't even exist in my mind and I can't see animals as any less than my friends and as beings who deserve to live as much as I do.

Even if I had to eat animals again in order to survive, I would never put my health first and kill them so I could live.

Being vegan for me is now another step forward and I do not wish to go back. Being vegan for me is now so much more than dietary choices. It is something that goes far beyond this. It is something that lives inside me and will never go away. It is about being and living vegan - with love, compassion and understanding for my friends the animals.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Raw vegan for life. Vegan for the animals. Raw for my health.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey, Banana Who. For me, I like to take a
> sublingual methylcobalamin as it's the best
> absorbed. Knowing what I know now and had I not
> be in a position to decide not to harm animals
> anymore/decided to continue to consume animal
> products, I think I'd still choose a sublingual
> form as opposed to taking my chances with 1)
> intake and 2) absorption. But it's a good
> question. My intuition and your intuition may
> drive us in different directions, and that's okay.
> It's all right for two people to disagree without
> arguing for 10 pages, as we have seen lately on
> this forum. teeehehe

Thank you! I guess I am a bit concerned/confused because Matt Monarch did a recent video where he announced he was dumping a former product--B12 patch--calling it "garbage" and that he had this new patch that was sooo awesome. I can't wrap my head around that. How can someone sell something (I assume for years) and suddenly decide that it sucks and something else is amazing? So it makes me wonder if ANYTHING really works in the first place!

Ela2013 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Panchito, your posts in this thread are great and
> thank you for writing them
>
> I reached a stage in my life when I can't even
> think of eating animals as an option. To me, this
> doesn't even exist in my mind and I can't see
> animals as any less than my friends and as beings
> who deserve to live as much as I do.
>
> Even if I had to eat animals again in order to
> survive, I would never put my health first and
> kill them so I could live.
>
> Being vegan for me is now another step forward and
> I do not wish to go back. Being vegan for me is
> now so much more than dietary choices. It is
> something that goes far beyond this. It is
> something that lives inside me and will never go
> away. It is about being and living vegan - with
> love, compassion and understanding for my friends
> the animals.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~


Ela, without going too far into this area, what about eating animal PRODUCTS but not animal flesh? I would never eat meat again--ever. But I am not sure about eating vegan and then using supplements--that in itself suggests that the vegan diet is inadequate in some way. I am NOT saying it is! Just asking the question...

[www.huffingtonpost.co.uk]

This guy looks so troubled.

Banana who, to me eating animal products equals killing animals.
If you search on the internet how the animal products are made, how the animal ingredients are obtained, you will see the cruelty that all these actions involve.
When I say I am vegan, I do not refer only to animal flesh. I extend being vegan also to not eating/using ANYTHING that has been made from animals. So not only I don't eat animal flesh, but I also don't eat milk, cheese, eggs, honey and such. And I don't use anything made of leather, silk, wool, down or the like. And nothing tested on animals either.
Right now I'm not using any supplements, I'm sure I still have plenty of B12 from almost 34 years of eating animals.
And I think that there is no such thing as a perfect diet either, but we must do the best we can using the best food - and for me this is a raw vegan diet.

Powerlifter, I have been vegan for a year and a half and I wish I were vegan for my whole life, I regret so much that I didn't take this step a long time ago.
You are right in asking these questions, but I know that I could never eat in any other way than vegan and not even a matter of my own health could change that. I am also aware of the gravity of these health issues, but it's like something beyond me stopping me from ever eating vegetarian or omnivour or any other way than vegan. Maybe it sounds weird but it's how I feel.
I think that once I notice my B12 and/or Vitamin D levels are low, I will act accordingly. But never eating animal flesh/products again.
And I put my health in God's hands and I trust that He will never let me fail.

Thank you both for sharing your thoughts, I like having these great conversations

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Raw vegan for life. Vegan for the animals. Raw for my health.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Sproutarian seems
> to be the new raw diet.

I highly doubt it. People will just add more sprouts to their diet, IMO. I eat around 4 oz of sprouts a day which, IMO, is the most most people will want to deal with - for long.

Powerlifter, thank you for your post and concern, you do mean well. You are right, the raw food movement is kinda confusing these days. That's why I don't follow anyone blindly. I just take what I think it's best from everyone, including from you guys here on this forum (and I thank you all for your input all the time, it helps me a lot). I really like to follow my instincts and listen to my body, and act accordingly. I will never neglect my health, I will never do something if I see it doesn't do me good, but I will never go back to anything that has to do with animals. But I will make sure I will find another way to keep my health at a good level, something that doesn't involve cruelty in any way. So you see, to me animal wellbeing is the main reason, I'm not even thinking of animal products making me sick.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Raw vegan for life. Vegan for the animals. Raw for my health.

B12 is from the soil, animals get their B12 from foods grown in soil, most humans don't have the ability to create their own B12 anymore, likely from previous poor habits and depleted soil. I choose to get my B12 from chlorella and a soil-based supplement instead of "toxifying" my body by consuming animal products. If some people can thrive on a vegan diet, why can't everyone? Some humans don't require animal products to thrive, that's ludicrous.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2014 10:26PM by jtprindl.

Animals used/grown for food do NOT get their B12 from the soil; it's supplemented in their feed. Read any package of animal feed - google it.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Animals used/grown for food do NOT get their B12
> from the soil; it's supplemented in their feed.
> Read any package of animal feed - google it.


I was referring to animals in general out in nature, but that would be even worse for meat eaters. Technically, the B12 they are getting would still be from supplements then, only instead of taking the supplement themselves they are eating the animal which took it to acquire B12. Lol your thoughts, powerlifter?

Ela2013 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Powerlifter, thank you for your post and concern,
> you do mean well. You are right, the raw food
> movement is kinda confusing these days. That's why
> I don't follow anyone blindly. I just take what I
> think it's best from everyone, including from you
> guys here on this forum (and I thank you all for
> your input all the time, it helps me a lot). I
> really like to follow my instincts and listen to
> my body, and act accordingly. I will never neglect
> my health, I will never do something if I see it
> doesn't do me good, but I will never go back to
> anything that has to do with animals. But I will
> make sure I will find another way to keep my
> health at a good level, something that doesn't
> involve cruelty in any way. So you see, to me
> animal wellbeing is the main reason, I'm not even
> thinking of animal products making me sick.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~
Ela, this woman is the only one I totally believe is making 811 raw vegan work for her and who has been very successful at that for many years. I have known her from another site and as soon as I found out yesterday that she had started her own youtube channel I thought of you. She has always had a lot of very good information and recipes...

[www.youtube.com]

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ela2013 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Powerlifter, thank you for your post and
> concern,
> > you do mean well. You are right, the raw food
> > movement is kinda confusing these days. That's
> why
> > I don't follow anyone blindly. I just take what
> I
> > think it's best from everyone, including from
> you
> > guys here on this forum (and I thank you all
> for
> > your input all the time, it helps me a lot). I
> > really like to follow my instincts and listen
> to
> > my body, and act accordingly. I will never
> neglect
> > my health, I will never do something if I see
> it
> > doesn't do me good, but I will never go back to
> > anything that has to do with animals. But I
> will
> > make sure I will find another way to keep my
> > health at a good level, something that doesn't
> > involve cruelty in any way. So you see, to me
> > animal wellbeing is the main reason, I'm not
> even
> > thinking of animal products making me sick.
> >
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> > ~~~~~~~~
> Ela, this woman is the only one I totally
> believe is making 811 raw vegan work for her and
> who has been very successful at that for many
> years. I have known her from another site and as
> soon as I found out yesterday that she had started
> her own youtube channel I thought of you. She has
> always had a lot of very good information and
> recipes...
>
> [www.youtube.com]


On B12...

[www.youtube.com]

* (I don't agree with her on the rest of what she says on this video but I agree on what she says about B12.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2014 02:27AM by SueZ.

Yeah raw fruits and vegetables are definitely not all you need.

Raw plants plus b12 works fine.

Strict veganism "isn't possible" ? ha! Tell that to all of us long-term vegans on the board!

"Plenty of B12 supplementing vegans" - I'm betting you have like 2-5 examples of people? Wow, that's A LOT OF PEOPLE! lol

"So many vegans become emaciated, gaunt, malnourished" - are these the 2-5 you were thinking of earlier who didn't eat enough? Yeah, I don't know any omnivores this happened to.....lmao

I love the nonspecific language, as usual, used here, which is one of the reasons for my taking a break from this board: the constant anti-vegan rhetoric with scare tactics and words such as "many" "plenty" "some" "most of" - then when pried further, we find out there's like 1 example from an internet personality. It's like the Lierre Keith thing....she was "vegan" for 20 years and "binged on eggs and dairy all the time" - guess she wasn't vegan and her problems aren't attributable as such.

Just in case Powerlifer's post is edited further, cut and paste (without the advertisement)


Well we know thats not true because vitamin B12 is found naturally in these foods, for example sardines contain over 100% of the RDA of bio-available vitamin B12 and there caught straight from the sea, much like other B12 containing shellfish.

Not to mention that many animals aren't fed any supplemented feed to begin with such as grass-fed. Yet these animal foods are great sources of vitamin B12. Animals are good at concentrating B12 from bacteria, which is what makes them important dietary sources of this nutrient.

At the end of the day, if the vegan diet was the most natural diet in the world as its promoted to be, how would we have lived before vitamin B12 supplements came along ? This is why there is no recorded vegan cultures ever discovered, strict veganism just simply isn't possible. If vitamin B12 supplements were banned for over-the counter/non prescription sale for any reason the day from tomorrow, then veganism would be over as an experiment.

Vitamin B12 isn't the only potential issue with the vegan diet, it just happens to be one of the most common and visible because deficiency is easy to test for. Its not so easy to test for the likes of iodine deficiency, copper/zinc imbalances or certain amino acids being low.

You see plenty of B12 supplementing vegans who fail in the long term. Often they can't pinpoint what is missing from there diet and making them ill. We still don't know everything about nutrition at the end of the day, why do so many vegans become emaciated, gaunt, malnourished despite eating lots of very nutrient rich plant foods ? Is it a lack of zinc ?, a lack of overall variety etc ?.

Even plant foods + b12 supplementation, your still left wide open to copper/zinc issues which may not be rectified without a zinc supplement to correct proper ratios, vitamin D deficiency, possibly low vitamin A, low pre-formed omega-3 fatty acids(epa/dha), low taurine, certain other amino acids being low such as methionine. Many woman are prone to the low iron side of the vegan diet because they lose iron during their cycle.

For those new to the vegan diet, then the member TSM's website has a good write up, with studies referenced on these typical vegan diet problems.

The omega-3, copper/zinc, vitamin b12, vitamin D issues etc. Funny how the so called vegan experts never talk about these issues, its all who cares if you get b12 deficient just supplement, your super intake of plant foods and vegan diet label will protect you. Here look at some research on the benefits of a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet and pretend that it will also relate to being vegan lol.

Only when your suffering from increased homocysteine and eventually heart disease from b12 deficiency you won't be saying that.

[www.thesproutarian.com]



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2014 11:04AM by powerlifter.

the funny thing is that non vegan people spend a lot of money on supplements. Then thye look like @#$%& (ageing, disease, etc). Then they accuse vegans of eating supplements. Then they are envious and try to sink vegans to their rotten level of health and reaise all type of alarms. They are so loaded with rotten stuff that the brain becomes a black mold ball. Look at how bad being non vegan can be:

www.nutritionfacts.org

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For those new to the vegan diet, then the member
> TSM's website has a good write up, with studies
> referenced on these typical vegan diet problems.
>
> The omega-3, copper/zinc, vitamin b12, vitamin D
> issues etc. Funny how the so called vegan experts
> never talk about these issues, its all who cares
> if you get b12 deficient just supplement, your
> super intake of plant foods and vegan diet label
> will protect you. Here look at some research on
> the benefits of a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet and
> pretend that it will also relate to being vegan
> lol.
>
> Only when your suffering from increased
> homocysteine and eventually heart disease from b12
> deficiency you won't be saying that.
>
> [www.thesproutarian.com]
> m

Of the two people in my family that have gluten related digestive problems, (which are supposed to make getting enough B12 even more difficult), only one is low in B12 and he takes supplements, is extremely careful to eat no gluten, exercises way more than I do, is in very good shape, and eats meat every day. I, on the other hand, don't take supplements, haven't eaten meat in many years, have been raw vegan now for over two years, and have been vegetarian since I was in 6th grade. My B12 is not only fine it is GOOD at almost 500. I am aiming for 550 on this year's test, which is the average in Japan, by eating a lot more nori which has REAL BIOAVAILABLE
B12 and not analogue B12 in it.


YOU ARE WRONG, POWERLIFTER. The shortcomings you speak of are just usually tested for more often in vegans. These shortcomings are the shortcomings of everyone who eats in the modern flawed food chain. The soils have been killed and so have huge areas of water covered lands.

*edited for typos only



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2014 01:30PM by SueZ.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> YOU ARE WRONG, POWERLIFTER. The shortcomings
> you speak of are just usually tested for more
> often in vegans. These shortcomings are the
> shortcomings of everyone who eats in the modern
> flawed food chain. The soils have been killed and
> so have huge areas of water covered lands.
>
> *edited for typos only

Thats not true though either because the amount of research in Vegans is very low and raw vegan research is few and far between. If more research was available on veganism and strict raw vegan diets id suspect many of you guys wouldn't like the findings, if current vegan research is anything to go by. Compared to vegetarianism which has much more science as to the long term safety of such diet and possible health benefits.

I don't disagree that these short-comings are applicable to other diets and even ones that include animal foods. Consuming these foods also comes with their own contraindications, consume too much and there is possible increased risks of certain cancers and maybe even heart disease. Just that there are significantly less potential problems when you are eating a wide range of food groups and foods which actually contain these nutrients to being with. Remove full food groups in the diet and then several deficiencies can rear there head.

No different from the SAD meat eater who doesn't include any plant foods. These people raise the risk of deficiencies in nutrients such as Vitamin C, various minerals and obviously miss out on the antioxidant/phyto-chemical protection these foods offer. Without plant food intake these peoples diets are also notoriously low in fiber, whilst being excessively high in meat and often low fiber, high sugar refined white grains by comparison. These people are no different in that they all have a vitamin C supplement in their cupboards but choose to eat no plant foods which naturally contains this nutrient.

Its not about bias, its about the truth and no these vegan pitfalls don't apply to the same severity or extent as a diet which would include these animal foods and thus providing nutrients of vitamin b12, vitamin D, iodine, zinc, iron etc. Many of these nutrients are completely missing from a vegan diet and/or not provided in sufficient quantities on a raw diet.



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2014 01:50PM by powerlifter.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Its not about bias, its about the truth and no
> these vegan pitfalls don't apply to the same
> severity as a diet which would include these
> animal foods and thus providing nutrients of
> vitamin b12, vitamin D, zinc, iron etc. Many of
> these nutrients are completely missing from a
> vegan diet and/or not provided in sufficient
> quantities on a raw diet.


Yes it is bias because, in truth, while turning to animal foods makes eating less trouble free in some regards you open up a Pandora's box full of even worse problems by eating animals.

Come on. You know that is the truth even though you have decided those little details are not worth being included to your warnings to people.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Thats not being true or honest though either,
> because the studies on these foods show that its
> only excessive intake of these foods which cause
> the problems.

FALSE

one egg a week rises type 2 diabetes risk by 76% [www.rawfoodsupport.com]

ouch. video of cancer growth when eating small amounts of meat: [www.rawfoodsupport.com]

tumors use dietary meat to grow: [www.rawfoodsupport.com]

cooked muscle is a carcinogen: [www.rawfoodsupport.com]

trojan horse: how animal products in humans cause disease: [www.rawfoodsupport.com]

eating meat promotes the cancer hormone IGF-1 [www.rawfoodsupport.com]

Mercury in fish and the brain damage (a little tuna?): [www.rawfoodsupport.com]

cooked meat carcinogens (heterocyclic amines): [www.rawfoodsupport.com]

link between meat and bladder infection : [www.rawfoodsupport.com]

video: animal protein diets and tumor growth. Cancer: www.rawfoodsupport.com/read.php?2,229544,229544

canker sores caused by milk: www.rawfoodsupport.com/read.php?12,238719,238719

milk is a carcinogen: www.rawfoodsupport.com/read.php?12,232233,232233

Pregnant-cow milk is a potent carcinogen : www.rawfoodsupport.com/read.php?9,232231,232231

milk and acne: www.rawfoodsupport.com/read.php?12,236963,236963



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2014 02:12PM by Panchito.